Don't hold your breath for a Catalyst Fix

[Merrex.5384]

They are already committed to what they already have I don't understand why anyone would want a hammer as a Ele but hey They know more than we do about what's good for the Profession and it's long term Balance in the game. The Ele has to be one of the most complex Professions out there to code into the game you get 5 special weapon skills for each element you are in that is almost like having 4 different weapon swaps on just one 2 handed weapon (And then there are the underwater weapons ) so its Most likely a major head ache for the Devs I can only imagine how hard it was to code the Weaver. so maybe this time around they are not going to spend as much effort on the profession as the last 2 times ( maybe this time around they told the team look we cant spend that much time on the Ele as we did in the past it is just not cost effective ) . I feel your pains no one really needs you for a Group because you don't bring anything special to the Table, what ever you can do other professions do it better . The new expansion is right around the corner they are not going to scrap anything or do any major changes they have way to many things that are more important to work on. I personally had dreams of a mage arch type with a Rifle ( Sniper ) or a Pistol (Gunslinger)  that shoots magic out of it Or a Summoner Mage that can Summon Permanent Elementals Similar to necro minions or Just one real awesome single Elemental similar to the Engi Mech Or a Ranger pet But those Dreams have been shattered and I have come to except the Fate of the Elementalist . RIP Catalyst

Edited November 8, 2021 by Merrex.5384

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I'm not expecting a gigantic overhaul.  Animations and effects are quite difficult to change.  However, the traits and coefficients can be altered quite a bit.  In theory the catalyst can become quite strong if it is given the Scrapper treatment.

[AshenOwl.2485]

Some of y'all are so dramatic, I swear. I don't think most of us expect a complete overhaul, that's unreasonable. But there are interesting concepts in Catalyst that can be capitalized on to give the spec synergy, things that can be removed to reduce thematic and mechanical bloat, and identity that can be salvaged if they take the time to really look it over.

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I'm not expecting a gigantic overhaul.  Animations and effects are quite difficult to change.  However, the traits and coefficients can be altered quite a bit.  In theory the catalyst can become quite strong if it is given the Scrapper treatment.

The issue is not in being strong or not (catalyst pack a punch on large target already). No, the issue is that elementalist need something fresh and pleasant to play and catalyst is anything but fresh and pleasant to play.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

3 hours ago, Merrex.5384 said:

They know more than we do about what's good for the Profession and it's long term Balance in the game.

After years of watching balance patches and class reworks I really doubt this.

[crosknight.3041]

im honestly perfectly fine with getting a hammer, it's the jade orbs functionality utilites and traits that need changing (specificly to be more combo field/finisher focused).

some of the abilities on hammer could use a tune up/finisher (and get those hammer orbs outta there, that deserves to be on weaver)

 

[Downstate.4697]

Im more disappointed we didnt get longbow than the fact that we got hammer. 

[Gorani.7205]

6 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I'm not expecting a gigantic overhaul.  Animations and effects are quite difficult to change.  However, the traits and coefficients can be altered quite a bit.  In theory the catalyst can become quite strong if it is given the Scrapper treatment.

Kind of this...

I think there is still a little room for tweaking the energy mechanic on the Jade Sphere (IMO, get rid of it, place a CD on the ability to replace it to a new spot). Make Augments better as Utility skills. And work on "numbers" on skills and traits.

Everything else is nothing we can expect to happen: No hammer, animations, most skill execution and design concept, turning Jade Spheres into an Ammo / Shade system etc.

[Anthony.8056]

Throwing numbers at it won't fix the clunkiness and slowness of the weapon. I never look at numbers because they are always going to be an on going balance and it will get nerfed even more. It should be fluid and fun to play even though that is subjective. It should be able to give a good amount damage without it being so restrictive while other classes excel just by pushing one button. I think the excuse for the nerfs and it being to strong is getting old, this class along with the others are still stuck in 2012.

 

I find the previous specs on Ele to be fun play especially weaver but I don't get that with the hammer or the overall spec. It's trying to do alot by merging the previous specs into one and failing. I personally wanted a longbow for the Elementalist.

[Infusion.7149]

Why bother lamenting elementalist, if after beta 4 it's still a trainwreck just play one of the broken ones if it's just PVE... (probably will be specter played well 50K, bladesworn 50K+ , harbinger 45K+ , ... to a lesser extent Virtuoso 42K+ )

For WVW none of the specs look promising whatsoever unless you roam a lot then maybe specter.

[Tungsten Monarch.6058]

I look at it this way, THERE IS ALWAYS THE TEMPEST.

yes, the Catalyst is "kittens" terrible during beta.

[Tabootrinket.2631]

I don't know...
I think almost everyone in every single platform talking about the especs made it very clear that Catalyst is bottom of the barrell by far as presented.
There is still the chance that it might have been put into one the top priorities among the "to fix" list after beta. We may actually get surprised.

If that's not the case, well, I got my thief on standby.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Tabootrinket.2631

[Merrex.5384]

8 minutes ago, Tabootrinket.2631 said:

I don't know...
I think almost everyone in every single platform talking about the especs made it very clear that Catalyst is bottom of the barrell by far as presented.
There is still the chance that it might have been put into one the top priorities among the "to fix" list after beta. We may actually get surprised.

If that's not the case, well, I got my thief on standby.

They have to fine tune DX11 ( I am kind of amazed that this works as well as it does )  plus WvW alliances ( Not sure this is ever going to function well  ) And  make sure that all the NPC's and encounters work well before Launch. Oh then they need to make sure we have fishing and new mounts. I could go on and on but the Elementalist is just one profession They need to redirect all resources to making sure the game is Crash proof and fun for everyone not just one Profession. It is not like the Elementalist has ever played a Pivital role in the game even from day one no groups are looking for the Ele in the LFG section ( go look for yourself ) Sadly Your never going to see a fractal or raid group looking for a Elementalist period. Like someone already pointed out the Calayst needed something new fresh and fun not Clunky Slow and worse in every way.

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Tabootrinket.2631 said:

I don't know...
I think almost everyone in every single platform talking about the especs made it very clear that Catalyst is bottom of the barrell by far as presented.
There is still the chance that it might have been put into one the top priorities among the "to fix" list after beta. We may actually get surprised.

If that's not the case, well, I got my thief on standby.

There's people claiming virtuoso is worse lmao (maybe in PVP/WVW but definitely not in PVE) when catalyst and untamed exist.

[Wintermute.5408]

4 hours ago, Anthony.8056 said:

Throwing numbers at it won't fix the clunkiness and slowness of the weapon.

Those can also be easily changed. Reaper GS received many casting and aftercast animation tweaks over time.

[Aedil.1296]

Edited: Removed a long and bitter post. It's useless anyway. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Aedil.1296

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

This is my status about the game after 9 years, don't see it like a call or something against the game. 
...But Elementalist spec could convince me to play the next Ex-pack far ahead of everything else.
I have less time, less desire for group content, pvp etc ; all I want is  fun specs for OW and WvW; obviously catalyst won't be the only argument, but clearly be crucial. So I keep hoping they fix catalyst, yeah !

 

 

 

[Jski.6180]

I think we will see some number changes longer boons and some cdr but i do not know how many real updates to skills. The hammer needs more combo effects both fields and finisher (2 realty big spin attks not being combos is a big let down.)

[Shiyo.3578]

The devs very clearly have a different vision for Elementalist than the entire player base. They will double down on their decision and keep forcing their ideas onto you, despite Ele being one of the least played classes, with a lot of mind-boggling balance decisions surrounding it. Their goal is to make a class no one wants to play.

 

I don't understand why, but it's the only logical conclusion I can come to.

[Dadnir.5038]

3 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

The devs very clearly have a different vision for Elementalist than the entire player base. They will double down on their decision and keep forcing their ideas onto you, despite Ele being one of the least played classes, with a lot of mind-boggling balance decisions surrounding it. Their goal is to make a class no one wants to play.

I don't understand why, but it's the only logical conclusion I can come to.

I don't think their goal is that no one play it. It's more that they look at the core intent of the elementalist which is to cycle between elements as much as possible and try to enforce it as much as possible. The issue is that it's not really an "user friendly" gameplay and that there is limited amount of variation of a "non-user friendly" gameplay that a player can tolerate/enjoy.

You also have to keep in mind that, while a few players enjoy the complexity of using all 4 attunments at once, most of the casual players would rather be able to make the most out of a single element and the "top players" will always try to optimize and go for the most effective combinations of attunments. Both the casual and top player mindset goes against the core design in the end which might be why the devs tried to push the use of all 4 attunments onto "top players" with catalyst via the hammer, setting aside the vast majority of players that the casuals are. While also trying to "please" casual players by giving them a less straining gameplay revolving around the use of F5. Unfortunately it result in a mess of a spec who's design isn't really cohesive (If you add the focus on aura on top of that it's even worse...).

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

They could honestly combine tempest and catalyst and it wouldnt be unreasonably strong. They really need to start over from scratch with some of the EoD specs.

[SkinnyT.5382]

I don't expect an overhaul, which is flat out unrealistic, but I do really wish that the hammer skills would be consistent as far as their range is concerned. Don't make half the elements close range and the other half mid range. Pick just one (mid range preferably). I could deal with the elite and utilities from the core ones.

Edited November 12, 2021 by SkinnyT.5382

[ScottBroChill.3254]

umm if the current rendition of ele is too complicated for them to code in a meaningful manner then i believe anet has bit off more than they can chew and to quit trying to make complicated professions if it's too much for them. But I don't think that's the case. I think they just have bad designers who don't have a cohesive plan/concept for catalyst and so it's a hodge podge of ideas with no direction. The difficulty in trying to fix catalyst is still just the fact of them deciding what they want it to accomplish and buffing it in those areas, and removing whatever is left that is unimportant or doesn't make sense and clutters up the traits and rest of the spec. They made so many traits and such to focus on auras, focus on making the mechanic work, and trying to keep up that stupid buff that there isn't much room left in terms of tools to survive a battle. Add that to the contradictory playstyle of catahammer of camping attunements for a specific range/mechanic combo field/whatever and then the random mechanic of fast swapping for hammer 3.. It just feels like hammer 3 overshadows everything and when using it you really kind of miss out on all the other weapon skills. And hammer 3 as of a the beta is a big part of the damage it provides even at the awkward distance. Which results in a pretty lame way to play.  I feel like the idea is hammer has 2 ranges of melee and semi-medium range and the hammer 3 is suppose to be like an asteroid belt in between so that enemies within those three ranges are constantly getting pummeled, but it doesn't really translate into anything effective in a competitive sense. Mostly only seems good for raid/fractal bosses in which you have the full support of a party to provide you with the "steady presence in combat" that the spec advertises. 

tl;dr catalyst needs to pick something to focus on and drop the rest of the crap that clutters the spec providing more room for interesting traits and less overly complicated rotations.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

I highly doubt that Eles are "hard to code" at all, I mean other classes do have Weapon swap, so they could just implement this "swap" but instead of weapons, they would use unique skills on 1 weapon combo. That should be fairly easy, even could use mere Switch on that if I'm not wrong.
The Weaver probably was a lot more tricky to code than Teefs Dual skills that's for sure.
In case of Craptalyst, that e-spec is bad from design level.
The problem here with all elite specializations for Ele is that the Core class is holding them back by a lot because of it's unique design of 4 attuments. On top of that the very system of elite specialization is also conflicting with it. Most classes CAN alter to some degree their Unique class skills (F1-F5), but in case of Ele, it's not possible to do it effectively.
IMO, elite specialization system should be completely scrapped and made into "subclasses" system which would completely allow to change your whole class mechanic. 
In that system you would have (currently) 3 major possible options for furher customization:
Core Elementalist - current core class
Weaver - You lose all Fire/Water/Air/Earth Attuments and now you pick 2 elements to combine them to gain 1 new one (Fire+Earth=Lava, Fire+Water=Vapor, etc.) and you're capable of equipping 2 of these picked mixes for "swapping" between them.
Tempest - You lose all Attuments and gain power to channel ONLY storms based spells, but you gain weapon swap and your F1-F4 are capable of bringing cataclysms.
But we all know A-net won't do anything like that, cause that would require time and effort and we don't do these here.
Let's be honest here, I don't have any expectations for upcoming changes to craptalyst and I'll still be dissappointed by them.

[Infusion.7149]

Well since a rework isn't likely they could do some simple things to focus on the "tanky in melee" aspect:

Hammer tweaks to reduce extreme variance (as all other weapons are not capable enough to run on catalyst in its current state)

• make the hammer 3 loop hit everything within 180 or 200 radius rather than at 200 radius if damage is kept , meaning it actually means something in PVP for example
• make hammer 3 loop completely defensive (remove burning/bleeding) unless you use the grand finale skill and then put some bleeding on earth hammer auto , reducing complexity and server-side calculation massively
• lengthen hammer 3 loop durations
• lower cast times a bit on melee ranged skills (i.e. Rain of Blows or Whirling Stones): ranged skills have the cast time as a tradeoff if there is high damage attached. An alternative is to up the damage on the melee range skills so you don't need to use every damage skill on 4 attunements to out-damage an alacrity renegade when you can't abuse the hammer 3 orb multi-hitting.
• Add combo fields and finishers to reduce reliance on jade orb. This is especially important for WVW usage.

---> Triple Sear = Fire field

---> Whirling Stones = Whirl .. why is it not

---> Wind Storm = Leap , for aura generation ... also shocking aura is extremely strong and accessible from Elemental Epitome

• Make hammer auto on fire attunement cleave 3-5 targets or pierce. This is especially important for WVW usage.

Jade sphere, boon support/combo field depending on traits
(this is lower priority as from what I've seen it isn't able to provide quickness without low DPS and basically camping air often , unlike cQB/scrapper/StM chrono)

• Remove initial energy buildup altogether as the indicator bar is ridiculously small and makes the jade sphere unable to provide boons properly (i.e. burst). Instead the effect can drain energy rather than building energy on hit to cast it , see Celestial Avatar , energy on revenant , initiative on thieves. Even the rollerbeetle endurance is an example of this type of change.
• Make jade sphere similar to warrior banners and druid spirits in that dismissing it early does not put it on full cooldown. Why does it lose energy when dismissing if you have no energy to start with I have no idea.  If it isn't part of basic jade sphere function at least have it on Sphere Specialist , such that it isn't just 50% boon duration as you no longer lose energy on dismissal : jade sphere already is gated by cooldown.

Change elemental empowerment to be stats that don't make it completely all over the place

• Elemental Empowerment could be retuned to be power, condition damage, and healing power. This covers all archetypes including full support (which it can't really do since it isn't a strong healing source), DPS quickness "boon support" , and full DPS. A precision or expertise stat gain typically has low fluctuation, such as quickness firebrand , berserker (on/off), soulbeast (on/off), reaper (on/off). A similar problem can be seen on Attacker's Insight on Spellbreaker. This is not similar to something that is reliant on a readily available boon (see Vicious Quarry on rangers running skirmishing or Righteous Instincts on power guardians).
• In its current state if you spec with Empowered Empowerment you could be missing 20% of your condition/boon duration , ~20% of precision, or a sizeable amount of expertise. Having toughness increase is also not a good thing (you're at 1200 toughness if you run this with full viper gear , 1967 if you run celestial) so perhaps it should only focus on offensive stats.

Increase survivability when auras aren't up , it's not a heal spec really

• Hardened auras could give you +10% incoming heal when within jade sphere for example (which makes it inherently balanced for competitive modes) or +10% vitality based on power. It is far more potent when you have free auras from running the fire traitline (due to Sunspot) which makes the power-based air+water archetype weaker. As an alternative Icy Loop / Rocky Loop could reduce incoming damage further with hardened auras.
• Evasive Empowerment doesn't seem fitting since spec doesn't have many evades. The best you could do is probably dagger mainhand with burning speed...

Since it's not a heal spec it needs traits similar to Soulbeast's second skin (-33% incoming condition damage while you have protection), Scourge's Blood as Sand (-15% incoming damage if you have 3 shades), Holo's Light Density Amplifier (-15% incoming damage in Photon Forge), Daredevil's Marauder's Resilience (-10% incoming damage in range), Deadeye's Iron sight (-10% incoming damage from marked), Herald's Hardening Persistence (-1.5% incoming damage per upkeep), DH's Hunter's Fortification (-10% incoming damage when you don't have conditions), etc.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Infusion.7149