Post Elite Specialization Beta 4 Preview Poll And General Feelings [100+ Votes Thus Far] [POLL RE-OPENED]

[AikijinX.6258]

Now that the 4th Beta Elite Specialization Preview has officially ended I thought it was only natural to do a post elite spec beta 4 preview poll.

And just as some conversation starters if you’d like to expand on your feelings, which Spec or Spec(s) felt really good to play in your opinion?

What are your general thoughts on these Specs and what EoD has to offer?

I hope this is helpful for Anet and their Data accumulation and thank you to all who vote or participated 🙂

Poll Reopened!

Edited December 18, 2021 by AikijinX.6258

[Iavra.8510]

Feels like a trick question. Virtuoso did not take a hit/nerf during this beta, because the spec is still just as bad as it was before.

[Vidit.7108]

@Iavra.8510
The poll isn't asking for which is overall the best/worst spec.

[Avatara.1042]

I have zero confidence in anet's balance team fixing the Catalyst's horrible feeling, frantic rotation, and impossibility of use outside of raids and dungeon bosses.

[Vayne.8563]

I don't love the design of the post to begin with but stuff like I'm confident Anet will listen to the playerbase thoroughly is a terrible question. For one thing. it doesn't have any way to prove it moving forward anyway.  The playerbase has never spoken with one mind and listening thoroughly doesn't mean it will obey or make changes on that feedback because some of that feedback would be wrong.

I remember quite a lot of negative feedback about mounts before mounts were in the game. There's been plenty of negative feedback about raids, but Anet put raids in the game anyway.  In both cases the community is split. So if Anet did listen thoroughly, what is supposed to be my takeaway from that.

The expectation of people thinking Anet will do what they want done is one of the biggest problems with game development today. Everyone is an armchair developer but most people have never made a game.

[Zinerith.5203]

This poll is missing a "undecided" option for questions 1 and 2, forcing people to pick randomly if they are unsure about one or the other but still wish to contribute to the rest. 

[AikijinX.6258]

6 hours ago, Zinerith.5203 said:

This poll is missing a "undecided" option for questions 1 and 2, forcing people to pick randomly if they are unsure about one or the other but still wish to contribute to the rest. 

I have taken your qualm into consideration and added an ‘undecided’ option for 1 & 2. 

[Buran.3796]

   I played mostly the heavy armor classes.

   The Bladesworn is the one I enjoyed the most: I like the overall design, visuals and skills, albeit the new weapon (off hand pistil) is a crapy one. The new F mechanics and Gunsaber are cool, and albeit the changes in the 4th beta reduced the damage the specs seems more open to be used with a variety of weapons. Is my fav new spec of the batch.

   The Willbender feels redundant: is not better at dealing damage than a Firebrand or DH (PvE) and is worse at giving support or having sustain (specially in PvP) compoared to core or DH. Won't use the WB at any game mode. Albeit the flow of the skills was improved reducing the casting times or post-cast animations the nerfs to resolution made it worse. 

    At the second beta I though I would hate the Vidicator, but the third evade at regular cost (50 endurance) and with heals and barrier gave him potential as a solid bruiser. Now with 100 endurance cost all across the traits for the single, non stackable dodge (which means 1/4 of a dodge compared to other classes) is a giant pile of garbage in PvP/WvW. Doesn't compete vs Renegade at PvE, so I have no use for it.

   So overall I'll play Bladesworn in EoD, and I'll keep Herald/Renegade and DH/Firebrand as the main choices for PvP/WvW/PvE. Specter and Mechanist seems good but I'm bad at playing Thieves/ERngineers, and Untamed is interestong but I like the Soulbeast more.

[Infusion.7149]

Nerfed :

• Harbinger was nerfed the most. In PVE nearly a loss of 9K DPS occurred. The passive life force to healing sustain was removed  as well in competitive modes and the mobility was hit as well , so every metric was reduced. Elixirs were given blight bonuses but they are largely inconsequential regardless of game mode. Mobility ought to be restored to the spec I think , "high risk high reward" idealogy isn't realized in this beta.
• Specter only had a nerf to the Consume Shadows "gimmick" , the damage actually increased for solo scenarios due to staying in shadow shroud longer. The core of the class is intact regardless of mode. Endless night change was actually inconsequential as nobody was going to use it as the sole quickness support in instanced PVE.
• Virtuoso's damage was nerfed somewhat for not much reason in PVE. In competitive modes it's still bleak due to the projectile nature of bladesongs , the molasses level movement of Unstable Bladestorm, and how the traits don't provide anything defensively without some caveat attached (such as aegis after using a bladesong). Unblockable after dodging/evading/blocking is a novelty in practice because if you use a block for example and it doesn't actually block something you don't get the unblockable status on bladesongs.
• Mechanist's mech was nerfed a bit in PVE (<1K total for build) overall. However condi mech still does nearly 40K (now with only 3 kits instead of 4) so it isn't as bad as it seems , in the logs it was 7K from the mech alone. In competitive modes overclock signet lost its activation time so it was a step in the right direction ; shift signet may end up a bit overloaded though. There still seems to be too much emphasis on confusion as a condition when the spec has no confusion duration or damage mods. It wasn't slated to be strong in competitive modes because if the mech is too strong it is oppressive but if the mech is weak you end up being a worse core engi with a borderline useless traitline.

Who gained the most?

• Vindicator improved the most unexpectedly. It went from unusable ~30K DPS to ~37K DPS and being able to always have offensive mobility skills on pDPS is crucial. Eternity's Requiem damage improved due to reduction in cast time and lower RNG. Urn still needs to be fixed among other things however.
• Catalyst gained DPS but the DPS wasn't the sole issue in the last beta. At least jade sphere was improved to be usable. Whirling Stones became usable on power builds due to a steep reduction in cast time and addition of a projectile block. If they can normalize the hitbox damage or remove hammer orb power damage (making it a defensive mechanic) , reduce ability to just run away from hammer (maybe cripple on earth hammer 3 orbs instead of bleed), and improve hammer viability in competitive modes it would go a long way.
• Willbender's condi spec actually is a new thing in this beta ; it has seen decent damage output in PVE at least. I'm not sure it's going to pan out in PVP/WVW but the annoying aftercasts were taken away.
• Untamed was improved significantly (pet control, Vow of the Untamed, unleashed ambuses, etc) but the damage is still going to fall short of soulbeast ; in WVW the lack of ability to reveal or stow pet in combat is still a problem as well as pet survivability. It has a positive outlook if they can address some more of the major problems with it.
• Bladesworn was nerfed in terms of DPS but improved somewhat in terms of usability in competitive modes due to halving the charge time of Dragon Trigger. It still has a negative outlook due to its core design and the damage output leaves a lot to be desired for the drawback in competitive modes.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Infusion.7149
fix grammar

[frareanselm.1925]

I felt Catalyst specially winning in the last beta, its DPS improved a lot but carries the same problem like old elementalist specs: you have to fill in the gaps using summoned hammer and greatsword in the rotation and this clunkyness is a big turnoff for me.

Also felt harbinger very nerfed in comparison with the last time.

[Tseison.4659]

Generally feel the expansion isn't ready and wouldn't mind an extra month or two delay for them to look at the elites again. Everything feels very rushed, uninspired and February Is around the corner and I'm sure they have a lot to do. Keep in mind they'll be off on the holidays and also with this new covid variant out there, who knows if they'll be set back.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Cash grab low effort specs. It's obvious they were rushed and had no thought behind them. 

[Caid.4932]

You’re Not Confident Anet Will Get These Elite Specs Balanced And Universally In A Good Spot By Release -

Think some will be. But between pets probably needing more work and UI work for Specter i expect them 3 will take a while beyond release to get right.

Its hard to imagine them going from the current Catalyst and Virtuoso to something balanced and a in a good spot immediately either. Vindicator should be and Willbender might be. Harbinger probably has all the pieces it needs to be good between the 2 betas.

[Dadnir.5038]

Difficult to really give an answer to the poll as there are many layers on which one can comment. If I take catalyst as an example:

- Number wise: big improvement.

- QoL wise: some improvement but not nearly enough.

- Design wise: still awful.

In general, people that focus on "number" should be pretty pleased with what they did as they globally balanced "number" output. People that focus on QoL (Yes, there are not many but there are some) will be happy for some e-spec and unhappy for others. As for people that care about design... Well... Like always, the devs sticked to their things whether it's good or not (which is extremly disappointing).

[BobbyT.7192]

On 12/6/2021 at 3:26 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

Specter only had a nerf to the Consume Shadows "gimmick" , the damage actually increased for solo scenarios due to staying in shadow shroud longer. The core of the class is intact regardless of mode. Endless night change was actually inconsequential as nobody was going to use it as the sole quickness support in instanced PVE.

Beta 3 spectres were actually able to supply quickness to their sub squad pretty decently, but loosing quickness is not as bad as loosing the 3 ally target. As the skill also supplied barrier, and barrier supplied rot wallow venom to those allies. The change resulted in a big dps lost for spectre, I would be willing to trade quickness solely for a 3 ally barrier generator. Better yet, replace quickness with fury.

Shroud skills are way to slow to be competitive, there is a reason spectres didn't stay in shroud too long. Sure the heal way strong, but being in shroud  wasn't worth it.

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, BobbyT.7192 said:

Beta 3 spectres were actually able to supply quickness to their sub squad pretty decently, but loosing quickness is not as bad as loosing the 3 ally target. As the skill also supplied barrier, and barrier supplied rot wallow venom to those allies. The change resulted in a big dps lost for spectre, I would be willing to trade quickness solely for a 3 ally barrier generator. Better yet, replace quickness with fury.

Shroud skills are way to slow to be competitive, there is a reason spectres didn't stay in shroud too long. Sure the heal way strong, but being in shroud  wasn't worth it.

It was actually a net loss of ~1K DPS for the Scepter+Dagger variant because you stay in shroud longer.
33.8K solo as of last patch ; a user also had 34.3K solo and 43.3K group (with allies).

Harbinger suffered far more than specter , it was nerfed in every way. Bladesworn might have suffered loss of sustained PVE DPS to the tune of something akin to 14K DPS in PVE , but in competitive modes it was buffed due to lower charge time and realistically it wasn't going to stay 50K+ in PVE with 400K hits when the average Decapitate was ~30K.

Are you going off feelings? Realistically nobody was going to run specters explicitly for quickness because it is way more cumbersome than cQB/quick scrapper / StM chrono and now also quickness catalyst after the change to jade sphere.

[Puck.3697]

Largest improvement i felt - Vindicator.

Speccs heading in the Right direction, Untamed, Willbender, Bladesworn, Cataylst

Speccs that are suffering Virtuoso and Harbinger

I didnt try Spectre, Machinist

I think harbinger is in a Pretty kitten bad place this time round, the nerfs were too much realistically and likely if this is the "New design" they want for it.. the specc needs some serious adjustments. and i feel virtuoso just didnt really get much better at all.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Vidit.7108]

On 12/6/2021 at 11:26 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

Endless night change was actually inconsequential as nobody was going to use it as the sole quickness support in instanced PVE.

Endless night's three person barrier application was a much more important usage of the skill for support than the quickness. Especially because barrier application is what spreads rot wallow venom, that unique damage buff is one of the few things the Specter offered over other support builds and the Endless Night change cost it by far its largest source. 

If you were trying to build a support healer or pepper in serious healing to the condi build, Consume Shadows was not a "gimmick".

[Infusion.7149]

9 hours ago, Vidit.7108 said:

Endless night's three person barrier application was a much more important usage of the skill for support than the quickness. Especially because barrier application is what spreads rot wallow venom, that unique damage buff is one of the few things the Specter offered over other support builds and the Endless Night change cost it by far its largest source. 

If you were trying to build a support healer or pepper in serious healing to the condi build, Consume Shadows was not a "gimmick".

Honestly do you think they were going to keep a 51K+ build that also puts out quickness and barriers?

Waiting for the catalyst on launch , people will be up in arms "it's no longer 50K+" either. Realistic expectations would be a start.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Honestly do you think they were going to keep a 51K+ build that also puts out quickness and barriers?

Waiting for the catalyst on launch , people will be up in arms "it's no longer 50K+" either. Realistic expectations would be a start.

sadly this is how betaing works people have this idea Nothings gonna get nerfed ever and its all gonna stay as it is...

The likelyhood the Elites that come out OP arent the ones we saw doing massive things in the beta, these 2 months of balancing wont be retested prior the Launch.. outliers caught now will already be toned down and retested.. and the stuff in the second beta will get nerfed and not retested

its actually going to likely be one hte weaker Elites that'll get buffed on its down points prior the launch thats going to prolly come out in a "overpowered" State on launch realistically.

harbinger got dumpstered for doing 45k DPS 😛 Catalyst wont survive in the same state to launch

Edited December 10, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Vidit.7108]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Honestly do you think they were going to keep a 51K+ build that also puts out quickness and barriers?

Waiting for the catalyst on launch , people will be up in arms "it's no longer 50K+" either. Realistic expectations would be a start.

That's changing the subject. The Endless Night nerf was a big change for more than just quickness. 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

pve and pvp/ wvw players voting in the same poll doesn't feel right, but what ya gonna do

[Infusion.7149]

6 hours ago, Vidit.7108 said:

That's changing the subject. The Endless Night nerf was a big change for more than just quickness. 

I'm sure "thief mains" are going to spam confused as usual but here's the answer to that. Arenanet's goal was a single target support even if people are going to constantly make threads about "GW2 isn't designed for single target". Some janky interaction of the beam on Endless Night was not in their vision so they changed it , in fact you will note many people hinted the Rot Wallow Venom stacking per use and without ICD was a possible unintended interaction. It just so happened that it also did broken levels of damage while supporting. Specs like Bladesworn "just DPS" so the likelihood of their making it past 40K+ are far higher.

Nobody is going to be looking for "barrier specter" just like nobody looks for "barrier scourge", probably alac specter in 5 man or DPS specter. That's just the reality of it.  The barrier is a side bonus, it isn't the point of the spec in PVE.  The barrier was completely untouched on Endless Night , Twilight Combo actually puts out stronger burst barrier in terms of time (2.5K rather in 0.5s than 600ish per pulse) without having to port around into mechanics and for 4 initiative rather than 6.

P.S. Twilight Combo has over double the heal scaling (0.5 vs 0.22) on barrier compared to Endless Night.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Vidit.7108]

@Infusion.7149Arena net showcased on stream Endless Night hitting three targets. CMC spent time purposefully showing that the beam could hit up to three players. They talked about not leaving the spec completely without aoe healing. There are in fact many trait and skill interactions for the purpose of group healing. The healing power scaling is just really bad on them. Rot Wallow venom will still stack onto one person 7 times that didn't change.

People do look for heal scourge in strikes and I don't expect that to change. Twilight combo is not putting barrier out on three people, they behave similarly now when they didn't really before.

The changes made  to Endless Night were significant for support/healer Specter whether you think that it worked as intended before or not.

[Infusion.7149]

10 minutes ago, Vidit.7108 said:

@Infusion.7149Arena net showcased on stream Endless Night hitting three targets. CMC spent time purposefully showing that the beam could hit up to three players. They talked about not leaving the spec completely without aoe healing. There are in fact many trait and skill interactions for the purpose of group healing. The healing power scaling is just really bad on them. Rot Wallow venom will still stack onto one person 7 times that didn't change.

People do look for heal scourge in strikes and I don't expect that to change. Twilight combo is not putting barrier out on three people, they behave similarly now when they didn't really before.

The changes made  to Endless Night were significant for support/healer Specter whether you think that it worked as intended before or not.

Heal scourge is usually overkill especially now that might generation has been gutted, you can get away with running plaguedoctor scourge or just blood magic, just like if you don't have a high healing demand you can run cele/seraph FB.

With the atrocious heal scaling (worse than enegade soulcleave summit or the alliance stance on vindicator) I can't believe you are suggesting it is even remotely worth it to run heal specter as opposed to a hybrid that switches to a partial support role. In situations where you have a tank, single target support works.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Infusion.7149