WvW zerg busting is dead

[gitssac.7302]

I know no one at Anet actually cares about WvW balance, but I thought I'd have a whinge about how many of the recent patches (As in like 4 balance patches in as many years 🤣) have killed zerg busting in general.

 

I come from a guild that specifically loves the play style of running a smaller group that's disciplined and hits hard. Once upon a time we as a group of 15 could take on an enemy 50 man group and cut chunks out of them. Much like a surgical tool we could get in, cut out the problem, disengage and reset to do it again. This was honestly the most fun I'd ever had in WvW. Knowing that as a well disciplined player, I could follow specific calls and absolutely ruin a good third of an enemy map queue blob because I bothered to get good at the game mode. It was rewarding to take on outnumbered fights and come out on top a lot of the time.

 

Then Anet nerfed power builds. Sure there was some some busted stuff that needed fixing, but in general it made it difficult to out scale the 'press 1 on medkit' Engi healing that a blob can maintain. I sucked it up though and as a team we could still do some damage and kill a good chunk of people if we tried really hard.

 

Then Anet nerfed the 10 target cap skills that were the bread and butter of our DPS. Other higher target cap skills were also nerfed in general like Scourge shades, etc. This might have limited the maximum amount of burst damage a large group can do, but it also effectively neutered zerg busting groups abilities to do their job. We went from being able to kill the backline of a zerg quickly and effectively, to not being able to kill more than two or three people with the same bombs. That's plenty of time for an omniblob to then turn around and destroy you.

 

I didn't think it could get any worse to be honest, but then some smart cookie realized that 'Rise' reaper and Lich 4 minion spam could be used to soak up so many of the 5 person target cap damage that it essentially makes it impossible to reliably get any damage off onto a person when facing a much larger group. I haven't seen a zerg running in recent weeks that isn't stacked with minions on engage.

 

So what do you guys think Anet should do about this? Not that they will step any of their innovation outside of the 'Gem Store Skins' department, but hey, miracles occasionally happen. I'd love to see a return to the glory days of WvW, with larger target caps, better power builds and more 'risk for reward' types of gameplay. Omniblob pirate ship mesmer pulling is so boring and caters to defaults that don't want to learn how to do anything except press 1 on their keyboard.

 

 

[Xenesis.6389]

🤭

🤷‍♂️

Nothing will be touched.

[gitssac.7302]

2 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

🤭

🤷‍♂️

Nothing will be touched.

I know XD

 

I gave up believing in Anet years ago.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Just saying. We had last Saturday a group of 10 people who DESTROYED our 50 man squad. 

Not sure how but they did ludicrous dmg. 

My Minstrel Guard got hit by 8k Necro Axe 3.

They farmed us like PvE mobs. 

A guild from the FoW/Arborstone link. 

 

[Friday.7864]

Owh, you won't be getting 10 target skills back - servers have a hard time keeping up with those.
They realized it will save them a lot of money in server costs if they reduce all skills to 5 targets max. 

[Dawdler.8521]

TL;DR 50 mans are boonballing as hard as 20 mans because they learned it from them and now the 20 mans take offense to that because they can no longer boonball with ease against groups that doesnt.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[The Boz.2038]

It's just maths.
Being fewer in number offers you no advantages. No strategies you can employ that scale better the fewer of you are there. You could hit ten of them? They could hit ten of you. You can use minions to absorb hits? They can use minions to absorb hits. You can boon rip in AoE? They can boon rip in AoE. None of these things works better if there's more of the enemy than of you.

[gitssac.7302]

All I'm saying is I'd rather fight as a small group that triumphs over the bigger group because the smaller group has the tools to do so, rather than sit in a 70 man Indo blob and press 1 on the 3 people that got mesmer pulled.

[Mabi black.1824]

8 minutes ago, gitssac.7302 said:

All I'm saying is I'd rather fight as a small group that triumphs over the bigger group because the smaller group has the tools to do so, rather than sit in a 70 man Indo blob and press 1 on the 3 people that got mesmer pulled.

probably as the boz wrote the characteristics / statistics of the players' skills are the same for everyone. of expecting that what you build with your team can do in the same way as your opponent.

with this awareness you can still have fun, of course you will have to work much more concentrated and engaged, of course you can only wear it out by taking the tail of the enemy group, try to separate it in some parts, if you are lucky you can collaborate with another small team if you are lucky enough to have it on the map etc etc.

the numbers in this game mode are important, so if your outnumbered team will not have impossible pretensions (rambo style) it still has many ways to have fun.

[Junkpile.7439]

I usually solo zergbust

[Sahne.6950]

47 minutes ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

I usually solo zergbust

yeah same here! I am using this insane "Oneshot-bunker-condicheese-build" that everyone is talking about.

[The Boz.2038]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

yeah same here! I am using this insane "Oneshot-bunker-condicheese-build" that everyone is talking about.

Is that the instant 1-tick15k burn harbinger autoattack build?

[Hollowhisper.1093]

We have full zergs of Rangers in full Shaman gear doing Crippled Shots only. At least that irritates the kitten out of our enemies.😆

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

6 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

yeah same here! I am using this insane "Oneshot-bunker-condicheese-build" that everyone is talking about.

you guys are those who die 50 times to kill 1 guy off a zerg...

 

there's nothing that can solo harm a well comp'd zerg of 30-35 unless another zerg or a good guild of 15+

 

the cloud just feed them usually for hours, desperately trying to get downs. the only way a cloud can get kills, is if the zerg is slow or has a medicore lead, so good players within the cloud on meta-dps builds manage to spike and generate downed

 

@gitssac.7302

nah, zergbusting with smaller groups is still very possible. but u need at least 15 people and they need to know their stuff + have a good com + be on voice

thats when the metabuilds really shine, if they're played on a high level.

20 people can destroy 40, it just won't be a brainless W key action. u need several bombs and outmanouvering, and u shouldn't lose anyone during it.

sadly, most people are too casual to learn this playstyle ever. and not a lot of guilds can still provide the necessary knowledge for it

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by kamikharzeeh.8016

[Telgum.6071]

12 hours ago, gitssac.7302 said:

Once upon a time we as a group of 15 could take on an enemy 50 man group and cut chunks out of them. Much like a surgical tool we could get in, cut out the problem, disengage and reset to do it again

This is extremely unrealistic. Not saying you are lying, but there are servers with strong guilds and servers with karma trains. If you ever won a 15vs50 fight, it's because either you killed the commander on the very first strike or because the big group was extremely bad. 

You can still do those two things up to this day regardless of the balance, but if you don't outnumber and neither outskill the enemy, you can't expect to have the same experiences you had when crushing noobs and karma trains.

[KeoLegend.5132]

thats sad

[kash.9213]

Alert Target going down a kill order list and thin out key support, confirming downs, and their composition should be stressed. There's going to be a little inertia when you drag out of holding the pace towards moments of intensity or pressure, but if your group can capitalize on the moments where their side starts to cascade because their comp is top heavy then you should be able to still clean up. Pugs can do it if they're mostly the regular floaters but if you have too many pugs or guildies who aren't alert or have instinct and think ahead then you'll just be offering up rez bots. 

Try to pressure when they're scrambling after a composition loss or two and better yet if you make a mess on another corner or side from their drive so they can't mitigate with ease. Numbers matter but you can throw stuff that bounces and spreads, and if your side moves like wild dog packs so that you're avoiding and mitigating more than they are, you can drag and turn their facing like a raid boss with adds until they can't course correct when your side pressures any more and they bail out of your keep. 

I'm speaking as a pug though so I can't say I know what a guild group should do. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by kash.9213

[Xenesis.6389]

Zerg busting is still alive, just recruit 20 more people to get around the target cap.... and minion spam... or better yet recruit 20 necros to minion spam them back.

[subversiontwo.7501]

There's not much to add to this thread that hasn't been said since the last time the topic appeared.

Not to sound too smug or anything here, but this 10-years of progress and how pickups or casual guilds of today would be better or be more adapted than early on, I just don't see it.

I think the meta is extremely stagnant and as a result the common content is easily as far behind (or worse, given the low ambition) as it was in the past.

If I look at my main account's server today I think most 25-ish raiders would get beat by my raiding guild from 2012. If I look at most long-standing traditional 25-ish guilds I don't see them improving as much over 10 years as there is simply less competition in their slice now.

Things rather appear as they do because the years of guild-neglect has made good groups quit, isolate or scarce in other ways more than in the past. It is always hard to determine who people speak about when they complain about groups and guilds here. Like, for example, these boonballs people complain about is something I associate with casual, newer or weaker groups. The guilds that stack, stealth, push and tank (sometimes on condi comps). However, much of that has to do with whatever they are commonly fighting have no idea how to set up their groups, use their tools, focus their damage, balance their builds and comps or execute rather simple manoeuvres like revealing them when they stack-stealth right in front of them. That is easily counterable and those groups still get absolutely obliterated when they come across something ambitious and dedicated.

The only thing I can say about zerg busters is that there is definitely fewer players or groups engaging in it now, but to me that just goes back to the same thing of years of guild-neglect making guilds quit or simply choose not to aspire to it, rather than the potential or possibility of doing it. That is par for the course on this forum. People do not speak about potential as they can not root their arguments in concrete game data. I've even posted examples and people still think it is myth 👻.

Good solos can still beat bad small-groups (~5), as easily as good small-groups can beat bad medium-groups (~15) and good medium-groups can beat bad larger groups (~25) or good larger groups can beat pickups (~50). That hasn't really changed. There are just fewer of each, especially each "good" group as ambitions are low for everyone due to the state of the mode and we congregate and segregate in different ways (on servers, in EotM, on maps, etc.).

Edited April 14, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

idk seems pretty much possible

[Cuks.8241]

I dont know. It still sounds more of a skill difference than balance issue. This whole killing the back line sounds a bit fishy to me, this shouldn't really happen. Any decent guild will keep track of your group and mark you so they will know when to expect you or your stealth moves.

On the other hand I play in a mediocre guild. We are decent but we get destroyed by the good guilds even if we outnumber them. On the other hand we can destroy the bad guilds. Hey there are certain guilds I wont name on a server I wont name that can come all at once at us and they wont dent us (tested recently plenty in practice). The best guilds can do it with less people than we can. I didnt notice this changing much with any balance patch. It really comes down to skill, experience, good composition, coordination. 

[Kozumi.5816]

12 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

It's just maths.
Being fewer in number offers you no advantages. No strategies you can employ that scale better the fewer of you are there. You could hit ten of them? They could hit ten of you. You can use minions to absorb hits? They can use minions to absorb hits. You can boon rip in AoE? They can boon rip in AoE. None of these things works better if there's more of the enemy than of you.

No other RvR game has this design. In DAoC 8 people could take on 40+.

[subversiontwo.7501]

26 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

No other RvR game has this design. In DAoC 8 people could take on 40+.

It looks to me like 8 Ovalkvadratcylinders could take out 40+ 😋

[Gerrick.7489]

Maybe all the elite groups stomping on the noobs caused all the noobs to leave? 😁

[subversiontwo.7501]

4 minutes ago, Gerrick.7489 said:

Maybe all the elite groups stomping on the noobs caused all the noobs to leave? 😁

That comment would be funny if it wasn't so obviously answered by just entering WvW 🤣.