Core is never going to be viable in competitive is it?

[coro.3176]

I remember harping on about this years ago - coming back to the game, it seems not much has changed.

The main problem just hasn't been addressed and looks like the next elite spec is going to continue the pattern. Namely, the elite specs add huge amounts of power and take practically nothing away.

• Scrapper actually could be balanced in principle. It doesn't gain any extra skills on top of core. It trades its last toolbelt skill for a different one. It just so happens that what it gains is really really good - better than what you can get with core.
• Holo, by contrast, gets a huge amount of damage, CC, and sustain with its forge "kit" and gives up only a single toolbelt skill.
• Mechanist looks to be in the same vein. At first glance, it looks like it gives up more, trading all its toolbelt skills for a pet, but then the pet has abilities too and calling the pet is a skill in itself, so it gets them back.

Obviously the new expansion hasn't been released yet, so it's hard to say how effective it will be, but I predict Mechanist will be strong, as it's gaining passive damage and split-attention from a pet, and still gets to keep its toolbelt skills in the form of the mech's abilities.

 

There are a few ways I could see core being balanced:

1. Insane 3-traitline synergy with the core lines. This seems tricky to pull off. It would have to be a synergy so good that it competes with having a pet, or a really good kit, or all the scrapper ridiculousness, but also require 3 traitlines and only work if you have all 3. Otherwise the elite specs will just choose 2 of the 3 and gain the benefits of their spec along with most of the benefits of the synergy.
2. Insane buffs to the last toolbelt skill. This is the only skill that core gets that all the elites specs don't. It would have to be a huge amount of power to compete with a pet, or forge, or even function gyro (I've been critting gyro for like 4k). That's a lot to put into one skill. I don't see it happening.

 

But anyway .. All of this has been said before. I just hoped that in what .. 2 years, something would have been done. I should have known better.

[Infusion.7149]

Probably 1. pick up and move turrets , makes supply drop elite a lot better
2. tool-kit buffs so you can repair turrets, since realistically nobody uses it
3.  Orbital strike cooldown dropped
4. Maybe bunker down improvement if it's on core engi , which buffs both DPS/sustain

Condi engi is playable just extremely user un-friendly.

Then again short of core warrior and core guard nothing is really that strong on core class. This is extremely low priority for Arenanet since all paying customers have expansions.

[coro.3176]

4 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Condi engi is playable just extremely user un-friendly.

 

I mean, playable is a matter of opinion. It is much much worse than any power option. Blowtorch misses all the time and is on a ridiculous cooldown. Grenade / shrapnel condi procs are straight up worse than just speccing power and having the initial hit do more damage. If by some miracle the condi all manages to tick for its full duration, you were STILL better off hitting the same number of skills with power and killing in a fraction of the time.

I would agree that it's playable in WvW, where you can get some tankiness to go with your condi, or run cele, but in PvP it's a liability because it can't touch any build with cleanse, takes longer to kill than power, and is generally taking huge risks for no benefit.

It also is missing a lot of the sustain that power builds get.

Edited December 21, 2021 by coro.3176

[ThrakathNar.4537]

Personally, I don't actually think it's that hard to bring core engi up to a decent level. The main issue with engineer is the fact that very few of the core traitlines (pretty much just Alchemy and Explosives, and Inventions if and only if you run very specific traits) are actually that strong, so 9 times out of 10, taking an elite spec as your third traitline is just so much better. It also doesn't help that ~50% of all core utilities are pretty bad. Making core traitlines viable over elite specs isn't just about giving them multiple three way synergies - it's about making the traitlines themselves actually good.

 

For the example of the class where this is best demonstrated - look at ranger. Even without the hard tradeoffs of the elite specs, sacrificing any one of the three traitlines in the valk ranger build is a massive loss to some aspect of your build. Replacing Marksmanship not only greatly reduces your damage, but forces you to take a precision amulet instead of valkyrie, reducing your sustain. Dropping Wilderness Survival greatly reduces your sustain power (regen, protection, and condi cleanse) as well as reducing your procs of Remorseless in Marksmanship. Losing Beastmastery greatly impacts your pet's survivability and damage, and also gives you less damage and movement with no superspeed and a damage reduction on greatsword. The other power focused build on ranger (Sic 'em Soulbeast) Chooses to drop Marksmanship for Soulbeast, but in doing so takes Berserker amulet, and has greatly reduced sustain and passive damage, playing a more bursty playstyle.

 

It's worth noting though that from an abstract, in principle point of view, none of the elite specs are impossible to balance against core. Scrapper replaces one skill with another, Mechanist is severely hampered by the fact that it relys on AI, and Holosmith, while it seems like it does more, is very situational with its modifiers, becoming stronger than core while in forge, but weaker than core while out of forge, leaving that as the more bursty playstyle while core has more sustained damage over time. Part of the issue why this is not the case in practice though is the aforementioned distribution of power, where the elite traitlines just have better designed traits than a lot of core ones.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Core engi have 5 traitlines:

Firearms-> dps (power/condi)

Explosives-> dps (power)

Inventions->support (boons/utylitis)

Alchemy -> support (boons/utylitis)

Tools -> Mobility

The only problem is with Tools traitline in my opinion

most core engi skills are condi based so condi traitline culd be much better then mobility one, i wuld suggest to rework tools traitline to full condi one

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[coro.3176]

15 hours ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

Personally, I don't actually think it's that hard to bring core engi up to a decent level. The main issue with engineer is the fact that very few of the core traitlines (pretty much just Alchemy and Explosives, and Inventions if and only if you run very specific traits) are actually that strong, so 9 times out of 10, taking an elite spec as your third traitline is just so much better. It also doesn't help that ~50% of all core utilities are pretty bad. Making core traitlines viable over elite specs isn't just about giving them multiple three way synergies - it's about making the traitlines themselves actually good.

Yeah I think you're on to something here. It's curious that the core traitlines took nerfs during the competitive split a few years ago. I'm trying to imagine just how good a traitline would have to be to compete with the additional power afforded by the elite specs right now.

Like, what kind of buffs would you give to Tools to make it as good as everything Scrapper offers. It would have to have great sustain, damage, and utility, and right now it has like okay utility and a barely noticeable damage buff.

But it's not just Tools. Even the "good" traitlines like Alchemy would need buffs to bring them up to Elite levels.

Edited December 21, 2021 by coro.3176

[insanemaniac.2456]

this was a promise broken with HoT...

[Koensol.5860]

On 12/20/2021 at 9:42 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

Probably 1. pick up and move turrets , makes supply drop elite a lot better
2. tool-kit buffs so you can repair turrets, since realistically nobody uses it
3.  Orbital strike cooldown dropped
4. Maybe bunker down improvement if it's on core engi , which buffs both DPS/sustain

Condi engi is playable just extremely user un-friendly.

Then again short of core warrior and core guard nothing is really that strong on core class. This is extremely low priority for Arenanet since all paying customers have expansions.

I disagree on core condi being better than power. Both can be playable, but require a lot of work to pull off. In my opinion core power is better because you have more mobility from the rifle. On condi you usuallyjust get run over with chill spam and die unless you have pitch perfect positioning. It also just takes too long to kill people on condi, as most skills are too slow or take too much time to ramp upin dmg. With power you can burst people down in seconds if you line it up well. I've been using this core power build in ranked and it actually works decently: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PeQAQlNw+YXMPmKO8TZrTA-zZILjGLgMTAZHA

[ThrakathNar.4537]

9 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

Yeah I think you're on to something here. It's curious that the core traitlines took nerfs during the competitive split a few years ago. I'm trying to imagine just how good a traitline would have to be to compete with the additional power afforded by the elite specs right now.

Like, what kind of buffs would you give to Tools to make it as good as everything Scrapper offers. It would have to have great sustain, damage, and utility, and right now it has like okay utility and a barely noticeable damage buff.

But it's not just Tools. Even the "good" traitlines like Alchemy would need buffs to bring them up to Elite levels.

If I had full creative control over traitline balance, and wasn't limited by anything, these would be my changes to Tools:

 

Overall, Tools suffers from the fact that a lot of the traits are Purity of Purpose'd, and only do one thing. While this isn't a problem if the rest of the game was like this, the fact is that most traits on most classes have two or three distinct effects, and Tools has fallen behind in this regard. It also has a wide number of traits that proc only on long intervals, which isn't necessarily weak, but it doesn't add much to your playstyle.

 

I like what the minor traits in Tools all do, these ones I think should just be targeted for additions. Excessive Energy needs to be all damage, not just strike damage, and it could perhaps also give increased condi duration while affected by vigor. Optimised Activation could give a longer duration (3 seconds up from 2).

 

What would make Tools more interesting is if all the traits in the first column did something that procced on toolbelt use. Delete Reactive Lenses and Takedown Round, and move Power Wrench to where Takedown Round currently is, and then use the two free adept minor traits for traits like static discharge. One of them could be AoE endurance and some barrier, and the other could be some sort of condi projectile.

 

Looking now at the new Master column, Streamlined Kits needs to get its affects buffed or the interval reduced, before anything else. These traits could all interact with vigor, in order to make it more interesting. Streamlined Kits could give you bonus condi damage with vigor, Lock On could give you bonus crit chance with vigor, and Power Wrench could give you incoming damage reduction with vigor. I am wary of creating an EoD traitline here, where you have your prescribed power, condi, and support traitlines, so if that ends up being the case then these auxillary effects can be made more utility-oriented (make Streamlined Kits vigor do movement speed or something).

 

With the Grandmasters, Gadgeteer is fine, Adrenal Implant needs some secondary effect (something related to dodging, like healing yourself for each point of endurance spent), and Kinetic Battery needs to be able to be used much more frequently and controllably (3 down from 5 charges).

 

These are the first steps that I would take, if nothing else, to make Tools much more of an interesting traitline to take. This is sort of a side-note, but I hate how most balance since 2019 has just been about nerfing, never getting any new tools (haha) to play with. Perfect balance is hard to achieve, but by giving people fun new ways to theory-craft, it does make the game more fun to play, which is ultimately what matters the most.

 

 

 

[Kuma.1503]

Funny enough, there are people complaining about being one shot by toolkit autos in the PvP forums as we speak. 

[Matoro.9708]

15 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Funny enough, there are people complaining about being one shot by toolkit autos in the PvP forums as we speak. 

Fortunately there is an easy counterplay, it involves simply pressing A, W, S, or D

[Loboling.5293]

21 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Funny enough, there are people complaining about being one shot by toolkit autos in the PvP forums as we speak. 

I'm pretty sure those are just trolling. Then again, it's almost 2022, and we may have entered the twilight zone. 😜

[Shroud.2307]

I have been of the opinion for a long time now that each Grand Master Trait needs an additional effect or just to be flat out better when used with core.

Like for example,
Iron Blooded: Reduce physical and Condition damage for each Boon you have by 3% (up from 2%)
Adrenal Implant: Endurance regeneration is increased. Also gain health for each tick of Endurance.

Something to that effect.

I also think F5's should all get some slight changes.
Toss Elixir X should increase in duration for every target it hits (eg. 1 target = 3 seconds, 6 targets = 6 seconds).
Orbital Strike should be an unblockable knockdown.
Med Pack Drop is actually fine, but a slightly reduced cooldown would be nice. Much of a change to this skill would probably make it OP.

[Kuma.1503]

Update, they're complaining about Grenades and Mortar now. 

 

Core Engi op.  You heard it here first. 

[UNOwen.7132]

40 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Update, they're complaining about Grenades and Mortar now. 

 

Core Engi op.  You heard it here first. 

Again? Those just got nerfed, and they werent the issue to begin with. 

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Again? Those just got nerfed, and they werent the issue to begin with. 

*Shrug* No mattar how many times we tell them Holo is the problem, they never listen. 

[Vagrant.7206]

On 12/20/2021 at 4:45 PM, coro.3176 said:

 

I mean, playable is a matter of opinion. It is much much worse than any power option. Blowtorch misses all the time and is on a ridiculous cooldown. Grenade / shrapnel condi procs are straight up worse than just speccing power and having the initial hit do more damage. If by some miracle the condi all manages to tick for its full duration, you were STILL better off hitting the same number of skills with power and killing in a fraction of the time.

I would agree that it's playable in WvW, where you can get some tankiness to go with your condi, or run cele, but in PvP it's a liability because it can't touch any build with cleanse, takes longer to kill than power, and is generally taking huge risks for no benefit.

It also is missing a lot of the sustain that power builds get.

Having played condi engi for years (can't now, gives me finger cramps at this point), I can tell you that it's one of the hardiest builds in PvE. I have lasted longer on it than any other build, because it's FANTASTIC at kiting mobs and self-healing. It's a selfish build at its essence, and kiting mobs makes it ridiculously tanky. Glue shot, glue bomb, smoke bomb, ice mortar, flashbang mortar, and frost grenades mean enemies basically can never reach you or hit you if you have enough space to move.

It's just extremely user-unfriendly as pointed out by Infusion.

I agree with @ThrakathNar.4537 when the problem is the core trait lines. Most of the core traits are extremely weak or too situational. The elite spec trait lines are generally well-designed and cohesive, whereas the core trait lines have a bunch of random stuff thrown at the wall that doesn't make much sense. 

In vanilla GW2, when you could select any traits you wanted out of the list (provided you met minimum requirements), core engineer was significantly more powerful as you could pick traits that made a cohesive whole (notice that certain tiers of the core trait lines are more powerful?). But when they did the update to traits before HoT, we got railroaded into specific trait setups that they never revisited.

There are also plenty of core skills that need revisiting, but the traits make a HUGE impact.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Vagrant.7206

[Alcatraznc.3869]

I believe most branch are fine (aka Explosive, Fire Arms and Alchemy) however what could receive some buff is definitely the tool branch and arguably the invention branch.

 

I will not talk much about the invention branch, I used to run it mainly for the 25% movement and it is pretty good at giving sustain and a bit of healing overall so it's ok. However most of the tool trait are really underwhelming :

 

Spoiler

-The minor trait buffs your character when under vigor which isnt bad, why not...

 

-The electric arc coming out from the toolbelt is a good addition to the DPS however it feels like it got nerfed and is no longer what it used to be. A shame really. Would definitely buff the base damage.

 

-The free breakstun you get is nice but the goggles tool in itself is really underwhelming. It was already underwhelming when it used to prevent you from getting blind for a few second on top of giving you fury but now, it is straight up.....bleh. Needs some buff

 

-The reload buff for the Toolkit + the -3/1 sec CD on your ult/dodge is correct I suppose. I would take it if I run toolkit. But I dont run toolkit, or rather I havent found yet a good utility for that kit outside of core engi.

 

-The speed buff + aura when using a kit used to be a good skill and a great source of speed for engi, however these days I dont find much use for that. With how the game changed, I feel like this trait has been powercreep, kinda.

 

-Revealing stealth opponent when doing a blind hit is a nice trait. It's usually my default skill if I run the toolbranch. Nice for PVP/WvW. 

 

-Dropping a bomb at your opponent's feet when  its HP is below 25%  is nice....if it wasnt for the fact that the bomb takes ages to explode. In PVE it can works but in PVP/WvW it is useless. Underwhelming trait.

 

-The kinetic charge....or whatever it is underwhelming. It is supposed to encourage you spaming your toolbelt skill to get rewarded but the reward is pretty underwhelming. I mean superspeed and celerity isnt bad but it's only a few seconds after you used 5 toolbelt skill if I remember correctly. Mediocre.

 

-50% stamina regen. On paper if you combine it with vigor it sounds nice. In practice it is underwhelming.

 

-Improvement of the tools + 20% faster CD on tool skill is pretty much the only reason I would use that branch. This skill is the only relevant tool trait in the entire tool branch. 

 

 

 

While the tool branch is underwhelming, I also think most tool are also pretty underwhelming :

 

Spoiler

-The tool heal is pretty good. I dont think that one is an issue. Also the CC on the toolbelt is good but I think a small range buff wouldnt be bad.

 

-The mine is a decent. Good damage, fast CD, remove a boon and a pushback. The toolbelt skill also gives some nice damage as well as more boon removal. Overall it's solid.

 

-The goggles needs some buff or rework. The CD is too long for what it does and....well it doesnt do much really. It is a very poor breakstun. I will not comment on the toolbelt skill because I dont remember what it does now. I know it used to reveal a target while applying vulnerability but I dont know if it remains the same. Anyway the skill is underwhelming

 

-The personnal ram...To be honest I've never really used that skill. I remember the range on the main skill was pretty poor and you have to breath at his face to use it. The toolbelt had more range but it was a small stun. I guess it can work if you really need some CC since it reduces the breakbar by a lot but I'm not convinced. Maybe someday I'll give it another chance when they'll buff the range. Meh skill

 

-The rocket boot remains a strong mobility skill for both PVP and WvW. Decent CD, good jump distance, blast finisher and the toolbelt skill is an ok burning stack. Strong mobility skill and arguably the best tool skill available.

 

-The oil shoes  offer a good CC but the oil duration is low and the CD is high. The only reason why you would pick that skill is because the toolbelt provides a breakstun with superspeed with a decent CD. Mediocre main skill, good toolbelt skill. 

 

 

Tools in 2022 feels like a relica from the past for most of them. But yeah if we had more relevant tool and an actually good tool branch, I think core engi could be competitive.

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Alcatraznc.3869

[Stx.4857]

I wish tools had a little more oomph on its majors.  I like making niche builds with it for open world, I think one of my favorite builds combines inventions and tools for Boons on Turrets, with permanent supply drop Turrets thanks to 3 seconds off elite cooldown on dodge + perma vigor and 50% endurance gen from tools.  I'm a sucker for Turrets and Core builds.

 

But tools tree needs something more because right now it's just kind of a hybrid damage and defense line but not a whole lot if either.  There is some really fun concepts in there like the zap on toolbelt skill usage and cooldown reduction on elite skills...   part of the problem is that gadgets overall kind of suck, even with gadgeteer trait, and the toolkit is very underwhelming in pve.

[shion.2084]

Tools best effects are the passive things it gives ironically.  10% damage and reduced tool belt cooldown and some regen.

[coro.3176]

14 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

Tools best effects are the passive things it gives ironically.  10% damage and reduced tool belt cooldown and some regen.

And that's good, but it doesn't compare to 15% of outgoing damage as barrier, or the might/stab/superspeed effects on scrapper.

It doesn't compare to having the best kit in the game along with tons of sustain, mobility, and CC for free on holo. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by coro.3176

[shion.2084]

2 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

And that's good, but it doesn't compare to 15% of outgoing damage as barrier, or the might/stab/superspeed effects on scrapper.

It doesn't compare to having the best kit in the game along with tons of sustain, mobility, and CC for free on holo. 

 

2 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

And that's good, but it doesn't compare to 15% of outgoing damage as barrier, or the might/stab/superspeed effects on scrapper.

It doesn't compare to having the best kit in the game along with tons of sustain, mobility, and CC for free on holo. 

  
 

yup I play scrapper.  Every once in a while I try alchemy and tools with elix u, and elix gun and the health elixir….. but I need the health from explosives so it wins out.   I was simply commenting what the most useful part of tools was for my builds.

 

my scrapper builds are firearms and alchemy for FT or alchemy and explosives for nades.  I’d love to work tools in for its passives but never can justify

[shion.2084]

The only builds I seriously see use tools are things like that alien fellow who uses scrapper and toolkit (which can have an insane amount of damage).  And never underestimate that dude.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, shion.2084 said:

 

  
 

yup I play scrapper.  Every once in a while I try alchemy and tools with elix u, and elix gun and the health elixir….. but I need the health from explosives so it wins out.   I was simply commenting what the most useful part of tools was for my builds.

 

my scrapper builds are firearms and alchemy for FT or alchemy and explosives for nades.  I’d love to work tools in for its passives but never can justify

Well, isnt it balance? You sacrifice something to gain something else. 

I still run my core condi engineer in WvW with firearms/alchemy/tools. The shorter cd on toolbelt just means more moa.

Hell I even started running core ranger instead of meta soulbeast.

Stupid trait trees.

[Orack.4825]

TBH I feel like many skill, kit, tool need an update. All feel pretty weak and outdated to me.

They're not unplayable, but pretty meh tbh.