A Conspicuous Trend Among GW2's Cast of Characters *Spoilers*

[TheLadyOfTheRings.9148]

2 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Which is a very simplistic way to look at it because there are "obvious disadvantages" the other way around too (like say 4 times higher suicide rates among men than women) and said progressives rarely make "strong women" stand on their own like was done in the past in movies/comics/etc they just make women with male attributes that has to be validated by intentionally feminized men as being awesome.

Again I dont really see anything bad with GW2 but sometimes theres just a few... awkward... things. Even the very first mission in cantha has a "sorry did you just assume my..." moment where as a Norn you are written to appear offended by the fisherman asking if all Norns are as tall and big as you. Well duh. The characters response doesnt make sense. Its like... Yes? Taller than humans, yes the entire race. We're not the *exact* same height, but why the kitten would I even answer that when the dude never met a Norn before. It literally felt like I was being rude for no reason.

Anyway this thread isnt going to end well (like all the others on the subject, its not really for GW2 forums) so I'll just step outside, lol.

Yeah I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is, as I don't even think that are more important/influential females than males in GW2, and if there are is by a slight margin.

[aceofbass.2163]

Firstly,

On 4/24/2022 at 2:20 PM, LuckyThirteen.4576 said:

Eir: I actually don't have a huge problem with Eir, though find it weird that everyone is just ok with her admitting how terrible a mother she was. 

I really REALLY like Eir. She's a great norn hunter and a great woman. But she is not without flaws and is not afraid of admitting it. That's why I really like her. She also never leaves her past mistakes to just go by, she tries to correct all of her mistakes even if sometimes she is not successful to do so a.k.a. getting impaled. All of this, without being arrogant too. Total opposite of some canthan genius that we knew later on 🙄

 

That's why in the words of Will Smith. "keep my favorite norn's name out your f*** mouth" 😁

On 4/24/2022 at 2:20 PM, LuckyThirteen.4576 said:

Rox: Who?

Oh Roxy. Her life was so bland that in the reunion her only contribution was "I have a boyfriend now" 😆

 

Back to the point.

Yes I agree with you on this one. Whenever a male is a bad guy, they are always irredeemably disney villain archetypes. But same can't be said for the other side. 

Notice too all the "bad dragons" are guys and the "good dragons" are women.

Also, I noticed that in these encounters sometimes when a female is correct(undoubtably correct at that), they are the most screamish in your face i'm right you're wrong type of people. 

Some example at the top of my head:

Gang War at Echovald

Kestrel Zuru was a closed minded traditional old man. He was disagreeing with all of what Kestrel Ayumi has to say. In the end, when they successfully defeated the mech, Zuru was proven wrong. Zuru was due in for an apology when suddenly - Ariana blurts out and yells YOU'RE AN kitten. I mean everything was already going nicely and conversations were settling down then  this Ariana swoops in and ruin the mood by being the center of attention hey I was right and he was wrong guys! She kinda reminds me of Meena from Sing in a way.

 

Not even the Ayumi who was more affected by Zuru did not say anything like that. I like Ayumi, she's level headed all the way.

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by aceofbass.2163

[TheLadyOfTheRings.9148]

6 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Which is a very simplistic way to look at it because there are "obvious disadvantages" the other way around too (like say 4 times higher suicide rates among men than women) 

TRIGGER WARNING

This thread is about powerful and influential figures (not suicide rate), and in this area women are at a disadvantage in real life. 

[Narcemus.1348]

I don't know why, but I feel like a list of important figures of Guild Wars 2 would help shed some light on things, though I will admit to not remember every fact of the game and there are gaps in my knowledge. I don't have an agenda and don't desire to push any one direction, so here we go. This list is current leaders only and only currently existing groups.

 

World Leaders

Krytan Leadership

Queen - Queen Jennah

Legate Minister - Minister Wi

Master Exemplar - Countess Anise

Seraph Leader - Queen Jennah

 

Charr Leadership

Ash Legion Imperator - Malice Swordshadow

Flame Legion Imperator - Efram Greetsglory

Iron Legion Imperator - Mia Kindleshot

Blood Legion Imperator - Crecia Stoneglow

 

Asuran Leadership

Arcane Council - High Councilor Flax

Inquest - Muat (Unverified)

 

Sylvari Leadership

Mother - Pale Tree

Luminary of Dawn - Aife

Luminary of Noon - Naimh

Luminary of Dusk - Kahedins

Luminary of Night - Malomedies

Nightmare Court - Duchess Chrysanthea (Unverified)

 

Hoelbrak Leadership

Leader - Knut Whitebear

Wolfborn - Sigfast & Skarti

Speaker for Raven - Moda the Quick

Speaker for Wolf - Fastulf Jotharsson

Speaker for Bear - Alarrin of the Frost

Speaker for Snow Leopard - Valharantha

 

Elonian Leadership

Sunspears - Spearmarshal Zaeim

Loyalists - Grand Vizier Utumishi

Free Awakened - Sianna (Unverified)

 

Canthan Leadership

Empress - Impress Ihn

Ministry of Security - Minister Min

Ministry of Archives - Minister Preeda

 

The Pact

Marshal - Logan Thackery

Durmand Priory - Steward Gixx

Vigil - General Jhavi Jorasdottir (Unverified)

Order of Whispers - Reil Darkwater

Important Figures

The Six - Dwayna

The Elder Dragons - Aurene

The Exalted - Luminate

The Itzel - Miatli

The Nuhoch - Pahua

I'm sure there's more that could be included, but I was attempting to only include the higher ranks of organizations. Feel free to let me know any mistakes and I will gladly edit. 😁

Edited April 26, 2022 by Narcemus.1348
Making Adjustment by Request

[ugrakarma.9416]

3 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Which is a very simplistic way to look at it because there are "obvious disadvantages" the other way around too (like say 4 times higher suicide rates among men than women) and said progressives rarely make "strong women" stand on their own like was done in the past in movies/comics/etc they just make women with male attributes that has to be validated by intentionally feminized men as being awesome.

Again I dont really see anything bad with GW2 but sometimes theres just a few... awkward... things. Even the very first mission in cantha has a "sorry did you just assume my..." moment where as a Norn you are written to appear offended by the fisherman asking if all Norns are as tall and big as you. Well duh. The characters response doesnt make sense. Its like... Yes? Taller than humans, yes the entire race. We're not the *exact* same height, but why the kitten would I even answer that when the dude never met a Norn before. It literally felt like I was being rude for no reason.

Anyway this thread isnt going to end well (like all the others on the subject, its not really for GW2 forums) so I'll just step outside, lol.

Also the all progressive garbage is just smoke and mirrors.

 

How to make a BigTech mogul(joon) who is the sister(nepotism) of the ruling power (the queen), look like someone good? Switch genders!

[TheLadyOfTheRings.9148]

I also think a lot of people automatically assume a strong female character is introduced only for the sake of having a strong female character. Which can totally happen in bad storytelling, but I don't think that's the case with GW2.

I'll use Joon as an example. Can't she just be a character who's strong and a natural inventor and leader who happens to be female? Can't she be there because she's actually important and influential and not just because she's meant to fill in a gender gap?

I feel like a lot of people have to justify why female characters would be in those positions and even outnumber males (again, I don't think that's the case in GW2), as if their achievements in the story are somehow not enough. 

I also think if we had a few more strong males than females, this thread wouldn't have been created in the first place. 

 

[Aodlop.1907]

11 hours ago, Ultramex.1506 said:

What exactly is " immersion breaking." on the skiff? Was it because he make 1 joke about going into tunnel of love?

This bit of dialogue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVBSHYeh7_Q&t=680s

Open borders blah blah blah, society can change, blah blah blah, and of course the evil, anti-immigration extremists are the "white" falcons. 

Because of course they are.

 

[ugrakarma.9416]

1 hour ago, TheLadyOfTheRings.9148 said:

I also think if we had a few more strong males than females, this thread wouldn't have been created in the first place. 

 

Before the EoD we had strong both female and male in every history piece, and rarely someone complained.

But the complaints are becoming so common(almost 1 every week) so theres really something out of place, than a mere isolated overreaction.

Personally i become "aware" since the gods plot, was kinda weird one by one, all 'evils gods' was to be male, with exception of Grenth. But i never posted about it, because i really don't care much.

Edited April 25, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

6 hours ago, Narcemus.1348 said:

 I'm sure there's more that could be included, but I was attempting to only include the higher ranks of organizations. Feel free to let me know any mistakes and I will gladly edit. 😁

As you request:

Quote

Seraph Leader - Queen Jennah (no longer Logan)

 

Inquest - Unknown

 

Nightmare Court - Unknown

 

Free Awakened - ?

 

Vigil - General Jhavi Jorasdottir

• Logan never lead the Seraph, it was always Jennah.
• Inquest possibly led by Maut.
• Nightmare probably led by Duchess Chrysanthea.
• Free Awakened seemingly led by Sianna.
• Vigil led by Laranthir, not Jhavi.

Also worth adding:

• Leader of the Six: Dwayna
• Leader of the Elder Dragons: Soo-Won
• Exalted: Luminate
• Itzel: Miatli
• Nuhoch: Pahua

9 hours ago, TheLadyOfTheRings.9148 said:

TRIGGER WARNING

An apt description of this thread.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Witch of Doom.5739]

Not related per se, but interesting to note -- of The Six, four are female and two are male.  Was there ever a complaint before that it wasn't 50/50?  Genuinely asking.  I think this is a good discussion thread.

[ugrakarma.9416]

1 hour ago, Witch of Doom.5739 said:

Not related per se, but interesting to note -- of The Six, four are female and two are male.  Was there ever a complaint before that it wasn't 50/50?  Genuinely asking.  I think this is a good discussion thread.

Never was, even with Balthazar demise leaving only grenth as male god. if someone pointed that on lore forums, wans't relevant enough to start a lengthen discussion.

This hint thats really a problem in EoD, only after EoD ppl started highlight this, ppl started pointing out things that no one cared or hadn't noticed.

Playing devil's advocate: the point many is missing, is that there was the return of the LS1 on the table and they probably thought that Scarlet was too much(and it was very unpopular character, as 'crazy woman' vilain), then i bet they decided left Eod with more "good females".

Edited April 26, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, Witch of Doom.5739 said:

Not related per se, but interesting to note -- of The Six, four are female and two are male.  Was there ever a complaint before that it wasn't 50/50?  Genuinely asking.  I think this is a good discussion thread.

Yeah it got brought up now and then, but never gained attention unlike these threads, because it started out as 3/2 and then 3/3 before going 4/3.

1 hour ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

Never was, even with Balthazar demise leaving only grenth as male god. if someone pointed that on lore forums, wans't relevant enough to start a lengthen discussion.

This hint thats really a problem in EoD, only after EoD ppl started highlight this, ppl started pointing out things that no one cared or hadn't noticed.

Playing devil's advocate: the point many is missing, is that there was the return of the LS1 on the table and they probably thought that Scarlat was too much(and was very unpopular character), as 'crazy woman' vilain, then decided left Eod with "good females".

Also different cultural climate now than 5 years ago, let alone 15. The internet in general is a bit more sensitive to these things nowadays than back then.

[voltaicbore.8012]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Also different cultural climate now than 5 years ago, let alone 15. The internet in general is a bit more sensitive to these things nowadays than back then.

This is probably true, but also I believe the game's narrative makes objectively more noticeable effort now to push these elements closer to the forefront.  I always like to remind folks that we already had an audible gender-change conversation in LA, long before it was this politically expedient to do such things. ANet was quite openly woke before it was the cool thing to do, and I respect them for that.

It's just that instead of being just a conversation you can overhear between two NPCs, you now have stuff like story Yao's pronoun being pretty noticeable (and meta Yao referring to themselves as a "friendly local agender engineer"). Someone already mentioned the "did you just assume-" moment Norn characters get, and I'm sure there are other such politics-of-the-day references too if I cared to go back and catalog them.

So yes, while the current political climate has increased general sensitivity to such issues, I think it's also true the game has also pushed a higher volume of such things to the forefront. As a note, I always exclude Kas & Jory from such accounting, because I feel their narrative is generally on point. They're a couple, I don't recall anyone making a stink about their same-gender status, and nobody really gets preachy about that aspect of their relationship. I feel that was done much better than the sort of mild point-and-stare attitude EoD occasionally demonstrates about progressive features.

The core game had politics too, but that was actually Tyrian stuff. Asura thinking everyone else are idiots, Charr calling everyone else various levels of mice, the stupid human Dwayna's Witness in Hoelbrak talking about all the Spirits of the WIld being subsidiaries of Melandru, etc. I find that much more interesting than grafting our world's politics directly into the game.

Edited April 26, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[Ashantara.8731]

It's sad that this is an issue for you. Instead of gender you should put your focus on the character (like, for instane, that Joon has megalomaniacal tendencies and Li is a racist nationalist, so neither is particularly likeable).

Also, after centuries of male dominance in leading roles (in fiction as well as in real life), don't women deserve this kind of recognition?

Get over it.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

6 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

Before the EoD we had strong both female and male in every history piece, and rarely someone complained.

But the complaints are becoming so common(almost 1 every week) so theres really something out of place, than a mere isolated overreaction.

Personally i become "aware" since the gods plot, was kinda weird one by one, all 'evils gods' was to be male, with exception of Grenth. But i never posted about it, because i really don't care much.

There is no God more evil then Kormir. 

And last time I checked (and you can check in PoF 😏) she's a woman. 

(please don't take is serious guys) 

[Ultramex.1506]

9 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

This bit of dialogue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVBSHYeh7_Q&t=680s

Open borders blah blah blah, society can change, blah blah blah, and of course the evil, anti-immigration extremists are the "white" falcons. 

Because of course they are.

 

Meh, I expected that much from re-opening border after years of isolation, part of world building

[Ultramex.1506]

12 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

This is probably true, but also I believe the game's narrative makes objectively more noticeable effort now to push these elements closer to the forefront.  I always like to remind folks that we already had an audible gender-change conversation in LA, long before it was this politically expedient to do such things. ANet was quite openly woke before it was the cool thing to do, and I respect them for that.

It's just that instead of being just a conversation you can overhear between two NPCs, you now have stuff like story Yao's pronoun being pretty noticeable (and meta Yao referring to themselves as a "friendly local agender engineer"). Someone already mentioned the "did you just assume-" moment Norn characters get, and I'm sure there are other such politics-of-the-day references too if I cared to go back and catalog them.

So yes, while the current political climate has increased general sensitivity to such issues, I think it's also true the game has also pushed a higher volume of such things to the forefront. As a note, I always exclude Kas & Jory from such accounting, because I feel their narrative is generally on point. They're a couple, I don't recall anyone making a stink about their same-gender status, and nobody really gets preachy about that aspect of their relationship. I feel that was done much better than the sort of mild point-and-stare attitude EoD occasionally demonstrates about progressive features.

The core game had politics too, but that was actually Tyrian stuff. Asura thinking everyone else are idiots, Charr calling everyone else various levels of mice, the stupid human Dwayna's Witness in Hoelbrak talking about all the Spirits of the WIld being subsidiaries of Melandru, etc. I find that much more interesting than grafting our world's politics directly into the game.

Never see nor have problem wih Yao since the story don't "beat around the bush" nor "down your troat", the heart npc that you talked to said "they" but that is

Though I have problem with Norn acting aggressive to the boatman, like.....Cantha has been isolated for many years and Norn is like myth to them so seeing 1 spark curiosity, why that response?! Charr is understandable since we are being compared to pet cat.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Ultramex.1506

[LuckyThirteen.4576]

2 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

It's sad that this is an issue for you. Instead of gender you should put your focus on the character (like, for instane, that Joon has megalomaniacal tendencies and Li is a racist nationalist, so neither is particularly likeable).

Also, after centuries of male dominance in leading roles (in fiction as well as in real life), don't women deserve this kind of recognition?

Get over it.

 

I don't see the need to take jabs at me personally, I'm thrilled that we've actually had this much positive interaction on the topic. Actually, I feel like you're kind for making my point for me. You remark that neither Joon or Li are particularly likeable, which I agree with; but my point was that if this was the case, why does Joon get to be a hero while Li is portrayed exclusively as a villain?

Also, I don't really see why history need play a factor at all, I was simply remarking that the story that was presented feels unbalanced in a noticeable way. 

Edited April 26, 2022 by LuckyThirteen.4576
I removed a comma.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

3 hours ago, LuckyThirteen.4576 said:

 

I don't see the need to take jabs at me personally, I'm thrilled that we've actually had this much positive interaction on the topic. Actually, I feel like you're kind for making my point for me. You remark that neither Joon or Li are particularly likeable, which I agree with; but my point was that if this was the case, why does Joon get to be a hero while Li is portrayed exclusively as a villain?

Also, I don't really see why history need play a factor at all, I was simply remarking that the story that was presented feels unbalanced in a noticeable way. 

With Li and Joon I think it's just a case of Li's goals fundamentally come into conflict with the player's while Joon is only briefly antagonistic because of a disagreement on how to carry out the same goal. Being likable or not doesn't really come into play there. 

[Ashantara.8731]

4 hours ago, LuckyThirteen.4576 said:

I don't see the need to take jabs at me personally,

I didn't mean to. I was "taking jabs" at your stance, not at you personally. (Okay, the last sentence in my previous reponse was emotional and unnecessary and could be interpreted as a personal attack, so my sincere apology for that.)

It's just plain bigotry to complain about "female dominance" while, at the same time, not complaining about the male dominance in hundreds of years of human history.

Why can The Lord of the Rings be okay with basically only male characters in the whole story, but GW2 is twisting your knickers because its latest expansion dared to have more female characters in leading roles?

Also, your assessment of some of the male characters that have been part of GW2 for almost a decade sounds like you had been looking at them through rose-colored glasses. Example: Rytlock was never what you claim him to be, he's always been an annoying whiner and mostly unlikeable character to me (for instance, the things he said to Logan during their personal story quarrel were 100% immature, not a character one can take for a serious adult, especially not for a high-ranked charr of some esteem).

Edited April 26, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[The Greyhawk.9107]

 

33 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I didn't mean to. I was "taking jabs" at your stance, not at you personally. (Okay, the last sentence in my previous reponse was unnecessary, my apology for that.)

It's just plain bigotry to complain about "female dominance" while, at the same time, not complaining about the male dominance in hundreds of years of human history.

Why can The Lord of the Rings be okay with basically only male characters in the whole story, but GW2 twisting your knickers because its latest expansion dared to have more female characters in (supposedly) heroic roles?

Also, your assessment of some of the male characters that have been part of GW2 for almost a decade sounds like you had been looking at them through pink glasses. Example: Rytlock was never what you claim him to be, he's always been an annoying whiner and mostly unlikeable character to me (for instance, the things he said to Logan during their personal story quarrel were 100% immature, not a character one can take for a serious adult, especially not for a high-ranked charr).

*cough* *cough* Arwen, Eowyn, and Galadriel.

Anyways, I think I'll pass actually pass on taking part in this discussion since it seems I missed my chance while things were still amiable.  I'll just say that I do kinda see where OP is coming from and that he/she/ze might have a point and leave it at that. 

[Aodlop.1907]

5 hours ago, Ultramex.1506 said:

Meh, I expected that much from re-opening border after years of isolation, part of world building

Of course there would be people opposed to immigration in such a context.

But when you decide to name them the "white" falcon, and you choose to portray what could be considered a fairly reasonable stance as purely bigoted and rooted in hatred, then your political bias starts to show a little bit.

[Narcemus.1348]

14 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

As you request:

• Logan never lead the Seraph, it was always Jennah.
• Inquest possibly led by Maut.
• Nightmare probably led by Duchess Chrysanthea.
• Free Awakened seemingly led by Sianna.
• Vigil led by Laranthir, not Jhavi.

Also worth adding:

• Leader of the Six: Dwayna
• Leader of the Elder Dragons: Soo-Won
• Exalted: Luminate
• Itzel: Miatli
• Nuhoch: Pahua

An apt description of this thread.

I was intentionally leaving out past leaders (aka Soo Won) and unverified (Sianna, Muat, and Crysanthea). Also while Jennah was always in charge of the seraph, According to the wiki Logan had been given command of the seraph in her stead because of her political obligations. Also, it is noted on the wiki that Jhavi was in charge of the Vigil in the aftermath of Almorra's death. I will gladly change these things if they are verified or I'm shown to be wrong. I will try to include the Gods and other people of import as well in my edit.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

1 hour ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

Of course there would be people opposed to immigration in such a context.

But when you decide to name them the "white" falcon, and you choose to portray what could be considered a fairly reasonable stance as purely bigoted and rooted in hatred, then your political bias starts to show a little bit.

Being against immigrants is one thing but we talk about a group of people who get a 20 inch pp when thinking about genocide. 

Being conservative is one thing but being a literal nazzi is a whole other level. 

And that's what the purists are. 

 

And maybe, just maybe it's a good idea to teach people that nazzis = bad and that we should everything we can to fight such people. 

(Man the word filter is harsh) 

Edited April 26, 2022 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Aodlop.1907]

53 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Being against immigrants is one thing but we talk about a group of people who get a 20 inch pp when thinking about genocide. 

Being conservative is one thing but being a literal nazzi is a whole other level. 

And that's what the purists are. 

Which is exactly my point.

They could have approached the idea of opposing immigration in a balanced and nuanced way, but instead, they chose to go with the racist genocidal maniac route.

This is precisely what is problematic with this storyline.