[Feedback] How i took the largest hit to my opinion about the game, since returning - Boreal Bags

[Aerensiniac.3584]

So i returned to gw2 after years long break and after world of warcraft.
Particularly after wow, the game felt like a breath of fresh air. I saw innovation, i saw a community that was interactive and not just everyone handling each other like bots. I enjoyed the fact that old content was still relevant and i had great fun walking the story all over again while picking up all the new masteries and things.

The tl;dr is that i grew pretty invested in gw2. I enjoyed it, until last night when me and my friends had a bit of a verbal spar over the 32 slot bags, and ended up taking a rather large blow to my opinion about gw2.
Without adding any more filler: Creating a 32 slot bag, even with the boreal achievement is above 200gold. Probably closer to 250 even without involving the achievement requirements for the recipes and what not due to the runes of holding costing inane amounts, and we ended up in a rather heated debate when it came to the fact that the shop will sell you a new bag slot for 400 gems (100 gold gets you 512 gems at the time of writing) in which you can put a 20 slot bag that costs 10 or so golds.

Then i got one upped on it cause if you calculate this properly then you come out with the following conclusion:
250 gold for 12 slot extra space (cause you gonna replace a 20 slot bag with a 32 one), or
200 gold for 40 extra space if you gem trade

I get the arguments that maybe those who unlocked all possible slots "might" want this or something. The argument used in our debate was that its for "minmaxers".
Im also not against the shop. At all.
However this feels atrocious.
Proper diseased. Ill intended. Trash and the rest of the jazz.
You work towards an achievement with the benefit in front of your eyes that not only will you get a multi step achievement, but finally you will get to properly manage your inventory space, just to turn all that positive sensation, game play value and feeling upside down in one single go.

Why is there an achievement in the game that is literally the equivalent of  "hey everyone, i cant do math and im special"?
Why do you have to turn shop usage into a literal toxic waste dump that produces situations like these? 12 slots for 250 gold or 40 slots for 220 if you use our store currency.
I understand that many old players and farmers who have no gold problems and have all slots unlocked will probably completely disregard this entire topic cause for them its still an improvement regardless of the completely backwards costs involved, but as a returning/casual player i wanted to put this out there: You are more than just inept if you put "achievements" in your game which fulfill the exact opposite purpose of the word and take from the players while at the same time make them feel utterly stupid.
It's probably closer to intentionally being destructive towards the game and your players.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Aerensiniac.3584

[Gibson.4036]

This is why I’ve never understood people complaining about cosmetics in the gem store. It’s the so-called “convenience” items that are the real pressure toward buying gems. They lead game design to pressure players through little inconveniences like restricted storage space.

You can totally play the game without them, but the development will always be nagging you here and there to fix their QoL negatives through gems.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Gibson.4036

[AgentMoore.9453]

I'm not sure if I understand the issue here.

Are you saying the 32-slot Boreal Trunk costs too much in-game effort/currency and that it's a better deal to convert gold to gems, buy a bag slot for a character, and put a 20 slot bag like this in it? That's how the post currently reads and it's very confusing. Don't you still end up with a bag that holds 20 things versus a bag that holds 32 things? Aren't bag slots always 400 gems (barring sales and special promos) regardless of what kind of bag you put in them?

[firedragon.8953]

I'm not sure I understand the problem.

You can unlock 5 additional bag slots with Bag Slot Expansions for 400gems x 5 slots = 2,000 gems (approx 400 gold)
This gives you 100 extra slots if you use 20 slot bags for a MAX of 200 inventory spaces.

You can upgrade all bags with your default 5 bag allowance to 20 slot bags for a MAX of 100 inventory spaces or replace all with 32 slots bags for a MAX of 160 inventory spaces (1,200 gold).

So obviously, get the extra bag slots from the gem store by trading gold.

If you want to be crazy, upgrade both for a MAX of 321 inventory spaces.

You are thinking of this as an "either or" situation. 

You are comparing two very different things. 1) Inventory Spaces and 2) Bag capacity. As I tried showing above, they are not the same thing. 

I just buy the bag expansions because they are cheaper (either with gem purchases or gold to gem conversion) and I don't need more than 200 inventory spaces on my main character.

[kharmin.7683]

I've been playing this game for 8+ years.  I have never needed a 32 slot bag.  Not sure what the complaint is with this thread?

[Gibson.4036]

53 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I've been playing this game for 8+ years.  I have never needed a 32 slot bag.  Not sure what the complaint is with this thread?

My understanding is that the complaint is about when the gem store incentivizes using it over earning something in game.

Here’s this thing you can earn with achievements that actually costs more gold than just buying gems.

There’s a kind of logic to either put in the work or put up the cash. But that logic breaks when doing the work actually costs more than not.

[Aerensiniac.3584]

1 hour ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

I'm not sure if I understand the issue here.

Are you saying the 32-slot Boreal Trunk costs too much in-game effort/currency and that it's a better deal to convert gold to gems, buy a bag slot for a character, and put a 20 slot bag like this in it? That's how the post currently reads and it's very confusing. Don't you still end up with a bag that holds 20 things versus a bag that holds 32 things? Aren't bag slots always 400 gems (barring sales and special promos) regardless of what kind of bag you put in them?

The line that answer your question was this:
"Then i got one upped on it cause if you calculate this properly then you come out with the following conclusion:
250 gold for 12 slot extra space (cause you gonna replace a 20 slot bag with a 32 one), or
200 gold for 40 extra space if you gem trade"

Yes. Bag slots will cost you 400 gems regardless of what you put in them, but i dont see what you mean by that.
I can still get myself 40 extra space by spending 220 gold via store currency, but if i stick to the crafting and in game auction house then i get myself 12 extra space for ~250 gold.
The point is that the entire boreal bag achievement is a joke.
You do not achieve anything, you literally get lied to take a detrimental path to inventory expansion. This is not an achievement, this is the equivalent of the developers degrading themselves to a used car salesman who tries to screw you over just for the sport of it, and degrade you as the player into a literal clown.
 

 

1 hour ago, firedragon.8953 said:

I'm not sure I understand the problem.

You can unlock 5 additional bag slots with Bag Slot Expansions for 400gems x 5 slots = 2,000 gems (approx 400 gold)
This gives you 100 extra slots if you use 20 slot bags for a MAX of 200 inventory spaces.

You can upgrade all bags with your default 5 bag allowance to 20 slot bags for a MAX of 100 inventory spaces or replace all with 32 slots bags for a MAX of 160 inventory spaces (1,200 gold).

So obviously, get the extra bag slots from the gem store by trading gold.

Yes. That would be the problem. As stated above: You have an achievement in the game which takes you for a clown.
The literal only achievement you did by doing the ancestral forge line is to claim yourself to be a clown.
The achievement in clear text literally comes down to what you wrote: Look mom, i spent 1200 gold on getting 60 inventory spaces (you are REPLACING 20 slot bags with that, so its not 32 slots but 12) instead of 400 gold for 100 spaces. Arent i a champ?

 

1 hour ago, firedragon.8953 said:

You are thinking of this as an "either or" situation. 

Thats because this is an either or situation for anyone who did NOT yet unlock all bag slots for their characters.
 

 

1 hour ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I've been playing this game for 8+ years.  I have never needed a 32 slot bag.  Not sure what the complaint is with this thread?

Its the "achievement".
You "achieved" paying double and for half the benefit you can get by going through gem currency.
It literally sets the store against the game play. By what logic do you call something an achievement (with a 70 gold requirement under BEST case situation) that makes a clown out of you?

[kharmin.7683]

1 minute ago, Aerensiniac.3584 said:

Its the "achievement".
You "achieved" paying double and for half the benefit you can get by going through gem currency.
It literally sets the store against the game play. By what logic do you call something an achievement (with a 70 gold requirement under BEST case situation) that makes a clown out of you?

Yes, but it isn't required so players can simply ignore this "achievement".

[Aerensiniac.3584]

5 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

My understanding is that the complaint is about when the gem store incentivizes using it over earning something in game.

Here’s this thing you can earn with achievements that actually costs more gold than just buying gems.

There’s a kind of logic to either put in the work or put up the cash. But that logic breaks when doing the work actually costs more than not.

Partially.
My problem is that it directly sets the store against gameplay in the most destructive way possible.
As stated above several times: You have an achievement that lets you achieve something for 4 times the effort, twice the price and half the benefit.
The literal way the ancestral forge achievement reads is: "Look ma, im a dumb _____"

Why do you put something in the game as an ACHIEVEMENT no less, that makes the player feel like a clown and FORCES to view the developer team as a hustling, liar, car sales man?

[Danikat.8537]

I don't understand the problem either. There's a lot of expensive achievements in the game (there's 1 which is literally just for spending 1,000g), achievements aren't supposed to be a cheap way to get rewards they're supposed to be, well, achievements. Either things you do while playing through content or an extra 'challenge' and I'm fairly certain you'll lose gold on a lot of the collection achievements because the things you need to buy/craft/bind to your account to complete it are more expensive than the reward you get from it. Although some, like the weapon collections effectively let you keep the collection items too (because the skins are unlocked in your wardrobe) so it's not really a loss.

There's lots of different ways to get more bag space and if your sole priority is to find the cheapest method per additional bag slot then you should probably do the maths first to work out which that is and it might well involve buying bag slots from the gem store. But I suspect a lot of people either do the achievements because they want to complete the achievement itself, or because they want the achievement points and whatever items it gives are a bonus.

[Aerensiniac.3584]

2 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Yes, but it isn't required so players can simply ignore this "achievement".

While that statement is true, its does not answer the question:
As a game designer, the only thing that gets in your game is what you put in it. So why are you putting "landmines" disguised as beneficial things and play goals in the game which exist solely for the detriment of the players?

 

[Aerensiniac.3584]

13 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

I don't understand the problem either. There's a lot of expensive achievements in the game (there's 1 which is literally just for spending 1,000g), achievements aren't supposed to be a cheap way to get rewards they're supposed to be, well, achievements. Either things you do while playing through content or an extra 'challenge' and I'm fairly certain you'll lose gold on a lot of the collection achievements because the things you need to buy/craft/bind to your account to complete it are more expensive than the reward you get from it. Although some, like the weapon collections effectively let you keep the collection items too (because the skins are unlocked in your wardrobe) so it's not really a loss.

There's lots of different ways to get more bag space and if your sole priority is to find the cheapest method per additional bag slot then you should probably do the maths first to work out which that is and it might well involve buying bag slots from the gem store. But I suspect a lot of people either do the achievements because they want to complete the achievement itself, or because they want the achievement points and whatever items it gives are a bonus.

This approach just baffles me.
Im playing games since 1990, my first pc was a 286 XT and progressively i played through everything you can imagine from the first doom, duke nukem, command and conquer, etc, but never once have i met an online game or an mmo, even with scumbags such as EA games, which would put literal game content in the game for the detriment of the players.

I mean this is a complete new for me, and you serve it with the first sentence "i dont understand the problem".
You literally proceed to describe the problem.
You have "achievements" (apparently this word is an ironical joke inside guild wars 2) which by your own admission, makes players lose out on things.
Thats not what the word "achievement" means?
Thats not what the gameplay concept behind "achievement" means?
Thats not how "achievements" work? Thats not how any of this is supposed to work?

Well, at least now i know from your post that this is normal for guild wars 2.
Thats.... nice to know i guess... aside from the fact that i will need a few hours to internalize the idea that games exist where achievements are detriments, and that this is viewed as a normal thing by the players... that... is brand new to me, ill admit.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Aerensiniac.3584
just wow...

[Friday.7864]

I'm just sitting here and wondering how a 32 slot bag managed to ruffle someone's feathers so much...

Always considered 32slot bags convenience/luxury items I don't need.
And yes, Bag slots on sale is the best deal you can get when it comes to getting extra inv space.
The ones who go for 32 slot bags are usually ppl who max their Bag slots first and THEN fill them with 32 slot bags. 

[Gibson.4036]

We don’t really “need” anything to play the game besides a character slot and level appropriate greens, if that. 
 

All discussions about rewards and what’s required to get them are now moot. 

[Embered.5089]

I think that you only have a problem with this because you want to complete every achievement. I personally pick and choose which achievements that I want, and oftentimes I never use the rewards that I get. Sometimes I will track an achievement for awhile, then untrack it for whatever reason and move on. There's no need to do every achievement. Many collection achievements cost thousands of gold and aren't worth it if you're just looking to get a profit.

My account is about 5 years old, and I use 20-slot bags. I prefer my bags to be 20-slot because I resized my inventory so that each row is 10 slots, so it's nice having it be a rectangle. These 20-slot bags are enough for me. Even if I run a full drizzlewood meta, I don't need to check my bags until the end because it never fills up (of course, I need to cut some stacks of unidentified gear in half before I open them all at once...)

There is no need to do every achievement.

There is no need for 32-slot bags.

Most people know that bags get exponentially more expensive as the slot count increases. That's why a lot of people stick with 18-slot bags, because 20 is already not worth it for them.

The achievements tell you what rewards you're getting, and the wiki is available if you want to read more into the rewards.

I feel like you're blaming the game because you don't want to blame yourself. You didn't bother to stop and think, "I'm getting a recipe, but I wonder what materials are needed to craft the item?"

There's a group of achievements to collect all minis in sets I, II, and III. Most people will not bother with that, because one mini in the collection alone can cost a few hundred gold to buy, or they'll need some serious RNG luck. And what's the reward? Some AP, a few titles that will never be used, and a large bucket of minis that will never be used. This achievement is obviously not worth it for people who do achievements for only the reward. They do it because they're achievement hunters or completionists. 
Most people who do every achievement continue to do it just so they can be like "I HAVE 50K AP, WHICH IS MORE THAN 99% OF ALL PLAYERS, YAAAAAY." They understand that the journey to get there is long and arduous and extremely tiring if you don't take breaks.

Okay, so I think I covered everything that I think you might be complaining about. It's a lot of things because I'm not really sure what you're complaining about.

You don't like the rewards from an achievement? Pick another achievement to do.

You're not sure what a reward is? Wiki it.

[Jalad Lantana.3027]

I some players want to spend to get achievement points, who cares?

[Head Kracker.4790]

To the TC. you do realize that you dont have to go all out on this unless you want too correct? There is VERY little content that requires  that much bag space and a as bonus 28 slot bags will save you about 100 gold per bag on average and are still quite useful.

As well once you hit 28 slot you can just wait to save up the money and upgrade after you the gold/runes cap for upgrade. 

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Don't like the price of that particular 32-slot bag? Get one of these, costs nothing: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/32-Slot_Hero's_Trusty_Backpack

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reinforced_Olmakhan_Bandolier

 

There are many costly 32-slot bags in the game; no one forces anyone to obtain them if they feel the cost is too high.  🤷‍♂️

 

[Cyninja.2954]

Psssst, no one tell TC about the Contract of Patronage (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Contract_of_Patronage).

On topic:

Yes, there are luxury bags. They are in place literally for players to spend gold on in case they ABSOLUTELY need to have insane amounts of space or in order to satisfy their OCD.

Meanwhile looking at this from the other side: getting decked out in 20 slots bags is rather cheap and will satisfy any "common" players needs.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[firedragon.8953]

2 hours ago, Aerensiniac.3584 said:

4 hours ago, firedragon.8953 said:

You are thinking of this as an "either or" situation. 

Thats because this is an either or situation for anyone who did NOT yet unlock all bag slots for their characters.

No, it literally isn't. Let me break this down for simplicity.

You start the game with 5 inventory slots (bag slots). It functions as a multiplier that allows exponential expansion up to 10x. Consider this as "inventory space". You can augment your inventory space with a bag which has an arbitrary capacity (max. 32) per inventory slot. It is an additive function (i.e., you can only add an arbitrary capacity to one inventory slot). You are literally comparing two different mathematical functions: multiplication and addition. "Bag capacity" is not the same as "inventory/bag slot". 

20x5 = 100
(20+12)5 = 160

or

20x10 = 200

(20+12)x10 = 320

The achievement is for a "bigger bag" not for maximum storage space. 

To me it just sounds like you're upset and bitter that you made a choice, only to find out you paid a "higher price" when another option was available. There is no underhanded thing that Anet is doing here. Prices and what you get for said prices are clearly published if you decide to read a bit.

Anyway, so what? Go buy a bag slot expansion or 5, and fill 4 of them with cheaper 20 slot bags and 1 (or however many you made) with your crafted 32 slot bag. It is still larger capacity.

If you have enough gold to do the achievement, you can just turn that gold into gems. What's wrong with burning through digital materials or digital gold to get some digital reward? If the gemstone was just basically the "trading post," would you feel different? You can even play whatever content you like (don't have to do an achievement that you obviously didn't enjoy) to get liquid gold to convert to gems. This is great if you ask me!

Now, do I think Anet has so much inventory trash to make people to want to buy bag slot expansions? Yeah, probably. I also don't like the mentality of "invented problems" to offer "premium solutions" as well. Garbage if you ask me, and I guess if you were going to get mad at the gem store about anything, then sure...I can agree with you there. But, you are literally upset about two different mathematical functions for inventory management, with the gem store one being the easiest/cheapest (even if you just farm for gold in-game). That is why I don't understand your post. You made a mistake and are saying it is the game's fault. 

Anyway, for what it's worth I also did that achievement as well. It gives dozens of weapon skins, a title, and a mastery point. So it isn't just bags... I enjoyed it. I haven't crafted one 32 slot bag from it though...

Sorry you feel like you were cheated. Guess that's all I can really say...

[Stelawrat.6589]

59 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

... All discussions about rewards and what’s required to get them are now moot. 

It's not that these discussions are moot, but the OP doesn't do himself any favours by slandering the entity he's trying to engage with, not a useful method to encourage any discussion. 

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Aerensiniac.3584
"You are more than just inept if you put "achievements" in your game which fulfill the exact opposite purpose of the word and take from the players while at the same time make them feel utterly stupid. It's probably closer to intentionally being destructive towards the game and your players.

The point is that the entire boreal bag achievement is a joke. You do not achieve anything, you literally get lied to take a detrimental path to inventory expansion. This is not an achievement, this is the equivalent of the developers degrading themselves to a used car salesman who tries to screw you over just for the sport of it, and degrade you as the player into a literal clown.

Its the "achievement". You "achieved" paying double and for half the benefit you can get by going through gem currency.

Why do you put something in the game as an ACHIEVEMENT no less, that makes the player feel like a clown and FORCES to view the developer team as a hustling, liar, car sales man?

Thats not how "achievements" work? Thats not how any of this is supposed to work?

Thats.... nice to know i guess... aside from the fact that i will need a few hours to internalize the idea that games exist where achievements are detriments, and that this is viewed as a normal thing by the players... that... is brand new to me, ill admit."

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Clearly the OP feels that he's been intentionally duped, deliberately misled by the term "achievement" & that GW2's developers are responsible for this & deserve his labeling as a result. 

As with the OP, I have played many games over the years. Unlike the OP, I've never felt GW2's developers have intentionally tried to dupe me and / or mislead me with any terminology. 

I'm not a whale, I look before I leap & bypass what is beyond me. Of all the games that I've played over the years, Guild Wars 2 is one of the most well documented, transparent games. It is one of my all time favourites. 

Hopefully the OP will be able to find some happiness in this game, in the future as well. 

[Fueki.4753]

I never understood why people need the biggest bags or additional bag slots.

I'm perfectly fine with my four basic bag slots that each have a bag 20 spaces in them, for a total of 100 inventory spaces.

Unless I'm doing a big Meta like Drizzlewood Coast or Dragonfall and identify the green and blue gear afterwards, I never fill all 100 spaces.

[Astralporing.1957]

So, which achievement exactly requires you to craft that bag?

[Strider Pj.2193]

Maybe I am reading you wrong (and I could easily be doing just that) but are you really going to let 1 wonky achievement ruin your perception of the game?  

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

So, which achievement exactly requires you to craft that bag?

Not craft, but as a reward:  https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illuminated_Boreal_Weapons

Though, here is some interesting information: The Reinforced Boreal Trunk is the least expensive 32-slot bag in that it only requires a total of 12 Supreme Runes of Holding to construct, whereas the other 32-slot bags need 18 each and all other Materials can be easily acquired by opening the Bjora Marches Essence Chests daily.