I dont understand the fascination with Cantha

[Wintermute.5408]

21 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

I wonder if the OP is/was outraged regarding the Labyrinthine Cliffs? All those bamboo weapons and such. Doesn't seem to fit the 'traditional medieval fantasy society'.  🤷‍♂️

My favorite medieval location in the game is Rata Sum, definitely. Closely followed by Black citadel.

kitten the people complaining about style of the expansion are so far up their kitten...

[Gibson.4036]

I’ve always been put off by how Charr society panders to GW2’s Ancient Roman audience.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Vayne.8563]

I liked the original Cantha. I like the look of this Cantha.  I wouldn't know how I feel about the expansion until I actually play it, but I'm cautiously optimistic. YMMV.  

Edited February 4, 2022 by Vayne.8563

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Harak.8397 said:

That's quite true. We have a tendency to approach "Asia", "Africa" and  "Middle Eastern" like monolithic blocks when depicting them in media ( such as video games ) and GW2 is no exception. There is no love lost in East Asia between China, Vietnam, Cambodia Korea and Japan for instance. Seeing their cultural markers mishmashed  together into "fantasy China" is likely to be more insulting than endearing.

It's likely much easier to borrow aspects of different cultures and splice them together to give an illusion of coherence to the unaware than it is to come up with something truly unique but those who know cannot unsee the mismatched parts in the whole.

And in this context "we" means... "westerners"? You know the same logic applies here, right? It's kind of weird to expect people to keep listing every single country/culture they're talking about, when what they mean is actually a broader area with similar, recognizable general characteristics.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Harak.8397]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Not putting words into your mouth.

Offering contrast to your "we have a tendency to" by showing that the "tendency" is present with pretty much all cultures and races. There is no difference between "let's combine some themes from Africa and call it Istan" and "let's combine some themes from Europe and call it Norn", and there is no need to specifically point out that an implied "we" have this or that tendency which may or may not be racist wink wink nudge nudge.

I see where you're coming from. I wasn't implying racism more a lack of creative courage. They showed some for the Charr and Asura for instance. The former are inspired by an idea: conquest and war the latter by corporate culture. Save for some superficial things like military ranks lifted from the Roman Empire, you can't  point at the Charr and say " those are Mongols/Huns/Romans. The Norn could have just been humans who renounced the six and turned to worship of nature. Hell they could have been Jotun instead of the Jotun. They went with big humans who think and act like humans with a vague spirits worship backdrop... and even their spirits are pretty much humanized. *Shrugs* I don't like the Norn, they are a missed opportunity but that's quite another topic.

[Wintermute.5408]

1 hour ago, Harak.8397 said:

That's quite true. We have a tendency to approach "Asia", "Africa" and  "Middle Eastern" like monolithic blocks when depicting them in media ( such as video games ) and GW2 is no exception. There is no love lost in East Asia between China, Vietnam, Cambodia Korea and Japan for instance. Seeing their cultural markers mishmashed  together into "fantasy China" is likely to be more insulting than endearing.

It's likely much easier to borrow aspects of different cultures and splice them together to give an illusion of coherence to the unaware than it is to come up with something truly unique but those who know cannot unsee the mismatched parts in the whole.

TBH, western culture also isn't monolithic. You'll be hard-pressed to pinpoint the exact nation and culture Kryta is supposed to represent. It's a mish-mash just as Elona is. Which, in context of fantasy games, is good enough IMHO.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

And yet, somehow, through a conscious blindness of the mind, mashing together germanic, nordic, slavic, and celtic ideas into Norn is not at all insulting and entirely endearing. Right?

THIS.  THIS TIMES A MILLION.

Its incredibly hypocritical for those in East Asia to get butt hurt over the blending of their cultures to create a somewhat unique Asian based fantasy culture only for their own game companies to do the same with European cultures for Medieval based fantasy. 

[Klowdy.3126]

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

And yet, somehow, through a conscious blindness of the mind, mashing together germanic, nordic, slavic, and celtic ideas into Norn is not at all insulting and entirely endearing. Right?

To be fair, they did have the same beginnings, with Germanic tribes that spread across the continents, eventually forming those cultures. But I totally get what you're saying. Some of these posters are also making a 1:1 comparison between earth cultures, and those of a video game world on I different planet. Just because it's that way on earth, doesn't mean it would be that way on a different planet, with different people, even if they seem similar. 

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, Klowdy.3126 said:

To be fair, they did have the same beginnings, with Germanic tribes that spread across the continents, eventually forming those cultures

Debatable.

But we all know the different asian cultures appeared on earth much like Mr Bean; fully formed and isolated, without any influence on each other whatsoever.

[draxynnic.3719]

I think the reaction is due to a couple of factors:

One is that when it's a European mashup, it's Europeans (or people of European descent) mashing up themselves. It doesn't come across as cultural appropriation or as foreigners not recognising the distinctions between different cultures when you're making a fantasy version of your own continent.

Another is that the concept of 'generic fantasy medieval kingdom' is fairly well established and European people generally don't complain about it. Sometimes, what's acceptable is what people choose to accept, and just because Westerners are happy to be presented that way doesn't mean that everyone has to be.

I think a big part of it is that while Europeans have their rivalries, there's also a sense of shared heritage and culture. It should be remembered that, due to the tradition of royal intermarriage, most of the European monarchs were related to each other to varying degrees and therefore the big European wars were something akin to family squabbles on a massive scale - even with the royals no longer in charge, there's still an ideal of European unity and the wars and rivalries are disputes over who should be in charge. So few take offense to the fantasy European mashup because that's essentially realising that ideal, without the messiness of nobody wanting to give up their own power to realize that ideal getting in the way.

For East Asia, though, that doesn't seem to be the case. There are certainly cultural commonalities, but they seem to have a stronger tendency to regard rival nations as hostile entities that they don't want to be associated with rather than as cousins that they occasionally have a spat with.

[SunRoamer.5103]

3 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

And yet, somehow, through a conscious blindness of the mind, mashing together germanic, nordic, slavic, and celtic ideas into Norn is not at all insulting and entirely endearing. Right?

 

1 hour ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

THIS.  THIS TIMES A MILLION.

Its incredibly hypocritical for those in East Asia to get butt hurt over the blending of their cultures to create a somewhat unique Asian based fantasy culture only for their own game companies to do the same with European cultures for Medieval based fantasy. 

A lot of times, the people who do get hurt by things like this are people who live in a diaspora, so in a minority in a foreign country where they have to endure a lot of micro-aggressions, blatant racism, fetishization etc. at the hands of the majority in power, meaning white people. They grow up being made fun of for their culture, food, appearance, accent etc. and are treated with little nuance - many times East Asians are automatically assumed to be Chinese, for example (or nowadays possibly Japanese or Korean with the rise of mainstream acceptance of anime and hallyu etc.). Which is why cultural appropriation and the disrespectful mish-mash of various cultures are such a problem, especially for people who are x-generation immigrants. The same outcry is rarely seen in their countries of origin; or if there is a similar upset, the exact reasoning and nuance is still quite different, since the lived experiences of people in their home countries vs. in a diaspora are wildly varied.

Add to that the entire global power dynamics of Europeans sticking their fingers everywhere and ruthlessly pillaging and colonising just about every other part of the planet, which has severe cultural, social, political, economic and ecological repercussions to this day and it becomes understandable why those of European descent should overall be more mindful than the other way around.

That said, I also don't really know who "those" people in East Asia that are supposedly being "hypocritical" and getting "butt hurt" are supposed to be. Sources?

[Blue D Phoenix.7260]

Yeah i understand your pov, so im gonna say it in two different povs, which might be a hard pill to swallow for others.

1. Marketing pov - Top 3 heavily populated countries are China, India and US. Unfortunately India doesn't play mmos as much, they are into mobile games. And to please US audience, they went woke (no offence), like introducing the agender character. And to please the Chinese audience, they are "inspiring" from traditional Chinese culture. Which would give them a bigger user base.
2. Another pov - I always liked all cultures, whatever might be the "deal" with china idc, i like their tradional culture, the house structure, weapons, styles,etc. So maybe they got inspired by asian culture and created new cantha? ( Tho i would prefer Japanese/korean cultures more)

[Klowdy.3126]

1 minute ago, Blue D Phoenix.7260 said:

Yeah i understand your pov, so im gonna say it in two different povs, which might be a hard pill to swallow for others.

1. Marketing pov - Top 3 heavily populated countries are China, India and US. Unfortunately India doesn't play mmos as much, they are into mobile games. And to please US audience, they went woke (no offence), like introducing the agender character. And to please the Chinese audience, they are "inspiring" from traditional Chinese culture. Which would give them a bigger user base.
2. Another pov - I always liked all cultures, whatever might be the "deal" with china idc, i like their tradional culture, the house structure, weapons, styles,etc. So maybe they got inspired by asian culture and created new cantha? ( Tho i would prefer Japanese/korean cultures more)

The thing is, OP never stated what would have been better. Why is it so off the wall to have an "Asian" expansion, when things like Mist of Pandaria, and Stormblood did very well? When things like kung fu movies, and kung fu panda are in pop culture?

 

The questioning of this move seems like OP is drawn far too much to focus on the cultural references, as opposed to seeing the game for what it is. Why does it matter which culture the game samples? Isn't it all just earth stuff anyway? 

[Blue D Phoenix.7260]

14 minutes ago, Klowdy.3126 said:

Why is it so off the wall to have an "Asian" expansion, when things like Mist of Pandaria, and Stormblood did very well? When things like kung fu movies, and kung fu panda are in pop culture?

Why not this and creating from a marketing perspective, why not both? I get the point OPs trying to make, theres nothing wrong with thinking from a marketing(sales) perspective.

They tried to hit two birds with one stone (no offence peta) and they might succeed, you can see cantha is mostly inspired from mainland chinese culture (looking at trailers and chats,might know otherwise when i play).

[voltaicbore.8012]

9 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Its incredibly hypocritical for those in East Asia to get butt hurt over the blending of their cultures to create a somewhat unique Asian based fantasy culture only for their own game companies to do the same with European cultures for Medieval based fantasy. 

No no no, such games are always very careful to include a bikini armor giant-breasted greatsword warrior class genderlocked to females with platinum blonde hair! Clearly they are working with an entirely fictional culture, nothing to see here. /s

On a more serious note, I feel like it's just a function of modern East Asian cultures still being adamant amongst themselves about keeping up high cultural walls. Part of this is totally understandable - China in particular has historically proven to be a very difficult neighbor to live with, and cultural appropriation often foreshadows direct attempts to erode the sovereignty of its neighbors. So while "cultural appropriation" is something of a joke in the West (at least in the US where it often amounts to people getting up in arms about white women rocking hoop earrings, dreadlocks, and perhaps even using ebonics from time to time), Asians have long been conditioned to see any dismissiveness/disrespect of cultural distinction as a precursor to invasion. In a less overtly East Asian context, Russia has historically loved to use the "we need to protect the Russian-speaking minority!" excuse to bully its neighbors too. So it's not an imaginary problem, but a very real historical one.

That said, such a heightened response is hypocritical because of what Grey pointed out - if your own culture is so sensitive to the matter, why do the exact same thing with Western cultures yourselves? It's idiotic, and I hope Western studios/publishers care less and less about it.

Edited February 5, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[Klowdy.3126]

7 hours ago, Blue D Phoenix.7260 said:

Why not this and creating from a marketing perspective, why not both? I get the point OPs trying to make, theres nothing wrong with thinking from a marketing(sales) perspective.

They tried to hit two birds with one stone (no offence peta) and they might succeed, you can see cantha is mostly inspired from mainland chinese culture (looking at trailers and chats,might know otherwise when i play).

The point the OP seems to be making is pandering to china is wrong. My point is that it is marketing, but in the sense that this theme has existed in the genre for a while now, and it's in pop culture. It's not pandering to anyone but people that like the aesthetic/culture of china. Spoiler: it's more than just the chinese. They are doing what will make money. I'm honestly surprised they didn't jump on the bandwagon before PoF, and that Cantha was our second expansion. I'm not saying it isn't inspired by Asian culture. I'm asking why it matters.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

If the OP was 'I AM OUT' when confronted with Mists of Pandaria, he/she is surely afforded the same option here.

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

If the OP was 'I AM OUT' when confronted with Mists of Pandaria, he/she is surely afforded the same option here.

/thread

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

On 2/3/2022 at 9:37 AM, EpicName.4523 said:

You seem to think that I am ignorant enough to confuse China with the entirety of East Asia.  I am not. 

However, I can assure you that given the desire of the vast majority of game developers to ponder to Chinese markets, this is the idea they usually try to present. Cantha is China, not Vietnam or Cambodia or whatever, at the very least given its name, lore and obvious references.

 

You are right the game has guns and snipers and whatnot, but these are not unique to this MMO and I have no problem with them. Other games have done it too and it works. And yes, it makes sense that different cultures are...different. 

 

My fear is that the art, setting, music and everything else, the entirety of the expansion, of the end-game if you want to call it, is based on a culture I personally dislike from purely an aesthetic point of view. I fear that presence will be overwhelming and inescapable. My hope is that if they want to portray China, they just don't overdo it, that's all. 

You are incorrect. Cantha pulls influences from all Asian cultures and not just Chinese. For example the Canthan villain in GW1 was Shiro Tagachi, which is Japanese. In the trailer there is a Gat, which is a traditional Korean hat from the Joseon period. The Shrine Guardians are Kitsune, which is Japanese. Marjory Delacor, who is of Cantha descent has a Katana, which is Japanese. There are many other examples if you look for them. I'd suggest you do your research before ranting, so that you don't appear ignorant. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

I like the fact that OP jumped thread when everyone realized they ain't complaining about Cantha and the fact that OP never played OG Guild Wars kek

[Dentayz.3961]

OP i wanna let you know that this whole EoD theme is more like korea than china, the emperor has typical korean look and hairstyle also the fact is that Ncsoft is a korean company.

 

You can go check posts in chinese gw2 forum, some players in posts there are talking about the whole new kaineng city is just looks like a western korea. so please don't blame it to chinese culture thats really rude and disrespectful. As you can see there are many westerners who love Liyue Harbour (100% real ancient Chinese city in Genshin) in reddit / internet, China or Chinese culture is totally not the issues that you dont like to cause these problems in this expansion.  

Edited February 5, 2022 by Dentayz.3961

[EpicName.4523]

21 hours ago, Toast.6459 said:

Tell me you didn't play the original GW without telling me you didn't play the original GW.

 

Gonna press F to doubt there chief, considering you mentioned it 7 times in your post, I think you might be either lying to us, or to yourself.

You are one of those, eh? I really don't have to justify my likes or dislikes. They are there and that's it. When you try to defend your preferences you are admitting there is something wrong.  

 

20 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Not putting words into your mouth.

Offering contrast to your "we have a tendency to" by showing that the "tendency" is present with pretty much all cultures and races. There is no difference between "let's combine some themes from Africa and call it Istan" and "let's combine some themes from Europe and call it Norn", and there is no need to specifically point out that an implied "we" have this or that tendency which may or may not be racist wink wink nudge nudge.

I beg to differ. You can draw inspiration from something without trying to please a crowd and you can do so in a flattering way to push sales. Look, I will give you an example. Almost every (old) US movie has the typical American Chad hero that is Chuck Norris in disguise. Why? Because the audiences watching this consciously or not want to associate with him. He is "their" guy. Meanwhile, many (old and modern) movies have the Russian bad guy, the drunkard, the terrorist, the evil mastermind, whatever. Do you think someone in Russia would watch that garbage and like it? Some would, if it is well made, but most wouldn't. And that's how it should be because Russians are not the intended audience, westerners are. Same with every type of media.

20 hours ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

I wonder if the OP is/was outraged regarding the Labyrinthine Cliffs? All those bamboo weapons and such. Doesn't seem to fit the 'traditional medieval fantasy society'.  🤷‍♂️

I had to Google that place to remember where it is. Do you have do to the same for an entire expansion? It doesn't bother me when someone adds an odd reference or addition, what bothers me is entire landmass and setting that is ALL about that.

[Luthan.5236]

Personally I like the "traditional" style - the main parts of Kaineng (with stuff made with stones - not the slums :D) and the Shing Jea island.

From what I have heard there are also people that liked the other areas (Echovald Forest and Jade Sea) - personally I do not like them that much. (At least not in GW1.) That island ... really liked the nature and the "calm" setting - monastery and chinese villages and not too fancy.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Sigmoid.7082]

24 minutes ago, EpicName.4523 said:

I beg to differ. You can draw inspiration from something without trying to please a crowd and you can do so in a flattering way to push sales. Look, I will give you an example. Almost every (old) US movie has the typical American Chad hero that is Chuck Norris in disguise. Why? Because the audiences watching this consciously or not want to associate with him. He is "their" guy. Meanwhile, many (old and modern) movies have the Russian bad guy, the drunkard, the terrorist, the evil mastermind, whatever. Do you think someone in Russia would watch that garbage and like it? Some would, if it is well made, but most wouldn't. And that's how it should be because Russians are not the intended audience, westerners are. Same with every type of media.

I really don't think you know who Anet is trying to please with Cantha...

You keep ignoring the massive audience for the content type within the geographical demographic is predominant in. It just so happens that that audience is not you in this case.  You can continue to try to push your narrative but its markedly false. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Sigmoid.7082

[EpicName.4523]

20 hours ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

My favorite medieval location in the game is Rata Sum, definitely. Closely followed by Black citadel.

kitten the people complaining about style of the expansion are so far up their kitten...

Oh. Sir, you have very sophisticated language. Allow me to point out that Rata Sam and Black Citadel are not human settlements, they have their own atmosphere without trying to resemble certain country that I have already been found out to be mentioning too much. I must say, however, that by your way of expressing yourself you seem to be too far up your "kitten" too.

 

19 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I’ve always been put off by how Charr society panders to GW2’s Ancient Roman audience.

Well then, imagine entire continent of something similar but based on a different culture. And yes, I do understand sarcasm.

 

17 hours ago, Blue D Phoenix.7260 said:

Yeah i understand your pov, so im gonna say it in two different povs, which might be a hard pill to swallow for others.

1. Marketing pov - Top 3 heavily populated countries are China, India and US. Unfortunately India doesn't play mmos as much, they are into mobile games. And to please US audience, they went woke (no offence), like introducing the agender character. And to please the Chinese audience, they are "inspiring" from traditional Chinese culture. Which would give them a bigger user base.
2. Another pov - I always liked all cultures, whatever might be the "deal" with china idc, i like their tradional culture, the house structure, weapons, styles,etc. So maybe they got inspired by asian culture and created new cantha? ( Tho i would prefer Japanese/korean cultures more)

It is quite rare to find individual capable of actually presenting argument on both sides of something without throwing random garbage. I salute you.

 

17 hours ago, Klowdy.3126 said:

The thing is, OP never stated what would have been better. Why is it so off the wall to have an "Asian" expansion, when things like Mist of Pandaria, and Stormblood did very well? When things like kung fu movies, and kung fu panda are in pop culture?

 

The questioning of this move seems like OP is drawn far too much to focus on the cultural references, as opposed to seeing the game for what it is. Why does it matter which culture the game samples? Isn't it all just earth stuff anyway? 

Like everyone else I have an opinion. It's true I am not particularly fond of the setting it's true. The major point is, however, the reason why Cantha is chosen and will the game become oversaturated with certain themes for monetary reasons.   

 

7 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

/thread

And you are welcome out of this thread kind sir. I don't see you adding anything of value to it.

 

6 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

You are incorrect. Cantha pulls influences from all Asian cultures and not just Chinese. For example the Canthan villain in GW1 was Shiro Tagachi, which is Japanese. In the trailer there is a Gat, which is a traditional Korean hat from the Joseon period. The Shrine Guardians are Kitsune, which is Japanese. Marjory Delacor, who is of Cantha descent has a Katana, which is Japanese. There are many other examples if you look for them. I'd suggest you do your research before ranting, so that you don't appear ignorant. 

Ok, I see your point.  And katanas are cool, so I actually give the devs extra points for that, but 2 or 3 deities and a katana don't change where the majority of the influence is drawn. Yes, the country which-shall-not-be-named

 

5 hours ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

I like the fact that OP jumped thread when everyone realized they ain't complaining about Cantha and the fact that OP never played OG Guild Wars kek

I also like the fact that you specifically came to gloat. I made a point, I put forward my views, I am done. Is there any reason to respond to to three pages of text? Is it as if I don't have anything better to do? Clearly not, since I did just that, but for the last time. 

 

Discuss at your leisure or don't. I made my point. kek