Why keep pitting different groups of players against each other?

[Dante.1508]

14 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Fully agreed. I wanted to point out that mixing different subcommunities within the game is possible and can be positive.

That it's not inherent hatred between different parts of the community. But negative dynamics that result out of how people are pushed to play together that necessarily leads to frustration and bad experiences. 

It might be but i've never really seen a positive from it, its usually a negative, people here state its all roses and candy then when you actually participate its a mess and very toxic. 99.9% of the time.

[Erise.5614]

3 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

It might be but i've never really seen a positive from it, its usually a negative, people here state its all roses and candy then when you actually participate its a mess and very toxic. 99.9% of the time.

Do you have an example of those guild led meta event trains turning toxic?

[Quench.7091]

Obsidian Sanctum is kind of in a weird spot. It has had a problem with toxicity since the launch, but it's dead content with not very great rewards. It was finetuned around out of combat movement speed, never took into consideration combat movement speed, and now we have newer mechanics that allow for progressing through the puzzle while flagged for combat. It has a stealth mechanic, but the mechanic breaks if you take damage and painter traps can still be placed in the zone. I've got mixed feelings about it.

Chances are that you'll be within the puzzle all alone. Serious WvW players usually only go there for their guild missions. Guilds sometimes use a mesmer to port all of their players up to the top. It's one of the easiest to solo guild missions. If you know it's a guild mission, there's probably a mesmer you can hitch a ride from.

[Astralporing.1957]

11 minutes ago, Quench.7091 said:

It has a stealth mechanic, but the mechanic breaks if you take damage and painter traps can still be placed in the zone.

Unless something has changed in the last years, it's not just painter traps. During the original run of that LS i remember whole zerg having to make one of the final ascents (the path up the walls from the inside of a "colliseum") under the fire of several arrow carts. Wasn't fun at all.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Quench.7091]

13 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Unless something has changed in the last years, it's not just painter traps. During the original run of that LS i remember whole zerg having to make one of the final ascents (the path up the walls from the inside of a "colliseum") under the fire of several arrow carts. Wasn't fun at all.

They added the Siege Deployment Blocked debuff to the zone, because it was just that toxic. It was happening back when players could only carry 5 supplies, too. That means it took  8  6 supply runs to create those basic arrow carts. That's how dedicated people were to that level of toxicity.

Edit: Oops, forgot it used to be 30 supplies per cart back then.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Quench.7091

[Astralporing.1957]

@Quench.7091

Good to hear that. I still remember a lot of not-so-nice situations in there that did not involve a siege, but with it added to the picture it just was so much worse.

[Beddo.1907]

I play WvW and yet when I was doing the Obsidian sanctum every single player just minded their own business. It was no different than any other pve map.

[Hesione.9412]

39 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

I play WvW and yet when I was doing the Obsidian sanctum every single player just minded their own business. It was no different than any other pve map.

And other players have reported problems. In all sincerity, I am pleased you had no problems. Other players, however, are.

[Quench.7091]

Heads up to people looking for WvW guild groups for this puzzle! I see no WvW Challenge mission up in my WvW guild panel. Probably won't happen upon any mesmers this week. The good news is that it also means that the puzzle might be more empty.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Quench.7091

[Fuchslein.8639]

2 hours ago, Quench.7091 said:

They added the Siege Deployment Blocked debuff to the zone, because it was just that toxic. It was happening back when players could only carry 5 supplies, too. That means it took  8  6 supply runs to create those basic arrow carts. That's how dedicated people were to that level of toxicity.

Edit: Oops, forgot it used to be 30 supplies per cart back then.

This is so crazy how much time and energy people spend to troll. Feel bad for the life these people must have ...

[Raizel.8175]

On 5/29/2022 at 2:37 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's not new. Like you said, it goes back to LS1. Somehow at some point long ago Anet got the idea that mixing players with completely different playstyles together will make them "widen their horizons", and will have no negative consequences whatsoever. And now, after many, many years of constantly being shown that it works the exact opposite, they still think that if they only try it once again, this time it will work out differently.

I could mention a certain famous Einstein quote here, but instead i will just use a different one: Experience is a wonderful thing. It lets us recognize a mistake after we have done it again.

Ever thought that that famous sentence you initially wanted to quote may rather apply to people like yourself instead of the developers? It's not the developers fault that people limit themselves to a fragment of GW2s content. Since we're already quoting famous sentences and the like: Ever heard of Platons Parable of the Cave? Perfectly fits the occasion.

On 5/29/2022 at 2:49 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's the point - they didn't. they no longer mix PvE and PvP players together, but that's primarily because their interest in PvP content has waned. Instead, their new modus operandi is mixing more casual players with more hardcore ones. DE being the lastest (but not the only) example - there's also stuff like needing strikes for turtle, etc.

That's normal and healthy for MMORPGs. You need crossover points for subcommunities so the community as a whole doesn't fragment further. You also don't need to be a hardcore person to be successful in content like DE or Strike Missions (especially the first three EoD strikes) - those only require very basic knowledge about fundamental game mechanics.

On 5/29/2022 at 11:33 AM, Chichimec.9364 said:

What also doesn't work is trying to force people into content harder than they can or want to deal with.

The problem isn't the "can", it's the "want". People got away with effortless gameplay in open world content for years and sadly got used to it. You can participate in an abundance of open world content while having that open world content as "second monitor content" whereas the usual "second monitor content" basically turns into "first monitor content". That's not really healthy for a game.

On 5/29/2022 at 11:33 AM, Chichimec.9364 said:

Why alienate players, either casual or hardcore, rather than keeping clearly defined content available for everyone?

DE is perfectly doable by casual players. Again: the problem is the "want". DE - as stated above - only requires very basic knowledge about fundamental game mechanics.

[Chichimec.9364]

2 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

...You need crossover points for subcommunities so the community as a whole doesn't fragment further...

Why? I don't do raids or high level fractals. Why do I need crossover points with those sub-communities? If there are such crossover points, why shouldn't they be optional instead of forced?

 

2 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

The problem isn't the "can", it's the "want"...DE is perfectly doable by casual players. Again: the problem is the "want". DE - as stated above - only requires very basic knowledge about fundamental game mechanics.

That assumes everyone is on the same level playing field and that is a false assumption. "Can" is a very real issue for some folks. I am 73 years old, with emphysema, sleep apnea, and congestive heart failure. Those health issues leave me with sluggish response times and very slow hand/eye coordination. There are very real physical limitations on how "gud" I can "git". Dodging may be a simple game mechanic for most people, but it is not simple or easy for me, to give only one example.

Saying "want" is the problem is also problematic. Different people want different things, ingame, just like in real life. Some people want hard, challenging content. Some don't. And remember, something may be easy or basic for you while being hard and challenging for me. Back in the day, irl, I used to be an adrenaline junkie. The more high intensity/high risk something was, the more I came alive and thrived on it. That was a long, long time ago though. These days I want easy, relaxed, and casual. There has been space for me, and folks like me, in Tyria but Anet seems to be moving in a direction that may end up pushing me out of their game and that saddens me.

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Chichimec.9364

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

It's not the developers fault that people limit themselves to a fragment of GW2s content.

Quite the opposite. If you are a developer in a game with certain population, you design that game for that population. Not for some fictional population you would want to have (but don't). If devs try to force content on your players that your players won't like, it is the devs fault, not the players.

 

3 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Since we're already quoting famous sentences and the like: Ever heard of Platons Parable of the Cave? Perfectly fits the occasion.

It does not. Unlike you try to present it, players for the most part dislike other modes not because they don't know them, but because they do.

3 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

That's normal and healthy for MMORPGs. You need crossover points for subcommunities so the community as a whole doesn't fragment further.

Nice argument in theory. In practice however forcing players into such "crossover" points actually increases that kind of fragmentation to even greater degree. We've had almost 10 years of GW2's history to see this.

3 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

You also don't need to be a hardcore person to be successful in content like DE or Strike Missions (especially the first three EoD strikes) - those only require very basic knowledge about fundamental game mechanics.

If that was true, the success rates of non-hardcore groups would be way, way greater. Meanwhile, at least for DE, they are near zero. For strikes it is higher, but that's because most of the OW players don't even try them.

3 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

The problem isn't the "can", it's the "want". People got away with effortless gameplay in open world content for years and sadly got used to it. You can participate in an abundance of open world content while having that open world content as "second monitor content" whereas the usual "second monitor content" basically turns into "first monitor content". That's not really healthy for a game.

On the contrary, every attempt to force players into more demanding play so far has caused far more damage to the game than it improved things.

It's not that the players got used to this type of play and so don't want to improve. It's that this game is mostly played by people that like this kind of gameplay. You won't change the way those people play. At best, you might change the players. Literally - get rid of actual casual playerbase, and hope that maybe more challenge-driven players will show up to fill the void (good luck with that, by the way).

[SlateSloan.3654]

ayo the problem is the way to easy open world pve where people just 11111 through the trash mobs and think that they are good players cause of that. then they go this unprepared into group content and suddenly realise that they arent the good players they always think they are and ofc dont want to admit it but instead its everbody elses fault.

for pvp we usually see those peeps yelling "pvp requires no skill" cause they think they are so good themselfes that noone can beat them and if it happens the game is "for noobs anyways" or some even pull the "unbalanced" card to feel better instead of thinking about why they got wiped and come back stronger than before.

Win or loss in spvp or wvw indeed is decided mainly by player skill.

Again, the too easy open world pve causes that people have false pictures about themselfes.

In GW1 the standart map pve has had small groups of enemies which where actually using different skills with each others so if you where just unprepared you could wipe on certain corners which had more difficult npc combos. Or e.g. while you traveled the map you came across some water where suddenly some 4-5 ele djiin and a djinn boss spawned which used hard searing flames ele attacks and could just wipe your 8 man group if you just tried to randomly push into them. It required more positioning tactics, skill usage and build combos and it actually made sense to play with guildies in the normal pve maps.

The usual average gaming skills in community in gw1 have been way higher than in gw2 because the design of the standart game ensured for this. And because of the community in gw1 had way more game knowledge people had it easier to peek into different game modes.

Yes, I am a hungry charr and I hide in obsidian sanctum in the dark. I wont tell what server I am on so watch your steps I could already stand behind you. Dont turn around or will you? Maybe I come from far? Did you just hear anything? Do you dare to light your torch? How will you decide? raaawwrrr!

Edited May 30, 2022 by SlateSloan.3654

[Kozumi.5816]

On 5/28/2022 at 6:22 PM, Hesione.9412 said:

We had the DE meta - casual players versus players who want organised runs with sub squads and don't want casual players

 

We now have:

OS for the 2nd episode of LS1 - casual and/or PvE players versus WvW or PvP players

 

Why keep forcing two sets of players to combine in the same area? Is this the new path for GW2?

They think forcing different play style of players to play together will be a good idea.

Not everyone in the sandbox wants to play with each other, Anet.

  

On 5/29/2022 at 4:21 AM, Cuks.8241 said:

You do understand this is not new content? Its LS1. 

People want LS1. Anet gives LS1. People complain. 

An extreme minority  wanted LS1. Anyone who played LS1 knows how much it sucked and didn't want it.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[Dante.1508]

17 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Do you have an example of those guild led meta event trains turning toxic?

Yes many times in DE after a fail people abusing the commander or people not participating.. Usually me just trying to do my story sometimes.

I was abused in drizzle coast for not being a team player as i was following my story quest..

Everyone complains WvW gets no love and why no one wants to do it, yet every time people get forced in there they get griefed and then no one wants to go back, Same with PvP and even raiding to a point.

 

I actually left GW2 after a year and a half the first time because of LS1, i never actually completed it it was so bad.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Ashantara.8731]

On 5/29/2022 at 12:22 AM, Hesione.9412 said:

We now have:

OS for the 2nd episode of LS1 - casual and/or PvE players versus WvW or PvP players

Okay, first off, what does "OS" stand for in this context?

And second question: what did I miss about the current release? There is nothing difficult about LWS1 E2, so...?

  

1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

An extreme minority  wanted LS1. Anyone who played LS1 knows how much it sucked and didn't want it.

Wow. It shouldn't make a difference whether you liked it or not. The story should be available in its entirety, not with a vital part missing.

I for one applaud the effort the devs put into restoring Season 1.

P.S. You don't have numbers to prove your claim about the majority of players hating LWS1. Most people I play with love having it back. The only thing that was disliked at the time "by the majority" was the waiting around for an event to happen or personally not being available at the event times, thus missing out on chapters of the story.
 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[Hesione.9412]

38 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Okay, first off, what does "OS" stand for in this context?

And second question: what did I miss about the current release? There is nothing difficult about LWS1 E2, so...?

  

Wow. It shouldn't make a difference whether you liked it or not. The story should be available in its entirety, not with a vital part missing.

I for one applaud the effort the devs put into restoring Season 1.

P.S. You don't have numbers to prove your claim about the majority of players hating LWS1. Most people I play with love having it back. The only thing that was disliked at the time "by the majority" was the waiting around for an event to happen or personally not being available at the event times, thus missing out on chapters of the story.
 

Obsidian Sanctum.

[mindcircus.1506]

2 hours ago, SlateSloan.3654 said:

Win or loss in spvp or wvw indeed is decided mainly by player skill.

With regard to WvW:
Untrue.
Build and gear are much more important in WvW than any other game mode. This is why WvW specific guilds usually mandate new players to run, gear and learn very specific builds.
Skill is certainly a large component of the small scale roaming game, but as soon as you are talking about groups larger than 7-8 people (the vast majority of WvW play), the only skill involved is typically positioning, staying on tag, and fufilling your role.
While certainly more difficult than the vast majority of PvE content, "stack on tag" is not what I would call skill expression.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Designating oneself as "Casual" should not be a free pass to not knowing how your skills or your class works. If you step into a dungeon, or WvW, or raid, without any preparation on the matter, then you just need to own your own results.

Some of these min-maxer toxic "elitists" even came up with low intensity builds that are widely accessible. And those that could think for themselves would realize that taking the extra defensive skill or trait for a small damage loss is not the end of the world or even detectable.

Yes the game made a lot of mistakes, and S1 happened to have had some things that did not age well. But for the most part you can get most of what you want in this game given enough effort. And this is true even in WvW.

If one decides to pull out their hair over the tiny bit of content that isn't a guaranteed success, well, that's on you.

And FWIW, I have never asked for anyone to be excluded from any party unless they were:

1.) AFK and/or not on the same map, with no response.

2.) Unable to read an LFG.

3.) Being rude.

And believe it or not, I've actually never flamed anyone in-game that was only minding their own business; sometimes there's that passive aggressive comment but hey nobody's perfect.  Now of course, if you want to start something, that's another story. 😉

I do have to say that this game does take extraordinary steps to prevent conflict with stuff like shared nodes and usually having extra players joining be helpful. It's also why the epic failures like "failing events for rewards" stand out so much to the point where they are considered offensive. It's not the norm by any means.

But other times, players really need to chill. The old Queensdale Champion train was a good example of toxicity over something rearlly stupid. Is the loss of a few gold of potential profit really worth starting a scene for?

Also, folks. Please remember what it was like to be  a new player. It can be very overwhelming and they may not be paying attention to the chat. I've seen some very inappropriate treatment towards players that may not just know any better. It is extremely pathetic to see these veterans picking on them just because their loot schedule was interrupted.

So LS1. I didn't really care for it, and I'm glad people did get their wish, but hopefully more effort is taken to not repeat past mistakes. Again.

edit: I hate Obsidian Sanctum myself. But I just don't like JPs. What exactly do you get for doing it? Is it one of those collections that requires you to do everything?

Edited May 31, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Tukaram.8256]

On 5/29/2022 at 6:22 AM, Hesione.9412 said:

We had the DE meta - casual players versus players who want organised runs with sub squads and don't want casual players

 

We now have:

OS for the 2nd episode of LS1 - casual and/or PvE players versus WvW or PvP players

 

Why keep forcing two sets of players to combine in the same area? Is this the new path for GW2?

I do not know anything about LS1, as I rarely play the story. I prefer open world exploring... but... game designers seem to keep trying to build a game for the audience they want, or are themselves, and not for the audience they actually have.  Rarely do the different playstyles work well together.  It has always been that way. Back in 1997, when Richard Garriott foolishly overestimated players maturity with his original Ultima Online rules, he was shocked at how poorly the PvP and PvM crowd got along.  Players quickly sunk to the lowest common denominator and reveled in their anonymity. It has been a constant problem with most games ever since. 

PvP and PvE do not mix and they need to quit trying to force them together. A PvPer should not have to PvE for some silly carrot, and PvE should not have to PvP. The option is there for anyone that wants it, but trying to force it has never worked. They are really two very different audiences, for the most part. For GW2 I would add most instanced content, like fractals, strikes, whatever. Luckily there is no loot/pet that is worth getting into that for me. If I cannot get it in the open world, I really do not care, and do not 'need' it. 

 

7 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Designating oneself as "Casual" should not be a free pass to not knowing how your skills or your class works. If you step into a dungeon, or WvW, or raid, without any preparation on the matter, then you just need to own your own results.

As a casual player I do not play WvW, PvP, fractals, dungeons etc.  I know enough of my build for open world exploring and that is all I need (or care) to know. 😎

[Kozumi.5816]

3 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

The story should be available in its entirety, not with a vital part missing.

Yes.

 

3 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

P.S. You don't have numbers to prove your claim about the majority of players hating LWS1. Most people I play with love having it back. The only thing that was disliked at the time "by the majority" was the waiting around for an event to happen or personally not being available at the event times, thus missing out on chapters of the story.

LS1 is regarded as one of the biggest mistakes in MMO history. Even the devs regret the blunder that was LS1. It nearly killed this game.

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

3 minutes ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

As a casual player I do not play WvW, PvP, fractals, dungeons etc.  I know enough of my build for open world exploring and that is all I need (or care) to know.

And there's nothing wrong with that. 

I don't pvp myself, because I don't care to learn about it or how skills work in there. But if I go in there and get flattened, that's on me.

  

1 minute ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

LS1 is regarded as one of the biggest mistakes in MMO history. Even the devs regret the blunder that was LS1. It nearly killed this game.

Really? Any source on that?

Edited May 31, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Hesione.9412]

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Designating oneself as "Casual" should not be a free pass to not knowing how your skills or your class works. If you step into a dungeon, or WvW, or raid, without any preparation on the matter, then you just need to own your own results.

Some of these min-maxer toxic "elitists" even came up with low intensity builds that are widely accessible. And those that could think for themselves would realize that taking the extra defensive skill or trait for a small damage loss is not the end of the world or even detectable.

Yes the game made a lot of mistakes, and S1 happened to have had some things that did not age well. But for the most part you can get most of what you want in this game given enough effort. And this is true even in WvW.

If one decides to pull out their hair over the tiny bit of content that isn't a guaranteed success, well, that's on you.

And FWIW, I have never asked for anyone to be excluded from any party unless they were:

1.) AFK and/or not on the same map, with no response.

2.) Unable to read an LFG.

3.) Being rude.

And believe it or not, I've actually never flamed anyone in-game that was only minding their own business; sometimes there's that passive aggressive comment but hey nobody's perfect.  Now of course, if you want to start something, that's another story. 😉

I do have to say that this game does take extraordinary steps to prevent conflict with stuff like shared nodes and usually having extra players joining be helpful. It's also why the epic failures like "failing events for rewards" stand out so much to the point where they are considered offensive. It's not the norm by any means.

But other times, players really need to chill. The old Queensdale Champion train was a good example of toxicity over something rearlly stupid. Is the loss of a few gold of potential profit really worth starting a scene for?

Also, folks. Please remember what it was like to be  a new player. It can be very overwhelming and they may not be paying attention to the chat. I've seen some very inappropriate treatment towards players that may not just know any better. It is extremely pathetic to see these veterans picking on them just because their loot schedule was interrupted.

So LS1. I didn't really care for it, and I'm glad people did get their wish, but hopefully more effort is taken to not repeat past mistakes. Again.

edit: I hate Obsidian Sanctum myself. But I just don't like JPs. What exactly do you get for doing it? Is it one of those collections that requires you to do everything?

I believe it is for LS1 Ep 2 mastery. I haven't unlocked it yet, as I am still finishing up Ep 1 with my partner. 

[AgentMoore.9453]

Thread title: Why is ArenaNet pitting different types of players against one another?
Thread replies: Different types of players pitted against one another.

It's not difficult to see that this isn't working out well even here in the smallness of the forum petri dish, so I'm not sure why the company thought it'd work across the entire game. I'd love if the peace and harmony and miraculous self-improvement people talk about was actually happening on the broad scales claimed, but mostly I just see players getting frustrated (with themselves/others) and either burning out, ignoring large portions of the game, or abandoning it entirely.

I think it's pretty well understood that players aren't helplessly wandering around the game waiting to be told what content to play, so this idea that they need to be nudged to try new things has always struck me as pretty silly. People have tried these new things over the years and discovered whether they like them or not. Continuing to insist that people 'try it again, you'll like it this time!' by blurring the lines of PvP/PvE/OW/Raids is a doomed effort and a waste of those precious development resources everyone would like 'spent on something else'.

Informing new players that different types of content exist? Aces. Trying to tell them what they should enjoy after having nearly a decade's worth of available content with which to figure it out for themselves? Good luck.