Bladesworn needs normal F1

[Lonecap.4105]

Bladesworn kind of “opens up” the possibility of not having to choose Discipline and fast hands.

However if you don’t take it, and you need to weapon swap out of gunsaber… you’re now locked on a weapon set for ten seconds which has no burst at all.

If you do take fast hands, then your reward is being able to more frequently swap to a weapon set that has no burst.

Edited September 20, 2021 by ProverbsofHell.2307

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Either they give us normal bursts or weaponswap back. 

Not having both is to much downsides. 

[Kodama.6453]

I don't think we can quite yet call what an espec needs which we didn't get to test at all yet.

Try it out in beta tomorrow, see it's strengths and boundaries and then come back with feedback. We are currently just guessing and making assumptions on theorycrafting while not even knowing the full picture.

[Geoff Fey.1035]

When the Berserker came out it originally had access to both Bursts and Primal Bursts if I'm remembering correctly. ANet decided this was too much and just gave us access to Primal Bursts which made sense.

The downside was that they then nerfed all of the other reasons why the 2 bursts were too much (Adrenal Healing, Berserker's Might, Skullgrinder, Killshot, etc.) and then it became overkill.

Spellbreaker hit a nice balance having the Full Counter + Burst, although it has its own issues that I won't get into.

The main thing with these beta tests is to test out CD, "feel", traits, etc. for each new elite spec in all the different game modes. It's possible they'll revamp it before release (doubtful, but still) and either lower CD or change how it functions.

The lack of regular bursts outside of Gunsabre mechanically make sense since you're supposed to be focusing on that 1-Hit-KO with Dragon Slash (all flavours) but the ammunition system seems a bit limited in both number and recharge. 

Like @Kodama.6453said, wait until the beta, give it a whirl, see how it feels and plays, and then we'll bombard ANet in their discussion page. Try to stay positive; at the end of the day we're probably still going to be playing our Warriors regardless of how End of Dragons shakes out. 

[Lonecap.4105]

35 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I don't think we can quite yet call what an espec needs which we didn't get to test at all yet.

Try it out in beta tomorrow, see it's strengths and boundaries and then come back with feedback. We are currently just guessing and making assumptions on theorycrafting while not even knowing the full picture.

Well I’m calling out a specific thing. I play nothing but Warrior in PvP so I’m pretty sure I can predict how this will feel, based on what Cal showed us of how the spec will function. There wasn’t much left to interpret really.

[Kodama.6453]

6 minutes ago, ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

Well I’m calling out a specific thing. I play nothing but Warrior in PvP so I’m pretty sure I can predict how this will feel, based on what Cal showed us of how the spec will function. There wasn’t much left to interpret really.

We don't know any adjustments in numbers for dragon trigger in PvP, for example.

Might turn out that it is extremely potent, like requiring less channel time, dealing one shot potential damage, still keeps the potential 5 seconds stun with the grandmaster trait...

Just some examples and if it turns out majorly strong, then the removal of base burst might counterbalance it.

That's what I meant. Call out flaws and needs of the elite spec once you got the whole picture. Claiming that the spec "needs" something right now is pretty much pointless.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Grand Marshal.4098]

4 minutes ago, ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

Well I’m calling out a specific thing. I play nothing but Warrior in PvP so I’m pretty sure I can predict how this will feel, based on what Cal showed us of how the spec will function. There wasn’t much left to interpret really.

Imo fromw hat we have seen, just make F1 proc T1 burst mechanics on the weaponswap, depending on DT's availability. In that way swapping to aweapon with no burst and Gunsaber still rewards you with something and it still CD resrticted. It's not like T1 effects are that strong anyway, so uptime isn't rly an issue when you have this Berserker approach to the main bursts (essentially time gated despite weaponset used). 

[draxynnic.3719]

Personally, what I'd like to see here is being able to use Dragon Trigger regardless of whether you've switched to gunsabre or not. It's an iaijutsu move, why SHOULD you have to pull your gunsabre out only to sheathe it again? Why not skip a step, put your other weapons away, and go straight to the iaijutsu stance?

 

Could make it so that you automatically switch to gunsabre after performing the Dragon Slash (so weird how different that is to the original Dragon Slash... ah well). Might mean you get to use it a little earlier if swapping to gunsabre was on cooldown, but at the price of spending adrenaflow.

[Lonecap.4105]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Personally, what I'd like to see here is being able to use Dragon Trigger regardless of whether you've switched to gunsabre or not. It's an iaijutsu move, why SHOULD you have to pull your gunsabre out only to sheathe it again? Why not skip a step, put your other weapons away, and go straight to the iaijutsu stance?

 

Could make it so that you automatically switch to gunsabre after performing the Dragon Slash (so weird how different that is to the original Dragon Slash... ah well). Might mean you get to use it a little earlier if swapping to gunsabre was on cooldown, but at the price of spending adrenaflow.

That would be better. +1

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Yeah, if we lose Weapon Swap entirely then we should be able to enter DT regardless of whether we 'pull out' the GunS.

I think the real sticking point here is that GunSaber is one 'mode' but then so is Dragon Trigger. Why not just treat them like kits proper with 1s ICD? The 3 Dragon Slashes won't do much without flow to drain anyway.

[Valik Shin.9027]

Discipline isn't going anyway in pvp. Warrior sprint, brawlers recover and burst master are too good. I guess but master might not matter anymore but the other 2 will

[Lonecap.4105]

6 minutes ago, Valik Shin.9027 said:

Discipline isn't going anyway in pvp. Warrior sprint, brawlers recover and burst master are too good. I guess but master might not matter anymore but the other 2 will

Fast hands is the main catch. You can live without Warrior's sprint by using swiftness (bladesworn has new swiftness sources) or just 25% movespeed rune. You can live without brawlers recovery especially since weapon swapping is nerfed on bladesworn. Especially if you can replace the cleanse with other trees.

[oscuro.9720]

To an extent, I agree. F2 flipping over to you MH burst skill when out of gunsaber keeps the restriction on dragon trigger in place while giving a lot more utility to the second weapon set. Warrior weapons are already balanced, for the most part, around a 5 second weapon swap. Not having burst available makes it even more restrictive. It may create an environment where the second weapon set doesn’t get used frequently potentially. Obv can’t know for sure, but it’s possible.

[Katary.7096]

Assuming Bladesworns had access to T1 bursts, would they have an adrenaline pool for that? Or does that burst cost flow instead?

[Puck.3697]

9 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Either they give us normal bursts or weaponswap back. 

Not having both is to much downsides. 

eeeeh not really.

its balancable.. and defintly doable realistically, gunsaber is a Viable Weapon Swap and is a Actual Weapon Swap. it also carries its own abilities excluding dragon trigger.

we effectively have 3x Sets of Moves

Core Weapon Choice

GunSaber

then Variants of Dragon Trigger skills.

the Gunsaber defintly adds the mobility it needs to fundamentally be able to replace greatsword as a Weapon Swap.

Pistol i just dont see it overtaking shield in SPVP, possibly saccing too much survivability trying to go that offensive.

but Axe / Shield + Gunsaber would offer some incredibly high burst. while taking advantage of its Elite skill. and offering some get out of jail cards, also the trait whichj reduces the damage done but makes Dragontrigger faster and more oftenly usuable. is likely the way for a PvP build making it more reliable.

its gonna fundamentally fall down to 1) how good the barrier Trait is at offering a decent amount of Sustain.

but potientally.. running

BladeSworn with Axe / Shield + Gunsaber....

Traits - 1st row - Rivers Flow / 2nd row - Unshakable mountain / 3rd row - Daring dragons.

With Valk Amulet + Fighter rune (unless the bladesworns is great ofc) it'll realistically depend on the Damage loss we take for running that

 

[crewthief.8649]

10 hours ago, ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

Bladesworn kind of “opens up” the possibility of not having to choose Discipline and fast hands.

However if you don’t take it, and you need to weapon swap out of gunsaber… you’re now locked on a weapon set for ten seconds which has no burst at all.

If you do take fast hands, then your reward is being able to more frequently swap to a weapon set that has no burst.

I sort of imagine the other weaponset being used primarily as a utility weaponset (at least in competitive modes). 

[sneakytails.5629]

If the top three traits are taken by everyone they are going to get slammed like the passive traits did (they still have not recovered).  I know they look the best and make the most sense but I am really hoping they don;t get gutted as I plan on using them for support.

[Obtena.7952]

Admittedly, it's weird Anet didn't have a standard burst skill here. IIRC, they did rework Berserker to include it for Berserker v2. Somehow they determined it was necessary there ... but not here.  I'm not sure it's necessary yet ... depends on how it plays. I get the feeling that accumulating flow for DragonSlashing will be more of a pain than accumulating adrenaline for Berserker. Will see tomorrow I guess. 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Admittedly, it's weird Anet didn't have a standard burst skill here. IIRC, they did rework Berserker to include it for Berserker v2. Somehow they determined it was necessary there ... but not here.  I'm not sure it's necessary yet ... depends on how it plays. I get the feeling that accumulating flow for DragonSlashing will be more of a pain than accumulating adrenaline for Berserker. Will see tomorrow I guess. 

well considering.. its gonna require more precision to realistically use it correctly comparitively to berserkr burst and its Damage is a upfront Nuke instead of a Stance u maintain for a limited period of time.. i think it'll be more effective then berserkers.

I have to admit though.. this just seems like they given up on berserker and tried to recreate berserkers Role.... giving us another Pure DPS Almost.

[DKRathalos.9625]

6 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I have to admit though.. this just seems like they given up on berserker and tried to recreate berserkers Role.... giving us another Pure DPS Almost.

I have to second this. I mean I don't mind another DPS spec but please try to fix berserker first, it still got a lot of problem from trait and skill wise and I think deserve to get some changes.

[Malus.2184]

I think the best option would be to create a companion skill to Dragon Strike.

 

F1 draws the sword.

F2 charges Dragon Strike

F3 should be Phoenix Slash. An instant attack that deals relative low damage and instead applies Boons and Conditions. For each 30 Flow consumed casting Phoenix Slash the damage and duration/stack of the Boon(s)/Condition(s).

 

I really like the concept of Dragon Strike, however, even with Aegis and the blink it would be impossible to charge it for even  one second due to the amount of AoE you have to avoid flying around in PvE. I'm here thinking of some of the Fractal bosses on higher tier just chaining AoE, there's a few bosses even makes the floor vanish in addition to all the AoE, and it only gets worse the higher tier you play on and Instyabilities are added in.

 

Having the ability to do something is useless if you never have the opportunity to use that ability. Example: being able to fly is the most useless thing to have if you live your entire life in tunnels.

[Drascious.5714]

Feel like this discussion is entirely against the spirit of elite specs. The trade offs are important for the balance and feel of elite specs and for once they seem to have been willing to do it properly. There's too many elite specs that don't offer enough trade off which has lead to them being far too dominant. Holo is a great example of what happens if you dont have a clear trade off.

[Valik Shin.9027]

12 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

the Gunsaber defintly adds the mobility it needs to fundamentally be able to replace greatsword as a Weapon Swap.

100% disagree. Gunblade does not have a 1200 range rundown/ runawy still or a evade escape skill for disengage and triggers traps/wells. GS is the perfect weapon. High mobility good damage and even an evade 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

55 minutes ago, Psykewne.3025 said:

Feel like this discussion is entirely against the spirit of elite specs. The trade offs are important for the balance and feel of elite specs and for once they seem to have been willing to do it properly. There's too many elite specs that don't offer enough trade off which has lead to them being far too dominant. Holo is a great example of what happens if you dont have a clear trade off.

So why is it always warrior that has to have the trade off properly done?

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

So why is it always warrior that has to have the trade off properly done?

They do the trade off for warrior properly because they can.

Anet designed themselves into a corner with engineer, there is not much they can do with the class to give it a trade off except adding more generic stat debuffs...

Taking away toolbelt? Replacing the elite toolbelt skill is fine, removing the entire toolbelt is not. This cripples the class to the point of it becoming dysfunctioning.

Weapon swap? Can't be taken away since we don't have one to begin with.

For engineer to get proper trade offs they have to rework the class either from the ground or they just add generic stat penalties, which kinda sucks if the trade off for every elite soec is always "have less of x stat"...