Untamed Beta 4 changes + ambush skills

[Arheundel.6451]

7 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

@Beddo.1907Nope, that part is removed as well. You now get either a defensive or offensive buff without giving up anything in return.

And the pet not automatically performing attacks is also not giving up anything, it just requires you to press more buttons, but the pet can still do absolutely everything it can do if you are not untamed.

All trade offs for this spec got removed. Ranger gets special treatment of receiving all goodies without giving anything up.

The ones getting special treatment are part of the PvP/WvW meta now and seen as soulbeast/druid are not part of either...I'd say ranger always receive a proper trade off where you get penalized for playing a spec...current meta specs like holosmith parade around talking about trade off for losing...their toolbelt when we all know that holo makes literally an engi 2.0....let's stop this drama about trade-off.....otherwise we must see that holosmith receive a proper one...

[Shrapnel.7249]

QoL changes are welcome for sure. I love that they reduced the cooldown of Unleashed. Shocking that they brought it to 1s. Ambush skills sound excellent, I hope they are properly suited to each weapon design though. Very thankful they are tweaking the hammer as well. The leap and removal of rooting animations are necessary for the weapon to have any chance of being viable in PvP or WvW. Overall I would say I am very pleased with the direction they have pivoted. The next round of beta will be a great opportunity to fine tune it further when you can actually command your pet. 

[Aleksander Suburb.4287]

I must test it, but to me it seems that there are already too much luck factors especially in combination with the pet (hitting dazed enemies, blast skill for pet) 

My prophecy: after release some guys do some strong, lucky combinations. Every strike hits, enemy was dazed every time you hit with unleashed hammer and the pet is luckily on right position. The result of these lucky hits is nerfing the whole class (too much dmg!!) and you can't play untamed in competitive game. 

The ambush skills will be very funny. This would be a better class mechanic than the ai pet. 

I hope the extra boons on the cantrip skills are also for nearby allies. Otherwise there would be no chance for untamed as a wvw zerg class. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Aleksander Suburb.4287

[Arheundel.6451]

12 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Ambush skills from Mighty Teapots stream.

Greatsword: 360 spin that removes boons, does more damage then Maul in PvE, less then Maul in PvP

Hammer gets one: channel spin attack with increased movement speed

Sword: Leap with aoe daze

Melee ambush attacks spawn one spore from the utility skill on each enemy hit.

Axe: throws axe at all enemies in 360 radius does bleed and some imob

Shortbow: Creates triangle shaped explosion on ground that does poison. If target already poisoned applies torment and weakness

Longbow: Shoots projectile. Hits multiple enemies around the target. Reduces CD on the rest of longbow skills. 3 seconds on first enemy hit, 1 for each other enemy.

 

Sounds amazing.

Yeah this is definitely multiple steps in the right direction

[Arheundel.6451]

14 hours ago, InsaneQR.7412 said:

Seems good. But it also depends how the new ambush skills turn out.

 

The cantrip changes are probably the best part but the increased mobility on hammer and the traits also seem nice.

 

Lets see.

That's the kind of sustain I want and need from a frontline spec, although ......i see no stability

[kappa.2036]

They still forgot about the Stow pet option, which is very important, especially in wvw. Having your pet revealed while you and your group are stealth-pushing will reveal your position.

 

Other than this, nice changes, but Untamed is still missing a defined role in end game content.

[InsaneQR.7412]

42 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

That's the kind of sustain I want and need from a frontline spec, although ......i see no stability

I think some will be on the cantrips iirc.

Also stab on disable is also ona trait.

It seems a bit sparce tbh but the ambush skills may eleviate some need for stab too but we dont know yet.

[Levetty.1279]

30 minutes ago, InsaneQR.7412 said:

I think some will be on the cantrips iirc.

Also stab on disable is also ona trait.

It seems a bit sparce tbh but the ambush skills may eleviate some need for stab too but we dont know yet.

Hammer Ambush has 1 stack of stab but nothing else was mentioned. 

[HotHit.6783]

15 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

They removed the little bit of trade off untamed had and the elite spec is now literally a ranger+.

So much about the trade off philosophy, lmao.

That's thoughts too. It'll depend on how exactly the unleashed Ambush skills function. I expect the devs are intentionally overcorrecting. Our feedback made it clear they were too conservative with the design initially and the Untamed suffered from 3 or more separate trade-offs as a result. Some of those (mainly the pet controls) seeming to be unintended based on the design direction.

 

With their design approach this time making the most of community feedback, I trust they're going to use our feedback this time around to bake in an trade-off. I just hope we get one that affects gameplay in a clean way like Soulbeast losing pet swap and not just lowering numbers like Druid.

[HotHit.6783]

Accidentally posted twice.

Edited November 25, 2021 by HotHit.6783
Whoops sorry.

[RedAvenged.5217]

17 hours ago, Gyousa.5609 said:

Really disappoint that all of the Unleashed pet skills are still identical.

Would really love if they gave a new set of skills for each Archetype of pet.

This

[RedAvenged.5217]

This is mostly good stuff. But I was having fun the way it was lol. I’m still not sure the pet unleashed skill is strong though....

but I’ll take it with a grain of salt

[aymnad.9023]

It sounds incredible in such a short amount of time. Some things were probably already thought earlier and they waited the first beta but it still is impressive.

There is a lot to praise so I am going to start by the 1 thing I think is a negative.

Vow of the untamed : The drawback was huge before and because there was a 10s cd it was punishing and not encouraging combos. Now that the cd is short I think you should have kept it with a smaller number (maybe 5-7%?)

 

The rest is exciting. I love the idea of an ambush skill. Some sound really strong (axe) and others are going great with the rest of the untamed kit(love to see the gs with the dh like roots). The reduction of the unleash cd is going to feel so good, I love that there are more boon removal options, the small changes to hammer (it seems like they are really trying to push it in PvE even if this spec was not meant to challenge soulbeast), boons / effects with unleash on each utility, rework of the heal, more impactful traits that are going to make the gameplay feel different.

 

I really want to give it another try.

Edited November 25, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

Several steps in the right direction, though I can't help but think that if "The Untamed is the first Ranger elite specialization to improve the power and utility of your pet, and it fell short of the mark." Then why have they not improved the power or utility of the pet, at all?

It still doesn't use it's own skills when Unleashed, it still can't hit moving targets since nothing was changed and the additional "utility" is actually just more micromanagement since you can't make the basic skills auto cast which is a loss of power, meaning Untamed pet is no more powerful, but take even more work to operate.

I could go on forever about the skill and trait changes, but they still look like choices made at random, just add a Boon etc.

Mutate Conditions giving Fury is just, why? Make it Resolution or Stab or Prot, we have enough Fury. Unnatural Traversal would make a lot more sense getting Fury on Pet Unleashed for Remorseless setups instead of Regeneration. Traverse->Unleash->Remorseless Untamed Ambush. Regen is just not impactful at all unless you build around it.

[Kodama.6453]

2 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Mutate Conditions giving Fury is just, why? Make it Resolution or Stab or Prot, we have enough Fury. Unnatural Traversal would make a lot more sense getting Fury on Pet Unleashed for Remorseless setups instead of Regeneration. Traverse->Unleash->Remorseless Untamed Ambush. Regen is just not impactful at all unless you build around it.

The cantrips are giving either a defensive or offensive boons based on your leashed status.

If the player is unleashed, they are in "damage mode", therefore cantrips are giving offensive boons like fury, quickness, might, etc. If your pe is unleashed, then the untamed is in "defense mode", so you get defensive boons like stability, protection, vigor, regeneration and resistance.

This is why mutate conditions gives fury and not something like resolution, stab or protection, you are asking them to apply a defensive boon to the cantrip while in offensive mode. This goes against the general design idea behind this concept. Same for unnatural traversal, you want to give it fury (an offensive boon) while the pet is unleashed.... it has regeneration because regeneration is a defensive boon for your defensive mode.

It's absolutely not random like you claim to. There is a theme and general design concept behind which you didn't seem to have grasped.

[Shiyo.3578]

On 11/24/2021 at 5:56 PM, Kodama.6453 said:

They removed the little bit of trade off untamed had and the elite spec is now literally a ranger+.

So much about the trade off philosophy, lmao.

Trade offs were a mistake and need to go away forever.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

The cantrips are giving either a defensive or offensive boons based on your leashed status.

If the player is unleashed, they are in "damage mode", therefore cantrips are giving offensive boons like fury, quickness, might, etc. If your pe is unleashed, then the untamed is in "defense mode", so you get defensive boons like stability, protection, vigor, regeneration and resistance.

This is why mutate conditions gives fury and not something like resolution, stab or protection, you are asking them to apply a defensive boon to the cantrip while in offensive mode. This goes against the general design idea behind this concept. Same for unnatural traversal, you want to give it fury (an offensive boon) while the pet is unleashed.... it has regeneration because regeneration is a defensive boon for your defensive mode.

It's absolutely not random like you claim to. There is a theme and general design concept behind which you didn't seem to have grasped.

It is a theme that is completely pointless and has little to no impact on the spec though.

Merely adding a random (offensive or defensive, it doesn't matter) boon to a skill is pointless unless that boon will help you achieve the ends that the skill is creating, regardless of the theme. Particularly when said skill is applying boons that we already have perma access to.

Oh yeah, great, it's really impactful to get yet another application of Regeneration for that sweet 130hp/s which I already have up 100% of the time from random skills and random other players. You needed to use Mutate Conditions because it is an impactful skill while you are under heavy condi pressure? Oh cool, here is 5s of a boon you already have permanent access to, every 30s.

Who cares? 

I'd argue the theme is backwards anyway, you need the defensive boons to help you continue to deal damage as a Frontline Bruiser spec. It doesn't matter how many offensive boons you can stack if you are not capable of taking damage too. 

And the pet being Unleashed is not "defensive" mode, there is nothing defensive about it, except for these boons which they just added, IF you use a Cantrip. If that is the extent of it's defensive mode, we may as well stick to SB with Moa, and Dolyak which we can share with our team. If it was defensive mode, it would have inherent damage reduction, not a couple of applications of a couple of seconds of a couple of defensive boons if you make a build around it doing that. Literally Moa and Dolyak alone beat the entire build for defense.

What we need is ways to combo the skills and traits together with meaningful synergy and boons that have had thought put into them. The Fury being on Traversal like I described earlier is the best example of offensive use possible which combos the mechanic in damage mode, a core GM trait, the Ambush mechanic and a Cantrip which you can then combo yet again with the Unleashed Thump. If you are using a skill to shadowstep to a foe, you're using it offensively in the vast majority of cases. 

There's no need for them to even be conditional upon state, that's just more needless complexity. Just give both boons (and more logical ones, like Resolution on a condi removal skill with 30s CD), that would make FAR more sense as a Frontline Bruiser Spec.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

[Kaenaydar.5631]

On 11/24/2021 at 4:45 PM, Levetty.1279 said:

Still pretty bad if we can't put certain pet attacks on auto.

How i feel as well if im in a raid or fractal im not going to sit there and be able to order pet to use its skills.

[Kodama.6453]

36 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

And the pet being Unleashed is not "defensive" mode, there is nothing defensive about it, except for these boons which they just added, IF you use a Cantrip. If that is the extent of it's defensive mode, we may as well stick to SB with Moa, and Dolyak which we can share with our team. If it was defensive mode, it would have inherent damage reduction, not a couple of applications of a couple of seconds of a couple of defensive boons if you make a build around it doing that. Literally Moa and Dolyak alone beat the entire build for defense.

You might want to look into the spec design again.

One minor trait of untamed gives modificators based on your leashed status. If you are unleashed, then all your attacks will deal 15% more damage. If your pet is unleashed instead, all the strike damage you take is reduced by 10%. I wonder how deeply you actually really looked into untamed, since it seems that you were also not aware of this mechanic which is fundamental to the elite spec....

The design intention is very clear. Player unleashed is a "damage mode", while the pet being unleashed is a "defense mode". The boons just put more emphasis on this design aspect of the class. Before, it was done by the negative modificators which they now removed (while in damage mode, you took more damage yoursef, while in defense mode, you dealt less damage).

And just because you already have plenty of regeneration it's no reason to forbid the designers to ever put regeneration on any ranger skill ever again.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

40 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

...Before, it was done by the negative modificators which they now removed (while in damage mode, you took more damage yoursef, while in defense mode, you dealt less damage).

And just because you already have plenty of regeneration it's no reason to forbid the designers to ever put regeneration on any ranger skill ever again.

I misread the changes to Vow of the Untamed.

It is a reason actually. A very good one. If a class already has something in abundance, it doesn't need any more of it. Why bother making new specs if they just keep giving you the same stuff as previous specs?

Something better would have been to give synergy with the other many applications of Regen Ranger already has and make it work with core traits. For instance, if they made one of the minors give Barrier when granted or healed by Regeneration, then it would make sense. But just tacking Regen onto a skill (or any other "defensive boon") because it is "defensive" is useless AF. 

There's still no instant ca  stab either.

And I still don't see a good reason for the Unleashed state conditionality on these boons either, they are not that impactful. It is just increased complexity with no point.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

[OGDeadHead.8326]

7 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Several steps in the right direction, though I can't help but think that if "The Untamed is the first Ranger elite specialization to improve the power and utility of your pet, and it fell short of the mark." Then why have they not improved the power or utility of the pet, at all?

This, right here, is 100% true.

They fell short of the mark to improve power and utility of the pet, so they decide to boost the ranger! Hilarious logic right there.

 

The increase in utility I guess they think about when having access to all skills of the pet, fine, but like I and many others have said before, this will lead to more micromanagement to keep up with current efficiency of pets, in short, more work for the (almost) same benefit that we already have.

 

Of course there are some really nice things that opens up with full control:

- You can make sure that birds never again use the useless Quickening Screech

- You can land that Tail Swipe when it's actually wanted

- You can land the awesome Harmonic Cry when YOU want to (this pet skill is likely to get nerfed one way or another)

- and so on

 

But pets won't use their original skills in unleashed state at all (efficiency loss), and many will be hard to micromanage because of short cooldowns of skills (again, efficiency loss).

*

I'd like to remind the devs yet again - implement this:

 

Pet Selection Screen

Edited November 26, 2021 by OGDeadHead.8326

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, OGDeadHead.8326 said:

They fell short of the mark to improve power and utility of the pet, so they decide to boost the ranger! Hilarious logic right there.

I think after players reminded them that the pet (buffed or not) is more of a liability than anything else for a "frontline bruiser" in GW2, they might have come to their sense and invest a bit more ressources in making the Untamed less about the "pet".

[OGDeadHead.8326]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I think after players reminded them that the pet (buffed or not) is more of a liability than anything else for a "frontline bruiser" in GW2, they might have come to their sense and invest a bit more ressources in making the Untamed less about the "pet".

Yes indeed. They could however have thought about a few options to have made this spec a bit more about the pets and their role. For example, have the three major traits actually be about boosting the pet, the middle row focused more on group support and the bottom row focused on the ranger. That's probably how I would have tried to go about it. Three very different styles, with the option to mix between them.

 

For pets, they could have added things like gaining stability, transfer conditions to their opponent, gain evade frames when the ranger dodges, life stealing, reduce damage taken from conditions and 'splash' damage, and so on and on.

 

But yeah, I get it. People hate being killed by 'ai', so there's that.

[Bast Bow.2958]

Aw man these forums, I was afraid for what I’d might find here. 
 

I for one think the changes are awesome, they listened very well and on such short notice. 
 

 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

On 11/24/2021 at 6:11 PM, Kodama.6453 said:

@Beddo.1907Nope, that part is removed as well. You now get either a defensive or offensive buff without giving up anything in return.

And the pet not automatically performing attacks is also not giving up anything, it just requires you to press more buttons, but the pet can still do absolutely everything it can do if you are not untamed.

All trade offs for this spec got removed. Ranger gets special treatment of receiving all goodies without giving anything up.

This whole everything absolutely needs a trade off is such a one dimensional way to look at design or balance. What if the new espec released and it didn't have a trade off but was underperforming compared to core, should it have a trade off, what if it competes on a relatively equal level to core even if not having a trade off, then should a trade off making it inferior to core occur?

I get the whole they could just give untamed a trade off schtik then if it's underperforming buff the spec a bit but let's be realistic on the probability of such here in gw2, how about we leave untamed somewhat exciting and something rangers can look forward to and wait to see how it plays in beta 4 before becoming what is the bane of this game player base.....the its op or nerf everything mentality before it even releases lol.

Last untamed could end up being ranger+...and who cares, its nor like gw2/anet are the poster child's for perfect balancing as there are a ton of overperforming aspects of many classes, underperforming ones as well and most these will probably never be addressed no matter how hopeful u remain. If untamed becomes ranger+ but still sits in a decent spot among the rest of the roster and not overperforming than who cares, other ranger players may still dislike its mechanics, theme or playstyles and still roll core or slb.

Point is let's see how it goes and let ranger mains be excited about their spec :).