Don’t turn Rama into another Rytlock

[Eaglebach.7593]

So far they have a lot in common. Both are extremely handsome, manly, rebellious, and certainly the epitome of the “alpha male” type of character. They’re also both warriors who refuse to run banners. They both have their own distinctive, unique feature (sohothin for Rytlock and that big black thingie on Rama’s head). In short they’re just super attractive!

 

Character-wise, they have the most developments amongst their peers. Moreover, they’re amongst the most useful NPC teammates that accompany the Commander on crucial missions. In fact, the two characters both have mentors who end up being secretly evil (Bangar and Li), and consequently, both Rytlock and Rama are forced to dispose their father-figure.

 

Both our heroes are romantically involved with a bossy female partner (Crecia and Min) with whom they grew up under the mentorship of aforementioned evil father-figure. Interestingly, both these female partners become the successor of the aforementioned evil mentor and end up being the superior officer of our heroes (Crecia is now the Acting-Imperator of Blood Legion and Min is the Acting-Minister of MinSec). Overall, we can see that Rama is being built up to be a Rytlock 2.0.

 

Now let’s look at what happens to Rytlock after Crecia took over Blood Legion. The once heroic charr now becomes whipped and he is being kept on a leash by his female-boss/wife(?). Poor Rytlock has to sneak out to attend his teammates’ weddings and is living in constant fear (of his wife) and boredom (of the desk-works). Is that what awaiting Rama once the next expansion is over?

 

Please ANet, don’t let Rama be a whipped under Min’s tyranny. Let him run free and explore Tyria with his fellow detectives. Keep Rama great!

[Farohna.6247]

I really don't think Rytlock is that "whipped", to use the generic and rather sexist term, but rather is rebuilding a relationship that he mutually wants with Crecia.  So he jokes that he's on a short chain, in his own growling, grudging manner (I love Rytlock btw), as often someone does about a partner.  I don't think he would just become a doormat for someone unless he wants to stay around more for them. 

I see Rama in a more casual relationship, two people who are dedicated to their work and to their own lives, and enjoy each other's company at leisure. It's more of saying if you want it more permanent fine, but if not, stop by when you're in town..you know where they keys to the door are *wink*.  

[Minjin.8259]

I liked Rama...well I did right up until the very end.  Then he reminded me of Logan, unable to tell the girl he likes that he likes her.  Enough with that.  

[Veya.2871]

26 minutes ago, Farohna.6247 said:

I really don't think Rytlock is that "whipped", to use the generic and rather sexist term, but rather is rebuilding a relationship that he mutually wants with Crecia.  So he jokes that he's on a short chain, in his own growling, grudging manner (I love Rytlock btw), as often someone does about a partner.  I don't think he would just become a doormat for someone unless he wants to stay around more for them. 

Also the work that Crecia is pushing Rytlock to do is, to put bluntly, some of the most important stuff any Charr has ever done even if it is not exactly glorious and bombastic, they are working to re-establish stability for their people following a civil war that killed a massive portion of their population, it just happens to be incredibly dull work and Rytlock hates having to do it despite being aware of the importance.

[Farohna.6247]

1 hour ago, Veya.2871 said:

Also the work that Crecia is pushing Rytlock to do is, to put bluntly, some of the most important stuff any Charr has ever done even if it is not exactly glorious and bombastic, they are working to re-establish stability for their people following a civil war that killed a massive portion of their population, it just happens to be incredibly dull work and Rytlock hates having to do it despite being aware of the importance.

Definitely not a desk job type lol.  He knows what he's good at what he does, as does Rama.  Rytlock is at a point where he knows he's needed to help rebuild, Rama is ready for some adventure.  We'll see how it goes 😊. I hope for more with both.

[Danikat.8537]

1 hour ago, Veya.2871 said:

Also the work that Crecia is pushing Rytlock to do is, to put bluntly, some of the most important stuff any Charr has ever done even if it is not exactly glorious and bombastic, they are working to re-establish stability for their people following a civil war that killed a massive portion of their population, it just happens to be incredibly dull work and Rytlock hates having to do it despite being aware of the importance.

It's also not something he's doing because of his romantic relationship with Crecia (charr don't typically form official, permanent couples like humans do) but because he's a Blood Legion Tribune. It's literally his job.

All the members of the Stone warband are fairly high ranking officers and the reason we don't see the rest of them is because they're usually off doing their administrative duties, whereas Rytlock is usually doing...anything else. I suspect the line about being 'on a short leash' is about finally making him do the job he's supposed to have been doing for years, now that she out ranks him and can do that.

[SinisterSlay.6973]

Needs more Canach

[Omega.6801]

Projecting much? I usually don't jump to this conclusion. But most of the things you say don't occur to me more than what is mentioned ingame. Yes, Rytlock "says" he had to sneak away to attend the meeting. But I don't see him fearing for his life. Yes, their stories do align, which, if pointed out like you did sounds more like lazy, unimaginative writing ("it's like poetry, it rhymes").

[KeoLegend.5132]

We need more Canach

The biggest GW2 flaw for me is the game being too much "woke". Let's have a look on what we have:

•  Male friends: Braham (a grumpy kid), Logan (the boring simp), Rytlock (the once good character but got under the foot of a female and now is just a slave of her, and let her take all the dominance spot), Gorrik (funny guy who makes us laugh), Canach (great character but not enough screen time)
• Female friends: Zojja and Eir (both strong and interesting females, carried most of D. Edge for me), Kasmeer (the stunnigly beautiful and very powerful mesmer with girly archetype that we love), Marjory (another smart inteligent and well written female), Taimi (she's way smarter than all asura combined), Joon (great character development, lead and smart). Also, almost all the Leading roles are Female: Queen Jena, the Pale Tree, Crecia, Joon, Aurene, Dessa, Cantha Queen, and so on.

 

When it come to villains, we have the usualy bad man troupe dumb villains, while the females are much more well written, smart and strong, just compare smodur to the smart leader of ash legion, Joko the Clown or the "im bad because i am" trope that almost all male villains have, while with female there's always a reason, always something and sometimes even redemption

 

What i miss in a NPC is a guy that IS an Alpha Male. Strong, dominant, respectful, charming and very caring with a very high sense of protection. A natural leader.

 

Ramma is a very interesting character. I hope he doesn't because a fragile man. I honestly don't know why is not ok to try to be or to have the Good ol' Alpha Male. Its almost like being one of it is an offense to some people. We don't just need Ramma to be good, we need a whole bunch of new male characters that worth enjoying.

[Farohna.6247]

I would love to see more of Canach....but did it bother you when he was with the Countess?  Uh oh, woman in charge there...watch out.  Don't let your personal misogyny shine through.  Canach doesn't have time for alpha males, or their preconceived ideas of what someone should think of them.  

[KeoLegend.5132]

1 hour ago, Farohna.6247 said:

I would love to see more of Canach....but did it bother you when he was with the Countess?  Uh oh, woman in charge there...watch out.  Don't let your personal misogyny shine through.  Canach doesn't have time for alpha males, or their preconceived ideas of what someone should think of them.  

Hmm, so you are telling that having 100% of the leaders as female is totally ok, but wanting one strong male lead is miso***?

Interesting. Tell me more about equality

[Farohna.6247]

38 minutes ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

Hmm, so you are telling that having 100% of the leaders as female is totally ok, but wanting one strong male lead is miso***?

Interesting. Tell me more about equality

Not in the least, I like an equal balance.  However the term alpha male is rather derogatory to gentleman and frequently has a toxic quality to it.  An outdated notion that people must be a pack animal with a dominant leader....even wolves have been disproved to have that hierarchy.  You noted Canach....who is by that logic a lone wolf.  Back to the original point which has been added to....Rytlock isn't under the thumb of Crecia and is not emasculated, nor will Rama be oppressed by a perceived matriarchy.  

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Back before I switched exclusively to women I dated men and you should probably know most of them don't like being referred to as alpha males or liked for traits often associated with toxic masculinity.

 

Some of my ex-boyfriends had to live through fathers who were praised as "gods of manliness" who abused them by treating them terribly every time they showed signs of being soft or fragile in any way, and spent their adult lives trying to escape it, and maintained close bonds only with their mothers and sisters.

 

The whole "alpha male" thing is mostly a trope of Hollywood and online Internet forums. Its something that's rarely encountered outside of media, especially fantasy media.

 

SPOILERS FOR ICEBROOD SAGA

"Real men" are the victims of these mindsets, not the beneficiaries. That was the whole point of Rytlock's storyline, that Charr society had made him into a man who didn't care about his cub or his family in general, only kicking butt and taking names for the sake of the Legions, and it cost him everything.

 

He was only able to make it through it because of his bond with the Commander, who had taught him how to care for others (compare PS Rytlock to LWS4 Rytlock, especially in War Eternal).

 

Ryland was the biggest bad-kitten of them all, but couldn't even love his own parents in the end. He died a sad and pointless death that accomplished nothing all because of his stubborn pride.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[Zola.6197]

4 minutes ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

in the end, we want the same thing, equality, and you got to agree that we have waaay to many strong female leads and waay too much men with either tons of issues or too goofy and funny. We are missing the serious leader troupe

You can go to virtually any other piece of media - book, movie, tv show, video game, and beyond - and in the overwhelming majority of instances, you will only find "Strong Male Characters" in leadership roles. Maybe there will be one female leader that is seen as an anomaly in that piece of fiction. The fact that GW2 has trended toward giving leadership and power to many female characters is the vast minority of examples in any form of fantasy media.

 

There's nothing wrong with wanting more male characters you find compelling. It is, however, a major red flag when someone props up female characters as the "obstacle" to male characters. Are you upset when a story or video game has only strong male leaders? Are you upset when a story has a single, token girl on the team? Or none at all?

 

Something tells me the answer is no.

[AliamRationem.5172]

36 minutes ago, Zola.6197 said:

You can go to virtually any other piece of media - book, movie, tv show, video game, and beyond - and in the overwhelming majority of instances, you will only find "Strong Male Characters" in leadership roles. Maybe there will be one female leader that is seen as an anomaly in that piece of fiction. The fact that GW2 has trended toward giving leadership and power to many female characters is the vast minority of examples in any form of fantasy media.

 

There's nothing wrong with wanting more male characters you find compelling. It is, however, a major red flag when someone props up female characters as the "obstacle" to male characters. Are you upset when a story or video game has only strong male leaders? Are you upset when a story has a single, token girl on the team? Or none at all?

 

Something tells me the answer is no.

Does the motive matter in this case?  He's not wrong, is he?  As you say, you can go anywhere else.  But what if where you want to go is right here?  Cringe rhetoric aside, the observation is accurate and the request is reasonable (albeit not its delivery).  The story does lack strong male characters in leadership roles.  In GW2's story male characters are all either comic relief, villains, or subordinates.  Does it have to be so one-sided simply because the opposite is (or once was?) true elsewhere?

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

Im sorry sir or madam but your definition of alpha male is wrong. It doesn't matter what the SJW dictionary says about the word, the expression itself means: 

a man tending to assume a dominant or domineering role in social or professional situations.

 

So the Alpha male is the guardian, the protector, the caregiver, the one willing to sacrifice himself for his group.

 

 

I fail to see how "Guardian, protector, caregiver" fall into "Dominant or domineering role."

 

Infact, Domineering description is such. "asserting one's will over another in an arrogant way." Which... isn't good. It's certainly not the trait of a caregiver or protector."

 

The amusing thing is, why use the term "Alpha male." when "Strong male character." fits just as well and has no negatives that can be assumed from it. Instead of going for a description that has no way to be negatively tied to kitten groups online, you go straight for the term used by the assholes of the internet, the idiots who scream about how they must be Alpha males while also believing there can only be a single alpha in a situation, and that anything else is "beta" and thus terrible.

 

It's understandable others may mistake your viewpoint when you purposefully use a term that has a lot of baggage with it. Or you know, the OP's viewpoint when he literally goes into a ramble about how Rytlock is enslaved and whipped because... he's in a relationship and is doing desk work that is needed instead of out adventuring like he'd prefer.

 

Oh wait, that was you, literally calling Rytlock "Enslaved" and "under the foot of a woman" because "He let her have all the dominance." It's hard to look at your posts about "Alpha Male" and not think you are leaning toward the more crazy online viewpoint instead of "Strong male character."

 

38 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Does the motive matter in this case?  He's not wrong, is he?  As you say, you can go anywhere else.  But what if where you want to go is right here?  Cringe rhetoric aside, the observation is accurate and the request is reasonable (albeit not its delivery).  The story does lack strong male characters in leadership roles.  In GW2's story male characters are all either comic relief, villains, or subordinates.  Does it have to be so one-sided simply because the opposite is (or once was?) true elsewhere?

 

I'd call Rama, Rytlock, Canach, Logan, Gorrik and others to be strong, or fine male characters. I care more about how the characters are written then specific ratios.

 

Amusingly enough, people act as if GW2 has no male leaders. That's explicitly and laughably not true. Logan, Chul Moo, Efram, Phlunt, Ogden, Laranthir, Knut, Koss and Kossan. Off the top of my head alone. Logan being leader of the Pact making him incredibly powerful in terms of armed forces. Rytlock is a strong leader, though he despises paperwork and only does it when absolutely needed.

 

Sometimes we deal with more male characters, sometimes we deal with more female. What matters is the writing.

 

[ugrakarma.9416]

5 hours ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

We need more Canach

The biggest GW2 flaw for me is the game being too much "woke". Let's have a look on what we have:

•  Male friends: Braham (a grumpy kid), Logan (the boring simp), Rytlock (the once good character but got under the foot of a female and now is just a slave of her, and let her take all the dominance spot), Gorrik (funny guy who makes us laugh), Canach (great character but not enough screen time)
• Female friends: Zojja and Eir (both strong and interesting females, carried most of D. Edge for me), Kasmeer (the stunnigly beautiful and very powerful mesmer with girly archetype that we love), Marjory (another smart inteligent and well written female), Taimi (she's way smarter than all asura combined), Joon (great character development, lead and smart). Also, almost all the Leading roles are Female: Queen Jena, the Pale Tree, Crecia, Joon, Aurene, Dessa, Cantha Queen, and so on.

 

When it come to villains, we have the usualy bad man troupe dumb villains, while the females are much more well written, smart and strong, just compare smodur to the smart leader of ash legion, Joko the Clown or the "im bad because i am" trope that almost all male villains have, while with female there's always a reason, always something and sometimes even redemption

 

What i miss in a NPC is a guy that IS an Alpha Male. Strong, dominant, respectful, charming and very caring with a very high sense of protection. A natural leader.

 

Ramma is a very interesting character. I hope he doesn't because a fragile man. I honestly don't know why is not ok to try to be or to have the Good ol' Alpha Male. Its almost like being one of it is an offense to some people. We don't just need Ramma to be good, we need a whole bunch of new male characters that worth enjoying.

the only ones seems not have psychological disorders, psychopathy, or late childhood: Trahearne and Blish, where killed.

Laranthir of Wild gets offscreen, and replaced by Jhavi.

Smoldur, the once "reasonable imperator", was turned into a jerk.

Efram Greetsglory, probably we will never seem him again.

Edited April 9, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I mean, TC isn't wrong about Rytlock.  IBS proved that he is indeed 'whipped' by Crecia, and the xpac cemented it as he's nowhere until the Epilogue.  This is the same charr that chased a sword down into the netherrealm, became a revenant, and for a long time was feared by most characters.  

I think the problem here is too much focus on relationships and intent to pair everyone off.  When they are paired off they seem anything but partners; some like Logan are in servitude to a female because they want to be, some like Canach are literally in servitude for a period of time, and others are in 'fear' of women (Rytlock, Rama to an extent, Gorrik, etc.).   

The only actual 'power couple' and equals are...shocker...Kas and Jory.  I get this is by intent to 'break boundaries' and is neither here nor there for me, but it is pretty obvious.  

I do agree also about the villains being less than serious if male...save for Balthazzar.  They did that one 'right' and I think there we had a strong male, albeit with bad intentions.  

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

On 4/8/2022 at 8:36 PM, KeoLegend.5132 said:

Im sorry sir or madam but your definition of alpha male is wrong. It doesn't matter what the SJW dictionary says about the word, the expression itself means: 

a man tending to assume a dominant or domineering role in social or professional situations.

 

So the Alpha male is the guardian, the protector, the caregiver, the one willing to sacrifice himself for his group. Its nothing what some ppl try to make them look, trying to mix up cha*vinist with alpha male, they are not the same thing.

In short, what the OP wants (i believe at least what I WANT), i a character that is responsible, strong, independent and a great leader, that represent the best a male can be FOR ME (might differ for other individuals, but let's celebrate diversity).

 

in the end, we want the same thing, equality, and you got to agree that we have waaay to many strong female leads and waay too much men with either tons of issues or too goofy and funny. We are missing the serious leader troupe

The male characters we have in this game are mostly based upon real people who work for ArenaNet (many of which are men), and are very much strong and independant and sometimes the entire game world is carried on their shoulders. This is one of the few games I can play where it doesn't feel like the men in it are trying too hard to be men to the point where they seem to be stuck in a low-budget action hero film.

 

Rytlock has been one of my best friends and mentors ever since I made my first Charr in 2013. And I can debunk your entire argument with only two names: Forgal and Tybalt.

 

(Also @Thread, did any of you ever consider the reason women have such prominence in this game is simply because men like women? Why do you think so many guys play female characters..)

Edited April 11, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[AliamRationem.5172]

6 minutes ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

My dear, I'm not an "SJW", and I haven't heard that term used since I was in my 20s, which was over a decade ago. I've seen alot of life and trust me when I say the way you talk only reveals your inexperience.

 

The male characters we have in this game are mostly based upon real people who work for ArenaNet (many of which are men), and are very much strong and independant and sometimes the entire game world is carried on their shoulders. This is one of the few games I can play where it doesn't feel like the men in it are trying too hard to be men to the point where they seem to be stuck in a low-budget action hero film.

 

Rytlock has been one of my best friends and mentors ever since I made my first Charr in 2013. And I can debunk your entire argument with only two names: Forgal and Tybalt.

I'm not looking for Liam Neeson to show up and start rescuing damsels in distress while fending off terrorists and wolves with his bare hands.  But it's not a stretch to observe that the pendulum has swung in a decidedly different direction and appears to have gotten stuck there.  You mention Forgal and Tybalt, for example.  You realize those are characters who died nearly a decade ago?

[Gotejjeken.1267]

8 minutes ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

(Also @Thread, did any of you ever consider the reason women have such prominence in this game is simply because men like women? Why do you think so many guys play female characters..)

 

I believe men make female characters (and I'd assume possibly women make male characters) to make an 'ideal' for themselves.  Essentially the old adage 'well if I'm going to look at it for a thousand hours...'.  

I mean personally I did it a decade ago for pretty much that reason--aesthetic, as I find women attractive.  It also doubles in the context of the entire story revolves around women in power, so when my female commander is barking orders it just seems 'normal' in the GW2 universe.  

But that aside, I'm not sure that's the intent as far as story goes.  Usually 'because men like women' leads to objectification.  Some women don't mind, some do; but GW2 story seems to be putting females in the forefront to combat that.  Which again, personally I don't even know if that's something that needs combating.  Beauty is fine, and 'using what you have' is fine to me as well, male or female. 

[Kalavier.1097]

I wonder if people actually have a complaint when they use "Woke" as a serious term, of if they just can't accept different things. A pity for you.

 

"Ah yes, how dare this character take a break from front line fighting and allow the local officer, who is equally high ranking(and been ingame since day 1), take control of the situation."

[KeoLegend.5132]

8 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

My dear, I'm not an "SJW", and I haven't heard that term used since I was in my 20s, which was over a decade ago. I've seen alot of life and trust me when I say the way you talk only reveals your inexperience.

So you know nothing, because we are have the same age.

 

8 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

 

The male characters we have in this game are mostly based upon real people who work for ArenaNet (many of which are men), and are very much strong and independant and sometimes the entire game world is carried on their shoulders. This is one of the few games I can play where it doesn't feel like the men in it are trying too hard to be men to the point where they seem to be stuck in a low-budget action hero film.

Lol, give me examples. Thats a very bad argument. I gave you thousands of examples and you just based in empiric arguments.

 

8 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

 

Rytlock has been one of my best friends and mentors ever since I made my first Charr in 2013. And I can debunk your entire argument with only two names: Forgal and Tybalt.

Tybalt was very very goofy and weak, which proved to be a strong man only in the end of his life.

 

8 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

 

(Also @Thread, did any of you ever consider the reason women have such prominence in this game is simply because men like women? Why do you think so many guys play female characters..)

What does it has to do with anything?

My mains are females too because i like to look at them, their voice acting, and etc. This doesn't have ANYTHING related to how men are portraited weak, frail or just straight fascist and women as strong inteligent and independant

[Kalavier.1097]

10 minutes ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

Nobody is complaining about Rytlock having to take care of something that doesn't involve slashing creatures for once.

 

That kind of despise to other people's opinnion is very rude, but very expected from braindead progressits that doesn't care about anything that goes on the opposite flow of their agenda.

If you didn't understand the reasoning of the topic maybe its better to just avoid the conversation altogether

 

Nobody is complaining about Rytlock doing his desk job, but you are bitching about him being a "Whipped slave to a woman and giving up all dominance"... because he is doing his desk job and joking about it.

15 hours ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

The biggest GW2 flaw for me is the game being too much "woke". Let's have a look on what we have:

•  Male friends: Braham (a grumpy kid), Logan (the boring simp), Rytlock (the once good character but got under the foot of a female and now is just a slave of her, and let her take all the dominance spot), Gorrik (funny guy who makes us laugh), Canach (great character but not enough screen time)

 

Just to include it. You also laughably describe Logan as a "Simp" which.. ignores the whole aspect of politics preventing Logan and Jennah from being in a relationship and guess what? He's in a new relationship and moved on very kittening fast from it when the relationship he had with Jennah was declared over.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[BobbyT.7192]

18 hours ago, Minjin.8259 said:

I liked Rama...well I did right up until the very end.  Then he reminded me of Logan, unable to tell the girl he likes that he likes her.  Enough with that.  

Maybe kiel will be willing to help turn the boy into a man. 😎