Tired Of Willbender - Get It Under Control Please - Mobility Creep Is A Problem

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Terrorhuz.4695 You're not wrong.

[Ragnar.4257]

Pretty much everyone was of the opinion on EoD release that WB was garbage. There's a reason it was called "Feedbender". It got buffed in the March 29 patch, which sent it up from basically worst EoD spec (closely tied with Cata and Virt) up to being arguably the best.

So what actually changed in that patch? The "balance" point for WB is presumably somewhere in between where it was on release, and what was added in the March 29 patch.

• Advancing Strike: Increased immobile duration from 1 second to 2 seconds in PvP and WvW.
  • This one was very much needed. SW4 is impossible to land without it. But if you want to trim it to 1.5s, then eh, whatever.
• Lethal Tempo: Increased damage bonus per stack from 2% to 3% in PvP and WvW.
  • Could be reverted.
• Flowing Resolve: Reduced ammo recharge from 30 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW. Increased initial base heal from 783 to 1,331 in PvP and WvW.
  • Base heal should stay, recharge nudge it up to 25s. WB being able to pressure condi-specs isn't something anyone wants to see removed.
• Crashing Courage: Reduced cooldown from 50 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW.
  • This is the big one. Given that WB with 50s CC = trash, and WB with 30s CC = god, then lets see if 40s would be a balance-point.
• Roiling Light: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW.
  • Nobody uses this, irrelevant.
• Heaven's Palm: Reduced cooldown from 25 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW.
  • Nobody uses this, irrelevant.
• Mighty Blow: Reduced cooldown from 8 seconds to 6 seconds in PvP and WvW.
  • Nobody uses this, irrelevant.
• Zealot's Embrace: Increased power coefficient from 0.8 to 1.2 in PvP and WvW.
  • Nobody uses this, irrelevant.
• Ring of Warding: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW.
  • Nobody uses this, irrelevant.
• Righteous Instincts: Increased bonus critical chance from 25% to 40% in PvP only.
  • I know people think this is huge, but its actually irrelevant. WB achieves 100% crit with or without this change. You could revert it and you'd literally not see any difference in WB damage output.

And, like I said before, Whirling Light probably needs a look at. Its high damage on a 15s cooldown. Either put up the cooldown (25-30s), or else trim the power damage (~50%) to make it a more defensive skill for weakness application.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

~ nvm

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Downstate.4697]

Its the the low cd condi cleanse and stab that prevents counter play

[Sahne.6950]

3 minutes ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Its the the low cd condi cleanse and stab that prevents counter play

and the blind spam, Aegis, blocks, yada yada... its just to much of alot of things :C

[Myror.7521]

Long discuss short answer. Found willbender annoying to fight BUT not cause it  me to hell but cause it got so many defence options at the same time. (Blinds, aegis proc, some Block, and of course the biggest defence skill the f3 button) think all anet need to Do is just increase the CD of the f3 skill (maybe f2 too but yea that one is just one dodge so mabye left this behind) but increase it slightly and not punish it to hell!

[Ragnar.4257]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

and the blind spam, Aegis, blocks, yada yada... its just to much of alot of things :C

Why don't you list the aegis/block skills the meta WB build has?

For reference, this is the meta build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWwAExzlhyUZgsP2IW8X5RXA-z5IGCaDA

Zero blocks.

1 aegis on F3.

That's it.

Catalyst, Bladesworn, Virtuoso, Mechanist, Vindicator, Untamed, are all running more blocks than this.

Again, I'm not saying that there aren't some nerfs needed for WB (look at my previous posts in this thread, I've suggested many nerfs), but you need to actually look objectively at the reality of the situation in order to do it properly. How're you gonna nerf WB blocks...... when it doesn't have any blocks? This is like saying we need to nerf Harbinger's access to Distortion. ??!!?!???

Edited May 6, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[AzuritaBlues.3206]

You just have to cut it's sustain and make it more glassy and it will be fine. The problem is the great acces to aegis, protection, resolution, stability, condi cleanses and invulnerability... which makes it much harder to counter pressure them.  

You want to keep this damage and mobility? fine, but then adress it's sustain to make it even.

 

[Poledra Val.1490]

People have really short memories when Herald was released it was far more broken the WB is at the moment and it remained that way for an extremely long time. Fast forward to WB in beta it was just god awful in pvp they buffed it and now its S+ tier, so within 6 weeks people want it nerfed.

I wont argue it needs some trimming but I hope Anet ignores any forum posters advice because the vast majority of them are either biased for there own classes or they are biased for Willbender, let them wittle down WB little by little as they usually do when there is a very strong class around.

I think people also dont realize how incredibly strong Harbinger and Untamed is at the moment and is on par imo with Willbender and i dont see a lot of screeching from the rooftops for them to be nerfed currently.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

This is where I recall that they had negative stats on the first tier of traits in their first beta. Lucky benders even got to pick their negative stat, not like having -300 toughness shoved down their throat... But NO... Can't be giving blue child actual negatives now can we...

Hey, how about Anet slaps a -300 toughness on one of the minors eh?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

As a thief player that can now be easily caught by someone playing the Blue Blur, I am enjoying the lack of whine about how uncatchable I am when I move slightly farther away by spending  half my initiative. ☺️

Especially in WvW, where I am more op somehow despite not being able to contribute to most group content in a mode about group content

Enjoy the mobility shake up. And make no mistake, I still think willbender is fine. 

ʷʰᵃᵗ ᵈᵒ ʸᵒᵘ ᵐᵉᵃⁿ? ᴺᵒ, ᴵ'ᵐ ⁿᵒᵗ ᵇᶦᵗᵗᵉʳ ᵃᵇᵒᵘᵗ ⁿᵉʳᶠˢ ʷʰᵃᵃᵃᵃᵗ ᵐᵉᵉᵉᵉ ⁿᵒᵒᵒ~

Edited May 6, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Kuya.6495]

4 hours ago, Poledra Val.1490 said:

 

I think people also dont realize how incredibly strong Harbinger and Untamed is at the moment and is on par imo with Willbender and i dont see a lot of screeching from the rooftops for them to be nerfed currently.

You don't see much screeching about harb and untamed as willbender because a lot of people have legit blue class envy. They are mad fb is meta in pve. They are mad fb is meta in wvw. And they are mad core guard and now willy is meta in pvp. They even derisively joke about guard being anet's favorite class. 

They really just hate it whenever a guard spec is meta.

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Kuya.6495

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

50 minutes ago, Kuya.6495 said:

You don't see much screeching about harb and untamed as willbender because a lot of people have legit blue class envy. They are mad fb is meta in pve. They are mad fb is meta in wvw. And they are mad core guard and now willy is meta is pvp. They even derisively joke about guard being anet's favorite class. 

They really just hate it whenever a guard spec is meta.

 

To be fair, Guard has had some variant of meta action for like.... the entirety of its existence, which is more than can be said for other specs. 

But I wouldn't use that to hamstring willbender. If they wanna play thief let em; they're subject to a good portion of the issues thief has for node presence. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Bazsi.2734]

10 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I get what you're saying, but there are easily ways to find a middle point there, or what some may say is a "balanced" point.

For example, lowering the CD on some of these mobility skills, or even the range.

It shouldn't be chopped, it just needs to allow other classes room for kiting. The way it is right now, it sticks to you like glue and that's too much considering everything it does is a nuclear AoE burst, not a single strike backstab, but a nuclear AoE burst that deals like double the damage of a backstab.

I mean come on man, current Willbender is like a Reaper that deals double the damage of a Reaper, that has greater chase potential than a Thief. It's too much man.

 

Yes, but it's too much due to everything it does being AoE. <- That is the problem with the entire build archetype honestly. You look at Thief play or Rev play, and these things have great chase potential, but most of what they do is single strikes that require an actual target. Willbender on the other hand doesn't even need to see you. You could stealth right quick and it'll still hit you when it spins to win, and probably chop off 50% or more of your health bar before you get 2s to get away from it and reappear and then get teleported on again.

This design could be adequately described as "Willbender is playing a different game than other classes of its archetype". Anything that possesses such great chase potential, should not be tossing around nuclear AoE cleave damage. It just shouldn't be happening. This is not only great power creep, but also great mobility creep. And as I already mentioned, their patching here is reaching a threshold with this power/mobility creep, where they are about to COMPLETELY change the way we optimize our play in this game. By adding all these skills all over the place that are direct target teleports or mobility skills to create great chase potential, but then don't add extra measures for disengage, they are seriously devaluing the purpose of kiting at all. In my opinion, this is not a good change for how things should feel in the game's dynamic.

What's the point of running mobile builds if most of the builds in the game possess twice the chase potential as existing disengage potential? I mean we are talking the end of mentally stimulating rotations. Conquest will turn into something more akin to Death Match than Conquest, because you enter a fight and you need to win it because there is no running. We have already felt these effects beginning, with all the mobility creep they've added, but this is getting really bad with Willbender.

I feel like people, although they notice it is strong or maybe OP, are not quite yet noticing that it is actually game breaking not just to the intra-class dynamic, but also the idea of Conquest in general. As I said in the response to Ragnar, take a look back before EOD dropped and imagine what you would said if Arenanet asked us: "Do you guys think it would be balanced if a class was added that had more AoE cleave DPS than a Power Reaper and that had more teleport/chase potential than a DP Daredevil or Power Herald? What would you have thought about that?

I mean in terms of generally respectable balance theory for a game like this, things are just getting too weird man. These balance issues are leaving a place of: "Oh this class is stronger than this class and I'm upset about it" and entering a place of: "Man this class is removing the purpose of the game mode in general."

Is this what we want? I dunno, maybe some like it. I just think this is dangerous trend for Arenanet to go down if they have any care left at all for their pvp. This mobility creep stuff has got to stop. In year 10 here, I'm personally feeling like the mobility creep is actually creating more detrimental problems than power creep.

I do not disagree... but this is hardly an accident. They are dumbing the gamemode down with the mobility creep. We don't need to tell the devs that, they know. Even if you deleted willbenders mobility from the game, all the new e-specs are chalk full of perma swiftness, superspeed, max range teleports, combat mobility. Willbender is just the worst out of them.

[Hotride.2187]

3 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

You don't see much screeching about harb and untamed as willbender because a lot of people have legit blue class envy. They are mad fb is meta in pve. They are mad fb is meta in wvw. And they are mad core guard and now willy is meta in pvp. They even derisively joke about guard being anet's favorite class. 

They really just hate it whenever a guard spec is meta.

Half the builds (professions even) are in the dumpster, guard is meta everywhere -> players "envy" guard. Also don't know why you think its a joke, I'm pretty sure most players are serious when they say it.

[KeoLegend.5132]

I think you are wrong

 

1. Willbender's Chasing potential is horrible. Sticking to a target is one thing, Whriling on it is another. I can easily jump but i can't do a full GS2 or SW3+4 on a competent player because they can dodge, daze, cc, run.

2. Power Willbender is not that strong. If you stand and eat everything of course you are expected to die. Thats with any assassin builds out there

3. The PvP Meta is actually one of the most balanced ever since i started 5 years ago. Im liking it alot, despite having glaring issues with some professions (like mesmer)

4. WB and HB are the the FOTM professions. This means that 7 out of 10 players are garbage with them, and being an assassin (both) makes it easy to bait and kill

 

I am honestly much more scared of a Fire Weaver or another bunker duelist than a WB or HB that will more times than not mindlessly jump on me and then get killed because i countered it somehow

[Garret.1965]

mara/divinity - still pumping as if on zerker.

[lotus.5672]

Rework renewed focus so it recharges virtues only by a few seconds, not fully. I dont care about the invul part.

[myun.6395]

14 hours ago, Poledra Val.1490 said:

People have really short memories when Herald was released it was far more broken the WB is at the moment and it remained that way for an extremely long time. Fast forward to WB in beta it was just god awful in pvp they buffed it and now its S+ tier, so within 6 weeks people want it nerfed.

I wont argue it needs some trimming but I hope Anet ignores any forum posters advice because the vast majority of them are either biased for there own classes or they are biased for Willbender, let them wittle down WB little by little as they usually do when there is a very strong class around.

I think people also dont realize how incredibly strong Harbinger and Untamed is at the moment and is on par imo with Willbender and i dont see a lot of screeching from the rooftops for them to be nerfed currently.

Harbingers are easy to focus and also what is the role of necro in sPvP? It is team fighter only and always will be. It's not a roamer, it's not a +1 profession, it's not a duelist, it's not a support because scourge is crap.

 

Guardian has 2 meta builds and 1 solid build for easy ranking who got indirectly buffed and now can run valk amulet (trapper dh). 

 

Willbender is a roamer, can 1vs1 anything in this meta, can +1, can help team fights tremendously being the best cleaver in game, can add good aoe cleanse and free stab that already a support guard is giving to the team. 

 

Necro can only run wurm, spectral walk and X utility, in this meta cpc.

And now only harbinger is viable, easy to focus and take down.

 

Untamed: probably in some good hands can be stronger than willbender, but it simply not played because it's way harder to pull off damage combos, more buttons to press than an elementalist, a full oneshot combo that can be avoided with a dodge, so why bother? Play willbender, press 2 buttons for the same damage of a full untamed combo and on a shorter cd and it's easier. Profit.

 

Having almost 3 meta builds from the same profession is such toxic in an mmo, when clearly you have a class that directly powercreep everything else.

 

Power herald received serious nerfs because how oppressive it was and overperforminh, and yet they made willbender a stronger power herald on steroids pre nerfs, good job anet with your always smart balance team.

[Jayrawrd.6109]

Anet will always keep their beloved guard and necro class meta, easy to play, and deal tons of dmg

Edited May 7, 2022 by Jayrawrd.6109

[otto.5684]

As a guardian main, who does not play WB in PvP, I find WB disappointing. The damage is easily avoidable, if you understand what is going on. Compared to dealing with herald or thief, this is cake walk. And it is susceptible to condi. Sadly, the meta does not have much condi builds.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

5 hours ago, myun.6395 said:

Harbingers are easy to focus and also what is the role of necro in sPvP? It is team fighter only and always will be. It's not a roamer, it's not a +1 profession, it's not a duelist, it's not a support because scourge is crap.

 

Guardian has 2 meta builds and 1 solid build for easy ranking who got indirectly buffed and now can run valk amulet (trapper dh). 

 

Willbender is a roamer, can 1vs1 anything in this meta, can +1, can help team fights tremendously being the best cleaver in game, can add good aoe cleanse and free stab that already a support guard is giving to the team. 

 

Necro can only run wurm, spectral walk and X utility, in this meta cpc.

And now only harbinger is viable, easy to focus and take down.

 

Untamed: probably in some good hands can be stronger than willbender, but it simply not played because it's way harder to pull off damage combos, more buttons to press than an elementalist, a full oneshot combo that can be avoided with a dodge, so why bother? Play willbender, press 2 buttons for the same damage of a full untamed combo and on a shorter cd and it's easier. Profit.

 

Having almost 3 meta builds from the same profession is such toxic in an mmo, when clearly you have a class that directly powercreep everything else.

 

Power herald received serious nerfs because how oppressive it was and overperforminh, and yet they made willbender a stronger power herald on steroids pre nerfs, good job anet with your always smart balance team.

Harbinger is a duelist, one of few that can kill Mech

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

3 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

As a guardian main, who does not play WB in PvP, I find WB disappointing. The damage is easily avoidable, if you understand what is going on. Compared to dealing with herald or thief, this is cake walk. And it is susceptible to condi. Sadly, the meta does not have much condi builds.

Wb is not weak to condi in any way

[Terrorhuz.4695]

17 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

You don't see much screeching about harb and untamed as willbender because a lot of people have legit blue class envy. They are mad fb is meta in pve. They are mad fb is meta in wvw. And they are mad core guard and now willy is meta in pvp. They even derisively joke about guard being anet's favorite class. 

They really just hate it whenever a guard spec is meta.

 

I don't hate when a guard spec is meta, since guard is ALWAYS meta. To answer your question, one of the reasons why I don't have a problem with untamed is because it's strong but it requires a brain to play. Not the case with current guardian, which is the reason why I just came out of a match with 4 willbenders and 1 support guardian.
Half of what I see in every match is kittening blue, and it's annoying because it's also unjustifiably effective for how easy it is.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

lol this has been the problem with teef since the game launched. too many teleports and in general classes with high mobility eliminate the defensive mechanic known as kiting. usually casters rely on kiting, and without it, playstyles and builds aren't viable. it was never a good idea to have such high mobility, and it ruins competitive play.