Why GW2 will fail on Steam without core combat changes. (Alac/Quickness Boons too powerful)

[Erise.5614]

25 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

 

But then everybody would just go full Celestial because it you don't have a modicum of multiplicative synergy, specialization into doing one thing is detrimental and you're better being a jack of all trades. Do you want everyone to play a Celestial build ?

 

You don't know what bad design is. I'm not even sure you understand the difference between bad design and bad balance.

Reducing how much it scales does not need to change how the game is played. In fact, if everything was designed like power and might it would be less of an issue as that is additive, not multiplicative. 

Meaning everything you do adds a bit of effectiveness. Not making very little difference regardless of what you do before blowing up by 10k+ once you move to a complete meta build. 

If I try to figure out which traits are good and try to observe the damage output in isolation with poor builds I will see differences in the hundreds of DPS. Suggesting it makes basically no difference. Considering your goal is increasing by ~20k. 

There is no way to do any form of balance patch to solve this. Because it's inherently hard to understand requiring full overview of the entire combat system before it finally clicks. The only real way to solve this is improving how easy it is to understand, improving game feedback.

And possibly reducing the maximum possible gap between the most and the least effective playstyles. Keeping the effort to get better output but bringing them closer to one another. Which would allow combat designers to make more precise assumptions for the encounter and therefore create a more targeted, enjoyable experience for more people. While also being able to build difficulty ramps more deliberately and easily. 

25 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

Also, that is the most unrealistic thing I've ever read. Someone who PERFECTED his rotation would have proper gear and traits.

I know several people who understand their class just fine but do not understand the combat system. I myself played over 2000 hours with my Mesmer before finally understanding the combat system. My rotation was fine. I hardly changed anything. I was also able to do various kinds of JP or fractal skips, hot swap skills for the occasion. 

But, for example, to this day I mix up precision and ferocity. Concentration and expertise. It took me an embarrassingly long time to remember what all of those names stand for. Honestly, it's comical that the tooltip description uses standard game terminology but all stats, all wiki pages, etc. use this GW2 exclusive naming scheme. My build was accordingly. An utter mess. I optimized for finishing content which meant plenty of toughness. Boon uptime was a mystery to me. Still no idea how one is supposed to improve in that regard. I see 0 chance of getting good at party boon uptime without addon data. Same with DPS frankly. Dealing 8k vs 30k condi damage looks basically the same unless you changed the setting for how damage is displayed hidden away in the options. And even then you won't spot the difference between 25k and 30k. 

The game gives you every opportunity to learn your skills while still have terrible effectiveness. 

Sure, perfect rotation and garbage gear is gonna be rare. But if you wanna push it you can go as low as 3k with an excellent rotation. The issue is how big the discrepancy is (easily 500% if both players do their best. If not 1000%) and how unintuitive everything about it is.

The game design around the combat is outdated. Not necessarily the combat itself. But if the combat is fine then the issue is in onboarding systems. Then the tutorials, the UI, the player feedback of all kind is lacking. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Omega.6801]

No.

[Mickey.4207]

On 3/25/2022 at 3:09 AM, mythical.6315 said:

 

Having group metas does not mean that the game is not solo friendly.  The entire story going from the personal story to the latest expansion can be done completely solo.  The vast majority of events in the game can be done solo as well. 

Other than story most of the content is not solo friendly in GW 2 and neither it's  casual. The difficulty jump from base game to HOT for example is too high. I really doubt any new casual players can even solo hero points in HOT.  So yes if they sell it as a casual and solo friendly game ita going to disappoint a lot of players. Best example of solo friendly games are Elder Scrolls Online and FFXIV.

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

Are we really using Lost Ark as an example? The game where the weakest link can use all the res's?

You do realize in Korea some people  won't even take you without the right engravings?  There is also a massive gap between builds and there are massive gear gates.

 

That kind of gatekeeping isnt here yet but it will once harder content comes in and pugs are already a kittenshow.

Nothing wrong with any of that, but there's no way entering the Gw2 endgame is harder than Lost Ark's. And yes it has a good LFG feature. But the potential for toxicity is much higher since a underperforming player can actively hurt the group a lot.

Edited March 26, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[mythical.6315]

1 hour ago, Mickey.4207 said:

Other than story most of the content is not solo friendly in GW 2 and neither it's  casual. The difficulty jump from base game to HOT for example is too high. I really doubt any new casual players can even solo hero points in HOT.  So yes if they sell it as a casual and solo friendly game ita going to disappoint a lot of players. Best example of solo friendly games are Elder Scrolls Online and FFXIV.

 

Most of the content is indeed solo friendly.  Unless it's a group event or a champion, it can be done solo.   If you don't think that most of the content outside of the story can be done solo then you really haven't played the game at all.

Edited March 26, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Mickey.4207]

58 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

Most of the content is indeed solo friendly.  Unless it's a group event or a champion, it can be done solo.   If you don't think that most of the content outside of the story can be done solo then you really haven't played the game at all.

 

I already gave you example of  true solo friendly games. In GW2 other than story what else is there to solo? Hero points? Hearts? Even hero points in HOT can't be soloed. So "most content is indeed solo friendly" is a blatant lie. And you also conveniently ignored the difficulty jump from base game to HOT. Moreover, i am talking from the point of view of new "casual" players who will join the game through steam. Not people like you have been playing it for a decade and know the game inside out. The game is rough once you leave base game and enter HOT as a new player. I know i almost quit twice when i was new back then.

 

 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Mickey.4207

[Linken.6345]

28 minutes ago, Mickey.4207 said:

 

I already gave you example of  true solo friendly games. In GW2 other than story what else is there to solo? Hero points? Hearts? Even hero points in HOT can't be soloed. So "most content is indeed solo friendly" is a blatant lie. And you also conveniently ignored the difficulty jump from base game to HOT. Moreover, i am talking from the point of view of new "casual" players who will join the game through steam. Not people like you have been playing it for a decade and know the game inside out. The game is rough once you leave base game and enter HOT as a new player. I know i almost quit twice when i was new back then.

 

 

Yea hot is abit harder then the other expansions but people complained and you got the other two expansions more to the level of difficulty the general population seem to want it ( only exceptions is Serpents' Ire and last map meta in the newest expansion Imo)

[mythical.6315]

2 hours ago, Mickey.4207 said:

 

I already gave you example of  true solo friendly games. In GW2 other than story what else is there to solo? Hero points? Hearts? Even hero points in HOT can't be soloed. So "most content is indeed solo friendly" is a blatant lie. And you also conveniently ignored the difficulty jump from base game to HOT. Moreover, i am talking from the point of view of new "casual" players who will join the game through steam. Not people like you have been playing it for a decade and know the game inside out. The game is rough once you leave base game and enter HOT as a new player. I know i almost quit twice when i was new back then.

 

 

You mean ESO and FF14?  You do realize that players cannot even do the entire story in FF14 solo, right?  Both games also have a lot of things that players cannot do solo.  Those are probably the worst examples that you could give to defend your position.

If you had played the game from the beginning through HoT, you would see that the "difficulty jump" wasn't actually something as abrupt as a jump.  Things becoming more challenging does not mean they are not solo friendly.

You picking one or two things, and ignoring everything else that can done solo, isn't going to make you right.  I can do exactly the same thing that you're doing for the two games that you gave as "true solo friendly".

Edited March 26, 2022 by mythical.6315

[HotDelirium.7984]

With the way Lost Ark dropped on steam we will do worse if we don't streamline features and education. The game is still fun but its getting a bit dated with its animations and features. Its 2022 and pressing F to interact but we don't even animate to touch the real object logically where a button is or petting animals just has us generically kneel down and not actually make any contact.

With respect, if Guild Wars 2 was released today on steam it would be vaporized with negative reviews.

[Krzysztof.5973]

On 3/23/2022 at 4:14 PM, Keegers.2573 said:

You unironically are making my point. People will always be bad, but we can make them better through balancing. We need to lower the skill floor so that there isn't a big difference in dps of 7k vs your 40k.. That is a 470% difference in dps in a game with no real vertical progression... We can have challenging content in the open world, maybe instead of a instagib mechanic there is a mechanic that punishes the player with a 50% damage debuff. You can punish players by making their numbers smaller, but not as punishing as death (which will lead to them sitting on the ground the whole fight instead of rezzing). I'm not saying good players shouldn't be rewarded but right now the reward difference is insanely imbalanced between top end and low end. It makes it harder to design content for Anet as well, like you mentioned the Meta in itself is not that hard, but the majority of players can't do it. Making a game more accessible does not lower the skill ceiling.

So let's handicap players who are actually good at the game to match the pavement levels of players who actually are? I'm gonna put this bluntly, your ideas are the kitten that festers in MMOs. 

[mortrialus.3062]

5 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

With the way Lost Ark dropped on steam we will do worse if we don't streamline features and education. The game is still fun but its getting a bit dated with its animations and features. Its 2022 and pressing F to interact but we don't even animate to touch the real object logically where a button is or petting animals just has us generically kneel down and not actually make any contact.

With respect, if Guild Wars 2 was released today on steam it would be vaporized with negative reviews.

For real. Hopefully the early game experience cleaning up they mentioned are pretty extensive.

 

I'm glad season 1 is getting put back in as well.  I've been in discord servers that aren't specifically gaming related, seen users give GW2 a try and the one two combo of no living world season 1 and forcing new players to buy season 2 has been what's driven off literally every single person I've seen who has happened to give the game a try. 

I really think anet needs to bite the bullet and make living world seasons packaged with their related expansions and I say this as someone who has always gotten their patches for free from logging in.  

Stuff like that is a way bigger deal than quickness and alacrity.

[dace.8019]

I think the revamp of core Tyria is something ANet are trying to get in order before launching on Steam. That probably got kicked back by years about the time GW3 got axed and ANet lost a big % of its staff. Core Tyria is really dated and absolutely will not represent the game we know. I actually have a lot of confidence in ANet to bring it up to the standards of the expansions/LW - the only speculation I have is down to whether or not they mess with it beyond complexity/prettiness and squeeze in some new stuff pertaining to expansions we already have and maybe alluding to future content.

[LucianDK.8615]

18 minutes ago, dace.8019 said:

I think the revamp of core Tyria is something ANet are trying to get in order before launching on Steam. That probably got kicked back by years about the time GW3 got axed and ANet lost a big % of its staff. Core Tyria is really dated and absolutely will not represent the game we know. I actually have a lot of confidence in ANet to bring it up to the standards of the expansions/LW - the only speculation I have is down to whether or not they mess with it beyond complexity/prettiness and squeeze in some new stuff pertaining to expansions we already have and maybe alluding to future content.

Gw3 have never existed or been hinted at.

[dace.8019]

7 hours ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

Gw3 have never existed or been hinted at.

When Mike O'Brien and many others left, the project they were working on was a new game in very early stages of development and it was cancelled. It was rumoured at the time to be a new Guild Wars game.. 

Edited March 27, 2022 by dace.8019

[LucianDK.8615]

1 hour ago, dace.8019 said:

When Mike O'Brien and many others left, the project they were working on was a new game in very early stages of development and it was cancelled. It was rumoured at the time to be a new Guild Wars game.. 

rumors is rumors, nothing you should take as a valid source. There is plenty of people thinking that GW3 will magically fix all issues with GW2.  Could easilly be another game.

Announcing a sequel to come would utterly kill the golden goose that is GW2.

[HotDelirium.7984]

10 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

For real. Hopefully the early game experience cleaning up they mentioned are pretty extensive.

 

I'm glad season 1 is getting put back in as well.  I've been in discord servers that aren't specifically gaming related, seen users give GW2 a try and the one two combo of no living world season 1 and forcing new players to buy season 2 has been what's driven off literally every single person I've seen who has happened to give the game a try. 

I really think anet needs to bite the bullet and make living world seasons packaged with their related expansions and I say this as someone who has always gotten their patches for free from logging in.  

Stuff like that is a way bigger deal than quickness and alacrity.

-Its 2022 and we still have no internal option to turn off the damage numbers so you can barely see combat anyways. I use arcdps to solve that.

-Also, the red channel line is still bugged (from thin to super wide) after all these years.

-Ending the personal story with the group fight for Zhaitan in all its lackluster will leave a sour taste in new players' mouths. I'm not saying changing everything about it...let's just optimize what we can.

[mythical.6315]

14 minutes ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

Ending the personal story with the group fight for Zhaitan in all its lackluster will leave a sour taste in new players' mouths.

Not everyone finds it to be that bad as some players try to exaggerate it to the point that it becomes a meme like with Trahearne. . 

[Vancho.8750]

1 hour ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

rumors is rumors, nothing you should take as a valid source. There is plenty of people thinking that GW3 will magically fix all issues with GW2.  Could easilly be another game.

Announcing a sequel to come would utterly kill the golden goose that is GW2.

It was most probably GW3 (there was a artwork leak), but the kicker is that it was most probably mobile MMO since NCSOFT went quite hard on those at the time. 

[Terra.9506]

HoT is only reason that bring me back to GW2 consider I play the game since launch and after defeat Zhaitan (which is one of the most disappoint final battle I've experiance in video game to be honest...) seem like nothing can keep me to the game anymore, the new content after still feel the same no new reward worth to working toward make me decide to drop the game and didn't have any plan to come back.

Until one day I got bore and decide to revisit GW2 with HoT even so I didn't expect much from it but new maps to explore some how HoT feel very different those Modrem and new maps didn't play around everything here really try to kill me it's such a breath of fresh air for me.

I never consider myself hardcore since I avoid group content in this game like plague but while openworld in HoT force people to work togather but it didn't force me to tire with any sort of organize group like raid or dungeon which give me enough freedom to do my own thing without a feeling that my skill will bring burden to the group.

For me the true GW2 experiance really start with HoT while core Tyria is simply just tutorial.

If any reason GW2 would fail on steam it'll be more like simple QoL issue than difficult spike content such as Bag within bag loots and tone of crap Dev flood us in inventory , Confusing craft and refinement interface ect. If player didn't like GW2 they'll not even stay long enough to reach Zhaitan let alone HoT.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Terra.9506

[Opun.3824]

I remember GW2 with full berserker party, and ur only support was dodge and personal heal... but stacking in dungeons wasnt best made XD

 

My point is that its good to have more variety in builds, that we have more support, condi, boons options but i think GW2 was made with dodge and personal heal in mind so this should be enough to finish everthing.

 

Support (Bonns, barriers, heals) should not be mandatory and be EXTRA option when ppl need some help with fighting something they have real problem with.

- Non Casual - Can finish content with only thier own dodge and personal heal, no other support needed

- Casual / PUGS? - Some support is needed (or good to have) so they can finish it easier and safer but it takes more time coz team looses dps for support

 

So:

 

Without support - faster and harder

With Support - slower and easier

 

Everyone happy XD

 

I think that is what GW2 was first and was meant to be from start.

[Killer.4360]

Why would steam users don't like the game? Are they special compared to us?

Edited March 28, 2022 by Killer.4360

[mythical.6315]

2 hours ago, Opun.3824 said:

I remember GW2 with full berserker party, and ur only support was dodge and personal heal... but stacking in dungeons wasnt best made XD

 

My point is that its good to have more variety in builds, that we have more support, condi, boons options but i think GW2 was made with dodge and personal heal in mind so this should be enough to finish everthing.

 

Support (Bonns, barriers, heals) should not be mandatory and be EXTRA option when ppl need some help with fighting something they have real problem with.

- Non Casual - Can finish content with only thier own dodge and personal heal, no other support needed

- Casual / PUGS? - Some support is needed (or good to have) so they can finish it easier and safer but it takes more time coz team looses dps for support

 

So:

 

Without support - faster and harder

With Support - slower and easier

 

Everyone happy XD

 

I think that is what GW2 was first and was meant to be from start.

 

And it still is that way.

[Astralporing.1957]

23 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

So let's handicap players who are actually good at the game to match the pavement levels of players who actually are? I'm gonna put this bluntly, your ideas are the kitten that festers in MMOs. 

No. Let's raise the pavement level so it would be significantly closer to those at the top. And let's change the impact of different things on effectiveness gap so it woudl promote actual skill over out-of-game knowledge.

Knowledge of basic player mechanics (like dodging, positioning, proper skill use) should be still important - in fact, it should become way more important than gearing and selecting a proper build is.

Currently it's the build first, skill second. A truly bad player in good build can outdps (by just plain autoattacking) a very good player in complete trash build. If you truly want for skill to shine, you should be all about not allowing such a situation to happen.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Tails.9372]

14 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

A truly bad player in good build can outdps (by just plain autoattacking) a very good player in complete trash build.

No he can't because a truly bad player is wasting his (and usually someone elses) DPS by constantly being in downstate / fully dead while a "very good player in complete trash build" is not dying to rather obvious mechanics while also constantly being on the offence. The main issue that holds the average causal player back is not the lack of a proper build but the complete lack of situational awareness. Just go and watch the average player play some T1 fractals, there is a reason as for why the Dulfy fight wipes so many groups on a consistent basis and its not their builds. Same with meta events, to this day people fail to split up during the ship phase in Palawadan even if the com tells them to do so.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

No he can't because a truly bad player is wasting his (and usually someone elses) DPS by constantly being in downstate / fully dead while a "very good player in complete trash build" is not dying to rather obvious mechanics while also constantly being on the offence.

And? there are builds out there that are just not capable of doing more than 3-4k even if you play them to perfection. Good build when autoattacking can do more than that even when dead half of the time.

Edit: it's actually even lower than that. Tempest Magi healer when it was still occasionally used (i have no idea if it still is), had a sub-1k dps even when fully buffed. And that was an actual, sensible build, and not a trash one. There are builds that are much worse than that  - ones that also sacrifice all their dps, but not giving anything usable to the group.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Astralporing.1957