The Untamed - new ranger elite spec

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Lazze.9870 said:

You're so out on depth it's not even funny anymore.

It's not intended to be funny so I guess that's a win for me 👍

Experience in playing a class does not directly translate into knowing what's best for class design. 

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, Xukavi.4320 said:

 but as someone who played GW2 from the betas and had Ranger as a main for quite some time I can tell you pet issues have been there since day 1.

Right ... that is a class issue.  I'm not debating that. That's in fact my point. Using a class issue to complain about a specific espec, not knowing how it's impacted by that issue without playing the espec. 

Let me ask you a question. Based on the video, what convinces you Untamed has or has NOT the ability to address this? 

Let's try something to challenge these conclusions: Watch this video:

Now tell me whether or not you could deduce the same thing for Soulbeast?

 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lazze.9870]

11 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's not intended to be funny so I guess that's a win for me 👍

Experience in playing a class does not directly translate into knowing what's best for class design. 

 

Unintentionally funny, that's a big L for you sir.

I know what works. You don't, that's clear when you're reaching for what's "theoretically the best" in terms of class design and not what's best in practice. Actually, your entire position on the topic is stupid to begin with, if anything, drastic changes of the core mechanic is what SHOULD be on the table for an elite spec, and it's a double win if that can assure different roles to what it currently can do.

A sidenoder and a roamer. That's what untamed is gonna be. Maybe it can add some more CC and be a useable immob spammer in WvW, competing with the other niche roles of immobbeast and immob druid.

There is a large pile of problems with a pet spec. I have mentioned one. Another one is that you can't fit MM, WS and BM traitlines and still run the elite spec. The wombo combo Remorseless build people are hoping for is probably better off on core.

I'm not gonna drag this any further. A complete waste of time.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Worth noting is that the trailer specifically mentioned dazes. Which are unaffected by the "CCs deal no damage" policy.

So it could dish out quite some.

Rangers can only hope that is the case. Still does not stop CMC from nerfing the big damage skills in competitive play to the level that it becomes a joke.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right ... that is a class issue. 

Let me ask you a question. Based on the video, what convinces you Untamed has or has NOT the ability to address this? 

 

No enemies in the video move, and the only AoE shown is that green explosion thing generated by the ranger itself. 

So that tells us pet is still bad at pathing (or they'd clearly showcase that movement as they have with other specs) and the pet is still single target focused (no remote AoEs for us).  

We can go down the path of the pet never strays from the ranger in the video so possibly a leash range nerf.  This would fall under 'fixing pathing problems' but in possibly the worst way possible.  

Edited October 20, 2021 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

No enemies in the video move, and the only AoE shown is that green explosion thing generated by the ranger itself. 

So that tells us pet is still bad at pathing 

No, that's what you are INFERRING from it. Again, you tend to draw conclusions from incomplete information. This is no exception. That video is simply a demonstration of some of the skills of the class with an overlapping narrative. We don't even know what ones. It's far from complete. There is no way Anet could provide anyone with the level of details to draw the conclusions you have from these videos. 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[mistsim.2748]

This thread is getting mega annoying. Just wait 2 days.

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, that's what you are INFERRING from it. Again, you tend to draw conclusions from incomplete information. This is no exception. That video is simply a demonstration of some of the skills of the class with an overlapping narrative. We don't even know what ones. It's far from complete. There is no way Anet could provide anyone with the level of details to draw the conclusions you have from these videos. 

 

 

You realize you are also drawing the inverse conclusion that pets are going to somehow magically path better from the same 'incomplete' video?

 

I'm not inferring anything by the way, if there were movement related items to highlight they would be shown...just look at Willbender reveal video, movement is clearly highlighted there.  

 

 

It's been a fun discussion though 😂

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

You realize you are also drawing the inverse conclusion that pets are going to somehow magically path better from the same 'incomplete' video?

Again, that's just your inference based on using information that doesn't exist ... No where have I drawn any conclusion pets are going to somehow magically path better. Just like you can conclude there is better of worse pet pathing issues because things don't move in the video.

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Swagger.1459]

41 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

Except that is what is relevant to the discussion here. Even implying moving targets is a pet-specific problem is not acknowledging the toolset of the class at large. I guess it hasn't even occurred to you that there is design intent behind pet movement and and target interaction as Anet have introduced both ranged and melee pets. I suppose recognizing these realities doesn't fit the narrative for a pet-less ranger spec does it?

Again, Anet has given Rangers options to address moving targets, EVEN for pets. You just don't want to acknowledge the limitations as a pet class around whatever issues you have aren't intended design. If those issues, even with the methods available to address them as a class, are not acceptable to you, you have options. 

As for Untamed, it seems to me that even from the short video, the swapping feature along with the implied CC capabilities of the hammer indicate a potentially capable competitive spec. 

Not sure how long you’ve been following Ranger, but pets account for roughly 1/3rd of the Ranger damage equation. I stated a few threads long ago, and even quoted back from an Alpha interview with the devs that pets needed work. I also tested most pets in the training area and posted the results, and a good majority of pet attacks, ranged and melee, miss the walking golem. Yes, a walking target… Some pets also do not get speed boost boon sleep for some glitchy reason.

We’ve had countless threads on these subjects. Pets have issues.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Swagger.1459

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

We’ve had countless threads on these subjects. Pets have issues.

OK, I'm not saying they don't have this issue. I'm saying people are drawing some pretty bad conclusions about how pets will or will not work from a 20 second video. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Weird concerns about ranged or moving targets for some people ... because all the sudden Rangers don't have ranged weapons and weapon swapping? 

It doesn't matter that the ranged options are still available. The concern was the character being rooted in place which is obviously a major draw back. If indeed that is the case.

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's not specific to the espec though ... that's a general class issue. 

And it's a class issue that will only be exacerbated by creating a pet focused spec.

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... that doesn't change what I said though ... that's a class issue, not a espec issue. We have no reason to believe from that video that pet movement behaviour on Untamed is different than any other Ranger espec. Whether it's affected more or not remains to be seen by actually playing it. There is a possibility it's even LESS affected. 

I know it's popular to take general class issues to trash especs, but that doesn't make sense to do so. The specs aren't there to solve issues with the class, they are there to offer variety in playstyles. 

 

It IS an eSPec issue though too, the point is the mechanic is the problem. SO when you create an eSpec that utilises the mechanic MORE, it makes the eSpec not as effective as it could be.

How is this play style any different to core? Getting to move a buff around is hardly variety. 

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, that's where we differ in opinion because a pet focused spec has many ways to address that, like on pretty much all the Ranger specs with exception of being melded Soulbeast. 

They will need to completely rewrite all the pet code and adjust the skills for that to happen, what do you think the chances of that are after almost a decade of us asking for better pet AI? And then, at the same time, if you make the pathing and AI better, you will have to once more nerf their damage in PvP and WvW, making the class mechanic even more useless.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

It IS an eSPec issue though too, the point is the mechanic is the problem. SO when you create an eSpec that utilises the mechanic MORE, it makes the eSpec not as effective as it could be.

No, that's my point ... we CAN'T conclude this is an issue with the espec from a 20 second video. It has to be played. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Xukavi.4320]

45 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right ... that is a class issue.  I'm not debating that. That's in fact my point. Using a class issue to complain about a specific espec, not knowing how it's impacted by that issue without playing the espec. 

Let me ask you a question. Based on the video, what convinces you Untamed has or has NOT the ability to address this? 

Let's try something to challenge these conclusions: Watch this video:

Now tell me whether or not you could deduce the same thing for Soulbeast?

 

 

1- We both agree pet AI is a core issue for Ranger. An E-spec that focuses more on the pet without fixing the core AI issues of Pet will suffer from those issues. Simply put, Anet hasn't changed pet AI in 9 years now and players don't believe they're going to do so now. Could we be wrong, yes. I'd love to be wrong about that but its a tall order to be fulfilled. Easiest way to "fix" pathing and attack animation issues with the Ranger pet is making sure the target doesn't move. The whole premise of this new E-spec based on that video (which is based on the GW1 bunny thumper build which did the same) is CC your target to your pet kills them. Saying we don't know how this e-spec will be impacted by core AI issues is basically saying either they're fixing the AI (which is unlikely) or they're giving Untamed pets a way to stick to their targets and attack faster both which weren't highlighted at all in the video.

2- As it was said before by someone else, the whole showcase doesn't have anyone move. Neither the pet nor the Ranger nor the enemies. Its as if they're purposely showing the spec off while everyone is standing still. Anet knows about the Pet AI issues, it knows players have been complaining about it for years and knows we have concerns over it if they were to make an e-spec focused on having the pet deal more damage. The teaser shows nothing in defense of fixing these issues other than "ranger CC so pet can land attacks" if they had done anything else to solve the issues it would be very weird that they didn't show it in the teaser. Maybe its being left for Guildchat on Friday but to most of us again, that's setting yourself up for disappointment. I could just as easily ask you, what from that Untamed video makes you think its solving the Pet AI issues?

3- The Soulbeast never fixed the Pet AI issues that have been with Core Ranger from the start. All the Soulbeast did was give Rangers the option to not have to deal with the Pet AI issues by not having the pet but instead getting stats when melded to make up for the portion of damage your pet would normally deal if it actually managed to land hits on the target. The teaser video for Soulbeast showed nothing new for Pet AI but showed you can meld with the pet. You could conclude from that video exactly what we got with the Soulbeast.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Xukavi.4320

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

...I think it's weird to take a GENERAL issue with a class as a complaint/concern specific to one espec. 

It seems obvious the spec is more pet focused, so having a poorly operating pet is going to only... What? Make it better?

 

54 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

Except that is what is relevant to the discussion here. Even implying moving targets is a pet-specific problem is not acknowledging the toolset of the class at large. I guess it hasn't even occurred to you that there is design intent behind pet movement and and target interaction as Anet have introduced both ranged and melee pets. I suppose recognizing these realities doesn't fit the narrative for a pet-less ranger spec does it?

Again, Anet has given Rangers options to address moving targets, EVEN for pets. You just don't want to acknowledge the limitations as a pet class around whatever issues you have aren't intended design. If those issues, even with the methods available to address them as a class, are not acceptable to you, you have options. 

As for Untamed, it seems to me that even from the short video, the swapping feature along with the implied CC capabilities of the hammer indicate a potentially capable competitive spec. 

You have obviously never used the ranged pets then. There is a good reason nobody uses them now.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

18 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK, I'm not saying they don't have this issue. I'm saying people are drawing some pretty bad conclusions about how pets will or will not work from a 20 second video. 

If they were going to completely rewrite pets, they would have done it by now. Ergo, the pets will have the same problems.

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, that's my point ... we CAN'T conclude this is an issue with the espec from a 20 second video. It has to be played. 

Again, unless they completely redo pets, we can conclude this will be an issue with the spec, because it's an issue with every Ranger spec.

[aymnad.9023]

1 hour ago, Lazze.9870 said:

I'm gonna just copy myself: The ranger itself has no problem with moving targets.

I agree with most of your concerns even if right now I am mostly curious about the details of the e-spec. I just wanted to add a small note about this sentence because I think that ranger can struggle vs moving target with its most used weapon, the greatsword. I am going a bit off topic just because it bothered me way too often to just swap to gs and see my opponent running away (but I understand why you wrote this).

Edited October 20, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[Xenash.1245]

Anyone else find it entertaining how some people are judging this new spec like they know everything about it, even though the only thing we've been given so far is a small trailer with next to no information in it.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Xenash.1245

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

6 minutes ago, Xenash.1245 said:

Anyone else find it entertaining how some people are judging this new spec like they know everything about it, even though the only thing we've been given so far is a small trailer with next to no information in it.

Most of the people judging it are concluding that because since launch; the current pets have had substandard AI and ANet have made no attempt at improving it (except for increasing the attack distances on some skills), that they have only ever received nerfs in PvP, then a pet focused spec is only going to highlight these problems further. Like, if you are in PvP, you can hold W and D and the pet will never be able to hit you. Yet, when you can actually get a pet to connect by using a whole setup and CC, the pet will be nerfed.

In PvE the pet will take several seconds to change targets or close a gap from range. It's just not going to be an effective spec in PvP or a fluid to play one in PvE unless these issues are addressed and after almost a decade, we just can't see that happening.

[Xenash.1245]

3 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Most of the people judging it are concluding that because since launch; the current pets have had substandard AI and ANet have made no attempt at improving it (except for increasing the attack distances on some skills), that they have only ever received nerfs in PvP, then a pet focused spec is only going to highlight these problems further. Like, if you are in PvP, you can hold W and D and the pet will never be able to hit you. Yet, when you can actually get a pet to connect by using a whole setup and CC, the pet will be nerfed.

In PvE the pet will take several seconds to change targets or close a gap from range. It's just not going to be an effective spec in PvP or a fluid to play one in PvE unless these issues are addressed and after almost a decade, we just can't see that happening.

I'd understand more if some people were more so just voicing their valid concerns, rather then just assuming the that the new elite spec will be horrible without even knowing what it fully does. Like for example from the few times I've seen you, you've always seemed fair enough in how you've voice your concerns but that's not everyone.

[Revolution.5409]

I like the concept of this specialization, with Hammer and Aoe abilities I wish Ranger had a place in Zergs.

I hope Anet has also decided to make some improvements to the pets to make this work .. Ranger's class mechanic has always been her weak point and this is a great chance to fix that.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Just wanted to add another observation...I noticed in the trailer there is no new pet. 

 

They're showing Tiger, which was a PoF pet.  I know everything isn't revealed, but really feel like that trailer would have been a good time to introduce a new pet, especially if it was going to play nicely with the new mechanics.  

[mistsim.2748]

6 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Just wanted to add another observation...I noticed in the trailer there is no new pet. 

 

They're showing Tiger, which was a PoF pet.  I know everything isn't revealed, but really feel like that trailer would have been a good time to introduce a new pet, especially if it was going to play nicely with the new mechanics.  

It really feels their resources are spread too thin on EoD. Just look at the haphazard marketing videos and reused assets. I half expect for there not to be any new pets, wouldn't be surprised at all.

[Ehecatl.9172]

This looks exciting. Empowering the pet as I smack the enemy around with my hammer is the sort of melee playstyle I was hoping for. The plant explosion AoE looked especially interesting. I wonder if that is a hammer skill or if it is tied to the new Primal Energy mechanic. If it is from Primal Energy we could end up with a playstyle of empowering the pet, running it into enemy groups, and detonating it for big damage.

 

That'd be pretty funny. Explosive pets.

 

I also like the idea of managing who has the Primal Energy and when. It might give the folks who wanted a petless spec a little leeway if they can just hoard the Primal Energy for themselves and leave the pet out to dry. Depends on how we're supposed to generate the resource I imagine.

 

Lots of potential for something fun. We'll need to see how it is executed on Friday to see how good it is.

[Tempest.8479]

14 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Just wanted to add another observation...I noticed in the trailer there is no new pet. 

 

They're showing Tiger, which was a PoF pet.  I know everything isn't revealed, but really feel like that trailer would have been a good time to introduce a new pet, especially if it was going to play nicely with the new mechanics.  

While I agree that it would've been a good time to show off a new pet, it doesn't strike me as something these teasers are meant to do based on the other 7. If I'm not mistaken, none of them have shown off anything new except enemy types. No new armor or weapon skins, and even the elite-spec skins seen in the artwork haven't been shown in-game. They didn't even put a new pet in the art, opting instead for the tiger. That would track with them not showing new pets in the trailer.

Although I might be wrong on this one if ranger can tame a white tiger in Cantha. As far as I know, a ranger can only tame a tiger based on the more common orange pigmentation. IRL white tigers were native to Asian regions (at least before habitat destruction left the genetic mutation so uncommon that they're mostly only seen in captivity). So there actually could be a tease of a new pet variant, at least, through the artwork.