Stop trying to make Harbinger power and buff PvE Reaper instead.

[Zenith.7301]

An abysmal 33-34k DPS benchmark under unrealistic, ideal conditions, and you're trying to shoehorn a power traitline to Harbinger which should be the dedicated condition DPS spec.

 

Change Cold Shoulder to a 25% bonus (Untames has 30% modifiers in a single traitline and Vindicator 25% DPS, with far better uptime since you'll never realistically have 100% chill uptime on Reaper).

 

Make Cold Shoulder triggered not only by chill, but Cripple, Blind, and Weakness.

 

25% bonus strike damage on chilled, crippled, blinded, or weakened targets would bring up the benchmark of Reaper to ~37k DPS, passable at the level of current Vindicator tuning, but still short of 40k+ DPS power specs from EoD and still less DPS than the meta PoF power specs (who do 38-39k).

 

On a spec with virtually zero utility.

 

And give Greatsword 3 a 2-3 boon strip. Why is it that only condi specs with scepter get rotational boonstrip utility while Reaper has to use a well utility as an opportunity cost?

 

 

[Lahmia.2193]

Eh. I'd rather it be a purely power support spec. Something akin to Herald. We already have Scourge for our Condi + support and Reaper for our pure power. I'm not against buffing reaper though.

[Zenith.7301]

5 hours ago, Lahmia.2193 said:

Eh. I'd rather it be a purely power support spec. Something akin to Herald. We already have Scourge for our Condi + support and Reaper for our pure power. I'm not against buffing reaper though.

 

 

But Herald is an atrocious power support in PvE, eclipsed by Renegade in every possible way. And considering that even if they gave it a power quickness role, why would you take a Harbinger with less effective survivability than Scrapper or pChrono or quickbrand unless it did significantly more damage to compensate?

 

Not gonna mention that quickness Catalyst is doing 40k+ DPS, with additional utility on top of quickness necromancer as a class has never had access to.

 

If necromancer is going to have support specs, it needs support that isn't atrociously niche.

 

Support scourge is a meme, nobody uses it in PvE outside PUGS for strikes, because barrier reduces CA generation fro the druid that's healing and generating might for the raid, and the rez trait is absolutely worthless in any group that is competent enough to raid.

 

That's why 99.9% of courge usage in PvE is as a DPS, not a support.

[Aktium.9506]

11 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

But Herald is an atrocious power support in PvE, eclipsed by Renegade in every possible way.

Boon Herald lowkey carries groups tho

[Zenith.7301]

6 hours ago, Aktium.9506 said:

Boon Herald lowkey carries groups tho

 

 

So does Tempest or Heal scourge, but they rarely see the light of day because their kit is irrelevant to organized group PvE.

 

You could probably run most raids with 3 healers and DPS in Valkyrie/Marauders gear. But that is so utterly inefficient and not what most people will engage in.

[Raiken.1476]

On 12/4/2021 at 6:20 PM, Lahmia.2193 said:

Eh. I'd rather it be a purely power support spec. Something akin to Herald. We already have Scourge for our Condi + support and Reaper for our pure power. I'm not against buffing reaper though.

Herald is pretty bad on its own, it doesn't do enough damage to justify bringing it for its all too common support qualities. There's also basically nothing in the Reaper toolkit that would allow it to play as a support. The power Harbinger build is a terrible idea that doesn't work because Necromancer lacks the fundamentals (weapons, utilities and modifiers) to do power DPS. The Reaper's power options in a vacuum are incredibly overpowered and it still ends up doing mediocre damage at best. I agree, scrap the power Harbinger traits entirely, give it back the life force drain in one of the traits and make the top line oriented around PvP, sustain and roaming. The Reaper barely manages to scrape a power build out of the Necro skill pool, and unless a second Reaper like spec was released, it stays that way. The Harbinger has exactly nothing it needs to make that work.

[anbujackson.9564]

On 12/4/2021 at 2:14 AM, Zenith.7301 said:

 

And give Greatsword 3 a 2-3 boon strip. Why is it that only condi specs with scepter get rotational boonstrip utility while Reaper has to use a well utility as an opportunity cost?

 

 

Actually there is boonstrip on gs4 or boon corruption rather. A total of 4 if I remember correctly.

For a pulsing effect thats actually good in addition to damage, blinds and a dark field.

And about harbringer: The nerfs were pretty harsh. Now the full dps version does less than scourge which is a million times better with barriers and condi remove. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by anbujackson.9564

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

There's a reason why these elite specs are made to be versatile: not everyone who buys EoD will have bought either PoF or HoT.  That's why Anet tries to avoid shoe-horning one particular playstyle onto a build.  

[Puck.3697]

If I'm correct, the reason reaper does lower DPS is as a trade off for its high sustain and it's low requirement of boons comparitively to other options due to being able to supply itself with loads of self boons by nature. 

I dont think it's realistically balanced for reaper to do more DPS then harbinger. Harbinger has no where near the same sustain.. it's increasingly squishy.

 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

The other reason is that theu want you to buy expansion. Power creep is an argument; at least for few months.

[Zenith.7301]

On 12/6/2021 at 7:44 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

If I'm correct, the reason reaper does lower DPS is as a trade off for its high sustain and it's low requirement of boons comparitively to other options due to being able to supply itself with loads of self boons by nature. 

I dont think it's realistically balanced for reaper to do more DPS then harbinger. Harbinger has no where near the same sustain.. it's increasingly squishy.

 

 

 

REAPER DOES NOT HAVE HIGHER SUSTAIN IN ORGANIZED PVE.

REAPER DOES NOT HAVE HIGHER SUSTAIN IN ORGANIZED PVE.

 

Repeat with me, so this garbage mantra can die in the trash bin of falsehood it belongs to.

 

Reaper cannot received healing while in shroud.

 

Reaper has less access to blocks and vigor, aegis, or stability than other classes. Reaper has less dodges as a result of zero vigor.

 

Reaper damage rotation relies on reaper shroud for a large portion of its damage, using reaper shroud to mitigate damage completely guts your damage output because it removes the life force you need to perform reaper shroud attacks.

 

People who say Reaper has good sustain in organized PvE have no clue how the game works outside their braindead open world PvE autoattack spam.

 

Bonus points if you realize Scourge is vastly better survival because desert shroud gives you 4-6k barrier per use, on top of another 2-3k from your own F2 for mitigation, while still being able to receive healing from the healers.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[frareanselm.1925]

On 12/6/2021 at 1:44 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

If I'm correct, the reason reaper does lower DPS is as a trade off for its high sustain and it's low requirement of boons comparitively to other options due to being able to supply itself with loads of self boons by nature. 

I dont think it's realistically balanced for reaper to do more DPS then harbinger. Harbinger has no where near the same sustain.. it's increasingly squishy.

 

Well if we consider harbinger a (relatively) ranged class and reaper pure melee, historically Anet's posture always has been that melees deserve to do more dps than ranged as a tradeoff of being more exposed and at risk of dying.

Edited December 7, 2021 by frareanselm.1925

[Puck.3697]

17 minutes ago, frareanselm.1925 said:

Well if we consider harbinger a (relatively) ranged class and reaper pure melee, historically Anet's posture always has been that melees deserve to do more dps than ranged as a tradeoff of being more exposed and at risk of dying.

That is true, but at the end of it all one of these options will replace the other sadly. I mean personally I'd of preferred scourge to go more into the support role, harbinger take a Condi role and reaper retain the power option. 

1 hour ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

REAPER DOES NOT HAVE HIGHER SUSTAIN IN ORGANIZED PVE.

REAPER DOES NOT HAVE HIGHER SUSTAIN IN ORGANIZED PVE.

 

Repeat with me, so this garbage mantra can die in the trash bin of falsehood it belongs to.

 

Reaper cannot received healing while in shroud.

 

Reaper has less access to blocks and vigor, aegis, or stability than other classes. Reaper has less dodges as a result of zero vigor.

 

Reaper damage rotation relies on reaper shroud for a large portion of its damage, using reaper shroud to mitigate damage completely guts your damage output because it removes the life force you need to perform reaper shroud attacks.

 

People who say Reaper has good sustain in organized PvE have no clue how the game works outside their braindead open world PvE autoattack spam.

 

Bonus points if you realize Scourge is vastly better survival because desert shroud gives you 4-6k barrier per use, on top of another 2-3k from your own F2 for mitigation, while still being able to receive healing from the healers.

I said if I'm correct that was anets reasoning. I didn't put a opinon down other then reaper has more sustain then harbinger. Which is true. 

Harbinger has most of the same problems as reaper. I.E low evades and defensives. But stacks self blight which decreases their max hp continously. And shroud not giving them any extra hp. 

Harbinger is defintly squishier.

[Downstate.4697]

I agree that it shouldnt be a replacement for reaper. Its much better at using hybrid damage than core and reaper and can offer a bit more team support with elixers and weakness uptime. For pvp it could be a good counter to the power meta and normalize the use of hybrid stats.

Thats also a partial counter to dedicated support since they usually dont have enough resources to deal with healing through power damage and cleansing conditions. This sets up something rather important that made core game fun; team mates building for damage + support options to cover for the team instead of 1 person doing it. Basically harbinger has the potential to blur the lines of established pvp roles.

[Teratus.2859]

Keep in mind Harbinger is a ranged based spec and ranged based stuff tends to be and should be doing less dps than your melee focused builds because just playing at range is in itself a survivability buff in PvE.

Specially when you have access to AI mechanics that can take aggro which Harbinger does.

And as far as Reaper not having high sustain goes.. you couldn't be more wrong.
Reaper Minion Masters are one of the most bulky and hard to kill things in this game.

[Puck.3697]

18 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Keep in mind Harbinger is a ranged based spec and ranged based stuff tends to be and should be doing less dps than your melee focused builds because just playing at range is in itself a survivability buff in PvE.

Specially when you have access to AI mechanics that can take aggro which Harbinger does.

And as far as Reaper not having high sustain goes.. you couldn't be more wrong.
Reaper Minion Masters are one of the most bulky and hard to kill things in this game.

He said in organized PvE content. 

Id also like to state, does ranged really exist in PvE given the nature of having to stack in melee range with any weapon for boon sharing and healing. 

Being ranged isn't realistically a survivability buff. When the game mechanics puts you in melee combat anyway. 

Scourges ranged DPS build has been outdpsing melee reaper for a long time now in all honesty.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

So, OP wants Anet to buff Reaper power DPS because they (wrongly) believe they are pushing Harbinger as a direct DPS spec because it has some direct DPS buffing traits? That's a stretch. 

[Puck.3697]

12 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So, OP wants Anet to buff Reaper power DPS because they (wrongly) believe they are pushing Harbinger as a direct DPS spec because it has some direct DPS buffing traits? That's a stretch. 

No I think OP is expressing they aren't happy that necromancer is going to have 2 elite speccs primarily using power speccs so it doesn't feel like one will replace the other depending on balance. 

And it's based around the fact currently power harbinger does more DPS then power reaper realistically. 

Sadly though these things happen. Herald and vindicator for example are both power speccs. 

But reaper will always be a better PvP choice then harbinger will (or atleast in current iteration) so it's not the worst thing in the world. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Methuselah.4376]

On 12/4/2021 at 2:14 AM, Zenith.7301 said:

An abysmal 33-34k DPS benchmark under unrealistic, ideal conditions, and you're trying to shoehorn a power traitline to Harbinger which should be the dedicated condition DPS spec.

 

Change Cold Shoulder to a 25% bonus (Untames has 30% modifiers in a single traitline and Vindicator 25% DPS, with far better uptime since you'll never realistically have 100% chill uptime on Reaper).

 

Make Cold Shoulder triggered not only by chill, but Cripple, Blind, and Weakness.

 

25% bonus strike damage on chilled, crippled, blinded, or weakened targets would bring up the benchmark of Reaper to ~37k DPS, passable at the level of current Vindicator tuning, but still short of 40k+ DPS power specs from EoD and still less DPS than the meta PoF power specs (who do 38-39k).

 

On a spec with virtually zero utility.

 

And give Greatsword 3 a 2-3 boon strip. Why is it that only condi specs with scepter get rotational boonstrip utility while Reaper has to use a well utility as an opportunity cost?

 

 

It wouldn't be a wise thing to overload Cold Shoulder with more damage modifiers. And honestly, in a raid setting I never had issues maintaining chill so I do not think it should proc off Cripple, Blind and Weakness. I much prefer spreading out damage modifiers on the core traitlines. Such as adding a +10% strike damage modifier on Siphoned Power when under the effects of might and Unyielding Blast also gives a +5% damage modifier against enemies with vulnerability. The modifiers synergize well with what the traits/traitlines inherently do so there's an interaction that needs to happen and it's not just a boring flat extra  damage. This also means that it's not busted because might can be removed and vulnerability can be cleansed.  

This is what's missing from necromancer: decent damage modifiers on core traitlines. I'd adjust Soul Barbs to lasting 15 seconds, and Gravedigger always being a critical strike. These should put power Reaper at a comfortable 39k benchmark. 

Also, do note that Nightfall (GS4) has boon corruption. 

[Asum.4960]

13 minutes ago, Methuselah.4376 said:

It wouldn't be a wise thing to overload Cold Shoulder with more damage modifiers. And honestly, in a raid setting I never had issues maintaining chill so I do not think it should proc off Cripple, Blind and Weakness. I much prefer spreading out damage modifiers on the core traitlines. Such as adding a +10% strike damage modifier on Siphoned Power when under the effects of might and Unyielding Blast also gives a +5% damage modifier against enemies with vulnerability. The modifiers synergize well with what the traits/traitlines inherently do so there's an interaction that needs to happen and it's not just a boring flat extra  damage. This also means that it's not busted because might can be removed and vulnerability can be cleansed.  

This is what's missing from necromancer: decent damage modifiers on core traitlines. I'd adjust Soul Barbs to lasting 15 seconds, and Gravedigger always being a critical strike. These should put power Reaper at a comfortable 39k benchmark. 

Also, do note that Nightfall (GS4) has boon corruption. 

Yea, I like those ideas. Spite can definitely use a look at (along with core Necromancer weapons) to get power builds more viability. 

Especially the on 50% enemy HP Traits, Death's Embrace and Siphoned Power, I feel haven't aged all that well. 

 

Applying 5 Vuln for 8 seconds every 10 seconds on enemies below 50% health is pretty meek - maybe something like Targeted Destruction could go there (although a lot of Vuln was stripped from Spite with things like Rending Shroud getting deleted, so beyond Bitter Chill there wouldn't be much self synergy in the line, relying on SR - not that it matters for group content). I do think Unyielding Blast (and SR in general) provides enough value as is though. 

 

But even with that, adding damage modifiers to everything is still just a bandaid fix - really I'd much rather see weapon reworks and coefficient buffs along with a global culling back of bland damage modifier and stat gain Traits (not just for Necro), and instead more genuinely interesting and situationally transformative options which we pick depending on what playstyles we prefer, rather than just playing catch it all with modifiers. 

That seems like a pipe dream at this point though.

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

No I think OP is expressing they aren't happy that necromancer is going to have 2 elite speccs primarily using power speccs so it doesn't feel like one will replace the other depending on balance. 

And it's based around the fact currently power harbinger does more DPS then power reaper realistically. 

Sadly though these things happen. Herald and vindicator for example are both power speccs. 

But reaper will always be a better PvP choice then harbinger will (or atleast in current iteration) so it's not the worst thing in the world. 

Well, it's inevitable we have overlap. I think the main thing to consider is that their is more to the specs than DPS output and if we want Anet to make all spec choices meaningful, we have to think outside of this "DPS" box that people are narrowly focused on. 

[Asum.4960]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, it's inevitable we have overlap. I think the main thing to consider is that their is more to the specs than DPS output and if we want Anet to make all spec choices meaningful, we have to think outside of this "DPS" box that people are narrowly focused on. 

While I agree, even just considering that metric I think it's fine to have multiple specs on a profession filling the same role but different, both mechanically and theme wise. 

 

Imo the problem is more lack of mechanical distinction and theme. If the choices aren't meaningful and we just use the same passive modifiers for everything to reach different numbers, it's not surprising that that's all that players are focusing on.

Like if both condi Harbinger and condi Scourge as well as power Harbinger and Power Reaper use the exact same Traits and largely same utility skills and you are kind of just doing the same thing, all while not really having a very compelling theme either (at least imo potion throwing gunslinger acrobat that's also shooting magic bolts, isn't the most compelling Necromancer, or even just in general, theme), then it really just comes down to who does it better. 

 

There's just too little there in terms of Trait interactions and unique mechanics to set them apart, beyond the numbers they do. 

Now if for example the optimal setup for DPS Reaper was Death Magic + Soul Reaping, for Scourge Curses + Soul Reaping, and for Harbinger Blood Magic + Spite, or something more differentiated like that, with the specs feeling drastically different to play via fresh-feeling Trait interactions and synergies from spec to spec, personal preference of how you want to play and what theme to lean into would come a lot more into play. 

Unfortunately Trait choices for PvE are mostly just about collecting the most passive modifiers, which are in the same spots for every spec - largely condi or power being the only distinction, rather than mechanics.

If the Life Steal in BM for example was actually worth a kitten (more akin to Battle Scars tuning), that could have been a really cool way to differentiate Harbinger with it's rapid fire Shroud AA, and Pistol and Shroud 2 - in contrast to the largely slow swinging Reaper synergising better with modifiers - while also compensating it's increased squishyness with sustain through that by it's innate synergy with it. 

As is (and with Traits setup as they currently are), it's just largely the same, either objectively better or worse.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Zenith.7301]

6 hours ago, Methuselah.4376 said:

It wouldn't be a wise thing to overload Cold Shoulder with more damage modifiers. And honestly, in a raid setting I never had issues maintaining chill so I do not think it should proc off Cripple, Blind and Weakness. I much prefer spreading out damage modifiers on the core traitlines. Such as adding a +10% strike damage modifier on Siphoned Power when under the effects of might and Unyielding Blast also gives a +5% damage modifier against enemies with vulnerability. The modifiers synergize well with what the traits/traitlines inherently do so there's an interaction that needs to happen and it's not just a boring flat extra  damage. This also means that it's not busted because might can be removed and vulnerability can be cleansed.  

This is what's missing from necromancer: decent damage modifiers on core traitlines. I'd adjust Soul Barbs to lasting 15 seconds, and Gravedigger always being a critical strike. These should put power Reaper at a comfortable 39k benchmark. 

Also, do note that Nightfall (GS4) has boon corruption. 

 

 

Putting modifiers on core traitlines doesn't help reaper if the competing elite specs it's up against also benefit from it.

 

Reaper is supposed to be the power DPS elite spec, and it currently fails really badly at it in raids. It is eclipsed by scourge in every way, and now will be eclipsed by Harbinger as well.

 

And that's just intraclass balance. When compared against other classes, it's actually in a worse state than power revenant, and that's hard to beat.

 

Nightfall is ineffective as a boon corruptions compared to feast of corruption. For one, much longer cd, and the ability is used rotationally in a longer loop. It's a far inferior tool for boon strip.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Puck.3697]

13 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

Putting modifiers on core traitlines doesn't help reaper if the competing elite specs it's up against also benefit from it.

 

Reaper is supposed to be the power DPS elite spec, and it currently fails really badly at it in raids. It is eclipsed by scourge in every way, and now will be eclipsed by Harbinger as well.

 

And that's just intraclass balance. When compared against other classes, it's actually in a worse state than power revenant, and that's hard to beat.

 

Nightfall is ineffective as a boon corruptions compared to feast of corruption. For one, much longer cd, and the ability is used rotationally in a longer loop. It's a far inferior tool for boon strip.

Have to admit the fact scourge is the higher DPS while it's susposed to be a hybrid support/DPS is quite a weird place to be 😂

It's a shame considering reaper is a specc which is appreciated alot by many. 

I think grouch said they are intending to do a balance wave on current elites / core speccs upon EoD or after EoDs release. 

Hopefully speccs like reaper will be getting seen to as the 38-40k DPS era seems to be becoming more and more of the marker. Reaper remaining at 34k will likely become a problem at this point. 

Also a fix to what they did with Condi as Condi burst is starting to just be outright stronger espically in fractals. 

[Kain Francois.4328]

Eh... I think Reaper is fine.

Instead, I'd like to see more trait variety for power Necro. Like adding more damage multipliers to Death Magic.

Being able to raise a minion armor while dealing good DPS should be a Reaper thing.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Kain Francois.4328