AoE or Damage.

Smaller AoE or less damage on AoE skills.

WvW has snowball out of control in AoE size and damage. one of them has to be fix

I would recommend we lower AoE size it much easier change for anet an it will improve FPS. :)

neither. :/

players need to give effort to learn the wvw mechanics.

111 is now 3 ppl. damage has been systematically reduced since pre hot.

nos > few.team synergy > random builds.voice team > pugs.

@Sovereign.1093 said:neither. :/

players need to give effort to learn the wvw mechanics.

111 is now 3 ppl. damage has been systematically reduced since pre hot.

nos > few.team synergy > random builds.voice team > pugs.

But the aoe spam and it’s radios also helps reducing the skill of the team with sometimes very good reaults, if aoe gets smaller both have to put effort.Players with those set ups use for how good the reward is while betting In less effort gameplays.

Not all aoe circles would be reduced.

If aoe circles some gets smaller they will carry less some groups and gives some space for smaller and better groups with better builds to create more impact.

Many groups rely on mass aoe spam, nothing else, this would be a way to introduce some more skill to the game.

This isn't a one sided problem...

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:neither. :/

players need to give effort to learn the wvw mechanics.

111 is now 3 ppl. damage has been systematically reduced since pre hot.

nos > few.team synergy > random builds.voice team > pugs.

ae spam dont really hurt much if ppl dodge out of it or use basic counters. like prot/resist/rite/barrier/blocks.

problem is most ppl back pedal. :/ unlike fps games, backpedalling here is slow mo unless action cam.

also ae spam works only if the team has enough players.

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:neither. :/

players need to give effort to learn the wvw mechanics.

111 is now 3 ppl. damage has been systematically reduced since pre hot.

nos > few.team synergy > random builds.voice team > pugs.

But if damage get reduced it will force players to even try to stack more spammy aoe builds, and players that won’t stack that much for oveperformance, their targets will walk in top of the aoe with loads of overhealing.

In these 2 options imo maintain damage but force some aoe spam builds like scourges o have smaller aoes would be the clever way to go., they would have to play better than stack and spam.

Either way Staff ele will hurt when Showering fury on a WvW wall defender lol.

FPS can also be improved by removing the AoE damage calculation all together. Just give whatever AoE attack a set amount of damage that isnt further affected by crit, armor, or protection. That way the target cap can be increased.

Everyone that thinks damage is a problem and tries to alter it in someway either by lowering it (or shrinking the AoE circles), needs to remember, you aren't just being hit by 1 player, you're being hit by a multitude of players. In actuality, armor far outweighs damage in this game, and we know this because a zerk player will do less damage to a player wearing say PvT gear, than the PvT player will do to them. It's hard to justify scaling down damage if one is wearing full zerk gear, hits a full tanky gear player, and hits them on average of 500-1500 damage. That should never happen. At the same time though, if get 10-15 players dropping AoE spam on a player for 500-1500 per hit, that tanky player will vaporize. Then we see people screaming that damage is too high; not it isn't, it's the fact you were hit by 10-15 people at once. An example, a single shade scourge bomb (the one people keep saying needs nerfs), does less damage than a single CoR on a 4s cooldown. However, that CoR when dished out on a typical WvW group wearing typical armor won't crack 3k, not unless the players leaning more towards being glassy. 3K against a single target is anything but OP, but what if you're being hit by 4-5 of them at once...

The solution is then not to continually lower damage by one means or the other; the solution is break up into smaller groups and other groups and take objectives, rather than zerg-balling around.

One could introduce a diminishing returns mechanic for overlapping AoEs with regards to both damage and hard CC generated by players of the same profession. That way the damage isn't nerfed in small scale.

@"DeadlySynz.3471" said:The solution is then not to continually lower damage by one means or the other; the solution is break up into smaller groups and other groups and take objectives, rather than zerg-balling around.Nice pipe dream, too bad nobody's going to do that when they know they could just zerg up and win. More players are interested in farming bags than either ppt or "fair" fights. I'm all for breaking people into smaller groups, but we'd need to give players a reason to.

~ Kovu

It depends on your playstyle, and if you are running in a group. If you are running in a group, it will depend on your group comp. If you are a roamer, then you will depend more on high burst skills rather than AoE. If you prefer to zerg, you will focus on aoe to take out more targets at once. The better your group comp the more damage you will put out even if your stats are not full DPS. To answer the OPS question, both are important.

everybody hates WoW, but I like how they had a stat specifically for reducing damage from players. GW2 WvW need this. Need a Stat that does damage reduction differently then in PvE. Protection and Toughness work the same in PvP as in PvE which is the flaw in that stat.

no change. :/ why cant ppl just get good?

Solo roam . . .

@Kovu.7560 said:One could introduce a diminishing returns mechanic for overlapping AoEs with regards to both damage and hard CC generated by players of the same profession. That way the damage isn't nerfed in small scale.

You mean like when 6 people are standing in 5-man aoe, the 6th one takes no damage diminishing returns?

@Knighthonor.4061 said:everybody hates WoW, but I like how they had a stat specifically for reducing damage from players. GW2 WvW need this. Need a Stat that does damage reduction differently then in PvE. Protection and Toughness work the same in PvP as in PvE which is the flaw in that stat.

Does WoW also have dodge rolls, heal skill on every class, ability to move while casting skills etc?

The zerg AoE red carpet of death (or slugslime after a zerg, depending on how you see it) isnt IMO a matter of either these things - it's all about the duration.

We wouldnt have anywhere near this "problem" if AoE was simply boom damage and that's it. The scourge stands for about 90% of it.

@steki.1478 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:One could introduce a diminishing returns mechanic for overlapping AoEs with regards to both damage and hard CC generated by players of the same profession. That way the damage isn't nerfed in small scale.

@Knighthonor.4061 said:everybody hates WoW, but I like how they had a stat specifically for reducing damage from players. GW2 WvW need this. Need a Stat that does damage reduction differently then in PvE. Protection and Toughness work the same in PvP as in PvE which is the flaw in that stat.

Dont know about now, but at one point everybody had access to outside healing since they had dirrect healing skills, and in WoW there were multiple ways to avoid damage such as Parrying, dodging, and other skills that just upright made you immune to damage. Some skills allow movement while casting.Damage reduction stat specific to PvP damage would be a wonderful addition in WvW.

@steki.1478 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:One could introduce a diminishing returns mechanic for overlapping AoEs with regards to both damage and hard CC generated by players of the same profession. That way the damage isn't nerfed in small scale.

@Knighthonor.4061 said:everybody hates WoW, but I like how they had a stat specifically for reducing damage from players. GW2 WvW need this. Need a Stat that does damage reduction differently then in PvE. Protection and Toughness work the same in PvP as in PvE which is the flaw in that stat.

wow classes are broken. i reached mythic in 2 months on bfa. its very easy.

but they do battlegrounds right.

50vs50 queue <3 just 5 to 10 minutes wait.

just like pvp

In general, smaller sizes but ...Different abilities obviously needs different treatment so what would be a better general approach is kind of moot.

Also, if a big balance overhaul was to come to WvW (to the competetive modes with splits or to the game in general) the first place to start would be with the boon, condition and effects systems. Those are the big, higher-level issues and problem areas to adress first.

I can only speak from my perspective, don't want to discount your concerns, but that aoe ball is only as strong as the group/squad comp and has to be maintained. When I'm not covering or rescuing I'm picking apart the pieces to that ball and the main threat from it for me is being pulled into it, usually in response to me pulling someone else.

Given, I'm rarely inside our squads so I have a scewed take on it, but I think it's mostly fine right now. The players maintaining that ball are more dependant on the composition holding a threshold than I am and it's not hard to build and play counter to it.

If you weaken the AoEs, there is not much left of the Necromancer Elite Specialization (PoF). I do not like being rolled over by an avalanche of them either, but at least they serve a purpose this way. I do not want to reduce them to spend the rest of their life as a barrier-bot. If those AoEs would no longer cause such an immense lagg, that would really help. When a couple of them appear on screen and decide to enter Aoe-mode, I am slowed and sometimes rooted, thanks to the lagg they cause.

moar facetank moar good !

@Taobella.6597 said:Smaller AoE or less damage on AoE skills.

WvW has snowball out of control in AoE size and damage. one of them has to be fix

I would recommend we lower AoE size it much easier change for anet an it will improve FPS. :)

Lowering size would increase the dmg a single Player gets, Because less ppl stand inside of it, so the same ppl will be hit instead of many different

I would go with On-the-Fly Dynamic Balance measures vs players:

• Spread AoE Priority. If two of the same AoE stack on the same player, they would not stack. If there's 10 enemies, one would hit 5, the other one would hit the other five. If there's 7 enemies, the one with the highest damage would hit 5, the other one would hit 2. If there's 5 or less enemies, they would only be hit by the one with the highest damage. Any surplus hits that have been capped would still be able to hit NPCs, then objects, trying to waste as few hits as possible.
• Critical Damage Proration. Each skill that can critically hit would receive a 'critical proration' value, starting with a default value for all skills as a baseline. The higher the value, the less damage it will do when stacked after other critical hits within a short time. The faster the hits the greater the effect. So using 3 skills with 0 activation time within less than 1s would do less damage than using them within 3s. The effect would not be very noticeable 1v1s, tho. Hitting disabled enemies would also slightly increase the effect, but additively, not multiplicatively.
• Condition Stacking. Limit how much each single condition can stack on a player, and how many stacks a player can have in total between all conditions. I'd go with a cap of 25 for each condition, and 50 across all conditions.
• Cowardice. A new hidden WvW effect would trigger whenever you hit an enemy. It will count the number of ally players within 600 units and the number of enemies within 600 units of your primary target that are on their seam team. If the difference is more than double in your favour (11vs5, 25vs12, 50vs24, etc), the hidden effect will give you a stack of Cowardice.
  • Each stack of Cowardice will last 5 seconds and gain +1s every time you hit an enemy.
  • Cowardice discourages relying on stacking numbers with harsh deterring effects, but it will not affect a 'permanent base build': equipment, upgrades, skills and traits.
    • At 10 stacks, it disables temporary bonuses like Objective Auras and Nourishment/Enhancement effects.
    • At 25 stacks, it also freezes participation gains, disables enemy drops, removes WXP gains, and prevents gaining warscore from kills.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:I would go with On-the-Fly Dynamic Balance measures vs players:

• Spread AoE Priority. If two of the same AoE stack on the same player, they would not stack. If there's 10 enemies, one would hit 5, the other one would hit the other five. If there's 7 enemies, the one with the highest damage would hit 5, the other one would hit 2. If there's 5 or less enemies, they would only be hit by the one with the highest damage. Any surplus hits that have been capped would still be able to hit NPCs, then objects, trying to waste as few hits as possible.
• Critical Damage Proration. Each skill that can critically hit would receive a 'critical proration' value, starting with a default value for all skills as a baseline. The higher the value, the less damage it will do when stacked after other critical hits within a short time. The faster the hits the greater the effect. So using 3 skills with 0 activation time within less than 1s would do less damage than using them within 3s. The effect would not be very noticeable 1v1s, tho. Hitting disabled enemies would also slightly increase the effect, but additively, not multiplicatively.
• Condition Stacking. Limit how much each single condition can stack on a player, and how many stacks a player can have in total between all conditions. I'd go with a cap of 25 for each condition, and 50 across all conditions.
• Cowardice. A new hidden WvW effect would trigger whenever you hit an enemy. It will count the number of ally players within 600 units and the number of enemies within 600 units of your primary target that are on their seam team. If the difference is more than double in your favour (11vs5, 25vs12, 50vs24, etc), the hidden effect will give you a stack of Cowardice.
  • Each stack of Cowardice will last 5 seconds and gain +1s every time you hit an enemy.
  • Cowardice discourages relying on stacking numbers with harsh deterring effects, but it will not affect a 'permanent base build': equipment, upgrades, skills and traits.
    • At 10 stacks, it disables temporary bonuses like Objective Auras and Nourishment/Enhancement effects.
    • At 25 stacks, it also freezes participation gains, disables enemy drops, removes WXP gains, and prevents gaining warscore from kills.

Or, how to to clog the game with so many convoluted mechanics that no one want to play it anymore.

problem isnt simply ae or numbers, but the number of good players who believe they do good but actually are still plebs in the wvw side.

good players carry a team.

i.e. a group of 20. can hold its own for awhile against bigger numbers but a group of 20 who half only know what to do, will have 10 dead weight. unless the 10 remaining are core group in coms and experienced, they will lose.

i mean when the players i am with in coms know and do what i say, its pretty much a win even fighting 1.5 to 2x our numbers. but if we have players who are geared improperly, using the wrong traits, weapon sets, food when we fight, we lose.

of course i already accept we cant fight 35+ because we're normally 10 to 20 only. because pugs either push with you or leave you hanging.

so situational awareness and experience count a lot in these things.

bad players exist. and even if you do it perfectly, you can still lose, that just how things are.

so dont over nerf damage or ae. instead investigate if your pug population are good at fighting or pve or other stuff.

wvw population need to take an interest in this. a server or guild with experienced players will be overwhelming against others. i.e. bg na and wsr in eu.