Shiyo.3578 Posted March 24, 2022 Share Posted March 24, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, godfat.2604 said: * Better personal stability or more skills that can spread stability. This is in attempt to be less reliant on Firebrand, or Guardian in general. * Better personal heal and condition cleanse. Same as above, make it less reliant on Scrapper. No, thats horrendous. This is already sustain wars 2. Stability shouldn't exist in any game mode, self healing skills need a 60s CD or 50% nerf globally. 10 hours ago, Littlekenny.4196 said: An equivalent AoE stunbreak would be needed to compete but even then, tomes offer a lot. Another thing that shouldn't exist in this game. CC is already practically useless 1v1 and zergs are IMMUNE to CC. On 3/23/2022 at 2:43 PM, RisenHowl.2419 said: elementalist- rock solid in earth: 3 stacks of stability for 8s, increase radius to 600. Add a 10s cd so weavers can't abuse it tempest- harmonious conduit: Increase stability to 2 stacks for 4s, apply to allies in a 360 radius catalyst- staunch allies: grant 2 stacks of stability for 5s to allies when you grant them an aura warrior- make soldier's comfort in tactics baseline, add a trait in its place that causes shouts to grant 2 stacks of stability for 5s to affected allies ranger- protect me: remove barrier, now grants 3 stacks of stability for 8s to affected allies druid- verdant etching: remove the seeds of life effect, glyphs now grant 2 stacks of stability for 5s in a 360 radius engineer- remove takedown round in tools, add a trait that grants 2 stacks of stability for 5s in a 360 radius on using a toolbelt skill mechanist- Crisis mode: The mech targets the area around the player with this effect. mesmer- mantra of concentration: increase stability duration to 8s, 360 radius No, this game doesn't need more AOE CC immunity. Boonballs are already unfun and overpowered enough and you want EVERY class to be a boon ball? Stop it. Edited March 24, 2022 by Shiyo.3578 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenesis.6389 Posted March 24, 2022 Share Posted March 24, 2022 22 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said: Another thing that shouldn't exist in this game. CC is already practically useless 1v1 and zergs are IMMUNE to CC. Practically useless only depending on the class you're facing, not every class has equal access to stability. Zergs can't function without it because of all the cc's in the game, I mean we had almost a year to see that around HoT release when they nerfed stability to the ground and everything was pirateship wars, fun for range sure, not so much for melee specs, then they went a complete 180 and turned combat into boon balls for 7 years. Other than that it's real easy to get locked down with cc's in this game, especially when there's no diminishing returns on them and most stun breakers are one use and then on long cooldowns. Stability shouldn't be removed, but the relationship between stability /breakers and cc's could use work for sure, the same goes for boons and conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted March 24, 2022 Share Posted March 24, 2022 3 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said: Why does it matter if they are weak? It's not like they are considering them for any sort of balance reason. Them existing as they have existed does no harm to the game. Removing "clutter" as you call it doesn't solve anything when the developers have already spent the time making the skills. Personally I get a laugh out of any time I see someone pop the nornbear in WvW, or someone use leopard stealth to disengage. Just let the people that enjoy the skills enjoy them rather than removing them from the game because they don't fit your criteria of proper strength. how about no? The dev's have never left anything no matter how small it was that I enjoyed alone. They removed tomes from guardian back when I liked the class and then resold it to me. The stripped herald of all that I liked from HoT over the years. Why should this be any different at all? Streamline it. Remove it. kitten what people like. They've treated so many other facets of classes and combat like that; Why should garbage be any different at all? Either make it so we can really feel like it means at least a shred of something or pitch it. And this is coming from someone who really only ever wanted to be a norn who turned into a big werebeast and be like how they were showcased in guild wars 1. If they're going to neuter and make it feel like crap to use it I'd rather them deny us the whole thing and just finish it. It's not about my perception of power; The cooldown is too long and the power for that cooldown is not good enough to warrant taking it over any other option. Its horrible and honestly feels bad, not only did the icebrood saga suck and our one norn story suck as well the finale to their arc but we've sat here with this for the games entire lifespan. I only play norn. I only like or care for the norn. As a norn player constantly it feels like "You're not the target audience" Because they can't write well when it comes to their lore or stories anymore, so really all I Wanted for at least what made the race unique to shine. Might be selfish. But everyone on this forum is selfish; So I don't see the outlying issue here. They're "all about consistency" now. So make it consistent. Do something about this or remove them. Like they've done every single other time something like this was even remotely close to being as it is. And yes. I will die on this hill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God.2708 Posted March 24, 2022 Share Posted March 24, 2022 1 hour ago, Acyk.9671 said: To be frank this thread is kinda pointless. Most needed buffs require design changes and to improve the current meta through balance we need nerfs... I mean, that is what makes the question interesting. Despite a mountain of misinformation and strong desire to nerf way more than buff there are things that you can't nerf into viability by their nature. They might need design changes, but it's an actual interesting thought experiment to try to explore what needs buffing. I think certain CC skills should get buffed back to dealing middling damage for example. I think the CC=/=damage idea plays out alright in PvP but in WvW the pure CC means no damage is a bad move. No amount of nerfing things will fix this. It makes certain skills simply meaningless in the contexts they get used in WvW. There are other things but... the thread is mostly de-railed at this point. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acyk.9671 Posted March 24, 2022 Share Posted March 24, 2022 (edited) deleted Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted March 24, 2022 Share Posted March 24, 2022 1 hour ago, God.2708 said: I mean, that is what makes the question interesting. Despite a mountain of misinformation and strong desire to nerf way more than buff there are things that you can't nerf into viability by their nature. They might need design changes, but it's an actual interesting thought experiment to try to explore what needs buffing. I think certain CC skills should get buffed back to dealing middling damage for example. I think the CC=/=damage idea plays out alright in PvP but in WvW the pure CC means no damage is a bad move. No amount of nerfing things will fix this. It makes certain skills simply meaningless in the contexts they get used in WvW. There are other things but... the thread is mostly de-railed at this point. I think CC should go on a case by case basis right? Like for example. Take a look at warrior. What are warriors really good at doing? Locking down targets with cc's and brawling/burst. So give them damage on CC back right? Weapons however who have cc's need to be addressed in general. If you're taking a weapon it'd better do damage; This BS where we have whole weapon types who just can't be played effectively because they suck now is lame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dralor.3701 Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 Would rather see them buff the classes that aren’t as good as opposed to nerf everything into the ground. Ele and Druid should be better at support. Some other classes need more boon hate/strip so this isn’t falling solely on the necro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikharzeeh.8016 Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 31 minutes ago, Dralor.3701 said: Would rather see them buff the classes that aren’t as good as opposed to nerf everything into the ground. Ele and Druid should be better at support. Some other classes need more boon hate/strip so this isn’t falling solely on the necro. ele is yet a good support, just provides less overall than scrapper. there's yet three stripping classes idk why everyone has to be able to do everything. and corruption of boons is simply necro work. nobody really needs a druidsupport. rangers and thiefs dont have the weapons and skillsets to be groupplayers. (over15v15 size) ___ what could use buffs: slow skills. a slow cast obvious animation skill should always do damage and overall pay off for the user. and yeah, bad weapons like guardian hammer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 2 hours ago, Dralor.3701 said: Would rather see them buff the classes that aren’t as good as opposed to nerf everything into the ground. Ele and Druid should be better at support. Some other classes need more boon hate/strip so this isn’t falling solely on the necro. Yes let's buff 27 specs instead of nerfing 2.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dralor.3701 Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 40 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said: Yes let's buff 27 specs instead of nerfing 2.... They don’t have to buff every single elite. It would just be nice if some of those classes that basically have 0 use in the group dynamic got some love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acyk.9671 Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 (edited) deleted Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted March 25, 2022 Author Share Posted March 25, 2022 11 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said: @DanAlcedo Tempest never had 10 man shouts in WVW untraited (even with the trait tempestuous aria which you give up stab/regen for lasted from March 2019 to December 2020 only). It was 10 man overload water in PVE, sand squall (it was cut in Feb 2020 PVP patch to 5), and that's about it. You're confusing 10 man draconic echo on herald with tempest. 🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lotus.5672 Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 5 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said: Yes let's buff 27 specs instead of nerfing 2.... Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldtart.4785 Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 Trying to buff anything to be on the same level as scrapper would be madness. The current support scrapper is a build that fundamentally shouldn't exist. Healing skills as strong and accessible as med blaster shouldn't exist. AoE invis shouldn't exist (invis really shouldn't exist at all but that's another topic). High-uptime superspeed shouldn't exist. Random condi conversion shouldn't exist. The only acceptable part of the current scrapper is its raw condi clearing potential. Guardian is a little more complicated. I think guard being the stab class is fine because if you really tried to make proper alternatives the end result would be that we just run all of them along with guard and have completely over the top stab access. I think there should probably be a bit more sacrifice involved in pushing stab uptime; currently the best lines for a guard to run to spam stab are honor, virtues and firebrand, which are also the best lines to run for every other kind of support. Perhaps moving some of that stab potential to valor for example might be better. The other issue of course is that stand your ground and hallowed ground are already amazing stab sources even without any trait support. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coro.3176 Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 55 minutes ago, Coldtart.4785 said: Trying to buff anything to be on the same level as scrapper would be madness. The current support scrapper is a build that fundamentally shouldn't exist. Healing skills as strong and accessible as med blaster shouldn't exist. I'm not sure about that. Consider that half the damage in the game currently isn't being applied in big fights because damaging conditions get cleansed after 1 tick every time, projectiles are nearly always blocked or reflected, and protection uptime is basically 100%. If some of the other support aspects were toned down a bit - less cleanse, less anti-projectile, less protection, I actually don't think the healing output would be enough to keep players up in the face of incoming damage spikes, and that's good. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of the Fire.6870 Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 On 3/24/2022 at 8:52 PM, Infusion.7149 said: @DanAlcedo Tempest never had 10 man shouts in WVW untraited (even with the trait tempestuous aria which you give up stab/regen for lasted from March 2019 to December 2020 only). It was 10 man overload water in PVE, sand squall (it was cut in Feb 2020 PVP patch to 5), and that's about it. You're confusing 10 man draconic echo on herald with tempest. condi cleans on water overload should be still for 10 man but not all shouts were for 10 but they nerfed that the same goes for shout warrior and must know I played both a lot and I argued in my server community a bit about some of the shouts . Actually the patch said specific they reduced the effect from shouts from 10 to 5. This also the reason why Heal Tempest got dropped for the most part on my server because the build couldn't give 10 man super speed any more , so heal or sec heal is only scrapper for the most part. If I look on sand squall on the wiki it says: February 28, 2022 End of Dragons release: (Undocumented) Maximum targets reduced from 10 to 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldtart.4785 Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 You can't really say half the damage isn't being applied when we get all our damage from sources that aren't stopped by condi clear or projectile hate. It has never been possible to heal through a proper damage spike either; you survive it because you dodge or stunbreak your way out of the fire before it kills you. The excessive healing available through med scrapper makes it far too easy to then recover from any damage you took and makes all further damage irrelevant until the enemy group gets enough cds back to do another bomb. I'm not saying that sustain can't exist but it needs to take more effort than it currently does. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acyk.9671 Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 (edited) deleted Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infusion.7149 Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said: condi cleans on water overload should be still for 10 man but not all shouts were for 10 but they nerfed that the same goes for shout warrior and must know I played both a lot and I argued in my server community a bit about some of the shouts . Actually the patch said specific they reduced the effect from shouts from 10 to 5. This also the reason why Heal Tempest got dropped for the most part on my server because the build couldn't give 10 man super speed any more , so heal or sec heal is only scrapper for the most part. If I look on sand squall on the wiki it says: February 28, 2022 End of Dragons release: (Undocumented) Maximum targets reduced from 10 to 5 In PVE. --- 1 hour ago, Coldtart.4785 said: Trying to buff anything to be on the same level as scrapper would be madness. The current support scrapper is a build that fundamentally shouldn't exist. Healing skills as strong and accessible as med blaster shouldn't exist. AoE invis shouldn't exist (invis really shouldn't exist at all but that's another topic). High-uptime superspeed shouldn't exist. Random condi conversion shouldn't exist. The only acceptable part of the current scrapper is its raw condi clearing potential. Guardian is a little more complicated. I think guard being the stab class is fine because if you really tried to make proper alternatives the end result would be that we just run all of them along with guard and have completely over the top stab access. I think there should probably be a bit more sacrifice involved in pushing stab uptime; currently the best lines for a guard to run to spam stab are honor, virtues and firebrand, which are also the best lines to run for every other kind of support. Perhaps moving some of that stab potential to valor for example might be better. The other issue of course is that stand your ground and hallowed ground are already amazing stab sources even without any trait support. Fundamentally what is "broken" about scrapper is gyro skills doing 3 or 4 things at once with one skill. If superspeed and quickness were not on traited gyros with the same durations as PVE it would not be nearly as strong. Before the gyro reworks superspeed was often only on 3 to 5s duration with 30+ cooldown meaning AoEs can land more reliably. The Kinetic Accelerators change not being split was not a good idea. We had AoE invis with mass Invisibility and veil before even in the core days, so stealth on the elite isn't the issue in my opinion. Scrapper boon output isn't that high with purity of purpose changes, a large part of why it hasn't overtaken Healbrand in PVE is lack of reliable fury and might. Med blaster had a PVP/WVW split only for the base heal, so if the added healing per boon were capped or also split that might help the situation. However, this is a thread about buffs. There's only two classes that really need help to be more viable, which are thief (unless you roam or play staff daredevil all the time) and ranger (especially ones with pets). Of those two only ranger would be actively trolling your group unintentionally. Not scrappers/holo, firebrands/DH, scourge/reaper, heralds/vindicator/ren, chronos, spellbreakers, and tempests. Edited March 25, 2022 by Infusion.7149 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halbarz.3854 Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 Nerf Firebrand and scrapper (boonspam, cleans, etc) they are just ridiculous at this point. AoE stacking should be limited + damage debuff the more AoE's stack / cross each other. I would "buff" or rework forts/keeps increasing Gate and Wall HP, add new upgrades and add a 4T of upgrade we can add to the forts (passive/active) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozumi.5816 Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said: There's only two classes that really need help to be more viable, which are thief (unless you roam or play staff daredevil all the time) and ranger (especially ones with pets). Of those two only ranger would be actively trolling your group unintentionally. Both of those classes completely ruin roaming. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikharzeeh.8016 Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 2 hours ago, Halbarz.3854 said: Nerf Firebrand and scrapper (boonspam, cleans, etc) they are just ridiculous at this point. AoE stacking should be limited + damage debuff the more AoE's stack / cross each other. I would "buff" or rework forts/keeps increasing Gate and Wall HP, add new upgrades and add a 4T of upgrade we can add to the forts (passive/active) just no. i'm yet supersick of camping for hours at keeps with a siege hugging blob inside. bigger wall% sounds not like a smart change to have. support are by far not broken. especially how lacking the skills of most players on these are... they are nearly in need of a buff xD 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halbarz.3854 Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 2 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said: just no. i'm yet supersick of camping for hours at keeps with a siege hugging blob inside. bigger wall% sounds not like a smart change to have. support are by far not broken. especially how lacking the skills of most players on these are... they are nearly in need of a buff xD Support not broken? Not sure if you and me are playing the same game. WvW has nothing to do with player skill anymore, but all about boon-trains passing through. Condi cleans and condi stacking is also way over the top, and overall damage is to high as well. Hours at a keep because of siege blobs? When and where is this happening? Anet has ruined the whole concept of defending, siege is very much useless at this point. A T3 Keep fight could take hours several years ago, now people say the defense or attack was epic when they spent 10 min on it. Another thing that needs to be nerfed is the anti projectile abilities. I am curious if you could elaborate on on how Support is "by far not broken" 🙂 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozumi.5816 Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 1 hour ago, Halbarz.3854 said: Another thing that needs to be nerfed is the anti projectile abilities. Everything defensive in this game needs to be adjusted. This is a heavily defensive biased game which leads to a bad PvP experience. PvP should always be offensively biased, or you get boring, stale, lame gameplay. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of the Fire.6870 Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 10 hours ago, Acyk.9671 said: that's the pve split, the WvW splithad already been nerfed for over a year but i don't remember the exact date. Yeah that what I meant it isn't but it was since Hot until then . This is unlike it was never. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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