Bull's Charge: From decent to absolutely necessary? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Bull's Charge: From decent to absolutely necessary?

Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭

Remember when it was possible to headshot or blind them? But for most, can still use a wall to stop the skill altogether? Why is it that everything have to gain evade even when it makes the least sense.

It honestly just encourages nothing but power creep when you give skills the must absolutely use because evade frames. Bull's Charge at first was still a great skill when not stupidly used, but now it can be stupidly used rather than consciously having in mind that you're literally charging in a straight line at your target as an unstoppable force, but what would it be like if it was actually an unstoppable force and not some ninja shenanigans, because in my honest opinion I think Stability should have been the buff this skill deserve. In all the following contexts that it can be basically stopped by another AoE of denial while being such an oppressive tool combined but the rest of the CC chain.

Coming from what it used to be, it just feels annoying how tables have turned for something that was good to simply plain meta. It would be nice to keep some counter play in place considering that with the current things Warrior (Mostly Spellbreaker anyway.) have, it would still make the skill great to use, just not braindead to the point where nothing but evades mitigates the huge clunky hitbox that drags around walls, pillars and through some thin obstacles.

I can see why there is an evade, but it still doesn't really feel like it belongs there when the skill could be used in the same fashion with different benefits. Some professions could benefit from the ability to counter play it too with more than just evades, a lot of them already being at the bottom of the current meta anyway.

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Comments

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Remember when it was possible to headshot or blind them? But for most, can still use a wall to stop the skill altogether? Why is it that everything have to gain evade even when it makes the least sense.

    It honestly just encourages nothing but power creep when you give skills the must absolutely use because evade frames. Bull's Charge at first was still a great skill when not stupidly used, but now it can be stupidly used rather than consciously having in mind that you're literally charging in a straight line at your target as an unstoppable force, but what would it be like if it was actually an unstoppable force and not some ninja shenanigans, because in my honest opinion I think Stability should have been the buff this skill deserve. In all the following contexts that it can be basically stopped by another AoE of denial while being such an oppressive tool combined but the rest of the CC chain.

    Coming from what it used to be, it just feels annoying how tables have turned for something that was good to simply plain meta. It would be nice to keep some counter play in place considering that with the current things Warrior (Mostly Spellbreaker anyway.) have, it would still make the skill great to use, just not braindead to the point where nothing but evades mitigates the huge clunky hitbox that drags around walls, pillars and through some thin obstacles.

    I can see why there is an evade, but it still doesn't really feel like it belongs there when the skill could be used in the same fashion with different benefits. Some professions could benefit from the ability to counter play it too with more than just evades, a lot of them already being at the bottom of the current meta anyway.

    I would agree, bull's charge does everything.
    you can use it out of combat for mobility, in combat to gapclose, its a LONG stun, amazing damage, dodge and with trait also damage buff, literarly everything packed into 1 ability :D

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Remember when it was possible to headshot or blind them? But for most, can still use a wall to stop the skill altogether? Why is it that everything have to gain evade even when it makes the least sense.

    It honestly just encourages nothing but power creep when you give skills the must absolutely use because evade frames. Bull's Charge at first was still a great skill when not stupidly used, but now it can be stupidly used rather than consciously having in mind that you're literally charging in a straight line at your target as an unstoppable force, but what would it be like if it was actually an unstoppable force and not some ninja shenanigans, because in my honest opinion I think Stability should have been the buff this skill deserve. In all the following contexts that it can be basically stopped by another AoE of denial while being such an oppressive tool combined but the rest of the CC chain.

    Coming from what it used to be, it just feels annoying how tables have turned for something that was good to simply plain meta. It would be nice to keep some counter play in place considering that with the current things Warrior (Mostly Spellbreaker anyway.) have, it would still make the skill great to use, just not braindead to the point where nothing but evades mitigates the huge clunky hitbox that drags around walls, pillars and through some thin obstacles.

    I can see why there is an evade, but it still doesn't really feel like it belongs there when the skill could be used in the same fashion with different benefits. Some professions could benefit from the ability to counter play it too with more than just evades, a lot of them already being at the bottom of the current meta anyway.

    The problem with counterplaying a warrior is that it has the least number of actions of any class. Its actions SHOULD be the hardest to counterplay in all the game because the closer you get to fewer and fewer actions you can take, the more and more severe not being able to benefit from them.

    Even before this said change, things we're fine for the most part, this leaves an overtuned impression.

  • nthmetal.9652nthmetal.9652 Member ✭✭✭

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    You know what would be healthy for this game and its gameplay? Removing/toning down significantly all this evade/cc/invul/boon spam nonsense that was introduced with HoT elite specs and then amplified with PoF elite specs even more. This way, there would be no need for evade on Bull's Charge and the counterplay would be simpler, everything would be simpler and required more brain at the same time, how ironic. Unfortunately, after all those years and what we have been through, I don't see that happening.

    That is a big one. I fully agree, but if you do that, you also need to tone down the damage being dished out. You also need to tone down the amount of condis being dished out. Test it, in scenarios, where these issues play a big role: In WvW. You need the invulns, because the AoE zones in zergfights turn so hot, that you die too easily. You need the evades or blocks, because a single skill from certain classes can one- or two-shot you.

    And as to bull charge being necessary? I've never used it, nor do I see many other spellbreakers using it much. Maybe it's more necessary for berserkers; don't see too many of those around. Outside of WvW, I've also never seen use for it personally. I do pretty well without Bull Charge. I'd say it's far from meta for many warrior builds out there.

    "and then we know that we have looked back through the ivory gates into that world of wonder which was ours before we were wise and unhappy"
    -- H. P. Lovecraft - Celephais

  • TheBravery.9615TheBravery.9615 Member ✭✭✭

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    Yes, let's complain about everything because we can't block/dodge/evade/etc in this spam clown fiesta balance, right? You can interrupt the skill right at the beginning or at its very end, it is not easy but it is possible.

    You know what would be healthy for this game and its gameplay? Removing/toning down significantly all this evade/cc/invul/boon spam nonsense that was introduced with HoT elite specs and then amplified with PoF elite specs even more. This way, there would be no need for evade on Bull's Charge and the counterplay would be simpler, everything would be simpler and required more brain at the same time, how ironic. Unfortunately, after all those years and what we have been through, I don't see that happening.

    We should just give everyone a stick

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well, you wont stop a charging bull so with that logic, they added an evade frame :D

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The problem with counterplaying a warrior is that it has the least number of actions of any class. Its actions SHOULD be the hardest to counterplay in all the game because the closer you get to fewer and fewer actions you can take, the more and more severe not being able to benefit from them.

    Warrior also has the shortest cooldowns (where they apply, so excluding Thief and Revenant to some degree) out of all classes. Just looking at GS, it doesn't have a single skill with 20+ seconds of cooldown with the longest cooldown out of all weapon skills at 25 seconds. In comparison, a Guardian has 30+ seconds on almost half of skill 5's, and the longest cooldown is 45 seconds.

  • @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The problem with counterplaying a warrior is that it has the least number of actions of any class. Its actions SHOULD be the hardest to counterplay in all the game because the closer you get to fewer and fewer actions you can take, the more and more severe not being able to benefit from them.

    Warrior also has the shortest cooldowns (where they apply, so excluding Thief and Revenant to some degree) out of all classes. Just looking at GS, it doesn't have a single skill with 20+ seconds of cooldown with the longest cooldown out of all weapon skills at 25 seconds. In comparison, a Guardian has 30+ seconds on almost half of skill 5's, and the longest cooldown is 45 seconds.

    Well they also don't have as many skills to have cooldowns, if they had longer cooldowns there would be 10-15s where they would only be able to spam 1 and maybe 2.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The problem with counterplaying a warrior is that it has the least number of actions of any class. Its actions SHOULD be the hardest to counterplay in all the game because the closer you get to fewer and fewer actions you can take, the more and more severe not being able to benefit from them.

    Warrior also has the shortest cooldowns (where they apply, so excluding Thief and Revenant to some degree) out of all classes. Just looking at GS, it doesn't have a single skill with 20+ seconds of cooldown with the longest cooldown out of all weapon skills at 25 seconds. In comparison, a Guardian has 30+ seconds on almost half of skill 5's, and the longest cooldown is 45 seconds.

    Well they also don't have as many skills to have cooldowns, if they had longer cooldowns there would be 10-15s where they would only be able to spam 1 and maybe 2.

    Yes, that is exactly what I intended to say. Somehow I forgot.

  • cryorion.9532cryorion.9532 Member ✭✭✭

    @TheBravery.9615 said:

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    Yes, let's complain about everything because we can't block/dodge/evade/etc in this spam clown fiesta balance, right? You can interrupt the skill right at the beginning or at its very end, it is not easy but it is possible.

    You know what would be healthy for this game and its gameplay? Removing/toning down significantly all this evade/cc/invul/boon spam nonsense that was introduced with HoT elite specs and then amplified with PoF elite specs even more. This way, there would be no need for evade on Bull's Charge and the counterplay would be simpler, everything would be simpler and required more brain at the same time, how ironic. Unfortunately, after all those years and what we have been through, I don't see that happening.

    We should just give everyone a stick

    That's a silly simplification. Was core gw2 like everyone playing with stick? There will be always a flavor.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    Well, you wont stop a charging bull so with that logic, they added an evade frame :D

    Then there's the men in red capes that dance around charging bulls until they're tired. So even bulls irl have counterplay hehe

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    Well, you wont stop a charging bull so with that logic, they added an evade frame :D

    Then there's the men in red capes that dance around charging bulls until they're tired. So even bulls irl have counterplay hehe

    So what you're saying is....

    Just Dodge?

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    Well, you wont stop a charging bull so with that logic, they added an evade frame :D

    Then there's the men in red capes that dance around charging bulls until they're tired. So even bulls irl have counterplay hehe

    So what you're saying is....

    Just Dodge?

    That's right, he didn't really stop the bull, the matador just dodged!

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    Well, you wont stop a charging bull so with that logic, they added an evade frame :D

    Then there's the men in red capes that dance around charging bulls until they're tired. So even bulls irl have counterplay hehe

    So what you're saying is....

    Just Dodge?

    Just dodge 4Head

    All meme's aside, I think the evade frames from Bull's Charge should be taken out. It can keep its damage and its stun duration, then it would really put the warriors in a focus on utilizing the skill in the most opportune time to punish the other players' sloppy play, or screw ups.
    I also think though, that in order for this to happen, the overall CC that is currently in the game needs some big time tone downs.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ok, removed evade frame and make it to shadow step. Bulls drop

  • @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    Well, you wont stop a charging bull so with that logic, they added an evade frame :D

    Then there's the men in red capes that dance around charging bulls until they're tired. So even bulls irl have counterplay hehe

    So what you're saying is....

    Just Dodge?

    Just dodge 4Head

    All meme's aside, I think the evade frames from Bull's Charge should be taken out. It can keep its damage and its stun duration, then it would really put the warriors in a focus on utilizing the skill in the most opportune time to punish the other players' sloppy play, or screw ups.
    I also think though, that in order for this to happen, the overall CC that is currently in the game needs some big time tone downs.

    Its more of a call out to whenever someone QQs on another profession's forum about X skill being OP and members of that profession say "Just Dodge."

    Every single time.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    Yes, let's complain about everything because we can't block/dodge/evade/etc in this spam clown fiesta balance, right? You can interrupt the skill right at the beginning or at its very end, it is not easy but it is possible.

    You know what would be healthy for this game and its gameplay? Removing/toning down significantly all this evade/cc/invul/boon spam nonsense that was introduced with HoT elite specs and then amplified with PoF elite specs even more. This way, there would be no need for evade on Bull's Charge and the counterplay would be simpler, everything would be simpler and required more brain at the same time, how ironic. Unfortunately, after all those years and what we have been through, I don't see that happening.

    I'd be more happy using it if it had stability than an evade frame to be more thoughtfully used, for the sake of what it implies and have healthy counter play to the already plentiful CC available instead of being such a one sided result, getting relentlessly to the target is how I feel like this skill should be used and evade doesn't allow that against wards/AoE CC denial. Not saying to remove evade from the skill and call it a day. For me this is just a suggestion, it ain't stopping me from enjoying the game. In fact, most of the time I purposefully just get knocked down by it to save an evade because the following isn't really worth doing since there's always a CC or Whirlwind afterwards with no reasons to even try countering, stunbreak and move out of it for things that are much more lethal on the table.

  • If you're unable to dodge a 1 sec cast skill that gains nothing from quickness, you're not supposed to play PvP or WvW. If you're out of dodges because you keep wasting em for no reason that's a l2p issue. Given the state of the other classes broken ability's I'd much rather fight a good warrior then some permanently stealthing beginner with a one shot, one trick pony build. But i guess it's just me go a head and complain on Bull Charge it's a free world and there's always the option to change class ones the complainers wins.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Counter Terrorist.7421 said:
    If you're unable to dodge a 1 sec cast skill that gains nothing from quickness, you're not supposed to play PvP or WvW. If you're out of dodges because you keep wasting em for no reason that's a l2p issue. Given the state of the other classes broken ability's I'd much rather fight a good warrior then some permanently stealthing beginner with a one shot, one trick pony build. But i guess it's just me go a head and complain on Bull Charge it's a free world and there's always the option to change class ones the complainers wins.

    You also have to consider that saving your dodges just for Bull's Charge is not ideal either. Warriors weapon skills hit pretty hard, especially when swapped to the greatsword (gaining might on crits, GS having a natural heavy hitting mechanic to it) and as well the warrior's burst skills that are up every 5 or so seconds. Those also hit for a pretty decent chunk. Failure to dodge any of the Warrior's other hard hitting skills will get you killed guaranteed. Not to mention if you are hit with a burst skill (it's bound to happen at some point), you are also hit with Magebane Tether, which if I'm not mistaken, grants you might as well every second that the tether is on the target.
    Also, with Spellbreaker's theme around removing boons, your CCs and removing boons will grant you Attacker's Insight, increasing your overall damage output by increasing your power and ferocity by 45 for 15 seconds. Max stacks of 5, this comes out to be a 225 increase at 5 stacks for both stats.
    Also considering the Strength trait line, might applied to you grants you 10 more power, so you gain 40 power for each stack of might, and you can hold a lot of might pretty much indefinitely.
    Also considering Forceful Greatsword grants you 120 power, double this amount when wielding a Greatsword.
    Then also considering Peak Performance increases the damage output of your attacks by 10% after you use a physical skill.

    I agree with you on other things overperforming as well, Holosmith being the big offender. 5k auto chains coupled with quickness is just insane. Holo Leap on a 2s cd being able to deal 3k or more, that's insane. Corona burst able to hit somewhere around 3k 2x evry 6s and also grant stab on hit is kind of crazy too. Honestly, imo, the only decently balanced skill in the forge skill bar is skill 5, dealing only around 2-2.5k while critting (100% chance to do so) coupled with its CC is not too bad. However, because other things are stupidly broken at the moment doesn't really justify why everything else also needs to be a bit unfair. Nerf the things that need proper nerfs, bring things down and not up, and then tweak up from there if necessary.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Counter Terrorist.7421 said:
    If you're unable to dodge a 1 sec cast skill that gains nothing from quickness, you're not supposed to play PvP or WvW. If you're out of dodges because you keep wasting em for no reason that's a l2p issue. Given the state of the other classes broken ability's I'd much rather fight a good warrior then some permanently stealthing beginner with a one shot, one trick pony build. But i guess it's just me go a head and complain on Bull Charge it's a free world and there's always the option to change class ones the complainers wins.

    You also have to consider that saving your dodges just for Bull's Charge is not ideal either. Warriors weapon skills hit pretty hard, especially when swapped to the greatsword (gaining might on crits, GS having a natural heavy hitting mechanic to it) and as well the warrior's burst skills that are up every 5 or so seconds. Those also hit for a pretty decent chunk. Failure to dodge any of the Warrior's other hard hitting skills will get you killed guaranteed. Not to mention if you are hit with a burst skill (it's bound to happen at some point), you are also hit with Magebane Tether, which if I'm not mistaken, grants you might as well every second that the tether is on the target.
    Also, with Spellbreaker's theme around removing boons, your CCs and removing boons will grant you Attacker's Insight, increasing your overall damage output by increasing your power and ferocity by 45 for 15 seconds. Max stacks of 5, this comes out to be a 225 increase at 5 stacks for both stats.
    Also considering the Strength trait line, might applied to you grants you 10 more power, so you gain 40 power for each stack of might, and you can hold a lot of might pretty much indefinitely.
    Also considering Forceful Greatsword grants you 120 power, double this amount when wielding a Greatsword.
    Then also considering Peak Performance increases the damage output of your attacks by 10% after you use a physical skill.

    I agree with you on other things overperforming as well, Holosmith being the big offender. 5k auto chains coupled with quickness is just insane. Holo Leap on a 2s cd being able to deal 3k or more, that's insane. Corona burst able to hit somewhere around 3k 2x evry 6s and also grant stab on hit is kind of crazy too. Honestly, imo, the only decently balanced skill in the forge skill bar is skill 5, dealing only around 2-2.5k while critting (100% chance to do so) coupled with its CC is not too bad. However, because other things are stupidly broken at the moment doesn't really justify why everything else also needs to be a bit unfair. Nerf the things that need proper nerfs, bring things down and not up, and then tweak up from there if necessary.

    Well given the current state of the game the class is close to unusable in my opinion as for PvP/WvW given the fact that I'm able to do so much better damage that's less telegraphed on other classes while retaining the same sort of sustains as well as spammable evades by using stronger classes. However I've always hated Magebane Tether as i find it cheap to get a free hard CC every 12 sec, the new meta as for warrior relies on this Magebane Tether to sustain at all and be able to ditch out any sort of meaningful damage thanks to the Pinnacle of strength minor trait as well as the might produced by this ability. If that was to be removed the spellbreaker would need some extreme compensations to even be playable. It would reach a new low where i rather play renegade over spellbreaker. But if there ever was anything that had a justified nerf deserved as for spellbreaker ever since the CD increase on Full Tickle it would be Magebane Tether the one ability that would of made sense to nerf years ago.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2019

    such a beginner question, with stances duration halved and adding evade to bullcharge and buffed shake it off for replacing endure pain and berserker stance, we finally achieved something that all warriors have long wanted without breaking balance.
    an actual working build without stances ( which warrior has been stuck with for more then half decade)

    if you ask me, i think more utilities/weapon skills should have some kind of damage mitigation.
    a stab would just make it a worse version of stomp btw

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    Well, you wont stop a charging bull so with that logic, they added an evade frame :D

    Then there's the men in red capes that dance around charging bulls until they're tired. So even bulls irl have counterplay hehe

    So what you're saying is....

    Just Dodge?

    Just dodge 4Head

    All meme's aside, I think the evade frames from Bull's Charge should be taken out. It can keep its damage and its stun duration, then it would really put the warriors in a focus on utilizing the skill in the most opportune time to punish the other players' sloppy play, or screw ups.
    I also think though, that in order for this to happen, the overall CC that is currently in the game needs some big time tone downs.

    Its more of a call out to whenever someone QQs on another profession's forum about X skill being OP and members of that profession say "Just Dodge."

    Every single time.

    Thats not always true. Sometimes you tell them to dodge twice.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2019

    @starlinvf.1358 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    Well, you wont stop a charging bull so with that logic, they added an evade frame :D

    Then there's the men in red capes that dance around charging bulls until they're tired. So even bulls irl have counterplay hehe

    So what you're saying is....

    Just Dodge?

    Just dodge 4Head

    All meme's aside, I think the evade frames from Bull's Charge should be taken out. It can keep its damage and its stun duration, then it would really put the warriors in a focus on utilizing the skill in the most opportune time to punish the other players' sloppy play, or screw ups.
    I also think though, that in order for this to happen, the overall CC that is currently in the game needs some big time tone downs.

    Its more of a call out to whenever someone QQs on another profession's forum about X skill being OP and members of that profession say "Just Dodge."

    Every single time.

    Thats not always true. Sometimes you tell them to dodge twice.

    Able to restore 50% endurance after those double dodge makes it fine to do,considering what you run..offcourse.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    @Counter Terrorist.7421 said:
    If you're unable to dodge a 1 sec cast skill that gains nothing from quickness, you're not supposed to play PvP or WvW. If you're out of dodges because you keep wasting em for no reason that's a l2p issue. Given the state of the other classes broken ability's I'd much rather fight a good warrior then some permanently stealthing beginner with a one shot, one trick pony build. But i guess it's just me go a head and complain on Bull Charge it's a free world and there's always the option to change class ones the complainers wins.

    It's just as easy to ditch out assumptions when I am trying to make the skill work as it should be. Evade makes it a clunky mess with having little counter play other than "just dodge lol", if you're afraid to get blind and such, making it remove blind for the hit like the old Wild Blow while still giving stability instead of a evade would be something preferable. It can give it plenty of other opportunity as the name goes while making less skills irrelevant because it stops being "just dodge lol".

    For warrior being the best example, Whirlwind. Even if Anet tries their best to make hammer "viable", a CC machine and actually a weapon that hits stronger in some aspects, people still prefer the Minor evade on GS, just because it brings that much sustain to the table in the eyes of the player, which it doesn't really, it's just a safer way to play the profession. Bet that if Earthshaker was to gain an evade, you would see Hammer used a LOT more, perhaps GS would become irrelevant and just be see as the better mobility weapon because Hammer ability to disable, weaken people and deal more damage overall in duels is a better call, while having a comparable evade.

    This isn't a complain about being out of dodges, this is a complain about how one skill is seeing so much use now even though it was already good before but has less counterplay to it while it could have had better benefits rather than just a evade. Like I said before, I'm usually better off left hit by the skill because there's no reason to try and stop a warrior doing it and most of em try to keep the CC chain going following another rather than a burst and since I main Rev, they waste those CC's in the following of the Blind typically. Normally using stuns, Bullscharge is already long lasting so they assume people would stunbreak it and prefer to just CC again which makes the process boring when the skill could have better benefits, like out of having stability or/and the immune to blind which makes Warrior an unstoppable force rather than some Ninja apparently.

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    such a beginner question, with stances duration halved and adding evade to bullcharge and buffed shake it off for replacing endure pain and berserker stance, we finally achieved something that all warriors have long wanted without breaking balance.
    an actual working build without stances ( which warrior has been stuck with for more then half decade)

    if you ask me, i think more utilities/weapon skills should have some kind of damage mitigation.
    a stab would just make it a worse version of stomp btw

    Yet Stomp doesn't get stopped by CC AoE, which is the reason why Evade doesn't have it's place when you're charging at people. Stomp isn't a bad skill either if that's what you mean, it takes application to be effective which people would rather just have Balanced Stance for finishing and such.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    Im not sure what exactle the fuss is about, but to my knowlegde bullscharge had the evadeframe for a loooong time now,if not since release.
    Did they enhance the duration of the evade?

  • @RedShark.9548 said:
    Im not sure what exactle the fuss is about, but to my knowlegde bullscharge had the evadeframe for a loooong time now,if not since release.
    Did they enhance the duration of the evade?

    It did not have evade at launch I believe.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:
    Im not sure what exactle the fuss is about, but to my knowlegde bullscharge had the evadeframe for a loooong time now,if not since release.
    Did they enhance the duration of the evade?

    It did not have evade at launch I believe.

    Im 100% sure it had an evade for years now.

  • https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bull's_Charge

    Since August 8th 2017, why it is being debated now is a different story.

  • @Shao.7236 said:
    Remember when it was possible to headshot or blind them? But for most, can still use a wall to stop the skill altogether? Why is it that everything have to gain evade even when it makes the least sense.

    It honestly just encourages nothing but power creep when you give skills the must absolutely use because evade frames. Bull's Charge at first was still a great skill when not stupidly used, but now it can be stupidly used rather than consciously having in mind that you're literally charging in a straight line at your target as an unstoppable force, but what would it be like if it was actually an unstoppable force and not some ninja shenanigans, because in my honest opinion I think Stability should have been the buff this skill deserve. In all the following contexts that it can be basically stopped by another AoE of denial while being such an oppressive tool combined but the rest of the CC chain.

    Coming from what it used to be, it just feels annoying how tables have turned for something that was good to simply plain meta. It would be nice to keep some counter play in place considering that with the current things Warrior (Mostly Spellbreaker anyway.) have, it would still make the skill great to use, just not braindead to the point where nothing but evades mitigates the huge clunky hitbox that drags around walls, pillars and through some thin obstacles.

    I can see why there is an evade, but it still doesn't really feel like it belongs there when the skill could be used in the same fashion with different benefits. Some professions could benefit from the ability to counter play it too with more than just evades, a lot of them already being at the bottom of the current meta anyway.

    Tell me your class and I will point out an OP skill of it.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019

    @Arekai.5698 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Remember when it was possible to headshot or blind them? But for most, can still use a wall to stop the skill altogether? Why is it that everything have to gain evade even when it makes the least sense.

    It honestly just encourages nothing but power creep when you give skills the must absolutely use because evade frames. Bull's Charge at first was still a great skill when not stupidly used, but now it can be stupidly used rather than consciously having in mind that you're literally charging in a straight line at your target as an unstoppable force, but what would it be like if it was actually an unstoppable force and not some ninja shenanigans, because in my honest opinion I think Stability should have been the buff this skill deserve. In all the following contexts that it can be basically stopped by another AoE of denial while being such an oppressive tool combined but the rest of the CC chain.

    Coming from what it used to be, it just feels annoying how tables have turned for something that was good to simply plain meta. It would be nice to keep some counter play in place considering that with the current things Warrior (Mostly Spellbreaker anyway.) have, it would still make the skill great to use, just not braindead to the point where nothing but evades mitigates the huge clunky hitbox that drags around walls, pillars and through some thin obstacles.

    I can see why there is an evade, but it still doesn't really feel like it belongs there when the skill could be used in the same fashion with different benefits. Some professions could benefit from the ability to counter play it too with more than just evades, a lot of them already being at the bottom of the current meta anyway.

    Tell me your class and I will point out an OP skill of it.

    I know what's OP and have already been asking for a nerf so that more of it is relevant. This is pointless to attempt.

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bull's_Charge

    Since August 8th 2017, why it is being debated now is a different story.

    2 years of time to evaluate and construct an opinion on it, it's almost as if the way you say it nothing is prone change or be criticized as the game move forward, which is untrue.

  • @Shao.7236 said:

    @Arekai.5698 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Remember when it was possible to headshot or blind them? But for most, can still use a wall to stop the skill altogether? Why is it that everything have to gain evade even when it makes the least sense.

    It honestly just encourages nothing but power creep when you give skills the must absolutely use because evade frames. Bull's Charge at first was still a great skill when not stupidly used, but now it can be stupidly used rather than consciously having in mind that you're literally charging in a straight line at your target as an unstoppable force, but what would it be like if it was actually an unstoppable force and not some ninja shenanigans, because in my honest opinion I think Stability should have been the buff this skill deserve. In all the following contexts that it can be basically stopped by another AoE of denial while being such an oppressive tool combined but the rest of the CC chain.

    Coming from what it used to be, it just feels annoying how tables have turned for something that was good to simply plain meta. It would be nice to keep some counter play in place considering that with the current things Warrior (Mostly Spellbreaker anyway.) have, it would still make the skill great to use, just not braindead to the point where nothing but evades mitigates the huge clunky hitbox that drags around walls, pillars and through some thin obstacles.

    I can see why there is an evade, but it still doesn't really feel like it belongs there when the skill could be used in the same fashion with different benefits. Some professions could benefit from the ability to counter play it too with more than just evades, a lot of them already being at the bottom of the current meta anyway.

    Tell me your class and I will point out an OP skill of it.

    I know what's OP and have already been asking for a nerf so that more of it is relevant. This is pointless to attempt.

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bull's_Charge

    Since August 8th 2017, why it is being debated now is a different story.

    2 years of time to evaluate and construct an opinion on it, it's almost as if the way you say it nothing is prone change or be criticized as the game move forward, which is untrue.

    Sorry mate, you're getting called out for complaining about something that's been in the game for 2 years that has been uncontroversial for those 2 years.

    Warrior is best in melee, and they need the tools to get there. This is one of those tools. Your protestations are roughly equivalent to a warrior going to the ranger forum to cry about knockback arrow on Ranger longbow, which is one of their tools to stay at range where they function best.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    The devs read the forums this guy is actively posting on the warrior forum to boost the thread if it was the usual PVP nerf thread it would be gone by now.
    The Bull rush might need just damage nerf in PVP, removing the mobility or dodge makes it bad, without the dodge it was not picked because it was interrupted by random cc flailing it needed Balanced stance to work.
    Remember Warrior doesn't have much space to work with and the good utilities are worth way more than other professions that have multiple. You have 3 slots and they make or break the build, usually the best defensive ones are taken.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019

    watch a triple stunbreak warrior completely reckt bullcharge warrior 1v1

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    watch a triple stunbreak warrior completely reckt bullcharge warrior 1v1

    Does that include the stunbreak warriors that have bullcharge on their hot bar or not?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    watch a triple stunbreak warrior completely reckt bullcharge warrior 1v1

    Does that include the stunbreak warriors that have bullcharge on their hot bar or not?

    how does one get forth utility slots

  • @Lighter.5631 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    watch a triple stunbreak warrior completely reckt bullcharge warrior 1v1

    Does that include the stunbreak warriors that have bullcharge on their hot bar or not?

    how does one get forth utility slots

    He was making a quip on the triple stunbreak warrior having Bullscharge.

  • In WvW almost every Warrior runs Bulls Charge. You are at a great disadvantage without it, just like Greatsword. The hard CC, and gap closing ability along with the valuable evade is just too good to pass up.

    Yeah, its so common it makes fighting other Warriors very boring, but it also makes fighting certain classes actually possible, this is perhaps its greatest strength, and what also makes it mandatory on your bar.

    That's my biggest problem with the skill, it feels mandatory and if you do not take BS, it feels bad to be playing in slow motion when you cant even land Evis on a regular basis. So the skill is not so OP as much as the class needs it just to compete with our highly telegraphed mechanics in the current state of the game.

  • @sneakytails.5629 said:
    In WvW almost every Warrior runs Bulls Charge. You are at a great disadvantage without it, just like Greatsword. The hard CC, and gap closing ability along with the valuable evade is just too good to pass up.

    Yeah, its so common it makes fighting other Warriors very boring, but it also makes fighting certain classes actually possible, this is perhaps its greatest strength, and what also makes it mandatory on your bar.

    That's my biggest problem with the skill, it feels mandatory and if you do not take BS, it feels bad to be playing in slow motion when you cant even land Evis on a regular basis. So the skill is not so OP as much as the class needs it just to compete with our highly telegraphed mechanics in the current state of the game.

    I honestly never see other warriors running Bulls Charge... Maybe a core warrior would, but you don't usually see them anymore.

  • KelyNeli.4516KelyNeli.4516 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2019

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The problem with counterplaying a warrior is that it has the least number of actions of any class. Its actions SHOULD be the hardest to counterplay in all the game because the closer you get to fewer and fewer actions you can take, the more and more severe not being able to benefit from them.

    Warrior also has the shortest cooldowns (where they apply, so excluding Thief and Revenant to some degree) out of all classes. Just looking at GS, it doesn't have a single skill with 20+ seconds of cooldown with the longest cooldown out of all weapon skills at 25 seconds. In comparison, a Guardian has 30+ seconds on almost half of skill 5's, and the longest cooldown is 45 seconds.

    Tell me.
    How on earth do you plan to land 4 and 2 skill on GS warrior?
    GS warrior is complete kitten in pvp, it is used only because it has good F1 and mobility.
    Revenant at least has all his 4 skills useful in comparison, easier to land and still deal significant amount of dmg.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KelyNeli.4516 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The problem with counterplaying a warrior is that it has the least number of actions of any class. Its actions SHOULD be the hardest to counterplay in all the game because the closer you get to fewer and fewer actions you can take, the more and more severe not being able to benefit from them.

    Warrior also has the shortest cooldowns (where they apply, so excluding Thief and Revenant to some degree) out of all classes. Just looking at GS, it doesn't have a single skill with 20+ seconds of cooldown with the longest cooldown out of all weapon skills at 25 seconds. In comparison, a Guardian has 30+ seconds on almost half of skill 5's, and the longest cooldown is 45 seconds.

    Tell me.
    How on earth do you plan to land 4 and 2 skill on GS warrior?
    GS warrior is complete kitten in pvp, it is used only because it has good F1 and mobility.
    Revenant at least has all his 4 skills useful in comparison, easier to land and still deal significant amount of dmg.

    I don't see how this has anything to do with my comment. That's a different issue.

    I made an observation about cooldowns in general on Warrior compared to something like a Guardian that has cooldowns twice the length on comparable weapon skills. Revenants cds are actually about the same as Warriors. I made no claims about how good and/or functional they are.

    PS. Are you claiming that Revs Staff 4 is easy to land and does damage?
    I can see how that would apply to Sword or Axe 4 but claiming that ALL of them do that is a bit much.

  • @Yannir.4132 are you suggesting that warrior needs longer CDs? If you want warrior to have longer CDs, then you need to offer compensation in the form of more unblockables, more damage, more cc, more condi, and/or more mobility. The option of being able to use F2-F5 would not go amiss either.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @KelyNeli.4516 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The problem with counterplaying a warrior is that it has the least number of actions of any class. Its actions SHOULD be the hardest to counterplay in all the game because the closer you get to fewer and fewer actions you can take, the more and more severe not being able to benefit from them.

    Warrior also has the shortest cooldowns (where they apply, so excluding Thief and Revenant to some degree) out of all classes. Just looking at GS, it doesn't have a single skill with 20+ seconds of cooldown with the longest cooldown out of all weapon skills at 25 seconds. In comparison, a Guardian has 30+ seconds on almost half of skill 5's, and the longest cooldown is 45 seconds.

    Tell me.
    How on earth do you plan to land 4 and 2 skill on GS warrior?
    GS warrior is complete kitten in pvp, it is used only because it has good F1 and mobility.
    Revenant at least has all his 4 skills useful in comparison, easier to land and still deal significant amount of dmg.

    I don't see how this has anything to do with my comment. That's a different issue.

    I made an observation about cooldowns in general on Warrior compared to something like a Guardian that has cooldowns twice the length on comparable weapon skills. Revenants cds are actually about the same as Warriors. I made no claims about how good and/or functional they are.

    PS. Are you claiming that Revs Staff 4 is easy to land and does damage?
    I can see how that would apply to Sword or Axe 4 but claiming that ALL of them do that is a bit much.

    Are you serious? Do you not see the difference and why warrior has lower cds?
    Pls take a look at the UI on warrior and then on guard. You see those buttons? F1-f3? Yea? Warri has 1,with spb 2 and guard has 3 and with firebrand he gets 5 new skills after activating 1 of those 3.

    Thats 15 additional skills lol, you dont even have time to press all those weapon skills, if your cds were lower. (thats not an argument to lower them, because you dont have the time anyways. just saying, incase some brain suggests that)

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    Are you serious? Do you not see the difference and why warrior has lower cds?
    Pls take a look at the UI on warrior and then on guard. You see those buttons? F1-f3? Yea? Warri has 1,with spb 2 and guard has 3 and with firebrand he gets 5 new skills after activating 1 of those 3.

    Thats 15 additional skills lol, you dont even have time to press all those weapon skills, if your cds were lower. (thats not an argument to lower them, because you dont have the time anyways. just saying, incase some brain suggests that)

    Are you really this boneheaded? Did you read the whole discussion?

    @Yannir.4132 said:
    Warrior also has the shortest cooldowns (where they apply, so excluding Thief and Revenant to some degree) out of all classes. Just looking at GS, it doesn't have a single skill with 20+ seconds of cooldown with the longest cooldown out of all weapon skills at 25 seconds. In comparison, a Guardian has 30+ seconds on almost half of skill 5's, and the longest cooldown is 45 seconds.

    See the original quote here. This an OBSERVATION. It does not include a suggestion or any sort of ulterior motive. It was a supportive argument to what Obtena said at the time, not a counter to it.
    And yes, there's a reason why Warrior has shorter cooldowns. It has less buttons so it gets to use them more often.
    If there's any sort of takeaway, it's more towards that 45 second cooldown I mentioned on Guardian. And it's not on Firebrand.

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 No, not really. I think Warriors cooldowns are fine now that Rampage is 120.
    I'm usually upfront about my suggestions so if I wanted Warrior having longer cooldowns, you wouldn't need to be asking me.
    I do hope some future Elite Specialization gives Warrior a bigger pool of buttons to press.

  • @Yannir.4132 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    Are you serious? Do you not see the difference and why warrior has lower cds?
    Pls take a look at the UI on warrior and then on guard. You see those buttons? F1-f3? Yea? Warri has 1,with spb 2 and guard has 3 and with firebrand he gets 5 new skills after activating 1 of those 3.

    Thats 15 additional skills lol, you dont even have time to press all those weapon skills, if your cds were lower. (thats not an argument to lower them, because you dont have the time anyways. just saying, incase some brain suggests that)

    Are you really this boneheaded? Did you read the whole discussion?

    @Yannir.4132 said:
    Warrior also has the shortest cooldowns (where they apply, so excluding Thief and Revenant to some degree) out of all classes. Just looking at GS, it doesn't have a single skill with 20+ seconds of cooldown with the longest cooldown out of all weapon skills at 25 seconds. In comparison, a Guardian has 30+ seconds on almost half of skill 5's, and the longest cooldown is 45 seconds.

    See the original quote here. This an OBSERVATION. It does not include a suggestion or any sort of ulterior motive. It was a supportive argument to what Obtena said at the time, not a counter to it.
    And yes, there's a reason why Warrior has shorter cooldowns. It has less buttons so it gets to use them more often.
    If there's any sort of takeaway, it's more towards that 45 second cooldown I mentioned on Guardian. And it's not on Firebrand.

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 No, not really. I think Warriors cooldowns are fine now that Rampage is 120.
    I'm usually upfront about my suggestions so if I wanted Warrior having longer cooldowns, you wouldn't need to be asking me.
    I do hope some future Elite Specialization gives Warrior a bigger pool of buttons to press.

    Well we had banners as bundles and instead of buffing them to make them useful they nerfed them heavily to make them ‘easier’ to use, so I do not foresee more buttons to push.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    Are you serious? Do you not see the difference and why warrior has lower cds?
    Pls take a look at the UI on warrior and then on guard. You see those buttons? F1-f3? Yea? Warri has 1,with spb 2 and guard has 3 and with firebrand he gets 5 new skills after activating 1 of those 3.

    Thats 15 additional skills lol, you dont even have time to press all those weapon skills, if your cds were lower. (thats not an argument to lower them, because you dont have the time anyways. just saying, incase some brain suggests that)

    Are you really this boneheaded? Did you read the whole discussion?

    @Yannir.4132 said:
    Warrior also has the shortest cooldowns (where they apply, so excluding Thief and Revenant to some degree) out of all classes. Just looking at GS, it doesn't have a single skill with 20+ seconds of cooldown with the longest cooldown out of all weapon skills at 25 seconds. In comparison, a Guardian has 30+ seconds on almost half of skill 5's, and the longest cooldown is 45 seconds.

    See the original quote here. This an OBSERVATION. It does not include a suggestion or any sort of ulterior motive. It was a supportive argument to what Obtena said at the time, not a counter to it.
    And yes, there's a reason why Warrior has shorter cooldowns. It has less buttons so it gets to use them more often.
    If there's any sort of takeaway, it's more towards that 45 second cooldown I mentioned on Guardian. And it's not on Firebrand.

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 No, not really. I think Warriors cooldowns are fine now that Rampage is 120.
    I'm usually upfront about my suggestions so if I wanted Warrior having longer cooldowns, you wouldn't need to be asking me.
    I do hope some future Elite Specialization gives Warrior a bigger pool of buttons to press.

    Yes, im this boneheaded.
    I dont see how your observation was in any shape or form supportive to what obtena said. Obtena stated, that they have the least actions to use, and your "observation", that they have lower cds, suggests that you dont see a problem with that lack of actions, since they can use them more frequently than other classes their bigger pool of skills.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2019

    Honestly I'm still shocked that none of the people here actually took the time to think that Stability makes the most sense for this skill as it would not get stopped by wards (A good thing that current Bullscharge can't do because of edgy evade.), but neither be some "must stack all evade frames together so I can avoid all damage carelessly." kind of mentality. (A bad thing that this game constantly suffer from and it's basically how something becomes meta, Revenant being the worst offender and I still stand by the fact Riposting Shadows needs an Endurance nerf to 20 and if done so, Magebane Tether should be too, not Might Makes Right. These two have an identical application and are what makes fights last so long in between the two.)

    Those changes are healthy, add significant benefits with more counterplay without making it braindead to use. Vulnerability should honestly be added to the mix.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Honestly I'm still shocked that none of the people here actually took the time to think that Stability makes the most sense for this skill as it would not get stopped by wards

    maybe that's true ... but I don't think it really matters in the grand scheme of things. If you're making a thread about Bull's being absolutely necessary vs. decent and it's a pseudo-complaint, why would you support the idea of making it even better? It's a little bit contradictory no?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Honestly I'm still shocked that none of the people here actually took the time to think that Stability makes the most sense for this skill as it would not get stopped by wards

    maybe that's true ... but I don't think it really matters in the grand scheme of things. If you're making a thread about Bull's being absolutely necessary vs. decent and it's a pseudo-complaint, why would you support the idea of making it even better? It's a little bit contradictory no?

    It's not exactly making it better in the end to add stability, at least for the damage avoidance but it would partly keep it's buff relevant to not be interrupted by any means at all unless thought out with boon removal.

    I was not expecting a lot of people to agree, however this is in favor of having more counter play in the end.

  • We have last stand to cover stability, brave stride too if you want to take that trait...

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