Tired Of Willbender - Get It Under Control Please - Mobility Creep Is A Problem

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

^ Thread title

It needs to lose some of its chase potential.

It's not the DPS that's a problem, it's the chase potential.

Mobility creep is putting a hurting on the game mode of Conquest.

Look at this -> GW2 - Willbender mobility demo - forum discussion - Twitch

Also this -> What To Play To Win Automated Tournaments! - The Competitive PvP Tier List! - YouTube

It's the mobility that makes it S tier.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Willbender is breaking the will of people to play PvP. 

Mission accomplished I guess. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Eh more elaborately, what it's doing is it's currently threatening to remove the purpose of "kiting" in pvp. You actually can't get away from Willbender without large amounts of stealthing and ground target teleporting. So pretty much, Thief can get away and maybe Mesmer if it's stated for it, but other classes have no reason to stat for mobility in the face of a Willbender meta.

This will inevitably result in a meta stated for slow tanky attribute stacking, where the idea is to "go in offensively and win or die, with no repositioning, because chase potential is much stronger in GW2 than disengage potential". This is no good. It removes so much about the dynamic of why Conquest feels good to play.

This is a trend we do not want to see GW2's pvp go down. People talk about "game's dead we are upset balance yada yada" but this really will actually ruin the game's pvp if they don't correct this and STOP mobility creeping everything. In a game like GW2 or really any pvp game for that matter, chase potential should NEVER be overall stronger amongst all classes than disengage potential. This turns a game into a slug fest where movement/positioning/evasive play is pretty irrelevant in the face of sheer attribute tied statistics, and that's no fun. If you thought balance was bad now, wait till everything has double the chase potential that it does disengage potential, and there are no options to avoid your counters.

Seriously though Arenanet, this is no ordinary balance issue this time. You guys needs to put Willbender's chase potential back in-line and never allow any class ever again to breech that point, unless you also elevate disengage factors to compensate. Willbender is making pvp feel pretty flat-footed and number based more so than ever. The good spot to compare is to a Power Herald. No class/build should ever breech past the chase potential of a Power Herald. Power Herald is a good example of peak acceptable chase potential. Allowing builds to surpass that is breaking the game's purpose of disengage and movement.

Please put Willbender back into line for the sake the integrity of the game's pvp mechanics.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[myun.6395]

Lots of problems with willbender, it can +1 better than any other spec.

It can team fight very well, the best cleaver in game.

It can 1vs1 very decently, people saying it can't are just delusional at this point, every willbender I faced just push you 1vs1 no matter what spec you are playing, they have the kill potential on you due to the high burst.

It can provide decent support along with a core guard cleansing condis plus sharing stab on relatively low cooldown.

 

I prefer to fight mechanists and harbingers or specters all day than this atrocious spec.

 

It is seriously too overturned at this point, it doesn't have a single drawback, it's too easy to play, the risk is too low for the reward it provides.

 

It is also very sad how guardian can have 2 meta builds being core support and willy and an insanely good ranking build (trap dh), it's bad to say, but it's kitten.

 

#nerfthebluechildonceforall.

[Abyssisis.3971]

Does pvp balance have any integrity left? 

[Arheundel.6451]

PvPers in 2022: "I want a different meta"

Anet:" here a new meta"

PvPers in 2022: "Nooo....I want a new meta...but one where I keep having no challenges...and one where I am still top dog"

Anet:"................."

 

[Ombras.2853]

Willbender player spotter 😄

[Ragnar.4257]

See what we've got here is a binary problem, meaning that either WB is either overpowered or it is useless. Which we can see is what happened when it went from being the weakest EoD spec on release to arguably the strongest now, just by trimming the cooldowns on F2/3.

WB does basically the same damage as core-guardian, but core-guardian (as a DPS) has for years been trash-tier. The reason for that is while it has high theoretical damage, you could almost never land it. WB takes that same damage and makes it land-able. 

If WB has sufficient chase-potential to land its damage, then is OP.

If WB does not have sufficient chase-potential to land its damage, then it goes right back to trash-tier along with DPS-core-guard.

There is no in-between here. You can't "partially" catch someone who is kiting you. Either you catch them, or you don't.

There are many binary problems like this in the game., like the various bunkers that have risen and fallen over the years. Either their sustain is enough to allow them to live forever 1v1, in which case they're a massive problem, or, their sustain is not sufficient in which case they go right back in the garbage.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Bazsi.2734]

Isn't the point of willbender that you cannot get away from it? Like I know it's dumb, and it shouldn't be a thing, but that's the point of e-spec. It's guardian, but it zoom-zooms like thief.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

PvPers in 2022: "I want a different meta"

Anet:" here a new meta"

PvPers in 2022: "Nooo....I want a new meta...but one where I keep having no challenges...and one where I am still top dog"

Anet:"................."

 

This is an entirely inaccurate assessment of what is being said here, in-game, and in other threads about Willbender.

The things being said about Willbender are no idle or ignorant or generally frustrated complaints.

This build archetype is slopping up the base game mechanics that once made people say: "GW2 has the best combat engine".

[greedywholesome.9081]

I had two WB chasing me and there's only so much of this I can do.

Im not defending it. It's just that even with teleports and what not, the combos are still dodge-able. 

It hits hard when stuff lands on time and in sequence. 

[Ragnar.4257]

1 minute ago, greedywholesome.9081 said:

I had two WB chasing me and there's only so much of this I can do.

Im not defending it. It's just that even with teleports and what not, the combos are still dodge-able. 

It hits hard when stuff lands on time and in sequence. 

106 damage......

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

33 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

If WB has sufficient chase-potential to land its damage, then is OP.

If WB does not have sufficient chase-potential to land its damage, then it goes right back to trash-tier along with DPS-core-guard.

I get what you're saying, but there are easily ways to find a middle point there, or what some may say is a "balanced" point.

For example, lowering the CD on some of these mobility skills, or even the range.

It shouldn't be chopped, it just needs to allow other classes room for kiting. The way it is right now, it sticks to you like glue and that's too much considering everything it does is a nuclear AoE burst, not a single strike backstab, but a nuclear AoE burst that deals like double the damage of a backstab.

I mean come on man, current Willbender is like a Reaper that deals double the damage of a Reaper, that has greater chase potential than a Thief. It's too much man.

 

30 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Isn't the point of willbender that you cannot get away from it? Like I know it's dumb, and it shouldn't be a thing, but that's the point of e-spec. It's guardian, but it zoom-zooms like thief.

Yes, but it's too much due to everything it does being AoE. <- That is the problem with the entire build archetype honestly. You look at Thief play or Rev play, and these things have great chase potential, but most of what they do is single strikes that require an actual target. Willbender on the other hand doesn't even need to see you. You could stealth right quick and it'll still hit you when it spins to win, and probably chop off 50% or more of your health bar before you get 2s to get away from it and reappear and then get teleported on again.

This design could be adequately described as "Willbender is playing a different game than other classes of its archetype". Anything that possesses such great chase potential, should not be tossing around nuclear AoE cleave damage. It just shouldn't be happening. This is not only great power creep, but also great mobility creep. And as I already mentioned, their patching here is reaching a threshold with this power/mobility creep, where they are about to COMPLETELY change the way we optimize our play in this game. By adding all these skills all over the place that are direct target teleports or mobility skills to create great chase potential, but then don't add extra measures for disengage, they are seriously devaluing the purpose of kiting at all. In my opinion, this is not a good change for how things should feel in the game's dynamic.

What's the point of running mobile builds if most of the builds in the game possess twice the chase potential as existing disengage potential? I mean we are talking the end of mentally stimulating rotations. Conquest will turn into something more akin to Death Match than Conquest, because you enter a fight and you need to win it because there is no running. We have already felt these effects beginning, with all the mobility creep they've added, but this is getting really bad with Willbender.

I feel like people, although they notice it is strong or maybe OP, are not quite yet noticing that it is actually game breaking not just to the intra-class dynamic, but also the idea of Conquest in general. As I said in the response to Ragnar, take a look back before EOD dropped and imagine what you would said if Arenanet asked us: "Do you guys think it would be balanced if a class was added that had more AoE cleave DPS than a Power Reaper and that had more teleport/chase potential than a DP Daredevil or Power Herald? What would you have thought about that?

I mean in terms of generally respectable balance theory for a game like this, things are just getting too weird man. These balance issues are leaving a place of: "Oh this class is stronger than this class and I'm upset about it" and entering a place of: "Man this class is removing the purpose of the game mode in general."

Is this what we want? I dunno, maybe some like it. I just think this is dangerous trend for Arenanet to go down if they have any care left at all for their pvp. This mobility creep stuff has got to stop. In year 10 here, I'm personally feeling like the mobility creep is actually creating more detrimental problems than power creep.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Sereath.1428]

The best way to look at it is by comparing it with Herald, it may not exactly be literally better in every aspect than Herald, although some could argue it is,  but it's for sure way more forgiving to play Willbender. So unlike Herald, Willbender will be everywhere due to its ease of use.

Low Risk/High Reward

Edited May 6, 2022 by XxsdgxX.8109

[greedywholesome.9081]

15 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

106 damage......

 

Lol. Weakness OP or prolly forgot to equip an ammy...or traitline. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, GuriGashi.5617 said:

Yes, tell us you don‘t know what no port spots are without saying it. Pretty sure people like you cry about every single class they get destroyed by in PvP Trevor 

just nvm

Edited May 6, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Hotride.2187]

Overall it would be great if balancing (spvp AND wvw) is more frequent after new garbage is introduced... Leaving a mode for an year without balancing is already pretty bad. But introducing new specs in the already sad state, then buffing them cause they are useless (cause the state was sad) and then doing nothing for weeks... what do you think happens during those weeks. I've essentially neither roamed nor done conquest since eod drop.

To their credit they did delete the rev build pretty fast. Maybe guardian/necro is special somehow???

Edited May 6, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Ragnar.4257]

14 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Oh and the beautiful thing about Willbender, is that most of its teleports aren't even targeted teleports. They're just mobility skills or ground targets, so they can go right at you on the no-port spot anyway.

This isn't true.

SW2 - Requires Target

SW5 - Requires Target

JI - Requires Target

Crashing Courage - No target

3 out of 4 require a target, and you characterise that as " most of its teleports aren't even targeted".

Come on dude...... I get the frustration but lets not stoop to the level of obvious lies.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

32 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

SW2 - Requires Target

SW5 - Requires Target

JI - Requires Target

Crashing Courage - No target

Exactly.

Let's go further into this:

1. Symbol of Blades - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 10s teleport CD. 8s with trait.
2. Advancing Strike - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 20s teleport CD, 16s with trait.
3. Judge's Intervention - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 40s teleport CD, 32s with trait. 1200 range, goes through walls and floors, no animation so it can be used to combo other large wind-up combos.
4. Crashing Courage - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 30s ground target teleport CD, 24s with trait. Immediately renews with Renewed Focus.

Let me point out the two skills you chose to neglect in your response to me:

1. Rushing Justice - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)12s CD 800 range mobility skills that does not  require a target to use, 10s with trait.
2. Flowing Resolve - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 2x ammo skill on a 20s recharge, a mobility skill that is also an evasion skill, 16s with trait, does not require a target to use.

I should have said "most of its mobility skills" instead of "most of its teleports", which is what I meant at the time but typed it in wrong. Anyway, thanks for trying to inject propaganda into the thread calling me a liar, and trying to leave out information as to encourage the idea that Willbender had almost half the mobility that it actually has.

Careful with your forum plays man. Let's not get all heterogenius homoidiot here. It's just a thread discussion that we all knew was coming. Relax and stop trying to play so dirty.

At any rate, anyone can see very clearly from this single response and evaluation of all the teleports and mobility leaps that Willbender has, that its mobility is too loaded. It's too much. It's like a Reaper with beyond Daredevil level mobility. Defending it seems pompous and self-agenda driven tbh.

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Ragnar.4257]

4 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Exactly.

Let's go further into this:

1. Symbol of Blades - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 10s teleport CD. 8s with trait.
2. Advancing Strike - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 20s teleport CD, 16s with trait.
3. Judge's Intervention - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 40s teleport CD, 32s with trait. 1200 range, goes through walls and floors, no animation so it can be used to combo other large wind-up combos.
4. Crashing Courage - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 30s ground target teleport CD, 24s with trait. Immediately renews with Renewed Focus.

Let me point out the two skills you chose to neglect in your response to me:

1. Rushing Justice - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)12s CD 800 range mobility skills that does require a target to use, 10s with trait.
2. Flowing Resolve - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 2x ammo skill on a 20s recharge, a mobility skill that is also an evasion skill, 16s with trait, doesn't require a target to use.

I should have said "most of its mobility skills" instead of "most of its teleports", which is what I meant at the time but typed it in wrong. Anyway, thanks for trying to inject propaganda into the thread calling me a liar, and trying to leave out information as to encourage the idea that Willbender had almost half the mobility that it actually has.

Careful with your forum plays man. Let's not get all heterogenius homoidiot here. It's just a thread discussion that we all knew was coming. Relax and stop trying to play so dirty.

At any rate, anyone can see very clearly from this single response and evaluation of all the teleports and mobility leaps that Willbender has, that its mobility is too loaded. It's too much.

 

You said teleports.

Not my fault if you type one thing and then say you meant another thing. I didn't neglect anything. You specifically talked about teleports, so thats what I responded to.

"I didn't lie, I know what I said was a lie, but I mean something different that wasn't a lie, so, I didn't lie".

Edited May 6, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Ragnar.4257]

11 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Defending it seems pompous and self-agenda driven tbh.

Lol? I'm not defending it?

I'm calling out where something said is objectively wrong, so that discussion on how to nerf it can be appropriately targeted at what needs to be nerfed, rather than just randomly flailing about in a cloud of untruths and misconceptions.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

7 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

You said teleports.

Not my fault if you type one thing and then say you meant another thing. I didn't neglect anything. You specifically talked about teleports, so thats what I responded to.

"I didn't lie, I know what I said was a lie, but I mean something different that wasn't a lie, so, I didn't lie".

You're too quick looking for pokes. Reread my post:

49 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yes, tell us more about no port spots where you can still get hit by massive horizontal and vertical cleave attacks.

Pretty sure people like you talk out their wazoo to attack other forum users but don't possess much game knowledge in general, certainly not enough to be discussing game balance, as exhibited in your response here.

No port spots work against traditional single target strikes like from Thieves or Mesmers or Revenants or even Rangers, that require targets. Massive nuclear AoE bursting on the other hand, hits most of the no port spots. Oh and the beautiful thing about Willbender, is that most of its teleports aren't even targeted teleports. They're just mobility skills or ground targets, so they can go right at you on the no-port spot anyway.

Glad you spoke up actually. Led me to a good point that needed to be made.

Clearly you can see that I had the mobility skills in mind while writing this post.

I wasn't lying, the first part written was a typo on my part.

You need to settle down, stop falling back on the Ad Hominems for the main body of your arguments.

But I'm sure you'll continue on. Let's see what you say next. I'm sure it won't be surprising at all.

~ Kudos man

[Ragnar.4257]

Okay, whatever. Say what you mean next time, don't say one thing and then say you meant something different. Takes 2 seconds to proof-read a post.

Actual suggestions:

1. Whirling Light 15s -> 25s. 15s is crazy low for a utility skill.

2. Flowing Resolve 20s -> 25s. This shouldn't be hit hard. Harbinger will become rampant if it is.

3. Crashing Courage 30s -> 40s

4. For WB specifically (not other guard specs) make the F2 cleanse and F3 stability from virtues traits apply only to the WB, not to allies. WB is supposed to be selfish and give up its team-support, these 2 traits break that.

Given that it was only a very small number of changes in the last balance patch that brought WB up from weak to strong, it shouldn't take many tweaks to knock it back down.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

21 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Lol? I'm not defending it?

I'm calling out where something said is objectively wrong, so that discussion on how to nerf it can be appropriately targeted at what needs to be nerfed, rather than just randomly flailing about in a cloud of untruths and misconceptions.

Yeah ok. Well anyway:

Notice the CDs of all of those skills. The Willbender with those skills cycling so quickly, can chase someone with just about 90% uptime of pure mobility gap closers and teleports. Hell, that list doesn't even incorporate the GS#3 leap, which adds even more to its mobility cycle. Also doesn't incorporate the GS#5 pull or the Immob or the Slow, which all also contribute to its ability to chase things.

Bro this class can actually chase people without using WASD.

I don't have anything else to say to you.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Terrorhuz.4695]

HOT TAKE: IT'S NOT WILLBENDER, IT'S GUARDIAN
As far as PvP is concerned, for different reasons, almost everything in guard (dragonhunter, willbender, core) is meta in some way. Maybe not MAT levels, but it can reach high plat without any real problem. I'd argue how even the problems we had with the necro meta were caused by guardians, because (I'll let you in a secret) necromancers, without a guardian around, DID die. With a guardian around, it was just impossible; just the guardian existing made the difference. Granted, there were many reasons why people were running necromancers, but one of them definitely was that you either had a necromancer to corrupt SOME boons from an opponent guardian or you wouldn't be able to deal any damage, ever, period.

And the thing that really highlights there's a problem comes when the trend is so solidified that it's not just a PvP thing anymore; EVERYTHING in the game is decided by guardians. In this sense, PvP is the odd one, because in every other gamemode even firebrand is meta.

When guardians of all shapes and form are a must-pick in PvE, but also a must-pick in WvW both zerging and roaming, but also a must-pick in low level PvP (g3 and below), but also a must-pick high level PvP (p1 and above), but also a must-pick in the highest competitive settings (AT and MAT), you're probably reaching a point where something about the class itself needs a really fat nerf.

GW used to mean Guild Wars, right now it stands for Guardians Winning, and it's getting slightly annoying.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695