Condi should not equal power burst damage

[Downstate.4697]

Things like ele or guard only have 1 real source of condi damage, which is burning. If you dont apply enough in a 1v1 the other person will heal through it passively or be able to heal it back every 15-20 seconds. This is why burn guard is either op or useless. Weaver can stack a lot of short duration burn in a short amount of time which i think is acceptable. They use a lot of resources to achieve that. Burn guard go brrr.

Condi isnt meta because it doesnt do enough cleave on downed bodies. I think that when EoD comes out you will see hybrid builds more often. Hybrid builds are better than straight condi because of the extra cleave as well as forcing your opponent to deal with two sources of damage and wasting cooldowns such as spellbreaker shout or a tempest water overload. 1 support cannot keep up with cleanse if 2 or 3 people are hybrid and a necro is corrupting boons.

Hybrid builds that I think you could see in ranked/ATs:

Grieving amulet harbinger

Sage amulet spectre

Wizard/sage amulet catalyst

Some form of trapper ranger

I dont think it would dominate the meta but i think it will shape how supports build. You may even see the end of straight support in favor of bruisers with support utility.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

43 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

And that makes a difference...... how?

If you take 5k damage, you lose 5k HP, what does it matter the "type" of damage?

That's not true with condi at all though...you clear the conditions and then the conditions all come right back and most of the time it's the same conditions you just cleared. So you clear 5k worth of condi damage only to get another 5k of condi damage put right back on you. Like clearing doesn't work. And most condi application skills are aoe so a simple dodge is not sufficient when you have aoe condi circles everywhere.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Eddbopkins.2630

[Ragnar.4257]

12 minutes ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

That's not true with condi at all though...you clear the conditions and then the conditions all come right back and most of the time it's the same conditions you just cleared. So you clear 5k worth of condi damage only to get another 5k of condi damage put right back on you. Like clearing doesn't work. And most condi application skills are aoe so a simple dodge is not sufficient when you have aoe condi circles everywhere.

If you're taking a 5k condi-stack, and then another immediately afterwards, you're not dodging what you should be dodging, or you aren't correctly assessing what is and is not worth cleansing.

If you stand still and don't dodge, a power build can chunk you for 5k damage per second much more easily.

There are no AoE circles that pulse 5k damage condi-stacks. You'll rarely see an AoE that pulses much more than 1k damage, and guess what, there are power-based AoE circles that can pulse 1k+ damage too.

The only difference is that monkey-brain can assess the power-based AoE circle as a threat and moves out of it, but monkey-brain doesn't assess condi-based AoE circle as a threat because it isn't flashing big red numbers in monkey-face. So monkey stands in condi-based AoE circle accumulating condis, and then 5 seconds later goes "whaaaa why can't I dodge all these condi-stacks on me, not fair" even though monkey absolutely did have the option to dodge the condi at the point of application 5 seconds previously, but monkey didn't because monkey only reacts to big red numbers and has no capacity to think ahead.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Curennos.9307]

11 minutes ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

That's not true with condi at all though...you clear the conditions and then the conditions all come right back and most of the time it's the same conditions you just cleared. So you clear 5k worth of condi damage only to get another 5k of condi damage put right back on you. Like clearing doesn't work. And most condi application skills are aoe so a simple dodge is not sufficient when you have aoe condi circles everywhere.

Name a condition spec and a time in the evening (EST). I'll make that class in a pvp lobby and hit you with skills, and you cleanse, and I'll tell you exactly what I'm doing and what skills you're getting hit by and how much damage you're mitigating.

 

I'll even switch to scourge, guardian, etc and put some circles on the ground for you to practice trying to dodge out of them.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

2 minutes ago, Curennos.9307 said:

Name a condition spec and a time in the evening (EST). I'll make that class in a pvp lobby and hit you with skills, and you cleanse, and I'll tell you exactly what I'm doing and what skills you're getting hit by and how much damage you're mitigating.

 

I'll even switch to scourge, guardian, etc and put some circles on the ground for you to practice trying to dodge out of them.

Most condi application skills have very little tells. Look at mesmer, those shatters have no cast time but can stack loads of confusion in no time at all. With necro you got staff skills to a signet to epidemic to corruptions all of witch just spew condis without any animation that can be reconizable in a team fight.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

51 minutes ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Things like ele or guard only have 1 real source of condi damage, which is burning. If you dont apply enough in a 1v1 the other person will heal through it passively or be able to heal it back every 15-20 seconds. This is why burn guard is either op or useless. Weaver can stack a lot of short duration burn in a short amount of time which i think is acceptable. They use a lot of resources to achieve that. Burn guard go brrr.

Condi isnt meta because it doesnt do enough cleave on downed bodies. I think that when EoD comes out you will see hybrid builds more often. Hybrid builds are better than straight condi because of the extra cleave as well as forcing your opponent to deal with two sources of damage and wasting cooldowns such as spellbreaker shout or a tempest water overload. 1 support cannot keep up with cleanse if 2 or 3 people are hybrid and a necro is corrupting boons.

Hybrid builds that I think you could see in ranked/ATs:

Grieving amulet harbinger

Sage amulet spectre

Wizard/sage amulet catalyst

Some form of trapper ranger

I dont think it would dominate the meta but i think it will shape how supports build. You may even see the end of straight support in favor of bruisers with support utility.

I suspect that you'll also see new amulets released with EoD.

[Ragnar.4257]

Just now, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I suspect that you'll also see new amulets released with EoD.

Don't you mean 'removed' ?

[Ragnar.4257]

13 minutes ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

Most condi application skills have very little tells. Look at mesmer, those shatters have no cast time but can stack loads of confusion in no time at all. With necro you got staff skills to a signet to epidemic to corruptions all of witch just spew condis without any animation that can be reconizable in a team fight.

You know that mesmer shatters can also do power damage, right? With the exact same animation? And half the cooldown? Why is 'Mind Wrack' okay, but 'Cry of Frustration' is not? They're the same in every way.

Literally everything you bring up is equally just as applicable to power damage, it's just that in the case of power damage for some reason you accept it.

Presumably because power-damage doesn't make you go through the humiliation of knowing you're already dead but having to wait and watch it happen, while with power-damage you're just dead.

That's what this is really about.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, Ragnar.4257 said:

Don't you mean 'removed' ?

Oh, they'll do that too, but they'll at least let amulets with any new stat combos be available for use until the PvP forum QQs for them to be removed.

[Curennos.9307]

1 minute ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

Most condi application skills have very little tells. Look at mesmer, those shatters have no cast time but can stack loads of confusion in no time at all. With necro you got staff skills to a signet to epidemic to corruptions all of witch just spew condis without any animation that can be reconizable in a team fight.

Mesmer clones have a HUGE tell for shatters - the clones all run towards you to explode. The only no-tell part about it is the shatter that happens around the caster, which is instant. 

 

Necromancer staff skills are all ridiculously low, damage wise. Staff is only used for its utility (fear, chill/poison, fear, range) and because there's an easily acquirable trait that makes the marks unblockable and has them generate life force. Staff2, the only one that does any significant condition damage, deals 2k bleed damage over ten seconds. 

 

Nobody is denying that some condition skills have animation issues - however, this is not condition damage specific in the slightest. Power skills have a ton of the same features - basically any thief build because of steal, spinal shivers, ranger longbow...People are telling you that you're just wrong about your assumptions on how conditions work. Classes function the same on a very base level - press button, cast skill, get result. Opponent dodged/mitigated? Skill already used, wait for cooldown to come back. That's how it works for both power and condition builds.

 

What you're doing is equivalent to complaining about a power build because it keeps hitting you after you've used your heal skill. I don't know how else to phrase this, but condition builds are allowed to do things like cast skills just like every other build, and if you dodge one of their skill it goes on cooldown, the same as every other build.

 

There's also no 'lack of tell' in big 'ol AoE circles, and this is another thing some power builds can also do. You can literally walk out of them. There is no AoE circle in the sPvP game, except maybe scourge's grandmaster trait that gives them an absolutely massive sand shade, that a single dodge roll will not take you out of. Unless for whatever reason you're dodging right into ANOTHER circle, which would beg the question of why you did that instead of going the other way. 

 

I mean this in the kindest way possible but you're lacking an even basic knowledge of how the game functions. I was genuine in my offer to show you how things work in-game: I'll even hop on mesmer and casts shatters on you until you can notice the tell, because there most certainly is one.

 

 

[Tescao.3042]

The condi system is limited to some extent and restrains itself. The first thing to do would be to give the poison field more identity, which means adding a poison aura and changing the weakness blast finisher to poison blast (along with the removal of weakness spam from the poison field). After these changes, the poison will become more common, so it needs to be mitigated (as Shao wrote here, remove the ability to deal damage, for the counter game with resistance). With poison change some damage needs to be returned, this can be done through bleeding (for bleeding, give the old effect of torment, more damage when you move, it's more like bleeding). From burning, you can make a standard DoT game, the damage will increase with each next tick (It's more like burning) 
This is just the first example that came across how you can make the condi game more multifaceted and mitigate the spam of a weakness that many hate.

If you want a condi game to be a "correct DoT game over time" then the current power builds and support does not match this so-called "correct DoT game" and the condi game itself is limited.

 

P. S. In general, it's sad that the combo game has stopped developing (for example, new fields - blood field, etc), which means that the condi game has also stopped in place and selfish builds came to the fore with minimum combo game.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

14 minutes ago, Curennos.9307 said:

Mesmer clones have a HUGE tell for shatters - the clones all run towards you to explode. The only no-tell part about it is the shatter that happens around the caster, which is instant. 

 

Necromancer staff skills are all ridiculously low, damage wise. Staff is only used for its utility (fear, chill/poison, fear, range) and because there's an easily acquirable trait that makes the marks unblockable and has them generate life force. Staff2, the only one that does any significant condition damage, deals 2k bleed damage over ten seconds. 

 

Nobody is denying that some condition skills have animation issues - however, this is not condition damage specific in the slightest. Power skills have a ton of the same features - basically any thief build because of steal, spinal shivers, ranger longbow...People are telling you that you're just wrong about your assumptions on how conditions work. Classes function the same on a very base level - press button, cast skill, get result. Opponent dodged/mitigated? Skill already used, wait for cooldown to come back. That's how it works for both power and condition builds.

 

What you're doing is equivalent to complaining about a power build because it keeps hitting you after you've used your heal skill. I don't know how else to phrase this, but condition builds are allowed to do things like cast skills just like every other build, and if you dodge one of their skill it goes on cooldown, the same as every other build.

 

There's also no 'lack of tell' in big 'ol AoE circles, and this is another thing some power builds can also do. You can literally walk out of them. There is no AoE circle in the sPvP game, except maybe scourge's grandmaster trait that gives them an absolutely massive sand shade, that a single dodge roll will not take you out of. Unless for whatever reason you're dodging right into ANOTHER circle, which would beg the question of why you did that instead of going the other way. 

 

I mean this in the kindest way possible but you're lacking an even basic knowledge of how the game functions. I was genuine in my offer to show you how things work in-game: I'll even hop on mesmer and casts shatters on you until you can notice the tell, because there most certainly is one.

 

 

We're both getting off topic to the op post. Condi should not equal power burst damage and it does. I think there should be a damage condi cap where you can't have more then 5 stacks of any given damage condi. That would mitigate the condi burst of 10+stack of burn doing 5k ticks for 5+seconds. So if you want to do big condi damage you have to have the skill to land bleed or burn or torment or confusion all together stacking multiple condis to get the kill instead of o let's me spam thing pulsing aoe Condi damage skill and spam 1 1 1 while I run around you with swiftness and speed runes.

[anjo.6143]

1 hour ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

And that makes a difference...... how?

If you take 5k damage, you lose 5k HP, what does it matter the "type" of damage?

 

Cause condi shouldnt do it.

Cause condi is doing dmg spending same time that powet does, thats one of the reason u pick fireweaver, condi ranger or even condi mes instead war or protoholo on sides and core necro is #1 on teamfights. 

 

Condi offers high reward with low low loooow risk

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

4 hours ago, Liewec.2896 said:

“condi burst' shouldn't be a thing.

saying 'condiburst' should be like saying 'glasscannon tank' the two things should be totally opposite

Ironically, the phonetics of “glasscannon tank” makes it sound like a fun concept to play

Edited February 10, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Ragnar.4257]

30 minutes ago, anjo.6143 said:

 

Cause condi shouldnt do it.

Cause condi is doing dmg spending same time that powet does, thats one of the reason u pick fireweaver, condi ranger or even condi mes instead war or protoholo on sides and core necro is #1 on teamfights. 

 

Condi offers high reward with low low loooow risk

1. Fireweaver, condi-ranger and condi-mes are not the only sidenoders around. They're viable, but lets not pretend they're the only, or even the best, choices for that role.

2. The reason warrior isn't meta has absolutely nothing to do with conditions. Warrior has some of the best condition management of any class, the reason it's not meta is because it can't deal with other power builds.

3. Necro is not #1 in teamfights because of "condi-bursts". It's #1 in teamfights because it's very difficult to kill with a support, and because boon-corrupts are super important. Not because of the condition-damage they turn into, but because removing stability/protection is massively powerful, as is spamming weakness/cripple/poison.

4. There are no condi builds that can burst like a power shiro-rev or nadesmith or soulbeast. An actual burst is near instant, not over 15-20 seconds. That's not what the word "burst" means. I guarantee you cannot make a condi-build that can burst harder than any proper power-DPS build.

5. Even if, hypothetically, condi could burst as hard as power, this would still be a situation in power's favour, since cleansing is a thing.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Ashgar.3024]

@OP what you're experiencing is a Warrior problem not a game problem. Generally Condi builds are still weaker than power ones as Condi Cleanses are really not hard to come by on most classes.

 

Also there's not really any bursty condi builds except Burn Guard who's a gimick build easy to focus down and maybe P/D Thief but it has counterplay in the forms of the endless options for projectile hate this games provides.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[grx.8714]

16 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Why don't you go and watch some recent tournaments played by top players and count the number of players on each team playing a condi build.

We'll all wait.

who cares of the same names tryhards communicating teams winning every tournament over and over, the majority of people is in silver/gold where the problems are, you cannot balance the game based on 20 best players.

Edited February 11, 2022 by grx.8714

[Zyreva.1078]

29 minutes ago, grx.8714 said:

the majority of people is in silver/gold where the problems are, you cannot balance the game based on 20 best players.

The game can (and should) be balanced arround top tier players. It can not get balanced arround l2p issues. The problems in silver/gold are the players themself, balance is pretty irrelevant there. Bad players are always going to struggle and cry about something. Like, how do you balance arround players that don't understand very basic game mechanics, can't actually name, which skills/traits/builds they consider to be op and why and sometimes might even fail to tell condi and power builds apart and cry "condi op" after they died to power burst with 2 stacks of bleed and some vuln on them?

[Fueki.4753]

10 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

The game can (and should) be balanced arround top tier players.

Why should it be balanced around a handful of players that come out on top, regardless of the balance anyway, when there are hundreds of other players whose experience drastically suffers?

It makes far more sense to balance around the vast majority, so they can have the best possible experience, while the top players can continue to enjoy their top end regardless of balance.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Ragnar.4257]

23 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Why should it be balanced around a handful of players that come out on top, regardless of the balance anyway, when there are hundreds of other players whose experience drastically suffers?

It makes far more sense to balance around the vast majority, so they can have the best possible experience, while the top players can continue to enjoy their top end regardless of balance.

Average silver player will get 1-shot by berserker and complain that core-ele is too hard to kill.

We should balance around this, yes?

Nerf core-ele! Nerf berserker!

It only makes sense to even think about discussing balance in a context where players are playing in a semi-sensible fashion. You can't balance around people rolling their faces across the keyboard, you turn the game into literally just random noise.

How can you even do balance for something that is behaving not by any logic, but pure random chaos?

Edited February 10, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[coro.3176]

Abundant cleanse being available to most builds necessitates "burst condi", "bury condi", or "constant condi" strategies, none of which equal power burst damage for the same number of skills landed.

• Burst condi - is where the build tries to spike the opponent with a high number of short duration stacks that will tick once or twice before being immediately cleansed. Eg. Burn guard. They will get cleansed quickly, but ideally they'll pay off in damage before they do. No builds that I know of can actually kill in one burst (if cleansed quickly), unlike power, and their skills are on cooldowns, so there's opportunity for counterattack.
• Bury condi - is where the build has long duration stacks of damage that they want to fully tick out and prevent the opponent from cleansing. The goal is to hit the opponent once with damage over time, and then keep applying different cover conditions in the hope that their cleanse doesn't reach the original damage stack. This takes time and requires constant attention to the opponent.
• Constant condi - Here, the goal is to just keep reapplying damaging conditions until the opponent runs out of cleanse. Again, takes time and requires hitting the opponent repeatedly.

Want this to be different? It can be .. but the amount of cleanse available is going to have to come way way down. If every build had access to .. say, 2 damaging cleanse per 20s and no more, then condi could be tuned such that builds could not burst and could rely on their conditions lasting a while (up to 20s if they time it right). Since we play a game where some builds currently have access to ~20+ cleanse in that time, condi builds have to spam to keep up.

Edited February 10, 2022 by coro.3176

[oscuro.9720]

Conditions aren’t problematic right now. They aren’t burst applied frequently anymore, and they don’t stack cover+damage at the same time anymore. These are the two areas that can start to make conditions problematic imo, and they are not issues atm imo. 
As far as your claims of damage, conditions should do more damage than power over time realistically. They have to be ramped up over time in order to get that level of effect, often times with multiple requirements being met to stack a large quantity of conditions. Presently, I see condition damage as being fairly well balanced atm across most classes. 
Are condition builds simple and rather lazy compared to power builds? Yes. Are they boring to fight against? For most people, yes. Are they dominating the meta rn? AFAIK no. Are there viable condi builds still? Imo yes. 
This all ends up as condition builds seemingly being very good at killing bad players, but getting outpaced by power builds slightly at higher levels of skill. So this is most likely a l2p problem. 
And if you play warrior, damaging conditions shouldn’t be your problem. Blind, weakness, and aegis are what kitten you over more. Warrior has the clear to sustain vs most condition classes is played correctly.

[Zyreva.1078]

34 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Why should it be balanced around a handful of players that come out on top, regardless of the balance anyway, when there are hundreds of other players whose experience drastically suffers?

Because that's the only way a game can be balanced. It is impossible to balance arround bad players and it is not balance what actually makes those players "suffer". It is their own inability and ignorance and that's not going to change no matter the game balance. So why ruin the game for anyone who did put in some time and work to improve their gameplay in a futile attempt to please players who are going to cry regardless?

 

[Fueki.4753]

20 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Because that's the only way a game can be balanced. It is impossible to balance arround bad players and it is not balance what actually makes those players "suffer". It is their own inability and ignorance and that's not going to change no matter the game balance. So why ruin the game for anyone who did put in some time and work to improve their gameplay in a futile attempt to please players who are going to cry regardless?

 

You need to differentiate between average players and bad players. They are not the same group.

Balancing around bad players obviously is bad. But the are a minority, just like the top end.

Average players however, are the majority that is supposed to bring the most engagement with the mode. Yet they suffer the most under the current absence of balance and thus are leaving in droves.

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[grx.8714]

1 hour ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Average silver player will get 1-shot by berserker and complain that core-ele is too hard to kill.

We should balance around this, yes?

Nerf core-ele! Nerf berserker!

It only makes sense to even think about discussing balance in a context where players are playing in a semi-sensible fashion. You can't balance around people rolling their faces across the keyboard, you turn the game into literally just random noise.

How can you even do balance for something that is behaving not by any logic, but pure random chaos?

No, average silver/gold players complain of ft scrappers, core necros, trapper dhs and we have all the reasons to balance or gut to the ground those classes. Never seen anyone complaining of core ele or berserker in the current meta, so your point is completely nonsense.

 

A lot of top players are abusing to the max level ft scrapper so they hope for anet to make a move and destroy it from pvp like it deserve.

 

And statements like "omg ft scrapper die so easily if fo used omg l2p issue" are useless. 

That is true for a communicating team and not for a random pug. Also it is a stupid 1 button build 1 kittening button that has the highest cleave/damage output superior even to a sic em soulbeast, how stupid is that?