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  • Smoosh.2718Smoosh.2718 Member ✭✭✭

    After thinking about the EoD trailer, this might be a stab in the dark but also might be correct, the mysterious voice we hear in the trailer talking to Kuunavang could actually be Dwayna. The magic in the air is a blue/white colour which looks like it could relate to her.
    Also being that the Tyrian gods left the world to find a new world for the faithful to live in... If this is correct then this could be the first steps of guild wars moving into a new world.

    "Oloko, a priest of Kormir, received a vision from Kormir in which it was revealed to him that the remaining gods left in search of a new world without threats like the Elder Dragons that they could prepare for their faithful. "
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods

    This however also could be far off and could actually just be a new dragon talking that we havent met yet.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Smoosh.2718 said:
    After thinking about the EoD trailer, this might be a stab in the dark but also might be correct, the mysterious voice we hear in the trailer talking to Kuunavang could actually be Dwayna. The magic in the air is a blue/white colour which looks like it could relate to her.
    Also being that the Tyrian gods left the world to find a new world for the faithful to live in... If this is correct then this could be the first steps of guild wars moving into a new world.

    "Oloko, a priest of Kormir, received a vision from Kormir in which it was revealed to him that the remaining gods left in search of a new world without threats like the Elder Dragons that they could prepare for their faithful. "
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods

    This however also could be far off and could actually just be a new dragon talking that we havent met yet.

    If it's any of the gods it would be Lyssa. Dwayna always seemed like the leader of the group so I imagine she would have been the first to leave. I could see them reentering the picture after this expansion if the cycle of the elder dragons is resolved, but in terms of the color scheme I think it's just mean to be bright and colorful.

    The purple fog is definitely Miasma, imo. Going back and looking at some of the GW1 areas there isn't any doubt it's implying that. Also, the teaser, more and more, feels like a vision looking into the past.

    The new fractal will probably give a lot more to speculate on. In terms of the other floating lights or "magic in the air", especially the opening part where we're zooming through Cantha, to me it looks most like Aurene. At certain points it also has specs of multiple other colors. I think this is just us seeing through her perspective flying through at light speed.

    If it is modern day it doesn't really change much. I'm assuming it's confirmed the dragon at the end is Kunavang, so this could be a vision Aurene witnesses in which Kunavang is somehow summoning Aurene in the vision and glancing up at the camera and focusing in could be more of sign of Kunavang acknowledging Aurene's presence while the mysterious voice is just off in the background somewhere, or a memory/conversation Kunavang is sharing with her letting her know that she needs our help. I really think the gods angle is going to take a break, at least for the expansion's part of the story and then potentially pick back up in the living season.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wait ... !?
    Kralkatorrik's mother is alive ?

  • Honestly with this expansion im just hoping that when channeling shiro something new would happen

  • @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Wait ... !?
    Kralkatorrik's mother is alive ?

    There's no indication of such.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Why bring in the gods in an expansion about dragons, and titled about dragons?

    Why not? I don't see why that couldn't be the case. Path of fire had gods and dragons. If it fits the story, why not? Plus, this could possibly be last expansion.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Wait ... !?
    Kralkatorrik's mother is alive ?

    Nothing indicates she is.

    @serialkicker.5274 said:
    Plus, this could possibly be last expansion.

    I could very easily see this being the case.

    We have already killed 3 Elder Dragons, and with the way IBS is going we are likely to bring down number 4 before the expansion drops. Either the expansion itself, or the expansion + Canthan LW season will deal with Bubbles, leaving only Primordus to deal with. And that doesn't really require an expansion, that could just be done in another LW season.

    The vast majority of the major plot threads the game has ever set up are resolved by now. With only a few smaller ones left. And Cantha is the last major area we don't have represented in GW2 yet.

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2020

    The mystery voice definitely sounds female to me but whether they'll be referred as such or "them" or even "he" remains to be seen. It seems like the VA might be Sumalee Montano (VA for Marjory and Ember) who often uses a deeper register in certain roles. Kuunavang's voice is harder to pinpoint, but one thing is interesting: Kuunavang seems to use a somewhat stereotypic Chinese accent with those slurring consonants while the mystery entity speaks with an American accent. This suggests that the either the mystery entity lived abroad before coming in contact with Kuunie (assuming the mystery entity was tied to Shiny who theoretically could fit given Shiny's care for its mortal caretaker Goren before Goren passed away), or it could be some non-dragon entity.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’ve always hoped for a a fractal where you get to play as a Risen and would hear Zhaitan’s voice as well as potentially show Zhaitan again. Would be a good way of opening up Zhaitan posthumous.

    I'd take one more step and actually have us enter the Mists to chat with Zhaitan's (and potentially Mordremoth's) ghosts to seek their counsel despite the dangers associated with such a venture (think about Aang meeting the antagonistic Koh the Face Stealer to get crucial knowledge about spirits in Avatar the Last Airbender).

    This, however, requires the devs to have thought of a few cosmological things:

    1) What happens to the souls of Elder Dragons who don't have anyone at ground zero consuming their energy like Aurene did with Kralkatorrik? As Zhaitan and Mordremoth were able to "explode" without hindrance, did their souls merge into the ley lines due to their ties to the All, or did their spirits enter the Mists while their physical shells perished?

    If they did enter the Mists, did they consider their deaths traumatic or were they at peace with it (Kralkatorrik claims that Elder Dragons fear nothing, not even death, but does this apply to all Elder Dragons?) as only those who die sudden and traumatic deaths end up in the Domain of the Lost where they're judged and sent onward whereas those who die any other deaths automatically go to their designated afterlives (for example, norn are confirmed to have a different afterlife than humans in "The Departing" given the dialogue between Nicholas and Yngvild, so theoretically dragons should have their own afterlife as well)?

    2) Are Elder Dragons released from Torment after they die (and if their souls do enter the Mists rather than being absorbed into the ley lines or whatever)? If so, we could theoretically be chatting with Torment-less Zhaity and Mordy, and maybe they'd actually be somewhat reasonable (if still arrogant) chat partners now that there's no Torment-based megalomania and madness partly driving their actions (depending on in what form their Torment manifested as; Tom Abernathy has suggested that each dragon may have its own unique form of Torment, but we've yet to learn anything beyond what little was shown about Kralkatorrik's Torment). Just imagine having a calm chat with Mordy as a sylvari! Heck, if they want to go wild, they could even have Trahearne and Mordy's souls merge due to the ending of HoT and have Trahearne be Mordy's Voice in the Mists where his voice is still his own but Mordy can also speak through him at times. It would be a bittersweet but fascinating reunion and give Trahearne more to do (beyond potentially becoming one of Glint's generals alongside Gwen in the Mist Wardens...but this depends on if his soul entered the Mists or if it was absorbed into the ley line depending on what happens to Elder Dragon souls).

    I'd love this spiritual meeting in the Mists or in whatever afterlife dragons have for its narrative potential. We would get to hear Nolan North ham it up as Mordy one last time in a role he enjoyed almost as much as Joko, while we'd finally hear Zhaity's voice for the first time (beyond the roars from the personal story) and reveal if it would have a female voice actor or not. And it just makes sense that out of all the dragons, the one Elder Dragon we confront in the afterlife would be the shadowy soul of the Elder Dragon of Death and Shadow.

    It might even lead to a potential Zhaitan fight redux if we're lucky. There already are quite a few Zhaitan fight elements in Frost Citadel Claw of Jormag fight: we destroy the pillar it clings to and shoot it down with cannons, then jump down to finish the wounded Claw; very similar to what the initially planned Zhaitan fight likely would've been given the clues. Given the budget for episodes, they could easily reuse the Frost Citadel Claw rigging and mechanics and implement those to the Zhaitan 2.0 fight in the Mists just like they reused raid boss rigging for Kralkatorrik's Torment, and players would be happy to beat Zhaitan's fractured face at long last rather than relying on cannons alone. Maybe we could take both bites at once: not only would we get the fight, but we also get a potential "enemy mine" scenario where we get information from Zhaity before or after the battle. :)

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Wait ... !?
    Kralkatorrik's mother is alive ?

    Nothing indicates she is.

    @serialkicker.5274 said:
    Plus, this could possibly be last expansion.

    I could very easily see this being the case.

    We have already killed 3 Elder Dragons, and with the way IBS is going we are likely to bring down number 4 before the expansion drops. Either the expansion itself, or the expansion + Canthan LW season will deal with Bubbles, leaving only Primordus to deal with. And that doesn't really require an expansion, that could just be done in another LW season.

    The vast majority of the major plot threads the game has ever set up are resolved by now. With only a few smaller ones left. And Cantha is the last major area we don't have represented in GW2 yet.

    The devs have gone out of their way to say that they have plenty of story left to tell. So, I see no reason as to why there wouldn't be any room for more story/another expansion. Especially dealing with the gods.

    After all, what we see on the in-game map is a tiny portion of the entire planet according to the Globe of Whispers. If it's profitable, they'll come up with something.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:
    The devs have gone out of their way to say that they have plenty of story left to tell. So, I see no reason as to why there wouldn't be any room for more story/another expansion. Especially dealing with the gods.

    After all, what we see on the in-game map is a tiny portion of the entire planet according to the Globe of Whispers. If it's profitable, they'll come up with something.

    The said EoD isn't the end of GW2's narrative, and that they have stories for after that.

    At the rate the game moves, we are easily looking at two more living world seasons after EoD, before we finish the dragon plot. Which, if they are anything like IBS, is another 4 more years of narratives after IBS/EoD. At the rate its going, IBS still has a year left in it. Giving us 5 more years of narratives, and the game being 13 years old by the time we are done with this.

    Narratively, the game has wrapped up, or is working wrapping up, pretty much every major plot its introduced

    Humanity(Kryta)

    • The centaurs have been defeated, and pushed out of Kryta
    • The bandits leaders have been killed
    • The White Mantle has been rooted out, and competently destroyed

    Sylvari

    • The mystery behind their origin and immunity to dragon corruption has been discovered
    • The Pale Tree has been put on the path to recovery
    • The Nightmare court has had all of its leadership destroyed, and its numbers decimated

    Charr

    • Kralkatorrik is dead, and the branded are being moped up
    • Bangar has been outed, and the Charr civil war is over
    • The Flame Legion has been brought back into Charr society under the leadership of Efram
    • The Charr are now on a path to fix many of the massive social problems that have plagued them for centuries

    Norn

    • Braham has cracked the tooth, setting into motion the prophecy
    • We have discovered what happened to the lost Spirits of the Wild, including the truth behind Owl
    • We learned the truth behind Asgeir's fight with Jormag
    • Jahvi was able to get revenge on Drakkar for what it did to her family

    Humanity(Elona)

    • Palawa Joko is dead, and his empire collapsed
    • The Sunspear Order has been reformed
    • The various groups in Elona have formed a coalition government to move Elona into a post-Joko future together.

    Like, there is the Cantha stuff(EoD and its associated living world), and the Asura stuff(Primordus season after EoD and its LW), and then GW2 will be pretty much out of the major narrative hooks that have permeated the game since the beginning. There is a few other things like the Wizard Tower(a raid), getting rid of the Ghosts of Ascalon, and what happened the Mylack, but those are things that aren't full narratives themselves, those are plot points inside actual narratives(like having us find Malyck and his tree in the northern Maguuma Wastes after we go up there because Primordus does something). And I would be legit surprised if the god plot doesn't get woven into, and wrapped up, alongside the dragon plot given that the gods left because of the dragons, and the two that were still around were only so because of the dragons.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    The devs have gone out of their way to say that they have plenty of story left to tell. So, I see no reason as to why there wouldn't be any room for more story/another expansion. Especially dealing with the gods.

    After all, what we see on the in-game map is a tiny portion of the entire planet according to the Globe of Whispers. If it's profitable, they'll come up with something.

    The said EoD isn't the end of GW2's narrative, and that they have stories for after that.

    At the rate the game moves, we are easily looking at two more living world seasons after EoD, before we finish the dragon plot. Which, if they are anything like IBS, is another 4 more years of narratives after IBS/EoD. At the rate its going, IBS still has a year left in it. Giving us 5 more years of narratives, and the game being 13 years old by the time we are done with this.

    Narratively, the game has wrapped up, or is working wrapping up, pretty much every major plot its introduced

    Humanity(Kryta)

    • The centaurs have been defeated, and pushed out of Kryta
    • The bandits leaders have been killed
    • The White Mantle has been rooted out, and competently destroyed

    Sylvari

    • The mystery behind their origin and immunity to dragon corruption has been discovered
    • The Pale Tree has been put on the path to recovery
    • The Nightmare court has had all of its leadership destroyed, and its numbers decimated

    Charr

    • Kralkatorrik is dead, and the branded are being moped up
    • Bangar has been outed, and the Charr civil war is over
    • The Flame Legion has been brought back into Charr society under the leadership of Efram
    • The Charr are now on a path to fix many of the massive social problems that have plagued them for centuries

    Norn

    • Braham has cracked the tooth, setting into motion the prophecy
    • We have discovered what happened to the lost Spirits of the Wild, including the truth behind Owl
    • We learned the truth behind Asgeir's fight with Jormag
    • Jahvi was able to get revenge on Drakkar for what it did to her family

    Humanity(Elona)

    • Palawa Joko is dead, and his empire collapsed
    • The Sunspear Order has been reformed
    • The various groups in Elona have formed a coalition government to move Elona into a post-Joko future together.

    Like, there is the Cantha stuff(EoD and its associated living world), and the Asura stuff(Primordus season after EoD and its LW), and then GW2 will be pretty much out of the major narrative hooks that have permeated the game since the beginning. There is a few other things like the Wizard Tower(a raid), getting rid of the Ghosts of Ascalon, and what happened the Mylack, but those are things that aren't full narratives themselves, those are plot points inside actual narratives(like having us find Malyck and his tree in the northern Maguuma Wastes after we go up there because Primordus does something). And I would be legit surprised if the god plot doesn't get woven into, and wrapped up, alongside the dragon plot given that the gods left because of the dragons, and the two that were still around were only so because of the dragons.

    I would like to see some of these places like Sunrise Crest show up in game as their appears to be trades routes going to it. Whether that is an opportunity for post dragon story or still be connected, it’s hard to tell, but I would still like to see what is over on that other continent.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2020

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Why bring in the gods in an expansion about dragons, and titled about dragons?

    Why not? I don't see why that couldn't be the case. Path of fire had gods and dragons. If it fits the story, why not? Plus, this could possibly be last expansion.

    Path of Fire had a buildup with Balthazar, and it was more about gods than dragons - dragons were ultimately just a mcguffin in that plot, more than characters.

    And this isn't the end of GW2's story - ANet devs already confirmed that. So not very likely to be the last expansion unless they go full on living world seasons afterwards (which doesn't sit well with the playerbase).

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    • The centaurs have been defeated, and pushed out of Kryta
    • The Nightmare court has had all of its leadership destroyed, and its numbers decimated

    These two points are false, actually. The centaurs were shown in Season 3 and IBS trailer to still be a force, and you don't end a war just by wiping out a handful of camps and killing a leader - not when the war is literally 1,000 years old. And the ending of Dragon's Stand shows that the Nightmare Court still has leadership and forces (and though it got cut out, there were plans to show even more of this in HoT).

    There's also several points you don't bring up that are unfinished, such as all loose asura plot ends, that, currently, have zero indication of being included in either the remaining Icebrood Saga or End of Dragons content:

    • The six lost citadel cities of the asura (particularly Quora Sum, arguably excluding Central Transfer Chamber)
    • Kuda and the Inquest continuing Kudu's research
    • The fate of Menzies
    • Desmina's rather ominous plans for the Underworld
    • The situation of the Mists and afterlives after Kralkatorrik's damage no doubt causing some sort of repercussion (you don't make holes in space-time reality without major consequences)
    • The mystery of Lyssa surrounding Path of Fire
    • Visiting the largos Tethyos Houses (could be tied to DSD, but not likely tied to Cantha)
    • The potential plot of the ancient god-killers brought up in the Complete Art of Guild Wars
    • The potential plots of exploring distant lands like Sunrise Crest, Forsaken Cliffs, Not Real, and the Sunken Isles; of these, the Sunrise Crest and Sunken Isles are particularly interesting because the Season 2 map showed trade routes to it from the Battle Isles.

    Knowing you, you'll find some lengthy inane argument for why each and every one of those things are "small and unimportant" or are "wrong in every way" as you usually do when responding to my posts. But these are easily lengthy plots to go into, either as just an episodic focus or a full narrative.

    Fact is, there's an entire world that got set up in Season 2 for exploration. Even if the Central Tyria plots were (mostly) cleaned up, there's still plenty of GW2 to go on with. And there's nothing preventing ANet from creating brand new plot hooks, like they did throughout the entirety of Season 1 - nothing in Season 1 was foreshadowed in prior content, except Mordremoth's existence, and he played a very, very minor role in the plot. Nor does this even cover the minor things that players have wanted for ages like visiting Wizard's Tower, Janthir, and the eastern charr lands.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Path of Fire had a buildup with Balthazar, and it was more about gods than dragons - dragons were ultimately just a mcguffin in that plot, more than characters.

    Buildup can be literally done in a single episode if needed. How much buildup did Morderemoth have in living season 2?

    it was more about gods than dragons

    And what stops this expansion being more about dragons than gods? I'm sure no one expects to see gods plot to ever be explored to such extent as dragons were and still are. Path of fire had Kralkatorik, Aurene, Glint, Vlast - that's plenty of dragon in a non dragon related expansion.

    And this isn't the end of GW2's story - ANet devs already confirmed that. So not very likely to be the last expansion unless they go full on living world seasons afterwards (which doesn't sit well with the playerbase).

    Depends on how much they are willing to do with game after this expansion. Obviously, they won't say "yeah, we are mostly done with gw2". That would be terrible thing to say when you are trying to sell upcoming expansion and keep people playing after that. Expansions are expected to have game changing features, new elite specs at this point (I'm pretty sure they said new elite spec for every expansion back in the day, but I could be wrong), probably new raids, legendaries and whatnot and of course something major to focus story around. People will cry otherwise. Doesn't seem likely to me, but that's just my opinion.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Why bring in the gods in an expansion about dragons, and titled about dragons?

    Why not? I don't see why that couldn't be the case. Path of fire had gods and dragons. If it fits the story, why not? Plus, this could possibly be last expansion.

    Path of Fire had a buildup with Balthazar, and it was more about gods than dragons - dragons were ultimately just a mcguffin in that plot, more than characters.

    And this isn't the end of GW2's story - ANet devs already confirmed that. So not very likely to be the last expansion unless they go full on living world seasons afterwards (which doesn't sit well with the playerbase).

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    • The centaurs have been defeated, and pushed out of Kryta
    • The Nightmare court has had all of its leadership destroyed, and its numbers decimated

    These two points are false, actually. The centaurs were shown in Season 3 and IBS trailer to still be a force, and you don't end a war just by wiping out a handful of camps and killing a leader - not when the war is literally 1,000 years old. And the ending of Dragon's Stand shows that the Nightmare Court still has leadership and forces (and though it got cut out, there were plans to show even more of this in HoT).

    There's also several points you don't bring up that are unfinished, such as all loose asura plot ends, that, currently, have zero indication of being included in either the remaining Icebrood Saga or End of Dragons content:

    • The six lost citadel cities of the asura (particularly Quora Sum, arguably excluding Central Transfer Chamber)
    • Kuda and the Inquest continuing Kudu's research
    • The fate of Menzies
    • Desmina's rather ominous plans for the Underworld
    • The situation of the Mists and afterlives after Kralkatorrik's damage no doubt causing some sort of repercussion (you don't make holes in space-time reality without major consequences)
    • The mystery of Lyssa surrounding Path of Fire
    • Visiting the largos Tethyos Houses (could be tied to DSD, but not likely tied to Cantha)
    • The potential plot of the ancient god-killers brought up in the Complete Art of Guild Wars
    • The potential plots of exploring distant lands like Sunrise Crest, Forsaken Cliffs, Not Real, and the Sunken Isles; of these, the Sunrise Crest and Sunken Isles are particularly interesting because the Season 2 map showed trade routes to it from the Battle Isles.

    Knowing you, you'll find some lengthy inane argument for why each and every one of those things are "small and unimportant" or are "wrong in every way" as you usually do when responding to my posts. But these are easily lengthy plots to go into, either as just an episodic focus or a full narrative.

    Fact is, there's an entire world that got set up in Season 2 for exploration. Even if the Central Tyria plots were (mostly) cleaned up, there's still plenty of GW2 to go on with. And there's nothing preventing ANet from creating brand new plot hooks, like they did throughout the entirety of Season 1 - nothing in Season 1 was foreshadowed in prior content, except Mordremoth's existence, and he played a very, very minor role in the plot. Nor does this even cover the minor things that players have wanted for ages like visiting Wizard's Tower, Janthir, and the eastern charr lands.

    Yes and I’m still waiting for an explanation to an old mystery of what happened to Evennia too... which I’m pretty sure still hasn’t been answered, though I recall there being a possible hint in S3 that she was hung by Adelbern.

  • @serialkicker.5274 said:
    How much buildup did Morderemoth have in living season 2?

    The entire season 2, and the six of the last seven releases of Season 1.

    @serialkicker.5274 said:
    And what stops this expansion being more about dragons than gods? I'm sure no one expects to see gods plot to ever be explored to such extent as dragons were and still are. Path of fire had Kralkatorik, Aurene, Glint, Vlast - that's plenty of dragon in a non dragon related expansion.

    In theory? Nothing. But every piece of evidence we have on the expansion so far is about Kuunavang and the Elder Dragon cycle. I don't think they'd advertise the first teaser about those two things when the expansion is more about the Six Gods.

    And I don't think anyone's arguing whether or not any continuation of the Six Gods' plot will be as big as the Elder Dragon plot has been for GW2, but that's a completely different argument of Lyssa (or the gods in general) having involvement in End of Dragons.

    Also, while the four crystal dragons had cameos in Path of Fire, the expansion was barely about any of them. Palawa Joko had a bigger impact on Path of Fire than Glint and Vlast combined. If you're arguing that the gods will have that level of relation, then the expansion won't be about Lyssa going on a crusade to end the Elder Dragon threat as Tyson.5160 suggested which I responded to with that "Why bring in the gods in an expansion about dragons, and titled about dragons?" question that you responded to with "why not" that sparked this argument.

    We're not talking about the level of involvement the crystal dragon family had in Path of Fire, we're talking about Balthazar's level of involvement in Path of Fire. And that's not something you pull out of you kitten while showcasing something completely different.

    It'd be like if we got the trailers we had for Heart of Thorns, but the entire expansion was all about Primordus and not Mordremoth.

    Depends on how much they are willing to do with game after this expansion. Obviously, they won't say "yeah, we are mostly done with gw2". That would be terrible thing to say when you are trying to sell upcoming expansion and keep people playing after that.

    The story can end while people still play it - take a look at Guild Wars 1, and Eye of the North was an expansion released with an "End of GW1 story" production, because in the later stages of EotN's production period we were being told about GW2. And EotN sales were fine, GW1 playerbase was fine, there was no doomsday.

    So you're wrong on this - what would be bad for sales would be saying that the servers were going to shut down shortly after the expansion, not that there'd be no new story content.

    Expansions are expected to have game changing features, new elite specs at this point (I'm pretty sure they said new elite spec for every expansion back in the day, but I could be wrong), probably new raids, legendaries and whatnot and of course something major to focus story around. People will cry otherwise. Doesn't seem likely to me, but that's just my opinion.

    Technically speaking, no expansion was released with raids or legendaries. They all came in subsequent updates and merely required the previous (or any) expansion.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:
    Yes and I’m still waiting for an explanation to an old mystery of what happened to Evennia too... which I’m pretty sure still hasn’t been answered, though I recall there being a possible hint in S3 that she was hung by Adelbern.

    More than just a hint, it was an outright statement by Caudecus of Evennia's fate, and using this fact as an argument for why the Salma line of kings, including Jennah, were bad rulers.

    Of course there's the chance Caudecus was lying, but a) anyone of Tyria could look Evennia's fate in a history book, and b) propaganda is best done when using a true fact to back up a false argument. And Caudecus is a good enough politician and manipulator to know both of those aspects of propaganda.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Yes and I’m still waiting for an explanation to an old mystery of what happened to Evennia too... which I’m pretty sure still hasn’t been answered, though I recall there being a possible hint in S3 that she was hung by Adelbern.

    More than just a hint, it was an outright statement by Caudecus of Evennia's fate, and using this fact as an argument for why the Salma line of kings, including Jennah, were bad rulers.

    Of course there's the chance Caudecus was lying, but a) anyone of Tyria could look Evennia's fate in a history book, and b) propaganda is best done when using a true fact to back up a false argument. And Caudecus is a good enough politician and manipulator to know both of those aspects of propaganda.

    I was expecting something a bit more concrete, however given how the Zinn secret’s employer was Joko and advised off the cuff, I’m not overly surprised...

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    In theory? Nothing. But every piece of evidence we have on the expansion so far is about Kuunavang and the Elder Dragon cycle. I don't think they'd advertise the first teaser about those two things when the expansion is more about the Six Gods.

    Are you intentionally misreading or what's the issue here? Who said anything about this expansion being more about gods? Actually, let me quote myself "And what stops this expansion being more about dragons than gods?". So clearly, I said why can't expansion be about dragons, but still have gods?

    And I don't think anyone's arguing whether or not any continuation of the Six Gods' plot will be as big as the Elder Dragon plot has been for GW2, but that's a completely different argument of Lyssa (or the gods in general) having involvement in End of Dragons.

    I know no one is arguing that. I'm saying, it doesn't have to be to that extent in order for them to "appear" in expansion. Lyssa doesn't even have to physically appear in story or she doesn't need to be "big" part of it in a sense that she needs a lot of screen time or that she often interacts with us. She could be a "background" character that we don't even ever see or interact with her, but she could still have a big impact on the story. And guess what, expansion could still be largely about dragons. Not sure what is hard to understand here.

    Also, while the four crystal dragons had cameos in Path of Fire, the expansion was barely about any of them. Palawa Joko had a bigger impact on Path of Fire than Glint and Vlast combined. If you're arguing that the gods will have that level of relation, then the expansion won't be about Lyssa going on a crusade to end the Elder Dragon threat as Tyson.5160 suggested which I responded to with that "Why bring in the gods in an expansion about dragons, and titled about dragons?" question that you responded to with "why not" that sparked this argument.

    Well, funny you mention that. Did you see Joko in Path of Fire teaser? Or Glint? Aurene? Kralkatorik? Well that's strange. Why the hell were they in story?
    Besides you still didn't answer the question. Well, you tried with "Path of Fire had a buildup with Balthazar, and it was more about gods than dragons - dragons were ultimately just a mcguffin in that plot, more than characters.". Which obviously doesn't really answer the question. Not every character needs a build up and it certainly doesn't prevent it from showing up at any point in the story. Something being the focus in story also doesn't prevent from others from showing up and being part of the story. I don't know what kind of logic that is, but it makes no sense. And then you proceed to dismiss the four dragon appearing in PoF as it was barely anything. As if they didn't play important roles there. Just because it wasn't focus on them, doesn't mean they were in expansion and they didn't contribute to story. And same could happen with Lyssa. Sure, I would prefer for her to have more screen time and interaction with us, than maybe four dragon did, but that doesn't make your argument any less nonsensical.

    We're not talking about the level of involvement the crystal dragon family had in Path of Fire, we're talking about Balthazar's level of involvement in Path of Fire. And that's not something you pull out of you kitten while showcasing something completely different.

    Oh, we aren't. Why is that so? Because it wrecks your argument? Why can't Lyssa in this expansion have the level of involvement that four dragons did in PoF and still expansion being more focused on dragons, as PoF was on Balthazar? It's a simple question.

    The story can end while people still play it - take a look at Guild Wars 1, and Eye of the North was an expansion released with an "End of GW1 story" production, because in the later stages of EotN's production period we were being told about GW2. And EotN sales were fine, GW1 playerbase was fine, there was no doomsday.

    I don't know how that relates to anything I said. Yes, story can end anytime and anywhere. What's your point? That means gods can't be part of this expansion?

    So you're wrong on this - what would be bad for sales would be saying that the servers were going to shut down shortly after the expansion, not that there'd be no new story content.

    I don't think you even believe your own words here. You think everyone would keep playing the game if developers themselves said "we are pretty much done with it after this expansion"? A lot of people lose will to play once they know that's basically it and they can't progress further or hope for new content, new areas to explore, new enemies to beat, new group content to explore, new secrets and challenges to find, etc.. Just look at endless topics that we had about game going into maintenance mode and people panicking. Or look at any other game when they entered the maintenance mode and how their population managed.

    Technically speaking, no expansion was released with raids or legendaries. They all came in subsequent updates and merely required the previous (or any) expansion.

    And we know how "happy" people were about that.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    In theory? Nothing. But every piece of evidence we have on the expansion so far is about Kuunavang and the Elder Dragon cycle. I don't think they'd advertise the first teaser about those two things when the expansion is more about the Six Gods.

    Are you intentionally misreading or what's the issue here? Who said anything about this expansion being more about gods? Actually, let me quote myself "And what stops this expansion being more about dragons than gods?". So clearly, I said why can't expansion be about dragons, but still have gods?

    And I don't think anyone's arguing whether or not any continuation of the Six Gods' plot will be as big as the Elder Dragon plot has been for GW2, but that's a completely different argument of Lyssa (or the gods in general) having involvement in End of Dragons.

    I know no one is arguing that. I'm saying, it doesn't have to be to that extent in order for them to "appear" in expansion. Lyssa doesn't even have to physically appear in story or she doesn't need to be "big" part of it in a sense that she needs a lot of screen time or that she often interacts with us. She could be a "background" character that we don't even ever see or interact with her, but she could still have a big impact on the story. And guess what, expansion could still be largely about dragons. Not sure what is hard to understand here.

    Also, while the four crystal dragons had cameos in Path of Fire, the expansion was barely about any of them. Palawa Joko had a bigger impact on Path of Fire than Glint and Vlast combined. If you're arguing that the gods will have that level of relation, then the expansion won't be about Lyssa going on a crusade to end the Elder Dragon threat as Tyson.5160 suggested which I responded to with that "Why bring in the gods in an expansion about dragons, and titled about dragons?" question that you responded to with "why not" that sparked this argument.

    Well, funny you mention that. Did you see Joko in Path of Fire teaser? Or Glint? Aurene? Kralkatorik? Well that's strange. Why the hell were they in story?
    Besides you still didn't answer the question. Well, you tried with "Path of Fire had a buildup with Balthazar, and it was more about gods than dragons - dragons were ultimately just a mcguffin in that plot, more than characters.". Which obviously doesn't really answer the question. Not every character needs a build up and it certainly doesn't prevent it from showing up at any point in the story. Something being the focus in story also doesn't prevent from others from showing up and being part of the story. I don't know what kind of logic that is, but it makes no sense. And then you proceed to dismiss the four dragon appearing in PoF as it was barely anything. As if they didn't play important roles there. Just because it wasn't focus on them, doesn't mean they were in expansion and they didn't contribute to story. And same could happen with Lyssa. Sure, I would prefer for her to have more screen time and interaction with us, than maybe four dragon did, but that doesn't make your argument any less nonsensical.

    We're not talking about the level of involvement the crystal dragon family had in Path of Fire, we're talking about Balthazar's level of involvement in Path of Fire. And that's not something you pull out of you kitten while showcasing something completely different.

    Oh, we aren't. Why is that so? Because it wrecks your argument? Why can't Lyssa in this expansion have the level of involvement that four dragons did in PoF and still expansion being more focused on dragons, as PoF was on Balthazar? It's a simple question.

    The story can end while people still play it - take a look at Guild Wars 1, and Eye of the North was an expansion released with an "End of GW1 story" production, because in the later stages of EotN's production period we were being told about GW2. And EotN sales were fine, GW1 playerbase was fine, there was no doomsday.

    I don't know how that relates to anything I said. Yes, story can end anytime and anywhere. What's your point? That means gods can't be part of this expansion?

    So you're wrong on this - what would be bad for sales would be saying that the servers were going to shut down shortly after the expansion, not that there'd be no new story content.

    I don't think you even believe your own words here. You think everyone would keep playing the game if developers themselves said "we are pretty much done with it after this expansion"? A lot of people lose will to play once they know that's basically it and they can't progress further or hope for new content, new areas to explore, new enemies to beat, new group content to explore, new secrets and challenges to find, etc.. Just look at endless topics that we had about game going into maintenance mode and people panicking. Or look at any other game when they entered the maintenance mode and how their population managed.

    Technically speaking, no expansion was released with raids or legendaries. They all came in subsequent updates and merely required the previous (or any) expansion.

    And we know how "happy" people were about that.

    Not to put words in Konig’s mouth, (and please correct me if I’m way out to lunch here) but I don’t think he saying that Lyssa won’t have any involvement because at this time, who knows what’s going to happen, I think what he’s stating and for the most part, generally states with most of his posts, is that he doesn’t see conclusive evidence that such a thing will happen based on what we have been provided currently.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:

    Not to put words in Konig’s mouth, (and please correct me if I’m way out to lunch here) but I don’t think he saying that Lyssa won’t have any involvement because at this time, who knows what’s going to happen, I think what he’s stating and for the most part, generally states with most of his posts, is that he doesn’t see conclusive evidence that such a thing will happen based on what we have been provided currently.

    And I didn't say that he is saying that she won't be in expansion. I simply asked him why he thinks she can't be in expansion and then I didn't find his responses to make much sense, therefore I argued his points.

  • Taylan.2187Taylan.2187 Member ✭✭✭

    I found the trailer to be a bit underwhelming, to be honest, and difficult to understand, but here's my analysis after re-watching it carefully. I like the voice acting quite a bit on second reflection...

    The trailer represents a conversation between two characters, female and male. The female voice is revealed to be Kuunavang by the male voice, and the male voice is then the mysterious new character mentioned by the developer on Twitter so we don't know who it is.

    Let's analyze the conversation itself.

    Kuunavang:
    This land... it's a monument to mortal resilience. They built new lives upon the very thing that sought to end theirs.

    Taking into account especially the intonation of the second sentence, in my opinion, she is expressing a great admiration and amazement towards mortals. She is greatly impressed, inspired, and sympathetic towards them.

    Mysterious voice:
    Mortals are little flames -- brilliant, hot, then gone. Those who face eternity easily forget what a lifetime means. What an ending means.

    While it sounds like this character is also inspired by mortals to some degree, towards the end it sounds like that in his opinion, mortals need to meet an end. Presumably not just a personal end, but an end to a whole era. He thinks that mortals, by their nature, ought to be destroyed and reborn. Presumably, this means completing the Elder Dragon wake/destroy/sleep cycle, i.e. the mysterious voice is of the opinion that the EDs should be helped in destroying the world, coz The Nature Of Things aka How I'ts Meant To Be.

    Kuunavang:
    You know it doesn't have to be this way.

    This further confirms that what the mysterious voice aims for is something which... the mortals would rather not want to happen. I.e. suffering, destruction, The End. Since Kuunavang is sympathetic towards them, she doesn't agree that this is how things ought to be.

    Mysterious voice:
    No Kuunavang, it does. They need me.

    His voice is very decided. He is convinced that "helping" mortals meet their end is the right thing to do. That they need this. It's a bit like when a parent physically punishes their child and defends it by saying "the kid needs that to grow up to be a disciplined person" or something, you know?

    That being said, the mysterious voice is also rather calm and kind-sounding, only a bit ominous at the end (together with the close-up on a dragon's eyes) where he says "they need me." So I'm not sure how much the story will push on us that he's simply Evil. It could be that the story will leave it ambiguous whether he might actually be right and/or paint him in a very empathetic manner. Then again, in the story so far we've already had several characters talk ominously about how bad it would be to kill the EDs / prevent them from completing the cycle, only for Aurene to magically fix everything and the Commander to just keep going the same route... I didn't get the feeling so far that ANet seriously wants to go the route of "killing EDs actually revealed to be super bad and Commander did massive mistakes!" But maybe they'll still switch to it.

    Summary:

    1. I don't know what exactly it means that mortals "built new lives upon the very thing that sought to end theirs." I don't think it's relevant though.
    2. Kuunavang wants to help mortals continue the Glint Way (or some other way) of ending the cycle of destruction and rebirth because it causes too much suffering to mortals, while Mysterious Character wants the cycle to complete because he's convinced it's The Right Way. This will probably be the main plot of the expansion. The name "End of Dragons" is probably an allusion to the fact that we're almost done killing all EDs now, with Mysterious Character being the last obstacle. So again, main plot is about finishing off EDs to end the cycle. Not sure how Aurene fits into that though.

    I believe Jormag will be dead soon but don't know how DSD and especially Primordius fit into this story. The voice could simply be DSD, or its champion, which would make sense. (Last surviving DSD trying to complete the cycle of destruction?) But what's with Primordius then?? Finishing him off in some LW season would be super lame, even if there was time for a whole new LW season after Icebrood is over.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2020

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    In theory? Nothing. But every piece of evidence we have on the expansion so far is about Kuunavang and the Elder Dragon cycle. I don't think they'd advertise the first teaser about those two things when the expansion is more about the Six Gods.

    Are you intentionally misreading or what's the issue here? Who said anything about this expansion being more about gods? Actually, let me quote myself "And what stops this expansion being more about dragons than gods?". So clearly, I said why can't expansion be about dragons, but still have gods?

    I'll admit I misread it as "being more about gods than dragons?" However, the entire discussion began with a theory by Tyson that Lyssa would be playing a major role as large as Balthazar did in Path of Fire:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Well according to Kormir in PoF, the gods can be fooled by Lyssa’s illusions, so its entirely possible that she stayed behind in hiding in a human form in Cantha which given the scriptures was a common tactic that Lyssa used. Perhaps Lyssa also wanted to deal with the dragons like Balthazar, however had different methods of doing such.

    Lyssa is also an enigma too because of duality, where she could have many contradictions as well as illusions on her side. Given how Anet “bread crumbed” Balthazar with very subtle hints, this purple mist could be what they are doing for Lyssa.

    Which, apparently, you completely overlooked when you first replied and/or forgot about since, given you seem to have zero recollection of what started this line of discussion. Which is why you're so apparently confused by my argument.

    Well, funny you mention that. Did you see Joko in Path of Fire teaser? Or Glint? Aurene? Kralkatorik? Well that's strange. Why the hell were they in story?

    We did see Awakened, we did see Vlast, and we saw Branded. And the entire promotional premise was "Balthazar went to Joko's empire to track down Kralkatorrik".

    Not every character needs a build up and it certainly doesn't prevent it from showing up at any point in the story.

    Again, I'll point to what started this discussion in the first place: the theory (that I disagree with) that Lyssa will be playing a major role.

    And major roles do need build up, especially if they fill the same role as a previous major antagonist.

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    Not to put words in Konig’s mouth, (and please correct me if I’m way out to lunch here) but I don’t think he saying that Lyssa won’t have any involvement because at this time, who knows what’s going to happen, I think what he’s stating and for the most part, generally states with most of his posts, is that he doesn’t see conclusive evidence that such a thing will happen based on what we have been provided currently.

    And I didn't say that he is saying that she won't be in expansion. I simply asked him why he thinks she can't be in expansion and then I didn't find his responses to make much sense, therefore I argued his points.

    I mean, I said why I think she won't be in the expansion from the get go in the very first thing you quoted me. I don't think repeating myself will be of any benefit.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2020

    @Taylan.2187 said:
    I believe Jormag will be dead soon but don't know how DSD and especially Primordius fit into this story. The voice could simply be DSD, or its champion, which would make sense. (Last surviving DSD trying to complete the cycle of destruction?) But what's with Primordius then?? Finishing him off in some LW season would be super lame, even if there was time for a whole new LW season after Icebrood is over.

    I don't really see why killing Primordus in an LW season, or an expansion, really matters. LW seasons and expansions are pretty much the same thing, except expansions drop all at once, while LW seasons release over time. We would get the same amount of maps/achievements/skins/story either way.

    That being said, I think people are taking "End of Dragons" too literally. I doubt all of the Elder Dragons will be dead by the end of it. The expansion will probably deal more with us finding a way to safely end them without the world blowing up, removing the last barrier we have to killing them, rather then the actual KILLING of the last Elder Dragon. The "End of Dragons" referring more to the end the final power they lord over us.

  • serialkicker.5274serialkicker.5274 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    I'll admit I misread it as "being more about gods than dragons?" However, the entire discussion began with a theory by Tyson that Lyssa would be playing a major role as large as Balthazar did in Path of Fire:

    Fair enough. Mistakes happen.

    We did see Awakened, we did see Vlast, and we saw Branded. And the entire promotional premise was "Balthazar went to Joko's empire to track down Kralkatorrik".

    You aren't mistaking a teaser for trailer by chance? Because comparing teaser to a trailer would be unfair, wouldn't you agree? (I took PoF teaser as example, because we only have teaser so far for third expansion. Unless I'm terribly missing something in teaser. I'm by far not an expert on lore.

    Again, I'll point to what started this discussion in the first place: the theory (that I disagree with) that Lyssa will be playing a major role.

    That's fine if you have your theory and reasoning, but let's go back and see where our discussion started and what I quoted you on. Quoting you below.

    Why bring in the gods in an expansion about dragons, and titled about dragons?

    So, all I asked was "Why not?" Then you proceeded to give reasoning that you gave and I simply didn't find them convincing.

    And major roles do need build up, especially if they fill the same role as a previous major antagonist.

    Not necessarily. Sometimes it's nice to have a surprise. It certainly isn't "required". Would people have a problem if Bubbles suddenly appear out of nowhere, since he barely has any buildup, if you even want to call that a build up. If it fits the story and it's done right, I don't think people would have a problem.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Taylan.2187 said:
    I believe Jormag will be dead soon but don't know how DSD and especially Primordius fit into this story. The voice could simply be DSD, or its champion, which would make sense. (Last surviving DSD trying to complete the cycle of destruction?) But what's with Primordius then?? Finishing him off in some LW season would be super lame, even if there was time for a whole new LW season after Icebrood is over.

    I don't really see why killing Primordus in an LW season, or an expansion, really matters. LW seasons and expansions are pretty much the same thing, except expansions drop all at once, while LW seasons release over time. We would get the same amount of maps/achievements/skins/story either way.

    That being said, I think people are taking "End of Dragons" too literally. I doubt all of the Elder Dragons will be dead by the end of it. The expansion will probably deal more with us finding a way to safely end them without the world blowing up, removing the last barrier we have to killing them, rather then the actual KILLING of the last Elder Dragon. The "End of Dragons" referring more to the end the final power they lord over us.

    I’m still holding to the belief that Primordus will be the last dragon to die. He’ll escape deeper into Tyria or flee into the mists or something. Given that Primordus has been kinda bobbling in and out of the story as a reminder that he is still a threat, as well as the big dragon antagonist that may or may not end up being Aurene’s opposite of the dragon of light, and transforming into the dragon of darkness.

    What I also notice is the lack of variation with destroyers. We have what the crab, troll, harpy, mega destroyer and wyvern destroyer models? We now have the inclusion of the stone summit, which beefs up Primordus arsenal a bit as well.

    All of the other dragons seem to have a wide array of minions, yet Primordus is lacking. Is this because eventually Primordus is going to have access to all the different dragon spheres of influence and this will be reflected in light blue/blue and purple destroyers as well, along with the death/vine and regular destroyer models?

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’m still holding to the belief that Primordus will be the last dragon to die. He’ll escape deeper into Tyria or flee into the mists or something. Given that Primordus has been kinda bobbling in and out of the story as a reminder that he is still a threat, as well as the big dragon antagonist that may or may not end up being Aurene’s opposite of the dragon of light, and transforming into the dragon of darkness.

    What I also notice is the lack of variation with destroyers. We have what the crab, troll, harpy, mega destroyer and wyvern destroyer models? We now have the inclusion of the stone summit, which beefs up Primordus arsenal a bit as well.

    All of the other dragons seem to have a wide array of minions, yet Primordus is lacking. Is this because eventually Primordus is going to have access to all the different dragon spheres of influence and this will be reflected in light blue/blue and purple destroyers as well, along with the death/vine and regular destroyer models?

    I also believe Primordus will be the last to die to do thematic parallels to GW1.

    Also, the Stone Summit aren't under Primordus's command, only that one group was. Most of the Stone Summit had made a treay with the Deldrimor, and followed them into turning to stone and fighting the destroyers.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’m still holding to the belief that Primordus will be the last dragon to die. He’ll escape deeper into Tyria or flee into the mists or something. Given that Primordus has been kinda bobbling in and out of the story as a reminder that he is still a threat, as well as the big dragon antagonist that may or may not end up being Aurene’s opposite of the dragon of light, and transforming into the dragon of darkness.

    What I also notice is the lack of variation with destroyers. We have what the crab, troll, harpy, mega destroyer and wyvern destroyer models? We now have the inclusion of the stone summit, which beefs up Primordus arsenal a bit as well.

    All of the other dragons seem to have a wide array of minions, yet Primordus is lacking. Is this because eventually Primordus is going to have access to all the different dragon spheres of influence and this will be reflected in light blue/blue and purple destroyers as well, along with the death/vine and regular destroyer models?

    I also believe Primordus will be the last to die to do thematic parallels to GW1.

    Also, the Stone Summit aren't under Primordus's command, only that one group was. Most of the Stone Summit had made a treay with the Deldrimor, and followed them into turning to stone and fighting the destroyers.

    Just given by the text, it sounds like stone summit are no more other then this group that we are dealing with.

    “A messenger has returned from the peace agreements. The other Summit clans have agreed to reunify with Deldrimor.”

    Reunify with my understanding would mean no more Stone Summit.

  • @serialkicker.5274 said:
    You aren't mistaking a teaser for trailer by chance? Because comparing teaser to a trailer would be unfair, wouldn't you agree? (I took PoF teaser as example, because we only have teaser so far for third expansion. Unless I'm terribly missing something in teaser. I'm by far not an expert on lore.

    I'm aware it's a teaser and won't be telling much, but even the very first PoF teaser showcased Vlast directly, though at the time we didn't know it was Vlast (we weren't expecting gold crystals), and the premise was still the same. And the Hot teaser still showcased Faolain and the Exalted. Mind you, those teasers gave so much more than this one - or the core game's teaser which was just .05 seconds of Zhaitan.

    Again, I'll point to what started this discussion in the first place: the theory (that I disagree with) that Lyssa will be playing a major role.

    That's fine if you have your theory and reasoning, but let's go back and see where our discussion started and what I quoted you on. Quoting you below.

    Why bring in the gods in an expansion about dragons, and titled about dragons?

    So, all I asked was "Why not?" Then you proceeded to give reasoning that you gave and I simply didn't find them convincing.

    The issue I'm seeing here, is that you took a line, brought it out of context and asked for an answer to a question about the line while being out of context, and I gave an answer considering the original quote's context which you found unconvincing because it was in context.

    And major roles do need build up, especially if they fill the same role as a previous major antagonist.

    Not necessarily. Sometimes it's nice to have a surprise. It certainly isn't "required". Would people have a problem if Bubbles suddenly appear out of nowhere, since he barely has any buildup, if you even want to call that a build up. If it fits the story and it's done right, I don't think people would have a problem.

    Even plot twists need build up - they just shouldn't be obvious build up. When you don't have build up for a plot twist, we get kitten like the Lazarus/Balthazar reveal (technically that did have buildup but the buildup was so subtle that they're only noticeable after scrutinizing with hindsight).

    Of course, I won't argue that such hints must be in the teaser trailer - in fact, I would argue the opposite. But that only furthers my original argument of the teaser not hinting at the return of any god, let alone specifically Lyssa.

    Does it make it impossible? No, and it wouldn't be the first time the playerbase sees A, and argues that E is the destination, while lacking B, C, and D. The sylvari being dragon minion revelation is proof of that (all/most original arguments for that were ironically false or unfounded - such as the Pale Tree being cleansed by Ventari just because Mordy was sleeping just because Glint "freed herself" (which was disproven in the Arah dungeon); or the notion that dragon minions are immune to corruption from other dragons being "proof" of sylvari being minions because they're immune (disproven in CoE, and later again in S2 and HoT promotions - it's their connection to the Pale Tree that prevents corruption, not their nature as minions - that theory was effectively getting the outcome right with all the wrong logical deductions).

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Just given by the text, it sounds like stone summit are no more other then this group that we are dealing with.

    “A messenger has returned from the peace agreements. The other Summit clans have agreed to reunify with Deldrimor.”

    Reunify with my understanding would mean no more Stone Summit.

    Correct. We've known since pre-release that the Stone Summit had, post-GW1, rejoined Deldrimor as the call of the Rite of the Great Dwarf called for all dwarves to turn to stone. There might have been some other pockets that refused/resisted, but without doing similar antics as this group, then they would have turned to stone and joined the rest regardless.

    What would be curious would be if this groups' antics let Primordus to be capable of corrupting all other stone dwarves. Similar thing happened with Kralkatorrik - after he ate Balthazar's freed magic, he was suddenly capable of corrupting weak divine magic that the djinn used for protection. Primordus may have eventually gained the ability to corrupt stone dwarves, which would explain why they suddenly stopped holding back Primordus (other than outright being genocided a techniclaly second time).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2020

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Just given by the text, it sounds like stone summit are no more other then this group that we are dealing with.

    “A messenger has returned from the peace agreements. The other Summit clans have agreed to reunify with Deldrimor.”

    Reunify with my understanding would mean no more Stone Summit.

    Yes, and when 99% of your group goes off and does something, and you don't, that doesn't really make you part of the group now does it?

    The Stone Summit don't exist, because they went back to the Deldrimor. There is just this group of former Stone Summit that got corrupted. So the original statement I replied to, the one that claimed the Stone Summit are now part of Primordus's arsenal is wrong, they aren't. The Stone Summit rejoined the Deldrimor, and turned into Stone Dwarves who fought Primordus's minions.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Just given by the text, it sounds like stone summit are no more other then this group that we are dealing with.

    “A messenger has returned from the peace agreements. The other Summit clans have agreed to reunify with Deldrimor.”

    Reunify with my understanding would mean no more Stone Summit.

    Yes, and when 99% of your group goes off and does something, and you don't, that doesn't really make you part of the group now does it?

    The Stone Summit don't exist, because they went back to the Deldrimor. There is just this group of former Stone Summit that got corrupted. So the original statement I replied to, the one that claimed the Stone Summit are now part of Primordus's arsenal is wrong, they aren't. The Stone Summit rejoined the Deldrimor, and turned into Stone Dwarves who fought Primordus's minions.

    I am so sorry for distracting from the main topic, but i can't really find any lore stating that those stone summit were corrupted by primordus, is there any chance you or anyone in this thread can direct me to that? I tried googling it but couldn't find the answer.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • serialkicker.5274serialkicker.5274 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    The issue I'm seeing here, is that you took a line, brought it out of context and asked for an answer to a question about the line while being out of context, and I gave an answer considering the original quote's context which you found unconvincing because it was in context.

    I didn't bring it out of context. I read your posts before I made mine. Your statement sounded to me like a separate thing, question on its own. It sounded to me like "Despite all the reasoning I gave of not seeing it happen, why would gods even be in expansion that is about dragons?" If you meant otherwise, then you worded it badly. If you would word it in a way that would be clear you are talking about your opinion, like "I don't feel it's likely to happen..." or "I don't see enough hints, proof to see it happen..." or "considering what we know and considering reasons I gave, I don't think we'll see gods in expansion" or something like that. Instead you put out a general question "Why would gods be in a expansion focused on dragons?" I understand if it's a misunderstanding, but that's what I got from it and I didn't feel like I'm pulling it out of context.

    Even plot twists need build up - they just shouldn't be obvious build up. When you don't have build up for a plot twist, we get kitten like the Lazarus/Balthazar reveal (technically that did have buildup but the buildup was so subtle that they're only noticeable after scrutinizing with hindsight).

    Lyssa already has a build up. So, not sure why you keep going with this idea.

    Of course, I won't argue that such hints must be in the teaser trailer - in fact, I would argue the opposite. But that only furthers my original argument of the teaser not hinting at the return of any god, let alone specifically Lyssa.

    It's a teaser. And even here we don't know much of what it means. I highly doubt you knew much of what's about to happen in PoF, just by watching PoF teaser.
    And certainly, there were many things in PoF that had impact in story, but weren't seen in teaser.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2020

    @serialkicker.5274 said:
    I didn't bring it out of context. I read your posts before I made mine. Your statement sounded to me like a separate thing, question on its own.

    It was the second sentence directly under a quote, and the sentence in question - as well as both sentences surrounding it - were about the same topic as said quote. In fact, the entire rest of the post under the quote was in response to that quote, and clearly so, since it all talks about hints to Lyssa in the teaser / her involvement in the expansion.

    So how you viewed it as a separate thing is more than a bit odd.

    Lyssa already has a build up. So, not sure why you keep going with this idea.

    In-game? Barely. It's literally just four lines of text, and only two are directly related. The community is just blowing those four lines way out of proportion after a confirmation that one of them was intentional.

    In the teaser? Not at all, as far as we know. And it was the teaser - this expansion - which I am talking about.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Just given by the text, it sounds like stone summit are no more other then this group that we are dealing with.

    “A messenger has returned from the peace agreements. The other Summit clans have agreed to reunify with Deldrimor.”

    Reunify with my understanding would mean no more Stone Summit.

    Yes, and when 99% of your group goes off and does something, and you don't, that doesn't really make you part of the group now does it?

    The Stone Summit don't exist, because they went back to the Deldrimor. There is just this group of former Stone Summit that got corrupted. So the original statement I replied to, the one that claimed the Stone Summit are now part of Primordus's arsenal is wrong, they aren't. The Stone Summit rejoined the Deldrimor, and turned into Stone Dwarves who fought Primordus's minions.

    Well, according to the rest of the text, they believe they are Stone Summit and they keep the same names for when you fight them in game.

    What I’m saying is this left over group of Stone Summit are now apart of Primordus’s army because simply they are. The rest got amalgamated back into the Deldrimor, so essentially the last true Stone Summit, ones that held true to the beliefs are now minions of Primordus and according to the text their are now mindless thralls, enslaved to the fire dragon.

    “The other Summit clans have agreed to reunify with Deldrimor. We cannot submit to this weakness; we will never be their tools. It is better for us to forge our own path than to submit to ideologies that undermine the core of our being.”

    “Their talk of our fate is an excuse for the corruption they have embraced. We will not be their soldiers. Our transformation does not make us "brethren." We have nothing in common other than our race. They are misguided. They do not represent us.

    The Summit stands alone at the top.“

    With the other Stone Summit clans back with the Deldrimor, that only leaves this clan left, which then leaves them ultimately being pawns to Primordus.