Would you be ok with an in-game DPS-meter if it only showed your own numbers?

[Silent.6137]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

But.. I do. Isn't it funny how you're avoiding what I say "because it's just back and forth", but all you do instead is repeating "because you don't understand"? I mean, what you said in your posts is clear and leaves little to misinterpret, no matter how many times you'l run from it. If you're not interested in responding, then at least stop pretending I'm the one that misinterprets your posts here 😄

 

Anyways you have no rights to decide what another player looks at ingame, you're free to not want people look at what your character does, but it doesn't really mean anything when you're deciding to play an mmorpg game.

Refer to my previous post for my response.

[Sobx.1758]

51 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

Refer to my previous post for my response.

Yeah... same, except this time please don't dodge major parts of them because you want to run from your own words. It's unreasonable to expect having right/power to tell other players what they can look at in an online game. My character did it, so don't look at it is just a rather unrealistic expectation to have.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Tukaram.8256]

5 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Wouldn't having this data available be used as a gate-keeper to content, similar to asking people to show kill proof and such?  Do we need yet another factor in that regard?

Yes. It will only be used to see if you are l33t enough to play  on my super cool team. I never heard of ARC until I came to the forums, and it should not be allowed.  If ANet wants to show me my DPS, they can add it to my hero panel. Otherwise I will never know it. And no one should be able to see another player's stats. 

[Zera.9435]

I don't care either way. My DPS can be 50 bajillion per second and it STILL wouldn't be high enough, so it doesn't matter. DPS meters serve basically no purpose other than to facilitate kitten measuring contests. If you ever wonder where your DPS is at, the answer will ALWAYS be the same: not high enough.

[Dante.1508]

I guess.. I could finally see how much damage i actually really do, which i guess is nice.. But it would have to support condi and power builds.

1 hour ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

Yes. It will only be used to see if you are l33t enough to play  on my super cool team. I never heard of ARC until I came to the forums, and it should not be allowed.  If ANet wants to show me my DPS, they can add it to my hero panel. Otherwise I will never know it. And no one should be able to see another player's stats. 

I 100% agree if arc is being used to limit players by seeing how much damage other players are doing it needs to go immediately. that is abuse.

Yet another reason to stay away from raids.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Dante.1508

[White Kitsunee.4620]

I would enjoy the game significantly more if something like this was around, but the community in general is so aggressively against towards any ideas like this and the amount of people that would get a lot of enjoyment out of the system these days are fairly small. So it would probably be a net-loss since most of the player-base will dislike the addition, which will bring down the enjoyment of the game as a whole.
Sad to say that tools for understanding the game better would have a negative reception but it is what it is. Anet should focus on making slower, more difficult open world content that players will want to improve in the first place before they do something like this.

[Abnaxos.4305]

I think we all agree that DPS meters are a double-edged sword: on one hand, they can be a useful tool to gauge oneself's DPS, on the other hand, they're a very common source of toxicity.

 

ESO (without add-ons) has a nice approach: when the player starts hitting a target dummy, the game starts recording. When the target dummy is down, it shows a summary of the DPS in the chat. This way, players can gauge their raw baseline DPS and the effects of equipment/build changes. For more realistic numbers, people can team up: one hits the dummy and others give the boons.

 

In the actual encounter, the players "just" have to keep that DPS up while also doing mechanics. This is of course easier said than done, it's the core of the game. 🙂 Figuring out why the group wiped, even though everyone's baseline DPS is good enough in theory, is the fun part.

 

I think, ESO's solution effectively provides the useful part of the tool, the one we actually need, but avoids everything else. It's very pragmatic and elegant, IMHO.

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Abnaxos.4305 said:

I think we all agree that DPS meters are a double-edged sword: on one hand, they can be a useful tool to gauge oneself's DPS, on the other hand, they're a very common source of toxicity.

 

ESO (without add-ons) has a nice approach: when the player starts hitting a target dummy, the game starts recording. When the target dummy is down, it shows a summary of the DPS in the chat. This way, players can gauge their raw baseline DPS and the effects of equipment/build changes. For more realistic numbers, people can team up: one hits the dummy and others give the boons.

 

In the actual encounter, the players "just" have to keep that DPS up while also doing mechanics. This is of course easier said than done, it's the core of the game. 🙂 Figuring out why the group wiped, even though everyone's baseline DPS is good enough in theory, is the fun part.

 

I think, ESO's solution effectively provides the useful part of the tool, the one we actually need, but avoids everything else. It's very pragmatic and elegant, IMHO.

We already have this it is called special forces training area.

[Zunki.3916]

Make it a 2 tier JadeBot Module, tier 1 shows dps numbers to yourself, tier 2 lets you see all the numbers of everyone in the grp with a t2 module.

[Nephalem.8921]

14 hours ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

Yes. It will only be used to see if you are l33t enough to play  on my super cool team. I never heard of ARC until I came to the forums, and it should not be allowed.  If ANet wants to show me my DPS, they can add it to my hero panel. Otherwise I will never know it. And no one should be able to see another player's stats. 

Extremely selfish and short sighted point of view. Imagine you are in a group and struggle really hard to kill a boss. damage too low so you start replacing the tempest because in theory tempest does low damage. but what if the tempest was top dps and the 3 scourges did 2k each? no way to tell without a dps meter. this happened before dps meters. you just kicked necros, rangers etc instead of fixing the issue.

Also another very important part. raids are not about you. they are a team effort. some players spend a lot of time improving dps, heal or boons while others don't care at all but are also always the players who want to hide their stats so they can still get a free carry.

Don't play team games if you don't want to be a team player.

13 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

I guess.. I could finally see how much damage i actually really do, which i guess is nice.. But it would have to support condi and power builds.

I 100% agree if arc is being used to limit players by seeing how much damage other players are doing it needs to go immediately. that is abuse.

Yet another reason to stay away from raids.

How is it abuse to know how much each group member is contributing to the party? Aren't you abusing 9 other players when you are contributing nothing and still expect them to carry you?

Ever played sports? Every team game in existence monitors your performance because its not fun for 1-2 people to do everything and you still want to win.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Nephalem.8921

[Teratus.2859]

Yes, I would be ok with that.

 

If something like a DPS meter is to be validated within the community then it must be something integrated into the game itself.

Reliance on 3rd party software for features like this (such as ArkDPS) is not and should not ever be pushed as a mandatory thing by the game or the playerbase.
 

Until Anet actively put a DPS meter into Gw2 then no matter what anyone says, DPS is utterly irrelevant and the vast majority of players should continue to not give a kitten about it and play however they want to.

 

If my DPS is so important then give me the tools I need to improve it.

Otherwise I just don't care, and I never will.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Teratus.2859

[Tukaram.8256]

8 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Yes, I would be ok with that.

 

If something like a DPS meter is to be validated within the community then it must be something integrated into the game itself.

Reliance on 3rd party software for features like this (such as ArkDPS) is not and should not ever be pushed as a mandatory thing by the game or the playerbase.
 

Until Anet actively put a DPS meter into Gw2 then no matter what anyone says, DPS is utterly irrelevant and the vast majority of players should continue to not give a kitten about it and play however they want to.

 

If my DPS is so important then give me the tools I need to improve it.

Otherwise I just don't care, and I never will.

 

22 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

I 100% agree if arc is being used to limit players by seeing how much damage other players are doing it needs to go immediately. that is abuse.

Yet another reason to stay away from raids.

Exactly!  If DPS was important then ANet would give us a meter in our hero panel. Yeah, there is some test golem somewhere (never heard of it except on the forum), but if we have to go search it out... it must not be very important to most players.  

[Ashantara.8731]

On 6/6/2022 at 3:42 PM, Spartacus.3192 said:

ArcDps gives me everything i need to know and it very easy to use. 

...except when it crashes your game after a patch. 😉

[Fuchslein.8639]

9 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

...except when it crashes your game after a patch. 😉

Everyone know's that you just delete after a big patch and wait for the update.

That's how mods work.

[Teratus.2859]

30 minutes ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

Everyone know's that you just delete after a big patch and wait for the update.

That's how mods work.

Probably more accurate to say everyone who knows basic modding knows 😛 

For the vast majority of people they probably don't know that kind of stuff to be fair.

[Erise.5614]

On 6/10/2022 at 8:12 AM, White Kitsunee.4620 said:

Sad to say that tools for understanding the game better would have a negative reception but it is what it is. Anet should focus on making slower, more difficult open world content that players will want to improve in the first place before they do something like this.

Would that really be the right way around though?

In effect, that means they deliberately implement frustration to foster a desire for a way to overcome that frustration. And then eventually offering such a tool.

To me it feels more like the reason it has a negative reception is because a lot of players aren't as interested in having to try hard. In my opinion, implementing difficulty in open world just deters those audiences. Which is a pattern we have seen play out a good handful of times by now. They don't convert. It's not building a desire to improve. They mostly just avoid it. My interpretation of that is, they leave it be because they fundamentally don't look for that kind of experience.

Edit: In my humble opinion. The best way towards higher conversion rates is to teach in a low pressure environment that will always remain low pressure. With a clear path towards more challenging content that ramps up very gradually.

Easy to judge from afar how difficult certain content is. Have an environment where it's easy to succeed with any build or setup. But introduce challenges that teach certain mechanics. And then testing them regularly as well. So people do train most relevant skills in a low pressure environment. Having a clear intended path for where they can go for smoothly increasing challenge when they feel ready for it. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Fuchslein.8639]

21 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Probably more accurate to say everyone who knows basic modding knows 😛 

For the vast majority of people they probably don't know that kind of stuff to be fair.

Well, probaly right.

I play a lot other games and a lot of them modded and with reshade. I assumed that if you go out of your way and use arc-dps you normally know something like that. But there were already threads here about this topic ... therefore, I should probably not start from myself.

[Zaret.1450]

i havent read all the comments but i have to remark one thing, in content like raid the dps of each member is important for 2 reasons.

1 the boses have a time limit, while you can kill a boss in enrage if you only need to kill the last 1% its far from ideal.

2 reason is personal effort, in a raid of 10 people you are playing not just for yourself but for others too, if you dont take it with a basis of seriousness and the group ends up failing, or you end up being a hidrance... well noone wants that in a group, if its a training its understandable but a full fledged group doesnt want to keep carring some random person that cant think of being usefull.

That said yeah, some people use dps meters to rage or kick people in awfull ways, but thats a problem with the player behind the screen and not the tool hes using, if someone tells you in a low li or training group "hey you have low dps you need to work in that" its just natural and you shouldnt feel offended by that, its not normal to rage at someone because of bad dmg but its also not normal that someone sais hes a dps and then he has much less dmg than the healer.

Also people create their own scuads with their rules and freedom, if you disagree with a comander you can create your own scuad with your comander tag and lead the way you think is best, everyone can do raid or lead others in a scuad, so dont loose confidence just for a comentary.

GL gg wp

[White Kitsunee.4620]

3 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

 

In effect, that means they deliberately implement frustration to foster a desire for a way to overcome that frustration. And then eventually offering such a tool.

To me it feels more like the reason it has a negative reception is because a lot of players aren't as interested in having to try hard. In my opinion, implementing difficulty in open world just deters those audiences. Which is a pattern we have seen play out a good handful of times by now. They don't convert. It's not building a desire to improve. They mostly just avoid it. My interpretation of that is, they leave it be because they fundamentally don't look for that kind of experience.

Players won't understand the fun of a system until you show it to them. To me, the biggest failing of GW2 has been crafting a beautiful combat system then throwing it away but not giving people anything to stress it against.  I wouldn't say ANET made good open world mobs until PoF. Those parties of Balthazar minions where fairly well designed and how mobs should have been designed from the start.

Before then. Open world mobs either did nothing (core) or were annoying to fight (HoT)

So many people arent interested in that kind of content because so many of them don't understand how fun and engaging it can be because GW2 has never onced asked that of them. That's why difficult content needs to be put in the open world. I'm not asking for the whole thing to become a murderfest, I just want parts of the map let players experience the joys of the combat system, solo. That way they don't have to find a party for fractals or dungeons, they don't have to find a guild for raids, and they don't have to find strike missions.

I think the core issue is that many players are content to just leave out major parts of the game because they don't have to do them. If ANET could both teach these players how to succeed in those formats and have fun with them, then we could see a huge rate of player attention being brought throughout many different game types again.

Edit: forgot to explain about the DPS meter lol. People that play this game aren't going to enjoy a feature they see no value in. In fact as you can see from this thread many people would be in fact be upset by this addition. Until ANET manages to make these player enjoy the kinds of content that a DPS meter would benefit, then it would be purely a net-loss for the community at large. But after Anet does that then it will be a gain for the community.

Edited June 11, 2022 by White Kitsunee.4620

[Fuchslein.8639]

25 minutes ago, White Kitsunee.4620 said:

Players won't understand the fun of a system until you show it to them. To me, the biggest failing of GW2 has been crafting a beautiful combat system then throwing it away but not giving people anything to stress it against.  I wouldn't say ANET made good open world mobs until PoF. Those parties of Balthazar minions where fairly well designed and how mobs should have been designed from the start.

Before then. Open world mobs either did nothing (core) or were annoying to fight (HoT)

So many people arent interested in that kind of content because so many of them don't understand how fun and engaging it can be because GW2 has never onced asked that of them. That's why difficult content needs to be put in the open world. I'm not asking for the whole thing to become a murderfest, I just want parts of the map let players experience the joys of the combat system, solo. That way they don't have to find a party for fractals or dungeons, they don't have to find a guild for raids, and they don't have to find strike missions.

I think the core issue is that many players are content to just leave out major parts of the game because they don't have to do them. If ANET could both teach these players how to succeed in those formats and have fun with them, then we could see a huge rate of player attention being brought throughout many different game types again.

Edit: forgot to explain about the DPS meter lol. People that play this game aren't going to enjoy a feature they see no value in. In fact as you can see from this thread many people would be in fact be upset by this addition. Until ANET manages to make these player enjoy the kinds of content that a DPS meter would benefit, then it would be purely a net-loss for the community at large. But after Anet does that then it will be a gain for the community.

And a lot of people don't understand preference.

I liked HOT a lot more over POF. For me POF was designed after "trew as much mobs as possible at the player and see how he handles this". While HOT had actually mechanics and logic which you really could work with. This in my eyes gave way more representation towards the GW2 combat system than POF ever did. In my eyes.

----

I mean. We have an Ingame-DPS meter which shows out- and input. It's just not really representive in terms of overall dmg. Anet could work on this and drop the golem-code in there somehow. This would not be perfect, but something people, who are not completly interested in hard-content and performance, but want to know what just happend to them could see better numbers then actual.

[Ashantara.8731]

4 hours ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

Everyone know's that you just delete after a big patch and wait for the update.

That's how mods work.

Not all add-ons require this, luckily. ReShade rarely causes any issues with game patches, if ever.

[Fuchslein.8639]

4 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Not all add-ons require this, luckily. ReShade rarely causes any issues with game patches, if ever.

Yeah, because Reshade don't work with anything the game provide, as far as i know. It dosn't need an API or stuff to work. Reshade just puts filters over your screen. This is why Reshade is so versityle and can be aplied to almost every game out there.

But yeah i agree, its not as self-explanatory as is thought. People are different, i sometimes forget about this.

[Erise.5614]

47 minutes ago, White Kitsunee.4620 said:

Players won't understand the fun of a system until you show it to them. To me, the biggest failing of GW2 has been crafting a beautiful combat system then throwing it away but not giving people anything to stress it against.  I wouldn't say ANET made good open world mobs until PoF. Those parties of Balthazar minions where fairly well designed and how mobs should have been designed from the start.

Before then. Open world mobs either did nothing (core) or were annoying to fight (HoT)

So many people arent interested in that kind of content because so many of them don't understand how fun and engaging it can be because GW2 has never onced asked that of them. That's why difficult content needs to be put in the open world. I'm not asking for the whole thing to become a murderfest, I just want parts of the map let players experience the joys of the combat system, solo. That way they don't have to find a party for fractals or dungeons, they don't have to find a guild for raids, and they don't have to find strike missions.

I think the core issue is that many players are content to just leave out major parts of the game because they don't have to do them. If ANET could both teach these players how to succeed in those formats and have fun with them, then we could see a huge rate of player attention being brought throughout many different game types again.

Edit: forgot to explain about the DPS meter lol. People that play this game aren't going to enjoy a feature they see no value in. In fact as you can see from this thread many people would be in fact be upset by this addition. Until ANET manages to make these player enjoy the kinds of content that a DPS meter would benefit, then it would be purely a net-loss for the community at large. But after Anet does that then it will be a gain for the community.

I can understand the perspective you are coming from. 

But the thing I don't understand is why the only way to "show [the fun of the system] to [players]" and "teach these players how to succeed in those formats and have fun with them" must mean "force them to play content they dislike and find frustrating". 

Everything you say here is perfectly sensible. But we know for a fact that implementing difficult content does not result in what you are promoting. It has not in the past, it has not this time. There are always some. And there's usually a small community or two who stick with the content. But nothing changes in the grand scheme of things. How is more of the same gonna improve things? 

Why is the only way to get people to have fun in the content to force them through frustration?

And why isn't the problem with the fact that such frustration is necessary to get there?

[White Kitsunee.4620]

33 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

I can understand the perspective you are coming from. 

But the thing I don't understand is why the only way to "show [the fun of the system] to [players]" and "teach these players how to succeed in those formats and have fun with them" must mean "force them to play content they dislike and find frustrating". 

Everything you say here is perfectly sensible. But we know for a fact that implementing difficult content does not result in what you are promoting. It has not in the past, it has not this time. There are always some. And there's usually a small community or two who stick with the content. But nothing changes in the grand scheme of things. How is more of the same gonna improve things? 

Why is the only way to get people to have fun in the content to force them through frustration?

And why isn't the problem with the fact that such frustration is necessary to get there?

2 reasons and you already said one yourself.

1. Anet has tried offering safe very granulating difficult content in the form of both strikes and fractals. Strikes especially are great at teaching players the fun of getting better at a combat system and overcoming tough fights. I've run alot of groups of whisper of jormag with newbies who at the end of it had a great time progressing on a fight and finally beating it.

BUT, strikes have largely failed at getting the wider community interested in harder content. But like you said  all of ANET's attempts to do so with fractals or raids or whatever have also failed.

So like... Try it again but closer to home. I think the primary issue people have with these types of content are not the content itself but both the barrier to entry and more importantly the perception of what that content is like. It doesn't matter that there are easier raids and strikes because many players have an different idea in their head of what that experience is going to be like. And because of the perception they don't even try it. So if it was well designed for them it doesn't matter. 

If the open world was more challenging than these players have the opportunity to solo (the vast majority's preferred play style) at their own pace. Then, and this next part is important: actually make well designed open world mobs.

Now there is 0 barriers in the way of players experiencing what the game has to offer, once they understand that they will feel more confident to tackle the other models of gameplay. 

2. I don't believe that players will A. Learn the expensive rules and mechanics of GW2 out of the game by reading things like the wiki, and B. Also that's bad game design.

So like, give players the opportunities to actually learn the game, in the game. And this comes down to have players ate funneled into content as well as mon design. Critically, mobs that do nothing don't give you an opportunity to learn, and mobs that are explicitly annoying to fight don't either.

 

Imagine this scenario:

Expac for introduces leveling up utility skills. These are more powerful and more fun versions of the skills you already have. But require a currency to unlock. You can only gain this currency but beating hero challenge esque missions.

Each mission is designed to stress a players understanding of the game in unique and fun ways. Or sometimes being super blunt. For example, imagine a mission where you fight an enemy that doesn't take any damage until their breakbar had been Broken. And  the bar recovers fast if it hasn't been broken. This encounter has a resource every player wants and any player that completes it are forced to understand in some level of depth how burst CC works, as well as breakbars. Or maybe a mission where you have to get to an area in a strict time limit. Players who do this challenge are forced to understand their movement options in some level of depth.

Now everyone knows how this stuff works without a shadow of a doubt, and they can make mobs that reinforce that mindset. Setting players up with the information IN GAME to become better.

 

 

 

[Erise.5614]

1 hour ago, White Kitsunee.4620 said:

2 reasons and you already said one yourself.

1. Anet has tried offering safe very granulating difficult content in the form of both strikes and fractals. Strikes especially are great at teaching players the fun of getting better at a combat system and overcoming tough fights. I've run alot of groups of whisper of jormag with newbies who at the end of it had a great time progressing on a fight and finally beating it.

BUT, strikes have largely failed at getting the wider community interested in harder content. But like you said  all of ANET's attempts to do so with fractals or raids or whatever have also failed.

So like... Try it again but closer to home. I think the primary issue people have with these types of content are not the content itself but both the barrier to entry and more importantly the perception of what that content is like. It doesn't matter that there are easier raids and strikes because many players have an different idea in their head of what that experience is going to be like. And because of the perception they don't even try it. So if it was well designed for them it doesn't matter. 

If the open world was more challenging than these players have the opportunity to solo (the vast majority's preferred play style) at their own pace. Then, and this next part is important: actually make well designed open world mobs.

Now there is 0 barriers in the way of players experiencing what the game has to offer, once they understand that they will feel more confident to tackle the other models of gameplay. 

2. I don't believe that players will A. Learn the expensive rules and mechanics of GW2 out of the game by reading things like the wiki, and B. Also that's bad game design.

So like, give players the opportunities to actually learn the game, in the game. And this comes down to have players ate funneled into content as well as mon design. Critically, mobs that do nothing don't give you an opportunity to learn, and mobs that are explicitly annoying to fight don't either.

 

Imagine this scenario:

Expac for introduces leveling up utility skills. These are more powerful and more fun versions of the skills you already have. But require a currency to unlock. You can only gain this currency but beating hero challenge esque missions.

Each mission is designed to stress a players understanding of the game in unique and fun ways. Or sometimes being super blunt. For example, imagine a mission where you fight an enemy that doesn't take any damage until their breakbar had been Broken. And  the bar recovers fast if it hasn't been broken. This encounter has a resource every player wants and any player that completes it are forced to understand in some level of depth how burst CC works, as well as breakbars. Or maybe a mission where you have to get to an area in a strict time limit. Players who do this challenge are forced to understand their movement options in some level of depth.

Now everyone knows how this stuff works without a shadow of a doubt, and they can make mobs that reinforce that mindset. Setting players up with the information IN GAME to become better.

 

 

 

One quick clarification. When I was talking about failed experiments I was talking about open world events. Whether it be TT, the HoT metas before the rework or now Dragon's End. That difficulty in open world has failed to cause significant change again and again. Not instanced content. I actually think instanced content fulfills its purpose well. It's just not attractive to a lot of players. But that poses the question why?

Is it really just unawareness? Or prejudice? Do most people who try instanced content really enjoy their time there? 

It feels like you skipped right over that question. Answering it for yourself as "these players just don't have contact with that kind of content and therefore they don't enjoy it". When there are a whole bunch of players who do know the content but don't enjoy it.

The focus on solo content is interesting but is that really the way to go in open world? There could be 50 people helping with the solo challenge. Or no one. Not all classes have the same kind of access to skill effects. Defiance damage is reasonably well distributed but teaching the game this way gets real weird once you try to bring in alacrity, quickness, stability or, worst of all, DPS. Which is very dependent on a good synergy between traits, equipment and skill usage. So now you need one mob that is balanced around 27 elites and 9 base classes which teaches 3 entirely different things in one combat scenario. That is one hell of a challenge.

I do agree that better education and information in game is extremely important. I just wonder whether the focus on simply forcing players into challenging content solves the problem. Or if that just causes more rifts, more prejudice while also having more players burn out. Which would be the case if your base assumption is wrong (that everyone will enjoy that style of content when they only start playing it).

Edited June 11, 2022 by Erise.5614