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Why SnowCrows is destroying Raiding

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  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Except for maybe largos, raids don't really have a strict DPS check nor are there many instant death mechanics. Just for clarification, I wouldn't call the DPS check for largos "strict" but it's probably the boss groups would likely struggle with when it comes to DPS.

    From your perspective this is true. This is not everyone's perspective. If I try to lead a raid we can't even get to a second phase because of getting instantly crushed with incomprehensible damage and getting no damage on boss. It's just endless misery and no progress and constant rage quits. If I join a raid it's nonstop getting screamed at about this weapon or that trait and "kill yourself you insert slur here" for joining a raid without knowing this or that. AKA more endless misery. I don't even run objectively bad builds, I have well above average HPS and DPS by arcdps's measure. It's more a problem of the mentality that the fixed raid difficulty produces, not that I can't play GW2 good. I would much rather play a mode that can be cleared by a wide variety of compositions and skill levels than listen to this meta arguing day in and day out. I just wish there was a way to play them without all this nonsense. The people who think they are too hard, the people who think they are correct, and the people who think they are too easy are all forced into the same instances and that breeds these ceaseless arguments and limitless toxicity and hate. There's just no good reason for it and it has eroded the quality of the game severely.

    Well about the incomprehensible damage, check combat log to see what killed you after the fight. ( try to spot what do what and step out of bad stuff)
    Learn to not stand in front of boss helps.
    If you join someone going for a clear without knowing anything ofcourse they will chew you out.
    There is a way find like minded people and start learning them, just dont expect to just go in wack the boss a few times and collect loot, that is what open world is for.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Except for maybe largos, raids don't really have a strict DPS check nor are there many instant death mechanics. Just for clarification, I wouldn't call the DPS check for largos "strict" but it's probably the boss groups would likely struggle with when it comes to DPS.

    From your perspective this is true. This is not everyone's perspective. If I try to lead a raid we can't even get to a second phase because of getting instantly crushed with incomprehensible damage and getting no damage on boss. It's just endless misery and no progress and constant rage quits. If I join a raid it's nonstop getting screamed at about this weapon or that trait and "kill yourself you insert slur here" for joining a raid without knowing this or that. AKA more endless misery. I don't even run objectively bad builds, I have well above average HPS and DPS by arcdps's measure. It's more a problem of the mentality that the fixed raid difficulty produces, not that I can't play GW2 good. I would much rather play a mode that can be cleared by a wide variety of compositions and skill levels than listen to this meta arguing day in and day out. I just wish there was a way to play them without all this nonsense. The people who think they are too hard, the people who think they are correct, and the people who think they are too easy are all forced into the same instances and that breeds these ceaseless arguments and limitless toxicity and hate. There's just no good reason for it and it has eroded the quality of the game severely.

    I don't see why your group is taking so much damage. Are people failing mechanics? Standing in stuff they shouldn't such as puddles or tornadoes? I'm not sure what you may refer to as the second phase whether that be Kenut or when the groups split. Oh wait. If they're failing mechanics then they're getting waterlogged stacks which means they're taking more damage. Maybe that's why your group is taking so much damage.

  • @Linken.6345 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Except for maybe largos, raids don't really have a strict DPS check nor are there many instant death mechanics. Just for clarification, I wouldn't call the DPS check for largos "strict" but it's probably the boss groups would likely struggle with when it comes to DPS.

    From your perspective this is true. This is not everyone's perspective. If I try to lead a raid we can't even get to a second phase because of getting instantly crushed with incomprehensible damage and getting no damage on boss. It's just endless misery and no progress and constant rage quits. If I join a raid it's nonstop getting screamed at about this weapon or that trait and "kill yourself you insert slur here" for joining a raid without knowing this or that. AKA more endless misery. I don't even run objectively bad builds, I have well above average HPS and DPS by arcdps's measure. It's more a problem of the mentality that the fixed raid difficulty produces, not that I can't play GW2 good. I would much rather play a mode that can be cleared by a wide variety of compositions and skill levels than listen to this meta arguing day in and day out. I just wish there was a way to play them without all this nonsense. The people who think they are too hard, the people who think they are correct, and the people who think they are too easy are all forced into the same instances and that breeds these ceaseless arguments and limitless toxicity and hate. There's just no good reason for it and it has eroded the quality of the game severely.

    Well about the incomprehensible damage, check combat log to see what killed you after the fight. ( try to spot what do what and step out of bad stuff)
    Learn to not stand in front of boss helps.
    If you join someone going for a clear without knowing anything ofcourse they will chew you out.
    There is a way find like minded people and start learning them, just dont expect to just go in wack the boss a few times and collect loot, that is what open world is for.

    I understand that there is plenty of people who want to play the raids this way. That's fine, you deserve to have the raiding you want to have. You've had it for 5 years. What I want is the slightest consideration for those of us who have been left behind for all the reasons in your blind spot. You can't fix my issues with raiding by saying "just do X Y and Z thing and it's fine". It's something necessary to say, because even though I've said it on this same page already, every reply directed at me is just "do X Y and Z thing and it's fine". It does not work for me, I am not new to this. Discussing raiding is just yelling into a void, but I feel so strongly about it that I feel compelled to keep needling at it. I am not posting complaining about X raid lead was mad about Y thing. I'm not complaining about one individual mechanic that is too hard. That is just a natural part of the level of difficulty associated with the one raid difficulty we have. If you have a raid difficulty that is geared towards coordinated groups using optimized builds, the culture of people zealously devoted to coordination and optimization will dominate it. This is just an inescapable truth that we have to deal with and should be considered in the game design. I want to farm the content without having to associate with these vicious hateful impatient people who dominate raiding. I can go in t3 fractal 10 hours a day and not encounter a single angry salty person. I have still to this day after 5 years never gone in a raid instance that wasn't just pure hell from the interactions with "raiders". I want a dang easy mode.

  • Asgaeroth.6427Asgaeroth.6427 Member ✭✭
    edited October 30, 2020

    It's the same circular argument for 5 years. I say my opinion, and 30 raiders hand wave it with the specific things I said don't work for me as hand waves. It's not just as simple as don't join hardcore groups or make your own casual group. Virtually every group requires specific builds, so joining "like minded" groups isn't a good option. The content very much isn't tuned for "chill groups" so listing also isn't a good option. If it even fills in a reasonable time frame, you're still just looking at endless wipe misery and rage quits. A good 90% of GW2 players are stuck in this blind spot that the raiders can't see. There's so many little things that the raiding community sees as routine that very much are not, and they feel that criticism of raiding is only at the smaller subset of things that they see as challenging. No one is asking you to change your perspective, I just want other perspectives to be considered. The game would be a lot better for it. You're not seeing the bigger picture of why it doesn't work for so many people. Anything you can say about why I am wrong and raids are fine I've tried to make it work, and 20 more things you haven't thought of on top of it. The solution I want is to sequester the current raiding culture away in it's own LFG section like the vile hive of 15 acronym party names and rage fueled GAMERS that run them that is T4 fractals, and give us people who don't like engaging with that access to the content after 5 years waiting. You're not going to sway me from wanting that.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2020

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    It's the same circular argument for 5 years. I say my opinion, and 30 raiders hand wave it with the specific things I said don't work for me as hand waves. It's not just as simple as don't join hardcore groups or make your own casual group. Virtually every group requires specific builds, so joining "like minded" groups isn't a good option. The content very much isn't tuned for "chill groups" so listing also isn't a good option. If it even fills in a reasonable time frame, you're still just looking at endless wipe misery and rage quits. A good 90% of GW2 players are stuck in this blind spot that the raiders can't see. There's so many little things that the raiding community sees as routine that very much are not, and they feel that criticism of raiding is only at the smaller subset of things that they see as challenging. No one is asking you to change your perspective, I just want other perspectives to be considered. The game would be a lot better for it. You're not seeing the bigger picture of why it doesn't work for so many people. Anything you can say about why I am wrong and raids are fine I've tried to make it work, and 20 more things you haven't thought of on top of it. The solution I want is to sequester the current raiding culture away in it's own LFG section like the vile hive of 15 acronym party names and rage fueled GAMERS that run them that is T4 fractals, and give us people who don't like engaging with that access to the content after 5 years waiting. You're not going to sway me from wanting that.

    Remember anet them self said raids would not be pugable it was only for co ordinated guilds, the community proved them wrong and people are puging them these days.

    Just do what these try hard raiders did, start your own squads and go in and learn the content.
    If anything you got it easier since there is guides out there on every boss now ( I used them myself when my group started 2 or 3 years ago)

    Ofcourse joining likeminded people is the answer if there is a 90% pool out there with people then find 9 other people like yourself form a squad and meet up 1 day a week and start learning boss after boss.
    Edit
    From my experience t3 is way more toxic then t4 since t3 is were most people doing fractals finally have to understand mechanics.

    Edit 2
    Start a chill raids looking for people to start learning in the lfg.
    Then when you got a total of 10 people sit down and figure out what day you can all start to play together each week.

    The other rage filled acronym parties shouldent bother you at all they are not made for you so block them out of your mind.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    It's the same circular argument for 5 years. I say my opinion, and 30 raiders hand wave it with the specific things I said don't work for me as hand waves. It's not just as simple as don't join hardcore groups or make your own casual group. Virtually every group requires specific builds, so joining "like minded" groups isn't a good option. The content very much isn't tuned for "chill groups" so listing also isn't a good option. If it even fills in a reasonable time frame, you're still just looking at endless wipe misery and rage quits. A good 90% of GW2 players are stuck in this blind spot that the raiders can't see. There's so many little things that the raiding community sees as routine that very much are not, and they feel that criticism of raiding is only at the smaller subset of things that they see as challenging. No one is asking you to change your perspective, I just want other perspectives to be considered. The game would be a lot better for it. You're not seeing the bigger picture of why it doesn't work for so many people. Anything you can say about why I am wrong and raids are fine I've tried to make it work, and 20 more things you haven't thought of on top of it. The solution I want is to sequester the current raiding culture away in it's own LFG section like the vile hive of 15 acronym party names and rage fueled GAMERS that run them that is T4 fractals, and give us people who don't like engaging with that access to the content after 5 years waiting. You're not going to sway me from wanting that.

    There was a guy in gw2 facebook who made an guild for ppl that arw new to raids and wants to play off meta builds. Sorry i cannot give more details as my memory is a bit pepega.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    It's the same circular argument for 5 years. I say my opinion, and 30 raiders hand wave it with the specific things I said don't work for me as hand waves. It's not just as simple as don't join hardcore groups or make your own casual group. Virtually every group requires specific builds, so joining "like minded" groups isn't a good option. The content very much isn't tuned for "chill groups" so listing also isn't a good option. If it even fills in a reasonable time frame, you're still just looking at endless wipe misery and rage quits. A good 90% of GW2 players are stuck in this blind spot that the raiders can't see. There's so many little things that the raiding community sees as routine that very much are not, and they feel that criticism of raiding is only at the smaller subset of things that they see as challenging. No one is asking you to change your perspective, I just want other perspectives to be considered. The game would be a lot better for it. You're not seeing the bigger picture of why it doesn't work for so many people. Anything you can say about why I am wrong and raids are fine I've tried to make it work, and 20 more things you haven't thought of on top of it. The solution I want is to sequester the current raiding culture away in it's own LFG section like the vile hive of 15 acronym party names and rage fueled GAMERS that run them that is T4 fractals, and give us people who don't like engaging with that access to the content after 5 years waiting. You're not going to sway me from wanting that.

    There was a guy in gw2 facebook who made an guild for ppl that arw new to raids and wants to play off meta builds. Sorry i cannot give more details as my memory is a bit pepega.

    It's just not what I am talking about at all. There are fundamental problems with the raiding experience that can not be solved with the "just do X thing and it is fine". It is not helpful in any way to say go scour Facebook if you want to wear soldier armor in raid. That's not how I play anyway, and is not the issue that prevents me from enjoying raids. It's the day in day out 24/7/365 oppression of raiding culture that is the problem. I don't want to play with people who adhere to the stupidity that is going on in raid LFG. The main reason it exists in the state that it does is because if you don't have the correct builds in the current base line raid difficulty, you just are not going to get anywhere with it. Those "chill groups" of "like minded players" are a big frustrating mess pretty much every time. That horrible experience mostly doesn't exist because you can sit and watch raid LFG for a week and not see a non-elitist group listed, because people try that once and then uninstall the game.

    If you don't mesh well with the efficiency culture that the current raids are exclusively catered to, you have three options: buy them from some RMTer, ignore them entirely, or grit your teeth and fake your way to whatever thing you need out of it and then ignore them entirely. Where is the healthy enjoyable long game in there? It just is not how it should be. The only public facing raid LFG channel with any activity is 95% RMTers farming their gold back and 5% strings of build acronyms. This is not a hard thing to solve, but all these raid discussions ever are are people demanding useless symptom whack-a-mole for a disease with a trivial cure.

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2020

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    It's the same circular argument for 5 years. I say my opinion, and 30 raiders hand wave it with the specific things I said don't work for me as hand waves. It's not just as simple as don't join hardcore groups or make your own casual group. Virtually every group requires specific builds, so joining "like minded" groups isn't a good option. The content very much isn't tuned for "chill groups" so listing also isn't a good option. If it even fills in a reasonable time frame, you're still just looking at endless wipe misery and rage quits. A good 90% of GW2 players are stuck in this blind spot that the raiders can't see. There's so many little things that the raiding community sees as routine that very much are not, and they feel that criticism of raiding is only at the smaller subset of things that they see as challenging. No one is asking you to change your perspective, I just want other perspectives to be considered. The game would be a lot better for it. You're not seeing the bigger picture of why it doesn't work for so many people. Anything you can say about why I am wrong and raids are fine I've tried to make it work, and 20 more things you haven't thought of on top of it. The solution I want is to sequester the current raiding culture away in it's own LFG section like the vile hive of 15 acronym party names and rage fueled GAMERS that run them that is T4 fractals, and give us people who don't like engaging with that access to the content after 5 years waiting. You're not going to sway me from wanting that.

    There was a guy in gw2 facebook who made an guild for ppl that arw new to raids and wants to play off meta builds. Sorry i cannot give more details as my memory is a bit pepega.

    It's just not what I am talking about at all. There are fundamental problems with the raiding experience that can not be solved with the "just do X thing and it is fine". It is not helpful in any way to say go scour Facebook if you want to wear soldier armor in raid. That's not how I play anyway, and is not the issue that prevents me from enjoying raids. It's the day in day out 24/7/365 oppression of raiding culture that is the problem. I don't want to play with people who adhere to the stupidity that is going on in raid LFG. The main reason it exists in the state that it does is because if you don't have the correct builds in the current base line raid difficulty, you just are not going to get anywhere with it. Those "chill groups" of "like minded players" are a big frustrating mess pretty much every time. That horrible experience mostly doesn't exist because you can sit and watch raid LFG for a week and not see a non-elitist group listed, because people try that once and then uninstall the game.

    If you don't mesh well with the efficiency culture that the current raids are exclusively catered to, you have three options: buy them from some RMTer, ignore them entirely, or grit your teeth and fake your way to whatever thing you need out of it and then ignore them entirely. Where is the healthy enjoyable long game in there? It just is not how it should be. The only public facing raid LFG channel with any activity is 95% RMTers farming their gold back and 5% strings of build acronyms. This is not a hard thing to solve, but all these raid discussions ever are are people demanding useless symptom whack-a-mole for a disease with a trivial cure.

    What i say play how you want i like wearing soldier mixed with nomad amor and play dps it shouldnt be anyone else problem what i play in raids but issue is its some bosses do require high dmg and builds working a certain way this was an issue before raids in dungeons where it was before hot no ranger no necro zerker gear scholar req in lfg

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    From your perspective this is true. This is not everyone's perspective.

    We do not need everyone's perspective. We need the perspective of the people interested in playing raid content, which will be a small section of the playerbase, because raid content is by default niche content. Similarly we would not want to consider the perspective of people who dislike playing against other players when designing pvp game modes.

    I don't even run objectively bad builds, I have well above average HPS and DPS by arcdps's measure. It's more a problem of the mentality that the fixed raid difficulty produces, not that I can't play GW2 good.

    Do you remember when the developers stated that they are very aware of the gap in performance between different types of players? According to them the damage output between top end and average players can differ by as much as a factor of 20. Meaning that you can be ahead of the average by quite a bit and still only put out 20% of the dps that great players can achieve. And considering that you yourself said that the difficulty of raid content is simply too much for you to handle, the obvious conclusion is that you are not really good at playing this game. I get that that is not what you want to hear, but that does not make it any less true.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2020

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    It's the same circular argument for 5 years. I say my opinion, and 30 raiders hand wave it with the specific things I said don't work for me as hand waves. It's not just as simple as don't join hardcore groups or make your own casual group. Virtually every group requires specific builds, so joining "like minded" groups isn't a good option. The content very much isn't tuned for "chill groups" so listing also isn't a good option. If it even fills in a reasonable time frame, you're still just looking at endless wipe misery and rage quits. A good 90% of GW2 players are stuck in this blind spot that the raiders can't see. There's so many little things that the raiding community sees as routine that very much are not, and they feel that criticism of raiding is only at the smaller subset of things that they see as challenging. No one is asking you to change your perspective, I just want other perspectives to be considered. The game would be a lot better for it. You're not seeing the bigger picture of why it doesn't work for so many people. Anything you can say about why I am wrong and raids are fine I've tried to make it work, and 20 more things you haven't thought of on top of it. The solution I want is to sequester the current raiding culture away in it's own LFG section like the vile hive of 15 acronym party names and rage fueled GAMERS that run them that is T4 fractals, and give us people who don't like engaging with that access to the content after 5 years waiting. You're not going to sway me from wanting that.

    There was a guy in gw2 facebook who made an guild for ppl that arw new to raids and wants to play off meta builds. Sorry i cannot give more details as my memory is a bit pepega.

    It's just not what I am talking about at all. There are fundamental problems with the raiding experience that can not be solved with the "just do X thing and it is fine". It is not helpful in any way to say go scour Facebook if you want to wear soldier armor in raid.

    True, in order to succeed in raid content, a player needs a certain mindset. Most important here is willingness to actually cooperate and play together with other players. Everything else is secondary. Even the "required" performance is insignificant given there are build which can achieve absolutely sufficient results on basically only auto attack rotations. Still, a player needs to be willing to adjust and adapt their build in order to serve the group, even when running simple builds.

    There is no room for the solo hermit who both is unwilling to play with others AND refuses to improve his performance to required levels. One of both can work, say guild members covering for weaker performance, or being a social outcast but bringing decent performance in PUG groups. Both does not work.

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    That's not how I play anyway, and is not the issue that prevents me from enjoying raids. It's the day in day out 24/7/365 oppression of raiding culture that is the problem.

    and yet here the casual guilds I know don't subject themselves to "raid culture" and are rather flexible in how people play. The only requirement is to play with the group and if you turn toxic, you get the boot.

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    I don't want to play with people who adhere to the stupidity that is going on in raid LFG. The main reason it exists in the state that it does is because if you don't have the correct builds in the current base line raid difficulty, you just are not going to get anywhere with it.

    Yes, the LFG is not the best place for certain players or certain content searching players. That's why it is often not recommended over and over and over for getting into raiding. Again this leads back to a players desire to become part of a group and leave the hermit live style behind them.

    Raids were originally designed as this games challenging content for organized groups. The fact they can be PUGed at all is basically already a failure in design and a testament to them being to easy (or to how well players can specialize and organize even under the most limiting circumstances).

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    Those "chill groups" of "like minded players" are a big frustrating mess pretty much every time.

    Turns out, you need to be chill and accepting of other players mistakes if you want them to extend the same benefit to you.

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    That horrible experience mostly doesn't exist because you can sit and watch raid LFG for a week and not see a non-elitist group listed, because people try that once and then uninstall the game.

    Again, stop talking about the LFG. It's not the place you should be at IF you actually were interested in raiding.

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    If you don't mesh well with the efficiency culture that the current raids are exclusively catered to, you have three options: buy them from some RMTer, ignore them entirely, or grit your teeth and fake your way to whatever thing you need out of it and then ignore them entirely.

    Untrue. You simply are incapable to seem to find players who fit what you want. From all you have said you seem to want the fluidity and efficiency of a pro or experienced raid group, while yourself being unwilling to provide a similar performance or adhere to standard protocol. Yet you are unwilling to extend the same courtesy to fellow raiders getting frustrated by weaker groups, who would have the potential to be more relaxed and less demanding. In short: you want to get carried.

    There are chill raid groups/guilds. They take longer to clear content. They take longer to kill a boss. They often have to train far longer until they progress. Yet during all that time, they have fun. If that does not sound appealing to you, well then raiding is not for you.

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    Where is the healthy enjoyable long game in there? It just is not how it should be. The only public facing raid LFG channel with any activity is 95% RMTers farming their gold back and 5% strings of build acronyms. This is not a hard thing to solve, but all these raid discussions ever are are people demanding useless symptom whack-a-mole for a disease with a trivial cure.

    For the 3rd time in this reply: the LFG is not the place you would or should be looking IF raiding is actually your goal.

  • @Katary.7096 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    From your perspective this is true. This is not everyone's perspective.

    We do not need everyone's perspective. We need the perspective of the people interested in playing raid content, which will be a small section of the playerbase, because raid content is by default niche content. Similarly we would not want to consider the perspective of people who dislike playing against other players when designing pvp game modes.

    I don't even run objectively bad builds, I have well above average HPS and DPS by arcdps's measure. It's more a problem of the mentality that the fixed raid difficulty produces, not that I can't play GW2 good.

    Do you remember when the developers stated that they are very aware of the gap in performance between different types of players? According to them the damage output between top end and average players can differ by as much as a factor of 20. Meaning that you can be ahead of the average by quite a bit and still only put out 20% of the dps that great players can achieve. And considering that you yourself said that the difficulty of raid content is simply too much for you to handle, the obvious conclusion is that you are not really good at playing this game. I get that that is not what you want to hear, but that does not make it any less true.

    To me the "difficulty" of the content itself is not the core issue. I personally can do the content at a competent DPS contribution level. The real difficulty of the content is contending with people like you who hold these hateful beliefs about raiding. Your mentality is just baked into the current design at this point. You can't get away from it, period. You can't escape it with guild groups, you can't escape it with silently pugging "chill groups", or any other lifehack. The discussion for me is about how to get away from elitists and otherwise horrible people who have that skill forward and efficiency forward mental tick. It can't be done without scaling difficulty, and to me that is proven by fractals. Up to T3 fractal is a really good experience and you barely ever run into people like you. Once you go into T4, even if you list "chill group", you get a revolving door of clones of you having a raging fit about things. With raids, we're stuck with that one difficulty. Your contention is anyone who can't hang with you should simply not have access to the content. My contention is that is extremely harmful to the game and is completely arbitrary.

  • @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    I personally can do the content at a competent DPS contribution level.

    just for curiosity can we get some numbers what you see as "competent DPS contribution level"?

  • Asgaeroth.6427Asgaeroth.6427 Member ✭✭
    edited October 30, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    It's the same circular argument for 5 years. I say my opinion, and 30 raiders hand wave it with the specific things I said don't work for me as hand waves. It's not just as simple as don't join hardcore groups or make your own casual group. Virtually every group requires specific builds, so joining "like minded" groups isn't a good option. The content very much isn't tuned for "chill groups" so listing also isn't a good option. If it even fills in a reasonable time frame, you're still just looking at endless wipe misery and rage quits. A good 90% of GW2 players are stuck in this blind spot that the raiders can't see. There's so many little things that the raiding community sees as routine that very much are not, and they feel that criticism of raiding is only at the smaller subset of things that they see as challenging. No one is asking you to change your perspective, I just want other perspectives to be considered. The game would be a lot better for it. You're not seeing the bigger picture of why it doesn't work for so many people. Anything you can say about why I am wrong and raids are fine I've tried to make it work, and 20 more things you haven't thought of on top of it. The solution I want is to sequester the current raiding culture away in it's own LFG section like the vile hive of 15 acronym party names and rage fueled GAMERS that run them that is T4 fractals, and give us people who don't like engaging with that access to the content after 5 years waiting. You're not going to sway me from wanting that.

    There was a guy in gw2 facebook who made an guild for ppl that arw new to raids and wants to play off meta builds. Sorry i cannot give more details as my memory is a bit pepega.

    It's just not what I am talking about at all. There are fundamental problems with the raiding experience that can not be solved with the "just do X thing and it is fine". It is not helpful in any way to say go scour Facebook if you want to wear soldier armor in raid.

    True, in order to succeed in raid content, a player needs a certain mindset. Most important here is willingness to actually cooperate and play together with other players. Everything else is secondary. Even the "required" performance is insignificant given there are build which can achieve absolutely sufficient results on basically only auto attack rotations. Still, a player needs to be willing to adjust and adapt their build in order to serve the group, even when running simple builds.

    There is no room for the solo hermit who both is unwilling to play with others AND refuses to improve his performance to required levels. One of both can work, say guild members covering for weaker performance, or being a social outcast but bringing decent performance in PUG groups. Both does not work.

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    That's not how I play anyway, and is not the issue that prevents me from enjoying raids. It's the day in day out 24/7/365 oppression of raiding culture that is the problem.

    and yet here the casual guilds I know don't subject themselves to "raid culture" and are rather flexible in how people play. The only requirement is to play with the group and if you turn toxic, you get the boot.

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    I don't want to play with people who adhere to the stupidity that is going on in raid LFG. The main reason it exists in the state that it does is because if you don't have the correct builds in the current base line raid difficulty, you just are not going to get anywhere with it.

    Yes, the LFG is not the best place for certain players or certain content searching players. That's why it is often not recommended over and over and over for getting into raiding. Again this leads back to a players desire to become part of a group and leave the hermit live style behind them.

    Raids were originally designed as this games challenging content for organized groups. The fact they can be PUGed at all is basically already a failure in design and a testament to them being to easy (or to how well players can specialize and organize even under the most limiting circumstances).

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    Those "chill groups" of "like minded players" are a big frustrating mess pretty much every time.

    Turns out, you need to be chill and accepting of other players mistakes if you want them to extend the same benefit to you.

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    That horrible experience mostly doesn't exist because you can sit and watch raid LFG for a week and not see a non-elitist group listed, because people try that once and then uninstall the game.

    Again, stop talking about the LFG. It's not the place you should be at IF you actually were interested in raiding.

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    If you don't mesh well with the efficiency culture that the current raids are exclusively catered to, you have three options: buy them from some RMTer, ignore them entirely, or grit your teeth and fake your way to whatever thing you need out of it and then ignore them entirely.

    Untrue. You simply are incapable to seem to find players who fit what you want. From all you have said you seem to want the fluidity and efficiency of a pro or experienced raid group, while yourself being unwilling to provide a similar performance or adhere to standard protocol. Yet you are unwilling to extend the same courtesy to fellow raiders getting frustrated by weaker groups, who would have the potential to be more relaxed and less demanding. In short: you want to get carried.

    There are chill raid groups/guilds. They take longer to clear content. They take longer to kill a boss. They often have to train far longer until they progress. Yet during all that time, they have fun. If that does not sound appealing to you, well then raiding is not for you.

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    Where is the healthy enjoyable long game in there? It just is not how it should be. The only public facing raid LFG channel with any activity is 95% RMTers farming their gold back and 5% strings of build acronyms. This is not a hard thing to solve, but all these raid discussions ever are are people demanding useless symptom whack-a-mole for a disease with a trivial cure.

    For the 3rd time in this reply: the LFG is not the place you would or should be looking IF raiding is actually your goal.

    You post all that without having any consideration for my perspective. I have great consideration for your perspective and wish you to have the raids that you want to do. You denounce me so deeply and passionately, but you can't see what I am saying, or why I am saying it. You probably never will. I don't want a carry, anyone can get a carry for some gold. I want the content to be playable in LFG in a similar way to the rest of the game. Every pixel of the game up to raids forces you into LFG. I love LFG, I pug dungeons, fractals, metas, and strikes pretty much all day every day. To me it is a great system and works exactly as I would want my MMO to work. There just simply isn't a good reason for raids to be in the state they are with the wonderful systems and gameplay foundations we have beyond gatekeeping elitism and hate. We have vastly different outlooks on what raiding is and what it should be for. The reason you see raids as a failure is the same reason I see raids as a failure, but we have polar opposite ideas on the solution. There is room in the game for both perspectives, and the game needed both perspectives to be considered to be successful. My initial post or there-abouts I said this same thing, so we're circling back around and around again. Raids suck to you because there is too many concessions for people who want them easier. Raids suck to me because there is too many concession for people who want them harder. We have one middle ground difficulty that is trash for everyone. How is the solution to that problem in any way complicated? It is so obvious it might as well be Don Trump's spray tan.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2020

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    It's the same circular argument for 5 years. I say my opinion, and 30 raiders hand wave it with the specific things I said don't work for me as hand waves. It's not just as simple as don't join hardcore groups or make your own casual group. Virtually every group requires specific builds, so joining "like minded" groups isn't a good option. The content very much isn't tuned for "chill groups" so listing also isn't a good option. If it even fills in a reasonable time frame, you're still just looking at endless wipe misery and rage quits. A good 90% of GW2 players are stuck in this blind spot that the raiders can't see. There's so many little things that the raiding community sees as routine that very much are not, and they feel that criticism of raiding is only at the smaller subset of things that they see as challenging. No one is asking you to change your perspective, I just want other perspectives to be considered. The game would be a lot better for it. You're not seeing the bigger picture of why it doesn't work for so many people. Anything you can say about why I am wrong and raids are fine I've tried to make it work, and 20 more things you haven't thought of on top of it. The solution I want is to sequester the current raiding culture away in it's own LFG section like the vile hive of 15 acronym party names and rage fueled GAMERS that run them that is T4 fractals, and give us people who don't like engaging with that access to the content after 5 years waiting. You're not going to sway me from wanting that.

    There was a guy in gw2 facebook who made an guild for ppl that arw new to raids and wants to play off meta builds. Sorry i cannot give more details as my memory is a bit pepega.

    It's just not what I am talking about at all. There are fundamental problems with the raiding experience that can not be solved with the "just do X thing and it is fine". It is not helpful in any way to say go scour Facebook if you want to wear soldier armor in raid.

    True, in order to succeed in raid content, a player needs a certain mindset. Most important here is willingness to actually cooperate and play together with other players. Everything else is secondary. Even the "required" performance is insignificant given there are build which can achieve absolutely sufficient results on basically only auto attack rotations. Still, a player needs to be willing to adjust and adapt their build in order to serve the group, even when running simple builds.

    There is no room for the solo hermit who both is unwilling to play with others AND refuses to improve his performance to required levels. One of both can work, say guild members covering for weaker performance, or being a social outcast but bringing decent performance in PUG groups. Both does not work.

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    That's not how I play anyway, and is not the issue that prevents me from enjoying raids. It's the day in day out 24/7/365 oppression of raiding culture that is the problem.

    and yet here the casual guilds I know don't subject themselves to "raid culture" and are rather flexible in how people play. The only requirement is to play with the group and if you turn toxic, you get the boot.

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    I don't want to play with people who adhere to the stupidity that is going on in raid LFG. The main reason it exists in the state that it does is because if you don't have the correct builds in the current base line raid difficulty, you just are not going to get anywhere with it.

    Yes, the LFG is not the best place for certain players or certain content searching players. That's why it is often not recommended over and over and over for getting into raiding. Again this leads back to a players desire to become part of a group and leave the hermit live style behind them.

    Raids were originally designed as this games challenging content for organized groups. The fact they can be PUGed at all is basically already a failure in design and a testament to them being to easy (or to how well players can specialize and organize even under the most limiting circumstances).

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    Those "chill groups" of "like minded players" are a big frustrating mess pretty much every time.

    Turns out, you need to be chill and accepting of other players mistakes if you want them to extend the same benefit to you.

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    That horrible experience mostly doesn't exist because you can sit and watch raid LFG for a week and not see a non-elitist group listed, because people try that once and then uninstall the game.

    Again, stop talking about the LFG. It's not the place you should be at IF you actually were interested in raiding.

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    If you don't mesh well with the efficiency culture that the current raids are exclusively catered to, you have three options: buy them from some RMTer, ignore them entirely, or grit your teeth and fake your way to whatever thing you need out of it and then ignore them entirely.

    Untrue. You simply are incapable to seem to find players who fit what you want. From all you have said you seem to want the fluidity and efficiency of a pro or experienced raid group, while yourself being unwilling to provide a similar performance or adhere to standard protocol. Yet you are unwilling to extend the same courtesy to fellow raiders getting frustrated by weaker groups, who would have the potential to be more relaxed and less demanding. In short: you want to get carried.

    There are chill raid groups/guilds. They take longer to clear content. They take longer to kill a boss. They often have to train far longer until they progress. Yet during all that time, they have fun. If that does not sound appealing to you, well then raiding is not for you.

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    Where is the healthy enjoyable long game in there? It just is not how it should be. The only public facing raid LFG channel with any activity is 95% RMTers farming their gold back and 5% strings of build acronyms. This is not a hard thing to solve, but all these raid discussions ever are are people demanding useless symptom whack-a-mole for a disease with a trivial cure.

    For the 3rd time in this reply: the LFG is not the place you would or should be looking IF raiding is actually your goal.

    You post all that without having any consideration for my perspective. I have great consideration for your perspective and wish you to have the raids that you want to do. You denounce me so deeply and passionately, but you can't see what I am saying, or why I am saying it. You probably never will. I don't want a carry, anyone can get a carry for some gold.

    I have put forth consideration for your perspective, even with you using every free available space to insult, belittle or otherwise complain about other players who do not share your belief. Yes, please re-read some of the things you have posted. You don't let 1 line pass in which you do not insult an entire segment of the players base and pretend as though they are all the same, which they absolutely are not. I tried to give examples of where players can be found which absolutely do not fit any descriptor you put forth.

    I explained which mentality is actually required for raiding in this game. I did not insult, harass or insinuate anything negative. I used your own words as you put them forth to paint a picture of why you might have issues of cooperating with others. Yet you decide to label, misjudge and misrepresent as you see fit. Even worse, the moment someone speaks up and actually disagrees with your all encompassing judgement, you spray even more insults and complaints.

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    I want the content to be playable in LFG in a similar way to the rest of the game. Every pixel of the game up to raids forces you into LFG. I love LFG, I pug dungeons, fractals, metas, and strikes pretty much all day every day. To me it is a great system and works exactly as I would want my MMO to work. There just simply isn't a good reason for raids to be in the state they are with the wonderful systems and gameplay foundations we have beyond gatekeeping elitism and hate.

    Then put that forth in a way and as an argument without belittling, insulting or otherwise taking out your anger at fellow players for a design decision which THE DEVELOPERS made. This content is NOT meant to be PUGed. By simple design, PUGing this content will be inefficient and harder. That is no way any fault of existing players. Take it up with the developers, but keep your insults to yourself please.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2020

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    From your perspective this is true. This is not everyone's perspective.

    We do not need everyone's perspective. We need the perspective of the people interested in playing raid content, which will be a small section of the playerbase, because raid content is by default niche content.

    OUCH hold on here ... this is EXACTLY the reason raids died ... you actually SHOULD be advocating that most people's perspective should be considered. Raid content is NOT niche by default ... it's niche IN THIS GAME as a result of ignoring a significant portion of the community ... it didn't have to be this way. I mean, it's pretty weird to claim that raids are niche content in MMO's ... everyone playing an MMO should have the expectation of teaming people at SOME point.

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    It's the same circular argument for 5 years. I say my opinion, and 30 raiders hand wave it with the specific things I said don't work for me as hand waves. It's not just as simple as don't join hardcore groups or make your own casual group. Virtually every group requires specific builds, so joining "like minded" groups isn't a good option. The content very much isn't tuned for "chill groups" so listing also isn't a good option. If it even fills in a reasonable time frame, you're still just looking at endless wipe misery and rage quits. A good 90% of GW2 players are stuck in this blind spot that the raiders can't see. There's so many little things that the raiding community sees as routine that very much are not, and they feel that criticism of raiding is only at the smaller subset of things that they see as challenging. No one is asking you to change your perspective, I just want other perspectives to be considered. The game would be a lot better for it. You're not seeing the bigger picture of why it doesn't work for so many people. Anything you can say about why I am wrong and raids are fine I've tried to make it work, and 20 more things you haven't thought of on top of it. The solution I want is to sequester the current raiding culture away in it's own LFG section like the vile hive of 15 acronym party names and rage fueled GAMERS that run them that is T4 fractals, and give us people who don't like engaging with that access to the content after 5 years waiting. You're not going to sway me from wanting that.

    There was a guy in gw2 facebook who made an guild for ppl that arw new to raids and wants to play off meta builds. Sorry i cannot give more details as my memory is a bit pepega.

    It's just not what I am talking about at all. There are fundamental problems with the raiding experience that can not be solved with the "just do X thing and it is fine". It is not helpful in any way to say go scour Facebook if you want to wear soldier armor in raid. That's not how I play anyway, and is not the issue that prevents me from enjoying raids.

    This nails it. Raid issues aren't solved by telling people how to play, especially if the raid implementation doesn't consider how most of the players want to play in the first place. I'm going to remind everyone that raids are not aimed at casual players; it's the most un-casual friendly content in this game. If raids were not designed to be PUGed (I agree with that assessment) then raids were NOT designed with the casual player experience in mind. The problem with raids isn't a website that shares information; it's that the content implementation doesn't match the majority of the playerbase play style/demographic.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    It's the same circular argument for 5 years. I say my opinion, and 30 raiders hand wave it with the specific things I said don't work for me as hand waves. It's not just as simple as don't join hardcore groups or make your own casual group. Virtually every group requires specific builds, so joining "like minded" groups isn't a good option. The content very much isn't tuned for "chill groups" so listing also isn't a good option. If it even fills in a reasonable time frame, you're still just looking at endless wipe misery and rage quits. A good 90% of GW2 players are stuck in this blind spot that the raiders can't see. There's so many little things that the raiding community sees as routine that very much are not, and they feel that criticism of raiding is only at the smaller subset of things that they see as challenging. No one is asking you to change your perspective, I just want other perspectives to be considered. The game would be a lot better for it. You're not seeing the bigger picture of why it doesn't work for so many people. Anything you can say about why I am wrong and raids are fine I've tried to make it work, and 20 more things you haven't thought of on top of it. The solution I want is to sequester the current raiding culture away in it's own LFG section like the vile hive of 15 acronym party names and rage fueled GAMERS that run them that is T4 fractals, and give us people who don't like engaging with that access to the content after 5 years waiting. You're not going to sway me from wanting that.

    There was a guy in gw2 facebook who made an guild for ppl that arw new to raids and wants to play off meta builds. Sorry i cannot give more details as my memory is a bit pepega.

    It's just not what I am talking about at all. There are fundamental problems with the raiding experience that can not be solved with the "just do X thing and it is fine". It is not helpful in any way to say go scour Facebook if you want to wear soldier armor in raid. That's not how I play anyway, and is not the issue that prevents me from enjoying raids. It's the day in day out 24/7/365 oppression of raiding culture that is the problem. I don't want to play with people who adhere to the stupidity that is going on in raid LFG. The main reason it exists in the state that it does is because if you don't have the correct builds in the current base line raid difficulty, you just are not going to get anywhere with it. Those "chill groups" of "like minded players" are a big frustrating mess pretty much every time. That horrible experience mostly doesn't exist because you can sit and watch raid LFG for a week and not see a non-elitist group listed, because people try that once and then uninstall the game.

    If you don't mesh well with the efficiency culture that the current raids are exclusively catered to, you have three options: buy them from some RMTer, ignore them entirely, or grit your teeth and fake your way to whatever thing you need out of it and then ignore them entirely. Where is the healthy enjoyable long game in there? It just is not how it should be. The only public facing raid LFG channel with any activity is 95% RMTers farming their gold back and 5% strings of build acronyms. This is not a hard thing to solve, but all these raid discussions ever are are people demanding useless symptom whack-a-mole for a disease with a trivial cure.

    If you can perform adequately, nobody will know or care what build you bring. I run T4 fractals using dire gear with a PvP-style open world build and nobody knows or cares. I'm aware that the pros can push phases in a matter of a few seconds and that my poor pure condi build is woefully inadequate in that scenario, but you will never find a T4 pickup group pushing anything close to that kind of DPS without explicitly indicating that they are looking for that type of player.

    I'm not claiming that elitism doesn't exist. Personally, I don't stand for it. I have no interest in participating in any content in this game that involves putting up with players sniping at each other over performance. It's part of why I almost never raid, play ranked PvP, or run fractal CMs. However, I also recognize that this is a bit of a two-way street. Other players don't sign up to carry you. So, while SC-level efficiency is not remotely required, playing like a potato and joining T4 or raid groups wearing soldier gear and dealing 3k DPS is simply inconsiderate. In my opinion, if you expect others to be polite, you should make the effort to do likewise, which is not limited to the things you say but also the things you do (or don't!).

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    For the 3rd time in this reply: the LFG is not the place you would or should be looking IF raiding is actually your goal.

    Just wanted to leave it here for perspective:
    2015 Nov 17th - Release of Raid Wing 1 - Spirit Vale
    2016 Apr 19th - Squads can now be advertised in LFG.

    Far too many people claim what what have today for granted.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Janitsu.6284 said:
    Raids are EXTREMELY trivial and have no actually hard content once you've cleared them once or twice.

    For a lot of people it's more than just once or twice. Also, the key problem lies in the part "once you've cleared".
    Yes, obviously raids become easy once you have got to the point when they're easy. The issue lies in what happens before you get to that point.

    They become extremely easy after two clears. They are very easy prior to that if you just read up on the mechanics and practise a class to some extent. And you don't have to do your builds for some reason 😎😎😎😎😎😎

    minecrafter

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    For the 3rd time in this reply: the LFG is not the place you would or should be looking IF raiding is actually your goal.

    Just wanted to leave it here for perspective:
    2015 Nov 17th - Release of Raid Wing 1 - Spirit Vale
    2016 Apr 19th - Squads can now be advertised in LFG.

    Far too many people claim what what have today for granted.

    Notice, though, that the LFG for raids was there practically since day one. It was just being done through the intermediary of posting party lfg ads.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Janitsu.6284 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Janitsu.6284 said:
    Raids are EXTREMELY trivial and have no actually hard content once you've cleared them once or twice.

    For a lot of people it's more than just once or twice. Also, the key problem lies in the part "once you've cleared".
    Yes, obviously raids become easy once you have got to the point when they're easy. The issue lies in what happens before you get to that point.

    They become extremely easy after two clears.

    Maybe for you, but not for everyone.

    They are very easy prior to that if you just read up on the mechanics and practise a class to some extent.

    Again, maybe for you, but not for everyone.

    And you don't have to do your builds for some reason 😎😎😎😎😎😎

    Don't understand what you wanted to say there.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    From your perspective this is true. This is not everyone's perspective.

    We do not need everyone's perspective. We need the perspective of the people interested in playing raid content, which will be a small section of the playerbase, because raid content is by default niche content.

    OUCH hold on here ... this is EXACTLY the reason raids died ... you actually SHOULD be advocating that most people's perspective should be considered. Raid content is NOT niche by default ... it's niche IN THIS GAME as a result of ignoring a significant portion of the community ... it didn't have to be this way. I mean, it's pretty weird to claim that raids are niche content in MMO's ... everyone playing an MMO should have the expectation of teaming people at SOME point.

    Actually no that is not why raids died. Their is a multitude of reasons why they are in the state they are in.
    And their is nothing more dangerous then to try to make a specific content type appeal to everyone. (The same problems appears when they make LS bosses more challenging for example).

    Better way to word it is that challenging/group/pvm content will always be nich

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    It's the same circular argument for 5 years. I say my opinion, and 30 raiders hand wave it with the specific things I said don't work for me as hand waves. It's not just as simple as don't join hardcore groups or make your own casual group. Virtually every group requires specific builds, so joining "like minded" groups isn't a good option. The content very much isn't tuned for "chill groups" so listing also isn't a good option. If it even fills in a reasonable time frame, you're still just looking at endless wipe misery and rage quits. A good 90% of GW2 players are stuck in this blind spot that the raiders can't see. There's so many little things that the raiding community sees as routine that very much are not, and they feel that criticism of raiding is only at the smaller subset of things that they see as challenging. No one is asking you to change your perspective, I just want other perspectives to be considered. The game would be a lot better for it. You're not seeing the bigger picture of why it doesn't work for so many people. Anything you can say about why I am wrong and raids are fine I've tried to make it work, and 20 more things you haven't thought of on top of it. The solution I want is to sequester the current raiding culture away in it's own LFG section like the vile hive of 15 acronym party names and rage fueled GAMERS that run them that is T4 fractals, and give us people who don't like engaging with that access to the content after 5 years waiting. You're not going to sway me from wanting that.

    There was a guy in gw2 facebook who made an guild for ppl that arw new to raids and wants to play off meta builds. Sorry i cannot give more details as my memory is a bit pepega.

    It's just not what I am talking about at all. There are fundamental problems with the raiding experience that can not be solved with the "just do X thing and it is fine". It is not helpful in any way to say go scour Facebook if you want to wear soldier armor in raid. That's not how I play anyway, and is not the issue that prevents me from enjoying raids.

    This nails it. Raid issues aren't solved by telling people how to play, especially if the raid implementation doesn't consider how most of the players want to play in the first place. I'm going to remind everyone that raids are not aimed at casual players; it's the most un-casual friendly content in this game. If raids were not designed to be PUGed (I agree with that assessment) then raids were NOT designed with the casual player experience in mind. The problem with raids isn't a website that shares information; it's that the content implementation doesn't match the majority of the playerbase play style/demographic.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:
    Better way to word it is that challenging/group/pvm content will always be nich

    That's fair ... but let's be clear ... if ALL of raids are niche in GW2, it's because they were implemented that way, not because by default, raids are niche content. Raids are in the state they are in because of their implementation, not because of how people behave or because of information available on websites.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2020

    SOunds like raids need to become harder, give some brain cells do those mobs, so they can dodge block condi cleanse etc xD, build becomes less inportant player needs to play better than gimmick it.

    IMo raids issue its their useless reason to do it and they have no rewards of my interest.. its for pve players that want to look shiney!

    Ive been asking for Anet drops in raids equivalent to greens in gw1 in the game, raids bosses and mini bosses could be a decent way to introduce those uniquie weapons/armors that cant be used as skin and their effets and stats combination are unique with unique runes etc.

    Orange items :) or maybe reduce a tiers and use the green color, there to much useless tiers anyway!

    Imagine weapons and armor with unique runes and stats that could improve a bit certain skills or effects...this gear could not be used as savage to remove items nor salvaged for skin.

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    SOunds like raids need to become harder, give some brain cells do those mobs, so they can dodge block condi cleanse etc xD, build becomes less inportant player needs to play better than gimmick it.

    IMo raids issue its their useless reason to do it and they have no rewards of my interest.. its for pve players that want to look shiney!

    Ive been asking for Anet drops in raids equivalent to greens in gw1 in the game, raids bosses and mini bosses could be a decent way to introduce those uniquie weapons/armors that cant be used as skin and their effets and stats combination are unique with unique runes etc.

    Orange items :) or maybe reduce a tiers and use the green color, there to much useless tiers anyway!

    Imagine weapons and armor with unique runes and stats that could improve a bit certain skills or effects...this gear could not be used as savage to remove items nor salvaged for skin.

    With your changes at the start how do you figure builds will be less important?
    To me it looks like it would become more important with builds.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2020

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    SOunds like raids need to become harder, give some brain cells do those mobs, so they can dodge block condi cleanse etc xD, build becomes less inportant player needs to play better than gimmick it.

    IMo raids issue its their useless reason to do it and they have no rewards of my interest.. its for pve players that want to look shiney!

    Ive been asking for Anet drops in raids equivalent to greens in gw1 in the game, raids bosses and mini bosses could be a decent way to introduce those uniquie weapons/armors that cant be used as skin and their effets and stats combination are unique with unique runes etc.

    Orange items :) or maybe reduce a tiers and use the green color, there to much useless tiers anyway!

    Imagine weapons and armor with unique runes and stats that could improve a bit certain skills or effects...this gear could not be used as savage to remove items nor salvaged for skin.

    With your changes at the start how do you figure builds will be less important?
    To me it looks like it would become more important with builds.

    As in builds would end more aoe than anything else and that is what would matter?
    Could end like that, but that also deppends what mobs capabilities of action besides being health sponges with predictable aoe or be those low health mobs know as trash mobs to feed.

    The items is just an idea, raids need something thats unique and players m8 need, nobody needs infusions to be pretty, thats play to be useless.
    Besides all those infusions should be disabled in any kinda of pvp side of the game, when u go to wvw same should happen... instant visuals off.

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • You can close or delete this thread. I just realized that 1/4 of my postings in this thread got censored/deleted. And under such circumstances a discussion is pointless.
    And im quite sure someone will come up with "youre violating our rules" or "you were rude" or "youre not friendly enough" but there is a diffrence between an insult and criticising something. But i got it, youre not interested in what i have to say, so i wont trouble your forums any longer. Bye.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blumpf.2518 said:
    You can close or delete this thread. I just realized that 1/4 of my postings in this thread got censored/deleted. And under such circumstances a discussion is pointless.
    And im quite sure someone will come up with "youre violating our rules" or "you were rude" or "youre not friendly enough" but there is a diffrence between an insult and criticising something. But i got it, youre not interested in what i have to say, so i wont trouble your forums any longer. Bye.

    Make a reddit thread with exact same name. I wonder how that's gonna end :)

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2020

    @Blumpf.2518 said:
    And im quite sure someone will come up with "youre violating our rules" or "you were rude" or "youre not friendly enough" but there is a diffrence between an insult and criticising something.

    Yes. There is.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blumpf.2518 said:
    And im quite sure someone will come up with "youre violating our rules" or "you were rude" or "youre not friendly enough" but there is a difference between an insult and criticising something

    There is for sure, a fine line. But I think you're underestimating which side of the line a lot of your arguments and posts fall on.

    Despite the large amount of "you either agree with me or you are wrong" this was a pretty interesting, and fairly insightful, read.

  • keenedge.9675keenedge.9675 Member ✭✭✭

    It's not SnowCrows. It's the MMO mentality from people who don't like the exploration offered in RPG games. I've played RPGs for longer than the new players have been alive.

    Part of the FUN is exploration, learning, and testing while enjoying the journey while not opening a game guide unless you get completely stuck. There are many flavors for many people. I've stayed with GW2 because of their imposed game philosophy. I hope they don't lower the bar any further and don't change their style.

    Moral Statute Machine: John Spartan, you are fined five credits for repeated violations of the verbal morality statute.

  • Pip.2094Pip.2094 Member ✭✭

    The problem is not SC, it's people unbreakably convinced they can beat raids in Dire gear gs/staff mesmers.