Roll back Feb 2020 to save pvp.

[Lucentfir.7430]

Sometimes seeing posts like OMG YOU WANT 10k Dodge rolls and to be completely busted with no skill one shot meta back! Makes me believe Spvp's current state and ever rapidly decreasing low population is all but deserved and honestly I hope it gets much lower and I hope all the classes you enjoy playing get nerf hammered by blessed CmC's hammer. Because apparently people that want a healthy balance of sensible changes for all classes don't exist. 

   The main gripe with the 2020 feb patch isn't the fact they decided to do large nerfs, there are things that are good to nerf but it was done in a dumb and terrible way in form of general blanket nerfs and not actually taking the time to fix root issues with classes, that actually needed some deep diving. Instead we got  slapping 300s icd on traits with promises to fix them/replace them with something else, which already 2 years have passed since then and basically just been on a train of whack-a-mole nerfing  and removal of options. A complete rollback isn't needed but some changes from back then need to be tossed out the window, but that would require Anet admitting they did a bad change which is something they never do. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Lucentfir.7430

[Bazsi.2734]

10 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

The oneshot builds are necessary to keep in check faceroll tank builds, Anet made the game simpler not healthier. It's like an eco system, removing the predators may look the best thing to watch...but then slowly but inevitably, the herbivores will end up consuming the entire resources capability of the entire eco-system, with nothing keeping in check their number...herbivores would just reproduce with no end in sight. 

One shot builds are a necessity...like faceroll tanks builds are...both keep the game in balance, by removing all oneshot builds...you just caused the number of necros to explode.

The Feb 2020 was not a balance patch...was a just an attempt to attract even more paying "whales" to the game and the result is...a never ending see of necros and guardians. If anything WvW would be a much better place if more oneshot builds would be available ......

The old deadeye could keep literally the entirety of EoD out of the meta. I'm talking 20K unblockable DJ-s, if anyone happened to forget.

I fail to see how oneshot builds are necessary. We have kits like S/D thief, hammer spellbreaker etc, which can wear bunkers down. And the nice thing about those kits, they are actually countered by many other roamer builds, while oneshot builds aren't.

So we have the options to make anti-bunker builds stronger without drowning diversity in oneshots... well tbh I do not trust the current devs to manage something like this, but the options are certainly there. The base this game is built upon is awesome.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

17 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

The old deadeye could keep literally the entirety of EoD out of the meta. I'm talking 20K unblockable DJ-s, if anyone happened to forget.

If it wasn't unblockable, it would have been totally fine. Especially before the deadeye rework.

It was the same deal with unblockable union soulbeast for a long while.

 

The problem wasn't the damage considering how squishy you have to build to get numbers like that. The problem was the lack of counterplay. Builds like that gave birth to the "just dodge 4head" meme and it was a good joke because there was some truth to it. 

The only option was dodge, invuln, or die. That isn't fun. But that's all that really needed to change. 

Really they should look at the functionality of skills more, rather than just the damage and cooldown. There won't be any creative changes so long as we consider damage shaves and waiting longer to be actual content worth getting excited over.

17 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

I fail to see how oneshot builds are necessary. We have kits like S/D thief, hammer spellbreaker etc, which can wear bunkers down. And the nice thing about those kits, they are actually countered by many other roamer builds, while oneshot builds aren't.

What game are you playing where s/d thief and hammer spellbreaker can wear down a bunker?

We're talking about PvP right? Not WvW? In PvP that is a process that can take well over 15 minutes with the current state of things. I don't know if you've played recently but half of the skills given by hammer on Spellbreaker do 0 damage.

And who wants to wear something down to begin with? If I sacrifice so much sustain that a strong gust of wind could probably send me flying, then the reward should be damage. Bunker-busting damage.

 

Its important because it creates an all new role called the ganker. They stop bunkers from being lazy all game & hopefully from existing period, and they are countered by roamers and CC lockdowns.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Yes pls, Feb patch was one of the worst things for this games pvp.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

10 hours ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

Sometimes seeing posts like OMG YOU WANT 10k Dodge rolls and to be completely busted with no skill one shot meta back! Makes me believe Spvp's current state and ever rapidly decreasing low population is all but deserved and honestly I hope it gets much lower and I hope all the classes you enjoy playing get nerf hammered by blessed CmC's hammer. Because apparently people that want a healthy balance of sensible changes for all classes don't exist. 

   The main gripe with the 2020 feb patch isn't the fact they decided to do large nerfs, there are things that are good to nerf but it was done in a dumb and terrible way in form of general blanket nerfs and not actually taking the time to fix root issues with classes, that actually needed some deep diving. Instead we got  slapping 300s icd on traits with promises to fix them/replace them with something else, which already 2 years have passed since then and basically just been on a train of whack-a-mole nerfing  and removal of options. A complete rollback isn't needed but some changes from back then need to be tossed out the window, but that would require Anet admitting they did a bad change which is something they never do. 

so, responding to me without quoting me. thats so passive aggressive. there were a ton of things pre megapatch that was total trash, and i'm not gonna sit here and argue the issue, you either remember or you don't. just because i'm glad those things are gone doesn't mean i somehow want the game to be in a bad state. there were plenty of bad changes in the megapatch and we need a general buff right now, not to everything, but a few key buffs to each weapon for starters.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

so, responding to me without quoting me. thats so passive aggressive. there were a ton of things pre megapatch that was total trash, and i'm not gonna sit here and argue the issue, you either remember or you don't. just because i'm glad those things are gone doesn't mean i somehow want the game to be in a bad state. there were plenty of bad changes in the megapatch and we need a general buff right now, not to everything, but a few key buffs to each weapon for starters.

And the 300s CD traits, and underpowered traitlines in general.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

8 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

If it wasn't unblockable, it would have been totally fine. Especially before the deadeye rework.

It was the same deal with unblockable union soulbeast for a long while.

if you're really ok with 20k DJ's then i'm glad you're so upset with the megapatch. that sort of damage made pvp a memefest cuz it gave the ability to any new player the ability to run up and be way more effective then they should be. and no, before you try and counter with the "so you think the bunker meta takes more skill" strawman, it obviously doesn't. the megapatch failed cuz anet didn't even attempt to find the middle ground like they said they would.

[Bazsi.2734]

9 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

What game are you playing where s/d thief and hammer spellbreaker can wear down a bunker?

We're talking about PvP right? Not WvW? In PvP that is a process that can take well over 15 minutes with the current state of things. I don't know if you've played recently but half of the skills given by hammer on Spellbreaker do 0 damage.

I agree that hammer spellbreaker is currently not a bunker buster, however that's the kits purpose. A-net just can't balance for sh*t, (it's been 3 years, I'm done being nice about it, get it togheter) so the most pvp oriented warrior kit is useless in PvP "at the moment".
 

However S/D thief is perfectly viable if you pair it with the damage modifs of deadeye. It's a working bunker-buster in the current meta.

 

9 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

And who wants to wear something down to begin with? If I sacrifice so much sustain that a strong gust of wind could probably send me flying, then the reward should be damage. Bunker-busting damage.

Everyone who even gave a miniscule amount of though would prefere wearing down targets to oneshotting them. Those who say they would like the latter, just oneshot them a few times and ask again.

If you have bunker-busting damage(not pressure, burst), then the game has no bunkers. There is no point investing into any forms of defense if even after going all the way to be unkillable, some random just erases you by punching their keyboard. To anyone still reading: if this still sounds like something you'd might be interested in, google counter strike. 
 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Bazsi.2734

[Kuma.1503]

Idk why people hate bunkers as much as they do. The point of circle quest is to stand in circles and the entire point of a bunker is to stand in a circle for as long as possible before someone kills you. 

Instead of removing bunkers, we need some actual PvP content. New game modes, new maps, new objectives to play for that reward different build archetypes. 

Even an old and crusty game like Summoners Rift LoL knows how to mix things up  with rotating game-modes and fundamental changes to the map itself. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Myror.7521]

@Kuma.1503 maybe because 2 bunker builds that couldnt kill each other isnt even close funny at all. Or builds that are so tanky that you couldnt even kill it with 2 peops ^^

[Lucentfir.7430]

2 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

so, responding to me without quoting me. thats so passive aggressive. there were a ton of things pre megapatch that was total trash, and i'm not gonna sit here and argue the issue, you either remember or you don't. just because i'm glad those things are gone doesn't mean i somehow want the game to be in a bad state. there were plenty of bad changes in the megapatch and we need a general buff right now, not to everything, but a few key buffs to each weapon for starters.

You aren't quoted because the post isn't aimed 'at you' specifically at all, it's a open post towards all the comments that want to jump to conclusions why people are so disagreeable with the 2020 patch in its entirety whenever this conversation is always brought up.  So good job outing yourself I hope you feel silly. Though feel free to call me passive aggressive, coming from the guy that wants to call people Nostradamus for going off Anet's track record since the beginning of this game.


Ofc you don't want things in a bad state because you play the game, just like everyone here it's a no brainer, but when you get nonsense changes and it gets support under the guise of  "Good for the game" because someone doesn't like it personally it's really hilarious to see the same people whining why the game mode is dying and why population is at a all time low. So much for 'good for the game'. Vague random general buffs and vague weapon buffs would be appreciated but honestly if we're going to continue stewing with bad blanket changes/letting the important stuff remaining unfixed. 💀

[Lucentfir.7430]

2 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Idk why people hate bunkers as much as they do. The point of circle quest is to stand in circles and the entire point of a bunker is to stand in a circle for as long as possible before someone kills you. 

Instead of removing bunkers, we need some actual PvP content. New game modes, new maps, new objectives to play for that reward different build archetypes. 

Even an old and crusty game like Summoners Rift LoL knows how to mix things up  with rotating game-modes and fundamental changes to the map itself. 

Can't have that because apparently conquest is better than every other possible game mode you can think of, because it has enormous gameplay depth, and if you put in another game modes it's going to take away from the already small population size of the 'bread and butter' game mode. 😀

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

All these complaining threads I keep getting in my news feed are so cringe lmao

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

6 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

I agree that hammer spellbreaker is currently not a bunker buster, however that's the kits purpose. A-net just can't balance for sh*t, (it's been 3 years, I'm done being nice about it, get it togheter) so the most pvp oriented warrior kit is useless in PvP "at the moment".
 

However S/D thief is perfectly viable if you pair it with the damage modifs of deadeye. It's a working bunker-buster in the current meta.

Viable, yes. Somehow I seriously doubt their bunker-busting capabilities though.

We have a bunch of 'professional' deadeye players on NA and some of them do occasionally run S/D but I have 3.3k armor and 20k HP. Even with their one skill that avoided getting nerfed; bless it, it only have a base power coefficient of 1.3 and that's their highest damaging skill. Good luck.

That's about the same damage as a fully charged dragon Dragon Slash - Force(🤡balance)  and I can safely say after fighting a good Bladesworn after 30 minutes straight that Dragon Flash - Force tickles.

You've told me of your plight, and now I want to buff you.

6 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

 

Everyone who even gave a miniscule amount of though would prefere wearing down targets to oneshotting them. Those who say they would like the latter, just oneshot them a few times and ask again.

If you have bunker-busting damage(not pressure, burst), then the game has no bunkers. There is no point investing into any forms of defense if even after going all the way to be unkillable, some random just erases you by punching their keyboard. To anyone still reading: if this still sounds like something you'd might be interested in, google counter strike. 
 

It is perfectly fine for the game to have no bunkers. Bunkers should not even exist.

Supports should be able to fill that role to keep up with changing damage. Supports at least contribute something else to their team, whereas bunkers are selfish and literally designed to waste people's time. It's a bit cruel, and its biological warfare if you think about it.

8 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

if you're really ok with 20k DJ's then i'm glad you're so upset with the megapatch. that sort of damage made pvp a memefest cuz it gave the ability to any new player the ability to run up and be way more effective then they should be.

Yeah, i'm cool with that. Heck yeah I am. Maybe then I could invite a friend to play this game without it coming off as an insult.

If there's one thing new players hate more than being 1-shotted, its contracting carpal tunnel while they hack away at an immortal bunker for the majority of a match.

8 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

and no, before you try and counter with the "so you think the bunker meta takes more skill" strawman, it obviously doesn't. the megapatch failed cuz anet didn't even attempt to find the middle ground like they said they would.

Well now I can't reist.  In the industry we often refer to these as 'skill issues.'

Memes aside, the megapatch was doomed from the very start. Regardless of what people say with their fingers, losing things feels bad. Gaining things feels good. That's just the human condition. It has 0 to do with skill.

[otto.5684]

Ya, spvp before Feb 2020 was so much better. I think this ship has sailed. The first thing is to change the spvp balance team. Maybe then there is a chance.

[Copyright.9082]

10 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

Ya, spvp before Feb 2020 was so much better. I think this ship has sailed. The first thing is to change the spvp balance team. Maybe then there is a chance.

Joke is on you. There is no pvp balance team. 

 

There is a "skill team" for the entire game and there is cmc who just tweeks number around for pvp. 

[fooyungdriver.6980]

Part of the reason you see the same 3 professions dominating the meta in whatever flavor is on top that season just has to do with the fundamental design of these professions. Pvp balance was not the primary factor in the core design - it was all about theme and making each profession's game play feel totally unique. It's the same idea behind the elite specializations. Design first balance later. 

 

I love sPvP and spend 90% + of my in-game time in that game mode (often playing as a non-meta spec ele), but I truly believe it would be bad for the game as a whole for Pvp balance to be given more weight than engaging or unique mechanics for (especially new) players to engage with. For those of us who Pvp, we just have to deal with that. 

 

I'm not saying they can't do more to show us some love, especially if they want pvp to be an important part of the GW experience, but Pvp balance is something any MMO struggles with. That's why ESO and FF hardly bother with it. Guild War's chosen path with E-specs is going to make it particularly difficult for Anet, but at least they decided they wanted robust pvp game modes in their game at all. Also we are still pretty early into EOD so let's just keep complaining and I'm sure in 4 years things will be better ;) 

[Fueki.4753]

50 minutes ago, fooyungdriver.6980 said:

I love sPvP and spend 90% + of my in-game time in that game mode (often playing as a non-meta spec ele), but I truly believe it would be bad for the game as a whole for Pvp balance to be given more weight than engaging or unique mechanics for (especially new) players to engage with. For those of us who Pvp, we just have to deal with that.

However, there's a difference between simply prioritizing something else and giving not a single kitten about something.

Arenanet has put sPvP firmly in the latter category. They don't even try anymore.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

Il do you one better. Take it back to Pre HoT. When the game was actually fun 🙂 Even silly builds could be played. Now theres just to much bs ontop of bs.

[Voltage.8027]

On 5/18/2022 at 8:41 AM, Fueki.4753 said:

While I wouldn't roll back the entire patch, certain things should be undone, specifically the removal of damage on CC abilities.

Instead of taking away the damage, Arenanet should have made CC effects less oppressive by giving players Defiance bars. The disgustingly high amount of CC is the problem, not those abilities dealing damage.

Also makes sense lore-wise, since us player characters would basically be fractal, strike, or raid bosses if we were npcs. 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

17 hours ago, fooyungdriver.6980 said:

Part of the reason you see the same 3 professions dominating the meta in whatever flavor is on top that season just has to do with the fundamental design of these professions. Pvp balance was not the primary factor in the core design - it was all about theme and making each profession's game play feel totally unique. It's the same idea behind the elite specializations. Design first balance later. 

 

I love sPvP and spend 90% + of my in-game time in that game mode (often playing as a non-meta spec ele), but I truly believe it would be bad for the game as a whole for Pvp balance to be given more weight than engaging or unique mechanics for (especially new) players to engage with. For those of us who Pvp, we just have to deal with that. 

 

I'm not saying they can't do more to show us some love, especially if they want pvp to be an important part of the GW experience, but Pvp balance is something any MMO struggles with. That's why ESO and FF hardly bother with it. Guild War's chosen path with E-specs is going to make it particularly difficult for Anet, but at least they decided they wanted robust pvp game modes in their game at all. Also we are still pretty early into EOD so let's just keep complaining and I'm sure in 4 years things will be better 😉

This kind of comment is uninformed. There’s many things wrong with what you said…but the biggest issue is that it’s obfuscated by what seems to be perfectly logical reasoning…but it’s wrong.
 

Another issue is that such statements are hard to argue over because there are so many facets to the problem here…but let’s at least try to target something specific so we can get a basic picture for why your logic is flawed:

let’s say we took the philosophy you are propositioning for to it’s logical extreme: Classes are too unique so let’s make classes way less unique (completely standardized) and put balance (of numbers) first and foremost.

 

You can ask what is the logical end to such a philosophy… then the flaw in the logic becomes obvious: when everything is the same and perfectly balanced, there is no actual choice.
 

If you think about this for a long time, the flaw in the logic there reveals way deeper levels for why this game fails at achieving balance and diverse set of choices…that reason is related to how fast (the time it takes) for players to sift through choices and evaluate them.

 

Quick example : What’s 2+2?

 

That was a quick answer right…but now I ask: What’s The square root of 3^2\2?

 

The question is still pretty simple but it took you a little bit longer to figure that one out.

 

But now I ask you a question that’s formally undecidable like asking you: What is the final state of Rule 30? Such a question can’t be computed in any finite set of time and so you will forever be computing trying to figure out the answer.

 

Guild Wars 2 skills sit somewhere in this spectrum, and arguably where most of them sit is in the first category: it’s too easy to sift through choices and evaluate them objectively into things that are good and things that are not…and the reason is because of how they are designed like this.
 

If I give you two choices in skills, where skill A does 400 damage, and skill B does 600 damage…then that’s a pretty easy to figure out calculation and you now have an objective means for deciding that B is better than A. Thus skill B becomes meta and it does so very fast.

 

but say I offered you two skills where their mechanics might be formerly undecidable…For example: Skill A does X damage based on Skill B’s Cooldown Y. Skill B’s Cooldown Y increases based on Skill A’s damage X.
 

 

although I’m not sure if it’s undecidable (I’m in bed can hardly bother to check atm) but in essence the skills above can’t be solved by any simple evaluation, as it depends on a calculation that’s sensitive to initial conditions. In this way, there is no way to determine whether skill A is better or worse than Skill B…so it then becomes diverse meta…in the sense that you will see both skills being used (in a complex fashion) forever…this is what balance really is, and the kind of balance that exists in the world…through this mechanism.

 

So like I imagined this comment is getting extremely long…but the point is that the your comment is…deeply flawed.  Even though it sounds intuitive and sounds reasonable they are the kind of red herrings that people initially fell for that led to the February patch to begin with. The problem with not just EOD but every spec is how poorly they are designed in the sense described above…and it’s been a problem ever since Guild Wars 2’s inception. The nerfs (and attempted numerical balance) don’t alleviate these problems…they make them worse.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[FarmBotXD.1430]

I fairly sure pve balance team would make a better pvp then CMC at this point lol.