For the love of God, please nerf condi in PvP

[Kanto.2485]

Condition damage is doing rather poorly with the exception of Weaver and maybe soulbeast nowadays, nondamaging conditions can be kind of overwhelming at times though. The nerfs on scourge might imporve the siutation a little bit, but there are still classes that are able to fill up your condi bar very quickly. For some classes this isn't a problem, but guards for example have a very hard time dealing with condis, the support one has to take literally the max number of cleanses it can possibly have and still struggles with them, engis too can have a hard time with them.. Mostly i would say movement conditions can in some situations make the game boring by preventing you from playing it for their duration, as you can come to lack cleanses, and chill is especially harmful, slowing cd recharge by 66%.

Overall i'd say the main problem is that some classes/builds are severly hampered by having to invest into many cleanses, that could be looked into by adding cleanses to skills that actually do something other than cleanse for example. Having to grab two utility slots and a couple traits just to be able to play can feel annoying at times.

[Kuma.1503]

42 minutes ago, Kanto.2485 said:

Condition damage is doing rather poorly with the exception of Weaver and maybe soulbeast nowadays, nondamaging conditions can be kind of overwhelming at times though. The nerfs on scourge might imporve the siutation a little bit, but there are still classes that are able to fill up your condi bar very quickly. For some classes this isn't a problem, but guards for example have a very hard time dealing with condis, the support one has to take literally the max number of cleanses it can possibly have and still struggles with them, engis too can have a hard time with them.. Mostly i would say movement conditions can in some situations make the game boring by preventing you from playing it for their duration, as you can come to lack cleanses, and chill is especially harmful, slowing cd recharge by 66%.

Overall i'd say the main problem is that some classes/builds are severly hampered by having to invest into many cleanses, that could be looked into by adding cleanses to skills that actually do something other than cleanse for example. Having to grab two utility slots and a couple traits just to be able to play can feel annoying at times.

May I introduce you to our lord and savior escape sigil?

[Saiyan.1704]

Post your class and I'll tell you how it should be played...

[Mik.3401]

But the current meta is strictly power, condis may be strong but they take time to ramp up

Edited September 6, 2021 by Mik.3401

[ovenglove.9528]

Honestly I feel like the amount of cleanse needs nerfing so that condi is a more viable option. 

[Vancho.8750]

13 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

May I introduce you to our lord and savior escape sigil?

Guard has light fields also but no one bothers to do the spiny spin to get the cleanses off (or blast or projectile). It is quite funny actually in PVP seeing that cleanse, cleanse, cleanse is amazing but in PVE it is disappointment since you are missing out on some juicy Firefield.

[RedAvenged.5217]

5 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Guard has light fields also but no one bothers to do the spiny spin to get the cleanses off (or blast or projectile). It is quite funny actually in PVP seeing that cleanse, cleanse, cleanse is amazing but in PVE it is disappointment since you are missing out on some juicy Firefield.

I always do that on guard, it is a go to in my rotation 

[Kanto.2485]

I envy you if your opponents give you time to combo your own fields while playing dps.

also Escape sigil is good but it does have a rather long cd for cleansing 3 condis that you may or may not have at a time you may or may not be able to control.

[RedAvenged.5217]

20 minutes ago, Kanto.2485 said:

I envy you if your opponents give you time to combo your own fields while playing dps.

also Escape sigil is good but it does have a rather long cd for cleansing 3 condis that you may or may not have at a time you may or may not be able to control.

Who said anything about dps- symbol based builds are still arguably the best you are gonna get on guardian...

[Guirssane.7082]

If you play GS guardian it's nice to usually combo GS 4+3 for the light aura but other than that it's not rly useful

[KrHome.1920]

On 9/5/2021 at 2:27 AM, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Condi dps isnt meta aside from fireweaver. Condi pressure is everywhere though. So to be fair you still are getting killed because of condis when a necro or ranger hits you with chill, weakness, blind, cripple, immob and some other covers. Even classes like power herald and nade holo have significant condi pressure.

 

So every viable build is a condi build, because every viable build relies on soft cc to an extent.

 

That explains it all.

[kmark.8519]

I think there is a difference between condi and condi. Applied (direct or aoe) conditions are fine and a good gameplay. Ground targetted spam aoe conditions on the other hand is lazy design and crappy gameplay experience. I think people have problem with the latter,  as it is impossible to cleanse, yet you have to capture the point so at some point you will have to stand in a fire-and-forget ground targetted condi circle that requires absolutely zero skill only quick spam.

 

If there would be a skill to cleanse the ground (ie. remove all ground targeted aoe condi circle) then that would be a good counterplay against this, things would be much more interesting both for gameplay and build diversity.

[Pyriel.4370]

Looks like no one read my second post outlining that to do condi damage you only need the 1 stat and typically that means you can also take vitality/toughness/healing stats. Also to be able to spike someone down as condi, especially on points during sPvP, you just have to spam.

For the same effect with power builds there is usually a trade off. E.g. you become a glass cannon because typically its a zerker trinket or marauder. This is not the case for condi builds. Someone only needs 1 stat to really do any dmg if they are condi focused. For Power you ideally want 3. Power, Precision and Ferocity, at minimum 2. 

Like I also pointed out, to deal with condi  these days you have to spec specifically against it. It's full condom or go home if the other team has a few condi aoe spamming classes. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Pyriel.4370

[lightDestroyer.1265]

2 minutes ago, Pyriel.4370 said:

Looks like no one read my second post outlining that to do condi damage you only need the 1 stat and typically that means you can also take vitality/toughness/healing stats. Also to be able to spike someone down as condi, especially on points during sPvP, you just have to spam.

For the same effect with power builds there is usually a trade off. E.g. you become a glass cannon because typically its a zerker trinket or marauder. This is not the case for condi builds. Someone only needs 1 stat to really do any dmg if they are condi focused. For Power you ideally want 3. Power, Precision and Ferocity, at minimum 2. 

Like I also pointed out, to deal with condi  these days you have to spec specifically against it. It's full condom or go home if the other team has a few condi aoe spamming classes. 

Nah,  you misunderstand. Condi is good, but it isn't that big a problem as scourge sustain.  I won't complain about weavers cuz they are 1v1ers,  but scourge sustain and rez is the major problem.  Even if a class needs only condi dmg,  the thing is condi doesn't crit.  And if your class deals major condi, but without cover condis, your class wont be good.  There is a reason why burn guards can't cross gold 2. Guards are more bunker then they are dmg.   Again, as you will go up,  you will see power builda that will literally "delete" you in a few sec and you cant cleanse ot like condi. 

[saerni.2584]

If you think "condi builds" only use one stat to do damage I'd like to introduce you to the concept of "hybrid stats." 

[lightDestroyer.1265]

5 hours ago, saerni.2584 said:

If you think "condi builds" only use one stat to do damage I'd like to introduce you to the concept of "hybrid stats." 

No condi build i know that does power damge as good. 

[RedAvenged.5217]

6 hours ago, saerni.2584 said:

If you think "condi builds" only use one stat to do damage I'd like to introduce you to the concept of "hybrid stats." 

It’s generally inefficient. There are uses such as in deathmatch just playing a bunker build with like grieving amulet to just out dps the other bunkers. The only good build u could run on a truly hybrid build atm would probably be burn dh with symbol trait and swashbuckler amulet. Anything else is probably trash teir.

 

note: and I wish this wasn’t so, and maybe it would be if they left marshals in, as that was the closest to hybrid anyone played in high teir but it isn’t.

[saerni.2584]

@lightDestroyer.1265 @RedAvenged.5217

 

I just mean that with base power damage all supposed condi builds do in fact apply both types of damage. 
 

Efficiency is another question of course but a pure condi build can usually apply more damage if they bother to spec into both condi and precision/power/ferocity. 
 

It tends to be less effective because most people need some kind of vitality or healing or toughness (hello high base HP pool professions) to get some kind of viability (because being deleted means you aren't doing any damage after all. 
 

In any case condi doesn't burst like power damage so it isn't really the case that just taking condi will give you the damage you need to play a damage role. (I'm sure there's an arcdps analysis one could do on a "condi" builds hybrid damage ratio on a per profession basis but I've never seen anyone seriously attempt that).

[Leonidrex.5649]

2 hours ago, saerni.2584 said:

@lightDestroyer.1265 @RedAvenged.5217

 

I just mean that with base power damage all supposed condi builds do in fact apply both types of damage. 
 

Efficiency is another question of course but a pure condi build can usually apply more damage if they bother to spec into both condi and precision/power/ferocity. 
 

It tends to be less effective because most people need some kind of vitality or healing or toughness (hello high base HP pool professions) to get some kind of viability (because being deleted means you aren't doing any damage after all. 
 

In any case condi doesn't burst like power damage so it isn't really the case that just taking condi will give you the damage you need to play a damage role. (I'm sure there's an arcdps analysis one could do on a "condi" builds hybrid damage ratio on a per profession basis but I've never seen anyone seriously attempt that).

I did something of the nature for poison oriented soulbeast
( soulbeast has decent power damage on condi )
5% dmg on CC
7% dmg with fury
10% dmg on dodge
10% dmg against players with less HP
10% dmg and crit against enemy back and sides
perma fury
carrion amulet
If I remember correctly, more or less 25-30% of my total damage was power.
( I think most other condis would do less more, I could see fire weaver do loads of power dmg due to 25 stacks of might for example )
On an interesting note, I calculated that average poison lasted around 2-2,25s
 

[saerni.2584]

Just now, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I did something of the nature for poison oriented soulbeast
( soulbeast has decent power damage on condi )
5% dmg on CC
7% dmg with fury
10% dmg on dodge
10% dmg against players with less HP
10% dmg and crit against enemy back and sides
perma fury
carrion amulet
If I remember correctly, more or less 25-30% of my total damage was power.
( I think most other condis would do less more, I could see fire weaver do loads of power dmg due to 25 stacks of might for example )
On an interesting note, I calculated that average poison lasted around 2-2,25s
 

Thats interesting...I've never actually tried seriously to run arcDPS to check my numbers.

 

The thing is that there's total damage and then damage at any given point. After all condi will continue ticking so even if it is ultimately 70% of damage it is probably closer to 50% during the start of a "burst." 
 

I'm not sure arcDPS can model that breakdown though. 
 

Was your readout versus players in a match or in more of a 1v1, or something else?

[Leonidrex.5649]

Just now, saerni.2584 said:

Thats interesting...I've never actually tried seriously to run arcDPS to check my numbers.

 

The thing is that there's total damage and then damage at any given point. After all condi will continue ticking so even if it is ultimately 70% of damage it is probably closer to 50% during the start of a "burst." 
 

I'm not sure arcDPS can model that breakdown though. 
 

Was your readout versus players in a match or in more of a 1v1, or something else?

I was taking everything into account, even cleaving bodies, and I looked at the numbers after every fight.
Nothing overly scientific, just personal curiosity.
Im sure this will wildly very by class or even build

[saerni.2584]

1 minute ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I was taking everything into account, even cleaving bodies, and I looked at the numbers after every fight.
Nothing overly scientific, just personal curiosity.
Im sure this will wildly very by class or even build

For sure. Might be interesting to run some tests myself. Hybrid stats work for my build (adding both power and precision) so I like to think there's a nice mix in there. 
 

It would vary a lot depending on who you go up against. No cleanse enemy is going to melt worse against hybrid and a more cleanse heavy enemy would end up taking less damage but skewing your results towards power. 
 

That 2-2.5 seconds of poison duration is a telling stat...

[Leonidrex.5649]

Just now, saerni.2584 said:

For sure. Might be interesting to run some tests myself. Hybrid stats work for my build (adding both power and precision) so I like to think there's a nice mix in there. 
 

It would vary a lot depending on who you go up against. No cleanse enemy is going to melt worse against hybrid and a more cleanse heavy enemy would end up taking less damage but skewing your results towards power. 
 

That 2-2.5 seconds of poison duration is a telling stat...

the 2-2,5s looks really bad ( 20-30% dmg of most skills )
but thats because I played poison soulbeast, it doesnt have much cover condi, and it just keeps reapplying bleed and poison, so its SUPER easy to cleanse, guard will cleanse with every shout, necro spectral walk is more or less 10s invulnerability for example.
The closes we get to hybrid is wizard amulet I think. But I also think hybrid builds are kind if doomed, they just need extra stats to be playable. if I move away from carrion to wizard for example I lose HP and condi damage, and for what? to increase my power damage? which is only 25% of my dmg anyways?
The most important part of a hybrid build for me was panic factor, most people dont understand how to cleanse, if you hit them for 2k-3k with a skill from power, they often panic and cleanse ( they look at their HP bar to determine their actions instead off conditions on them ) then they have nothing when they actually need it.

[saerni.2584]

26 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

the 2-2,5s looks really bad ( 20-30% dmg of most skills )
but thats because I played poison soulbeast, it doesnt have much cover condi, and it just keeps reapplying bleed and poison, so its SUPER easy to cleanse, guard will cleanse with every shout, necro spectral walk is more or less 10s invulnerability for example.
The closes we get to hybrid is wizard amulet I think. But I also think hybrid builds are kind if doomed, they just need extra stats to be playable. if I move away from carrion to wizard for example I lose HP and condi damage, and for what? to increase my power damage? which is only 25% of my dmg anyways?
The most important part of a hybrid build for me was panic factor, most people dont understand how to cleanse, if you hit them for 2k-3k with a skill from power, they often panic and cleanse ( they look at their HP bar to determine their actions instead off conditions on them ) then they have nothing when they actually need it.

To me the advantage is that you can get both the psychological pressure of condi ticks and the constant worry about taking a big hit of strike damage. 
 

There's no "just tank the hit then cleanse and /laugh as they do no damage." Everything is worth dodging at some level. 
 

The big thing with condi damage was always the mini-game over cleansing. Cleanse the wrong thing and then get loaded up with their burst. Cleanse only once or twice and watch the condi start to build up again until you die. Cleanse their burst and then heal through the rest. 
 

Wizard amulet is decent hybrid because you get power and precision in addition to enough condi to make both damage sources worthwhile. You do need decent hybrid weapons for a profession to take advantage of those stats though (otherwise you're better off using Marauder or some other mix with "pure" power stats and vitality/toughness for sustain. 
 

[RedAvenged.5217]

17 hours ago, saerni.2584 said:

@lightDestroyer.1265 @RedAvenged.5217

 

I just mean that with base power damage all supposed condi builds do in fact apply both types of damage. 
 

Efficiency is another question of course but a pure condi build can usually apply more damage if they bother to spec into both condi and precision/power/ferocity. 
 

It tends to be less effective because most people need some kind of vitality or healing or toughness (hello high base HP pool professions) to get some kind of viability (because being deleted means you aren't doing any damage after all. 
 

In any case condi doesn't burst like power damage so it isn't really the case that just taking condi will give you the damage you need to play a damage role. (I'm sure there's an arcdps analysis one could do on a "condi" builds hybrid damage ratio on a per profession basis but I've never seen anyone seriously attempt that).

You don’t need any extra power to do some of both types of damage. It doesn’t make a build an effective hybrid. The problem with taking the power triad stats with conditions is generally that you can only trait for one, so even if I take grieving on a more or less condition build my power damage will be jack . That’s why the only hybrid I think can work rn is some type of guard because of increased symbol strike damage and the fact that many burning skills will do decent damage even without pure condition damage stats..