Meta Boons over-exploited,

[Asum.4960]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It would have been that way if Anet wasn't balancing more and more content around that very permaavailability of all relevant boons. And if boons offered a much smaller boost to effectiveness. Then there would indeed be a choice to be had. Now you have a "choice" to either adapt, or "you don't have to actually play that content, it's optional".

How though? What are the altenatives?

Anet reduces boon availability with the intent to be only available for burst phases - Players stack the profession or build that does grant them the most in order to extend the duration as close to permanent as possible, vastly reducing variety (we have already been there with Guard/Mesmer stacking).

Anet reduces boon efficacy while keeping them worthwhile to bring - nothing changes, players will still want perma uptimes of them.

Anet reduces boon efficacy making them worth less to bring than the DPS that's sacrificed for it - boons might as well not exist, game loses complexity, gains a mountain of dead skills and Traits.

Anet balances content around not having (perma) boons - players still expect them to be there and completely invalidate the content with them. 

 

As I see it, Anet had two options here. Turn boons into a non-mechanic by nerfing them to a point where they are not worth bringing anymore, having to vastly rework the game - or embrace the boon providers as dedicated roles and balance group content around them, while trying to work toward more variety and flexibility for those providers.

Anet chose option 2. 

 

Is there theoretically a perfect point where boons are good enough to want to have them, but just barely to a point where it's not a big deal to not have them, and that being balanced with all professions, especs, Traits and weapons - tailoring the sacrifices made to provide boons perfectly to that point? Probably. It's also probably impossible to get even close to that point in a game this big and complex.

In any case, maintaining anything even close to that would require vastly more frequent and larger balance patches than Anet is obviously capable of.

 

Personally I think Anet chose correctly with their current path given the context - the only big misstep along the way they imo made is making all these boon applications unthematic and uninteresting, through just single button presses or passive auras, etc. 

I don't think every Profession in theory having the option to provide every boon, and all boons being expected, is the core problem (or rather it's kind of a necessary evil if we want variety). It's that it done in an uninteresting way for the sake of it - while unique application of those boons as well as other unique tools that could be layered on top of the boon system to still distinguish the professions (be it things like Stealth, Portals or Epidemic) are left behind in relevance for the content or dying in the crossfire.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Astralporing.1957]

53 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

How though? What are the altenatives?

Anet reduces boon availability with the intent to be only available for burst phases - Players stack the profession or build that does grant them the most in order to extend the duration as close to permanent as possible, vastly reducing variety (we have already been there with Guard/Mesmer stacking).

Yes. That's why that option is not really all that good.

53 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Anet reduces boon efficacy while keeping them worthwhile to bring - nothing changes, players will still want perma uptimes of them.

In that later case, having the boons is good, and most perfectly optimized groups will want it, but not having them, for more casually minded players will not be that much of an issue.

At this point, the boons are so good they are plactically required for any content that is not balanced around the lowest common denominator. In such content, they practically cannot be skipped (and if they can, it's only by players that would be pushing the envelope, and will insist on those anyway)

53 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Anet reduces boon efficacy making them worth less to bring than the DPS that's sacrificed for it - boons might as well not exist, game loses complexity, gains a mountain of dead skills and Traits.

The key is to make them be beneficial, but not to the point where they are a necessary fixture. Where people can say "oh, we didn't find any support yet - do you want to wait more in hope someone will show up, or just have a go at it, and we'll have to work a  little bit harder?". And where the answer to that question is not immediately obvious to most players, the way it is now.

53 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Anet balances content around not having (perma) boons - players still expect them to be there and completely invalidate the content with them. 

If boons are not as impactful as they are now, with them you will have it a bit easier, but won't be automatically invalidate anything.

53 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

As I see it, Anet had two options here. Turn boons into a non-mechanic by nerfing them to a point where they are not worth bringing anymore, having to vastly rework the game - or embrace the boon providers as dedicated roles and balance group content around them, while trying to work toward more variety and flexibility for those providers.

Anet chose option 2. 

They didn't. They chose option 3: try to push boons on everyone. Whether they like it or not.

[dace.8019]

To clarify, I'm not really opposed to meta comps exploiting these boons. I play in these groups daily. I've been running a QHFB since PoF: I have been eating the same cheese as most of you, much of it happily so. But I guess I'm just fatigued by the way we're reducing specs/professions and compositions of groups down to these two boons. We don't have to, it's just quicker and easier to do so. Imagine endgame content. Now think about the squad you assemble for it. I will now read your mind. You want a healer, a source of alac, a source of quick and whatever the best dps is right now for the rest.

 

There's no depth. It's just "get the boons and faceroll the content". For a game with so many interesting pieces to it, this is all it's come down to. Instanced content right now is almost as casual as open world stuff - it just throws in a couple of mechanics. The player expression is still there in small pockets, whether it's in those mechanics or otherwise, but it feels under catered to. Professions/specs join your group and you see them through the lens of the boons they bring not the cool stuff they can add - with only a small handful of exceptions. 

[Mrs Lana.2506]

57 minutes ago, dace.8019 said:

you see them through the lens of the boons they bring not the cool stuff they can add

"Cool stuff they can add"

....like boons?

[Ombras.2853]

Eh? So you want… what, exactly?

 

1 minute ago, Miss Lana.5276 said:

"Cool stuff they can add"

....like boons?

 

This, in short.

Yes.

[daesz.2439]

kitten idea, not sure if you are trolling or yes.

First of all, we have multiple classes that able to provide these boons. 2nd - lets jsut increase CC by 10% and remove fury, power/condi by 500 and remove stacks of might, give every1 perma resist to first CC which has cd 10s and remove stab, etc.
Thats not a casual game, and its already simplified compared to many other MMO in terms of food, oil, etc.

Last, but not least. 80% of player base already gets bullied in pvp/wvw without inscreased activation speed and decreased CD. With these changes pvp/wvw will die completely.

[mindcircus.1506]

2 hours ago, dace.8019 said:

There's no depth. It's just "get the boons and faceroll the content".

Your suggestions to just give the effects of the boons to everyone without any meaningful tradeoffs or gameplay runs counter to this complaint.
"Just make the effects baseline" removes what little depth there is.

[Asum.4960]

3 hours ago, dace.8019 said:

To clarify, I'm not really opposed to meta comps exploiting these boons. I play in these groups daily. I've been running a QHFB since PoF: I have been eating the same cheese as most of you, much of it happily so. But I guess I'm just fatigued by the way we're reducing specs/professions and compositions of groups down to these two boons. We don't have to, it's just quicker and easier to do so. Imagine endgame content. Now think about the squad you assemble for it. I will now read your mind. You want a healer, a source of alac, a source of quick and whatever the best dps is right now for the rest.

 

There's no depth. It's just "get the boons and faceroll the content". For a game with so many interesting pieces to it, this is all it's come down to. Instanced content right now is almost as casual as open world stuff - it just throws in a couple of mechanics. The player expression is still there in small pockets, whether it's in those mechanics or otherwise, but it feels under catered to. Professions/specs join your group and you see them through the lens of the boons they bring not the cool stuff they can add - with only a small handful of exceptions. 

When was that not the case though?

It just went from the godhood of Chrono to FB+Renegade to now a more general Quick+Alac. 

These boons where always expected, always formed a cornerstone in what player looked for. All that changed is that we now have more variety and accessibility in how to make it happen. 

 

I can see where you are coming from in the sense that how Anet added these boons to other specs was largely pretty boring and unthematic so far, as well as unique profession tools and roles falling to the wayside, which is unfortunate. 

But when it comes to the boon situation itself, imo this is a far better situation than the boon monopolies we had before, resulting in incredibly stale and rigid comps (I can still hear the Chrono Wells ringing in my ears).

Edited April 25, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Winter.3504]

I don't post in the forums, but this thread made me want to weigh in, because I play Support/Healer (QFB and Alac Renegade) primarily, even in open world content because I have fun with the builds.

 

A few things have already been stated, so I don't feel the need to rehash them fully. The idea of removing the boons and just upping the stats on everyone to accommodate doesn't solve the problem, it just kicks the can. This is why Might and Fury exist even though a lot of classes can generate plenty on their own, etc. etc.

One thing I did want to point out, especially because most of my experience with Raid and Strike content has been with both a training group and in a training context is simply that this is a problem at the top tier of play only. If ten people with a highest DPS of 15k can clear content, the reason comps are stale isn't solely because of the game. It's because the community wants to rush the content from zero to dead as fast as possible.

If a training group can clear Samarog down a DPS from the start with a Scourge in the group not knowing what the skill Skeletal Grasp does to a breakbar, then maybe some content is just going to get alpha'd by a competent squad regardless and groups should be okay with competency over meta. It's amusingly counter-intuitive to see people that enjoy the content want it to be over faster. Don't get me wrong, I understand speed running. But when fights last minutes when done by a group of people who still get thrown around Vale's arena like the objective is to be as far away from the boss as possible, I don't really know why groups that aren't going for records are really so picky.

Quickness and Alacrity aren't requirements, except for the fact that they are artificially required. The game itself isn't stopping you from beating bosses without them. Are they too good for the amount of access to them? Almost certainly. Alac Renegade, even the DPS version, gets it at full uptime on one button and it's stupid. That's why I play Heal Renegade; I like the focus and challenge required to manage swapping legends plus the Ventari placement, plus energy management. It's still dumb that I canovercap Alac if everyone properly grouped. I've watched Youtube and ADPS playbacks of even intermmediate groups basically gaining all the buffs at full uptime. But maybe the buffs aren't the problem?

Maybe the problem is that they're kind of brain dead to actually acquire. The skill ceiling, not the floor, should be higher. The floor seems to be just fine where it is. But meta groups don't seem to want to take an extra bit of time to clear content just because they don't have something. It's not actually needed. It's just that it's so accessible to gain that its costless to culturally force it as a requirement. Have I cleared harder content in Raids or Fractals? No. But I've also played MMOs before GW2, and they were the same. 'Requiring' the same stale comps wasn't because of the game; it was because of the sake of pure optimization.

One game I played had a class that could solo all but the two toughest dungeons in the game on its own. It had nearly every debuff in the game, including Max HP reduction (which did work on bosses, and did essentially do 25% of a boss' HP total from the start of the fight). But sacrificing one meta role in a squad for something that did a quarter of the Boss' HP in a single cast wasn't acceptable because it simply wasn't meta. Because if you were all truly, truly optimal, you'd kill the boss faster than that hit mattered. But in practice most groups would never beat the time that single skill saved.

So, you know. Remember that meta usually only means best when all you do is raw math. In practice it might not always be. GW 2's boon problem is the ease of access, not the power of the boon. If I can give full Alac by taping down my F4 key on a class, that might be a design problem. And it's not solved by making it so every class can do it.

[FirebrandFrog.7603]

On 4/24/2022 at 8:02 AM, dace.8019 said:

Those are important but have you ever looked at the LFG? Besides a healer, it's either asking specifically for a spec providing either of the boons I'm discussing or just directly using the names of the boons. They don't care half the time what is doing them, so long as the boons are on the bar.

inasfar as asking for specific classes: some quick or alac classes are better than others in doing a secondary thing alongside their main boon. Case in point is Firebrand which *still* has the in-game most reliable amount of aegis to be provided, along with stability thanks to Book 3. DPSing is a lot smoother when you don't ever worry about dodging or breaking your rotations.

[Linken.6345]

13 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's pretty much a desire shared by like 80% of players of all MMORPGs out there. Possibly more than that, even.

I mean, there's a reason why in other games tanks and healers are always the hardest to find. And why players generally hate having to wait for those roles to show up.

The truth is, next to noone actually likes playing support.

More like noone likes responsibility.

If tank kitten up it is easy to see and blame them.

Same if healer kitten up.

If a dps kitten up the kill goes alittle slower.

[FirebrandFrog.7603]

39 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

More like noone likes responsibility.

If tank kitten up it is easy to see and blame them.

Same if healer kitten up.

If a dps kitten up the kill goes alittle slower.

It's a little of both.

In games with a proper aggro system, a tank kittening up (underperforming in aggro gen, underperforming in either healing or DPS based on class) can be pretty lethal for a party, but it'll be context-reliant on everything else too. Could a dps off-tank in case of an oopsie-doodle on the tank's behalf? Could the DPS's simply out-burst the mobs while the healer's running double-time?

But in GW2, a dps dying can be *felt* in how sluggish an encounter goes. And with some encounters having enrage timers (e.g. Aetherblade CM), a downed DPS drastically reduces your chances of success; too many downed DPS's, and you might as well not waste time and call for a mass /gg.

On the other hand, I've been carried on a baaaaad near-TPK in Kaineng Overlook and even Harvest Temple on the backs of two or three very ballsy players...but they also have the skill (and the *time*) to perform that carry. Thankfully, it was also on phases where the only thing left *to do* is DPS Or Die.

I agree that supports are rare because the job is thankless and hard; you have to *want* to be support in order to truly enjoy it (and even that gets old after a while). Having the responsibility of keeping a bunch of other headless chickens alive is *HARD*. I don't want just anyone to do it, to be honest.

[Veya.2871]

46 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

More like noone likes responsibility.

If tank kitten up it is easy to see and blame them.

Same if healer kitten up.

If a dps kitten up the kill goes alittle slower.

There is also more to it, people are quick to blame support, be a tank or a healer, if anything goes wrong, it doesn't matter that the DPS ran in too far ahead, doesn't matter that they were ignoring battle mechanics, that they couldn't keep it together for 5 minutes, something goes wrong? it is the support's fault.

Now, there is more to it, and a good group in any game will be able to identify when it's not the support's fault, but even in GW2 in pubs, I had a situation in KO where a person glitched out during the transitions and wasn't launched right, and landed full dead, in a run where people were ignoring a good chunk of mechanics and making it a lot harder for me, the first thing someone did was to say that the healer, in that case me, was a kitten player.

And trust me, nobody likes to be on the receiving end of that chunk of vitriol, and this is coming from someone who likes playign Support normally, when things go well enough.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Veya.2871

[Jin Seinochi.2347]

16 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's pretty much a desire shared by like 80% of players of all MMORPGs out there. Possibly more than that, even.

I mean, there's a reason why in other games tanks and healers are always the hardest to find. And why players generally hate having to wait for those roles to show up.

The truth is, next to noone actually likes playing support.

I highly doubt that it's as high as 80% of the player base of all MMO's that don't want it. 

 

Speaking as someone who loves tanking, and in some mmos healing, you'll almost never find me queue as either with a full group of pugs. Why? Because in most other mmos the community is toxic as hell, new or not, they will spit on your face and light your house on fire. That's how WoW had been for years and years, and the last time I touched that game was Legion. I see some of that come out here from time to time, but it's almost never in instanced content. I know it does happen and experiences vary, but in my personal experience I've had maybe two occasions in the past year. 

 

Those dps who queue up for their dungeons often times do it to themselves, or a few ruin it for all. If I have to choose between waiting an extra 30 minutes or being trashed on for not knowing something in a run, or god forbid getting blamed for someone else's mistake, and potentially getting kicked? I think that is a no brainer decision. And I'm not even a bad tank, I was a mythic raider. 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Jin Seinochi.2347

[Mrs Lana.2506]

3 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

More like noone likes responsibility.

If tank kitten up it is easy to see and blame them.

Same if healer kitten up.

If a dps kitten up the kill goes alittle slower.

This is exactly it. The only other things that dps can mess up is mechanics, but if you're raiding you most likely know the mechanics before entering, regardless of the role you're playing (unless you're in a training squad, which is entirely different).

I loved playing chrono tank. I love healbranding. What I don't love is awful dps players telling me I'm not doing my job right when they're not doing their job, and don't know the first thing about the role I'm covering.

[Dante.1508]

20 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Why are you so nostalgic for a time when everyone was new and hadn't yet gotten a solid handle on the combat mechanics? That's a learning phase. Maybe the game isn't so much "ruined" as it is that you simply enjoy learning phases more.

Because it was enjoyable back then, this modern stuff not really enjoyable.

[Zoid.2568]

No. Boons are fun and add something extra to the gameplay and it makes endgame a little bit more difficult.

[Chaba.5410]

5 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

Because it was enjoyable back then, this modern stuff not really enjoyable.

Like I suggested, maybe that is a phase in the life of a game that is enjoyable to some yet does not necessarily mean the game is "ruined". Just natural progression.

[Vaen.2605]

Players will always find something that they can't live without in their group, it's the nature of modern MMOs.  These two boons, spread across several fun classes, is a pretty great solution.

[Borked.6824]

11 hours ago, Zoid.2568 said:

No. Boons are fun and add something extra to the gameplay and it makes endgame a little bit more difficult.

They sure are, but my beloved Willbender would like to avoid investing in a blatantly cobbled build for a couple seconds of alacrity here and there, lest I become the scum of the earth for being "selfish".  But ohhh boy, when sweaty folks know they can fill the last couple group spots with that juicy little clock buff because the internet said they deserve it... warms my heart...

[Reknarok.7582]

boons aren’t the problem, the playerbase is. you just don’t like the playerbase optimising the fun out of pve and demanding that everyone be meta so they can spend the shortest period of time actually doing content

 it’s the same in literally every single online multiplayer game. people don’t want to struggle because it doesn’t feel good, know what feels good? killing a boss in record time because numbers big.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Reknarok.7582

[SnackParty.3178]

They are the most demanding but it's also part of the teamwork. Look at your utilities and wep abilities to see what you can bring.

Like me, I started swapping shouts out for CC breakers since there's enough healing, max buffs and vulnerability going around. Nice change of pace, get to play different for the occasions (And a nice excuse for rampage :D)

[Despot.3048]

20 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

Because it was enjoyable back then, this modern stuff not really enjoyable.

With the amount of complaining you do, I'm surprised you're still playing the game. You want stuff back to what it was, go back to core Tyria. No one's stopping you and no one's forcing you to do 'hard content" either. 

[Dante.1508]

1 hour ago, Despot.3048 said:

With the amount of complaining you do, I'm surprised you're still playing the game. You want stuff back to what it was, go back to core Tyria. No one's stopping you and no one's forcing you to do 'hard content" either. 

I take 6 month to years breaks constantly.. EoD brought me back, don't fear i usually only last 3 months in modern Guildwars 2.. Funnily i spent 6-7 years constant in Guildwars 1..

[Kalavin.8674]

I hate how quickness ruined the game combat animation is honestly ugly to look at. Like greatsword doesn't even feel like a slow heavy blade anymore

 

during boss fight with quickness is 10 people attacking like some speed meth head warrior.

 

Quickness should just be replaced with a 20% increase damage maybe rename it battle rage.