Anet, The longer you stall the adjustments to DE meta the worse it will get

[Preppy.7046]

> Sure -you- may know the mechanics, but others does not and needs coaching. 

 

I don't think this tracks.  This is the easiest fight, mechanically, of anything I've seen from anet.  The only very glaring exception is the surprise 3d jumping puzzle wisp phase, which they've nerfed.  Everything else is crystal clear design, and instantly coachable.  You'll get people downing if they greed DPS or miss the AoE cues amongst the terrible visual clutter, but for the most part any reasonably experienced player is going to ace these mechanics.  That's what you would expect: you've seen all of these mechanics before.

 

The glaring problem has been that this fight is dominated by RNG.  They desperately need to put a cap on time-wasting mechanics, and perhaps even force vulnerable phases.  This fight is not harder than Triple Trouble because of the mechanics - those are easy to follow - it's harder than Triple Trouble because of the wild variance of unchecked RNG.

[Cameryn.5310]

2 minutes ago, Preppy.7046 said:

> Sure -you- may know the mechanics, but others does not and needs coaching. 

 

I don't think this tracks.  This is the easiest fight, mechanically, of anything I've seen from anet.  The only very glaring exception is the surprise 3d jumping puzzle wisp phase, which they've nerfed.  Everything else is crystal clear design, and instantly coachable.  You'll get people downing if they greed DPS or miss the AoE cues amongst the terrible visual clutter, but for the most part any reasonably experienced player is going to ace these mechanics.  That's what you would expect: you've seen all of these mechanics before.

 

The glaring problem has been that this fight is dominated by RNG.  They desperately need to put a cap on time-wasting mechanics, and perhaps even force vulnerable phases.  This fight is not harder than Triple Trouble because of the mechanics - those are easy to follow - it's harder than Triple Trouble because of the wild variance of unchecked RNG.

 

And again, not just the issues with RNG, but the fact that you get nothing for failing it.  I wish more people were talking about that.  To me, that's the biggest problem.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Cameryn.5310

[Deihnyx.6318]

4 minutes ago, Cameryn.5310 said:

Honestly, NOTHING in the game is as hard *and unrewarding* as a failed Dragon's End meta.

This is ALWAYS the reaction a few days in a meta that is more demanding than average. That was the point.

There's been so many of these discussions, each time adding more superlatives to it. It happens all the time. To be fair you need to compare this meta to TT or TD or AB when they had just come out. There were very similar complains.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Deihnyx.6318

[yoni.7015]

2 minutes ago, Preppy.7046 said:

> Sure -you- may know the mechanics, but others does not and needs coaching. 

 

I don't think this tracks.  This is the easiest fight, mechanically, of anything I've seen from anet.  The only very glaring exception is the surprise 3d jumping puzzle wisp phase, which they've nerfed.  Everything else is crystal clear design, and instantly coachable.  You'll get people downing if they greed DPS or miss the AoE cues amongst the terrible visual clutter, but for the most part any reasonably experienced player is going to ace these mechanics.  That's what you would expect: you've seen all of these mechanics before.

 

The glaring problem has been that this fight is dominated by RNG.  They desperately need to put a cap on time-wasting mechanics, and perhaps even force vulnerable phases.  This fight is not harder than Triple Trouble because of the mechanics - those are easy to follow - it's harder than Triple Trouble because of the wild variance of unchecked RNG.

Absolutely. The fight itself and the mechanics are not difficult. The RNG is obviously often a problem. 

[Pinkeh.4207]

They can fathom it when marketing starts advertising turtle skins and the sales department barely moves any units. 

[yoni.7015]

2 minutes ago, Cameryn.5310 said:

 

And again, not just the issues with RNG, but the fact that you get nothing for failing it.  I wish more people were talking about that.  To me, that's the biggest problem.

But why should you get something for failing? I don’t know of any other event in the game we’re get rewarded for failing. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Quench.7091]

The event is in a bad situation. Returning to content out of habit is important. A habit is difficult to form around a high failure rate event, even though it is a fun event. I hope it doesn't die out after the next Living World update comes out! It's really high quality content.

[NumNums.7935]

1 minute ago, Deihnyx.6318 said:

This is ALWAYS the reaction a few days in a meta that is more demanding than average. That was the point.

There's been so many of these discussions, each time adding more superlatives to it. It happens all the time. To be fair you need to compare this meta to TT or TD or AB when they had just come out. There was very similar complains.

 

Why does this make a difference, we are not talking about the past. We are here in 2022 playing EoD. As a argument this is actually a negative for Anet because that means they are just repeating their same mistake.

[Deihnyx.6318]

2 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

But why should you get something for failing? I don’t know of any other event in the game we’re get rewarded for failing. 

Raids give you tokens when you fail, it keeps you motivated to try harder.

[yoni.7015]

Just now, Deihnyx.6318 said:

Raids give you tokens when you fail, it keeps you motivated to try harder.

Ah true, I believe strike missions do that as well, at least the first try in aetherblade hideout, which was a wipe, gave two green things. Yeah maybe that isn’t a bad idea. 

[Deihnyx.6318]

8 minutes ago, NumNums.7935 said:

 

Why does this make a difference, we are not talking about the past. We are here in 2022 playing EoD. As a argument this is actually a negative for Anet because that means they are just repeating their same mistake.

I'm well aware it's 2022. This does not invalidate anything. People still need time to learn and adapt to every fight.

It makes absolute sense for what they're trying to do. You don't start easy and make it harder. You start hard and make it easier.
And to know whether something is too hard or not you need time to study the success rate after the initial learning phase has passed.

No, the bigger issue of 2022, and these last years in general is how players are becoming more and more impatient. Coming from a GW1 veteran this is completely out of control.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Deihnyx.6318

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, Deihnyx.6318 said:

This is ALWAYS the reaction a few days in a meta that is more demanding than average. That was the point.

There's been so many of these discussions, each time adding more superlatives to it. It happens all the time. To be fair you need to compare this meta to TT or TD or AB when they had just come out. There were very similar complains.

Just one anecdotal comparison, but I'm one of the players who stopped playing GW2 a little after HoT launch, partially because of the swing toward steeply increased difficulty from what had been before. I'm not a 1111 player by any means, but the sudden focus on challenge was one of the reasons I gradually stopped playing and took a multiple year break.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Firebeard.1746]

17 minutes ago, Deihnyx.6318 said:

Overall I think this is the one fair point that both casual and more dedicated players can agree on. The turtle didn't need to be tied behind this meta.
But I see a lot of criticism about the meta itself and how Anet takes too long to "fix". Because they can't fathom the fact that this was the original vision.
If it's broken, if it really is harder than they meant, they will fix it in time, they always did.

I don't like how I lose my 10 stacks of chest bonus work every time I fail the meta and decide to leave on failure, it makes my time doing events and playing that map feel absolutely unproductive. I also think gating gen3 materials behind it is unfair on some level as well. 

I still think the philosophy of the meta is fundamentally broken in a world where they can do instanced 50-man content. This is obviously requiring specific comps, teaching specific skills. with a DPS check. It's a full blown 50-man raid. That means, it should be instanced imo. 

If it was instanced 50-man content with more rewards for it than the OW version that's easier, I would be completely fine with that. And anet would get to see how popular "hardcore" content really is. 

[mythical.6315]

36 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

Where do you get that “large percentage of players” from? I’m curious. 

If you consider how often the meta succeeds, map chat, and the percentage of complaints on the forums/Reddit, you can gather that a large percentage of players are unhappy with the meta. 

[Maria Murtor.7253]

"It's all over now! Map's locked!"

[Bunny.9834]

1 minute ago, Maria Murtor.7253 said:

"It's all over now! Map's locked!"

huh? whatchu mean?

[Deihnyx.6318]

17 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Just one anecdotal comparison, but I'm one of the players who stopped playing GW2 a little after HoT launch, because of the swing toward steeply incrased difficulty from what had been before. I'm not a 1111 player by any means, but the sudden focus on challenge was one of the reasons I gradually stopped playing and took a multiple year break.

That's fair. But I would also say that a lot of GW1 veteran were hyped for this game and stopped playing for the opposite reason, everything was faceroll in the vanilla game and that's not what GW1 was.
Now, that does not mean your point isn't valid, the difficulty spike in HoT was brutal with barely any stepping stone.

[Raap.9065]

With the latest changes, you can accomplish the meta by landing on the good map where enough players know the mechanics, it just takes some persistence.

(A bigger issue with the meta is... zero replay-ability. Once you've done it once and got your egg, the remaining loot is so awful that it isn't worth repeating - thus fewer and fewer experienced players will put up with it.)

The real bottleneck, I find, is the strike mission you need to complete on the last step of the collections. At least large-scale meta events fall within the general comfort zone of most GW2 players, but difficult instanced content you need to find/create manual groups for, is well beyond the comfort zone of most players, especially given the often elitist behavior that comes with this type of content.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Raap.9065

[Deihnyx.6318]

18 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I don't like how I lose my 10 stacks of chest bonus work every time I fail the meta and decide to leave on failure, it makes my time doing events and playing that map feel absolutely unproductive. I also think gating gen3 materials behind it is unfair on some level as well. 

I still think the philosophy of the meta is fundamentally broken in a world where they can do instanced 50-man content. This is obviously requiring specific comps, teaching specific skills. with a DPS check. It's a full blown 50-man raid. That means, it should be instanced imo. 

If it was instanced 50-man content with more rewards for it than the OW version that's easier, I would be completely fine with that. And anet would get to see how popular "hardcore" content really is. 

I do have criticism for this meta as well, the waiting time to get to "do it" doesn't make sense for a hard meta, if you want people to learn, they should be able to retry quickly.
I think there should be a prize even if you lose, or like someone suggested different ranks depending on timer.

There's a lot of things that can be done, and have been done in past events. I'm only criticizing the fact that some people are quick to jump on Anet's throat even though they did communicate about this problem.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Deihnyx.6318

[Gibson.4036]

Just now, Deihnyx.6318 said:

That's fair. But I would also say that a lot of GW1 veteran were hyped for this game and stopped playing for the opposite reason, everything was faceroll in the vanilla game and that's not what GW1 was.
Now, that does not mean your point isn't valid, the difficulty spike in HoT was brutal with barely any stepping stone.

Totally.

There are a few different communities with different desires, and while I love a lot about GW2 and ArenaNet, their biggest flaw is that they can't seem to balance serving those communities, but instead keep lurching around trying to focus on one for a while, then the other, then get back to the one that's been neglected during that time.

I certainly don't envy the tightrope walk they've been on.

[yoni.7015]

11 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

If you consider how often the meta succeeds, map chat, and the percentage of complaints on the forums/Reddit, you can gather that a large percentage of players are unhappy with the meta. 

Yes, unhappy. But that was not what I replied to and asked. 

[Deihnyx.6318]

4 minutes ago, Raap.9065 said:

With the latest changes, you can accomplish the meta by landing on the good map where enough players know the mechanics, it just takes some persistence.

The real bottleneck, I find, is the strike mission you need to complete on the last step of the collections. At least large-scale meta events fall within the general comfort zone of most GW2 players, but difficult instanced content you need to find/create manual groups for, is well beyond the comfort zone of most players, especially given the often elitist behavior that comes with this type of content.

The easy solution is to not join elitist groups.
A very, very important thing to remember is that there is no timer. You can take the tankiest build and faceroll this boss. I'm not kidding. My group yolloed it down. No discord, discussion nothing. You got 5 downed? Just rez them. The boss doesn't one shot you and gives you plenty of time for rez.

Oh sure it took a while, but there's no penalty for not outputting raid level of damage.
So if people can get that mindset to just get tanky stuff they don't need raiders or elitists.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Deihnyx.6318

[Gibson.4036]

4 minutes ago, Raap.9065 said:

 

The real bottleneck, I find, is the strike mission you need to complete on the last step of the collections. At least large-scale meta events fall within the general comfort zone of most GW2 players, but difficult instanced content you need to find/create manual groups for, is well beyond the comfort zone of most players, especially given the often elitist behavior that comes with this type of content.

This has been my biggest concern from the start. I know how metas go, and I figure with some persistence it'll be possible to get through a successful run of the meta eventually. I doubt, however, I'll be able to find a group willing to indulge my daughter and I through the strike.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Gibson.4036]

1 minute ago, Deihnyx.6318 said:

The easy solution is to not join elitist groups.
A very, very important thing to remember is that there are no timers. You can take the tankiest build and faceroll this boss. I'm not kidding. My group yolloed it down. No discord, discussion nothing. You got 5 downed? Just rez them. The boss doesn't one shot you and gives you plenty of time for rez.

Oh sure it took a while, but there's no penalty for not outputting raid level of damage.
So if people can get that mindset to just get tanky stuff they don't need raiders or elitists.

Well, that gives me some hope, then. I've been hearing wildly conflicting things about this strike.

[mythical.6315]

5 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

Yes, unhappy. But that was not what I replied to and asked. 

So you say. I answered your question.