Is consultation between Anet and the player base a thing of the past?

[Molesworth.1684]

The change to dungeon tokens in the last patch has obviously upset a section of the player base.  It came out of the blue with no prior warning to enable players to cash in dungeon tokens which they'd earned in wvw reward tracks before the change.  This seems to follow an increasingly common trend, where Anet's attitude seems to be 'We know what's best for you, we don't care what you think, just get on with it.'  I'm referring also to the recent bitter controversy over the design of the Dragon's End meta and the decision to gate acquisition of the new mount behind this (initially - yes I know they swiftly created a vendor for the egg) and a strike mission.  I won't bring all that up again here.  But it pitched two sections of the player base against each other, and despite many reasoned arguments against it, no comment was ever made (except 'we wanted to make the final meta hard'), and you still have to do a strike mission to get the turtle, which many don't want to be forced to do.  

 

I sense a change in Anet's attitude; they seem to have become entrenched in their ideas, and don't listen to the player base any more.  Hey guys, this is a game, meant for our entertainment.  I used to feel they were 'on our side' but now I'm not so sure.  I will certainly never pre-purchase another expansion ever again, until I find out what's going to be forced on us in future.  I sincerely hope this isn't a long-term trend.  Please start talking to the players again Anet.

[Bristingr.5034]

What are people upset about? Most I've heard like the change. I don't care either way, since I'm just sitting on 6k Dungeon tokens now, but they can be used for anything if you've simply played through the story dungeons, which isn't that hard...

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

5 minutes ago, Bristingr.5034 said:

What are people upset about? Most I've heard like the change. I don't care either way, since I'm just sitting on 6k Dungeon tokens now, but they can be used for anything if you've simply played through the story dungeons, which isn't that hard...

People are upset that they have to essentially finish the Explorable paths a few times to be able to buy the rewards now.

[Randulf.7614]

If Anet had consulted players on the dungeon tokens beforehand, given people are divided on opinion what would have been the outcome? They gather data and passive feedback from metrics, Reddit, discord, surveys, social media and other means and go from there. I don’t like most decisions they are making, but it’s their game and I’m not sure such minor and insignificant changes need bogging down with player input. Nothing would get done

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

I don't think it is so important but in general it is true they "move forwards" and let a part of the player base behind .

 

The reason is GW2 isn't supposed to "move forwards" all content should stay relevant .

I also see that the devs hardly communicate with the community only if then they took inspiration from someone like MightyTeaPot who sees everything through his raider lenses

 

Well yes I feel trolled a while from the devs by them doing the things they shouldn't or aren't supposed to do again and agian

[Need More Time.2540]

I’ve only heard good things about the dungeon token change in game, and me personally like the change as I was sitting on a lot of Arah tokens etc that I haven’t used in god knows how long as i  finished that collection a very long time ago but now I put those towards one of the sets that I was missing. Which is great and I think quite a few people have said the same in my guild 

[Jukhy.2431]

Almost every time they make changes there are those who say 'yay!' and those who say 'nay!' so it's hard to please everyone. Some players have requested less currency clutter - I'd say this change falls under that category. Plus it'll make old dungeons more active - another requested thing since there have been complains about not finding groups.

As for not listening the players, I see more of the opposite trend tbh. For example the DE meta changes and adding turtle egg vendor, dawn/dusk and saltwater fishing drop rate buffs to name few. The communication is also better now than what it used to be, eg. commenting on the forums, more news and updates - I hope they keep this going. But in the end it's their game so they can do as they please, and we agree to it by accepting the ToS/EULA.

Edit: Playing thru the dungeons (to unlock the rewards) also helps new players to orient themselves better to end game content like fractals and raids. This is another requested thing as in the game needs to do better job with helping players learn the mechanics.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Jukhy.2431
addition

[Bakeneko.5826]

44 minutes ago, Molesworth.1684 said:

The change to dungeon tokens in the last patch has obviously upset a section of the player base.  It came out of the blue with no prior warning to enable players to cash in dungeon tokens which they'd earned in wvw reward tracks before the change.  This seems to follow an increasingly common trend, where Anet's attitude seems to be 'We know what's best for you, we don't care what you think, just get on with it.'  I'm referring also to the recent bitter controversy over the design of the Dragon's End meta and the decision to gate acquisition of the new mount behind this (initially - yes I know they swiftly created a vendor for the egg) and a strike mission.  I won't bring all that up again here.  But it pitched two sections of the player base against each other, and despite many reasoned arguments against it, no comment was ever made (except 'we wanted to make the final meta hard'), and you still have to do a strike mission to get the turtle, which many don't want to be forced to do.  

 

I sense a change in Anet's attitude; they seem to have become entrenched in their ideas, and don't listen to the player base any more.  Hey guys, this is a game, meant for our entertainment.  I used to feel they were 'on our side' but now I'm not so sure.  I will certainly never pre-purchase another expansion ever again, until I find out what's going to be forced on us in future.  I sincerely hope this isn't a long-term trend.  Please start talking to the players again Anet.

Playerbase is worst source of information on how to change a game

[Batel.9206]

Well...sometimes.

"Hey, ArenaNet, can we have a way to turn down or off visual effects/noise?"

"WHAT?? CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE FLASHING STROBE LIGHTS AND GLOWING EFFECTS WE'RE ADDING!!"

[Zok.4956]

37 minutes ago, Molesworth.1684 said:

I sense a change in Anet's attitude; they seem to have become entrenched in their ideas, and don't listen to the player base any more.

It is not a change in Anet's attitude, it is this way for a long time.

The exception and last time Anet really listened and communicated and discussed with the player base/community was in 2014 before HoT during the time of the CDI (Collaborative Development Initiative) when Chris Whiteside (Studio Design Director at that time) and others discussed a lot of topics with the community in the forum. (Archive-Link: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi ).

 

[Labjax.2465]

One of the problems with these games that go on for so long is that they retain the same brand image, even if the people behind it change over the years. And you can't really go by the public-facing "leads" either, cause that only tells you who is making executive calls at the highest level, it doesn't tell you who is different behind the scenes who had this or that attention to detail and capability that made certain things in the past possible. Add to that money being the 1st priority over interest in maintaining consistency of the design/feel of the game and it can be hard to stay with a game for a long time without being estranged in one way or another.

[Luthan.5236]

My guess is that this actually is a result from those A/B tests mentiond in the past. (Where people also had different - faster - progress with the experience bar. Also the thing people mention about the daily achievements presented in a different way ... might be a thing related to that.)

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Bristingr.5034 said:

Boohoo. People actually have to play a few extra dungeons.

Well, the very reason for those reward tracks existence was so SPvP and WvW players would not have to run explorable paths, so...

Regardless of that, the patchnotes clearly say that:

Quote

Accounts that have already completed any story mode or explorable path before this change are exempt from this requirement.

So, having story mode done should have grandfathered OP into access to the vendor. And since to unlock the reward tracks you've had to do a corresponding story mode first anyway, they should have access. There's however a bug currently that locks out vendor to many players that should have it (including players with full dungeon completion). I guess that's what OP has run into.

And as for Anet<->player consultation, it's not a thing of the past, because it has always been bad.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Mungrul.9358]

20 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Accounts that have already completed any story mode or explorable path before this change are exempt from this requirement.

That part at the very least isn't true.

 

My guild have been running through all dungeons and all of their explorable paths recently (before the patch), and I've participated in those runs having never previously done all of them. I think the only one where I haven't done all explorable paths now is Arah.

Yet when I went to the vendor to try and spend some of my tokens on Twilight Arbor armour, it was all locked out, telling me I had to complete each explorable path at least 3 times.

 

I get bored of instanced content quite quickly, as repeating the same linear content in quick succession rarely appeals to me, unless its done incredibly well. Also, getting people to repeat said content in order to get rewards strikes me as being lowest possible effort on behalf of the devs.

 

I've always seen through such tactics quickly, and have always been disgusted by them.

 

I even tried getting in to fractals earlier this year, and while the content was fresh, I was engaged and enjoying it. But after playing each map a few times, I quickly lost interest, as they were offering me nothing new. It doesn't matter that new rules were getting introduced at high levels. They simply weren't enough to keep me engaged.

 

GW2 could really do with some procedurally generated content when it comes to instanced content. The best example I've ever experienced for that kind of gameplay was The Division's "Underground" expansion. No two runs were ever the same, being always engaging and challenging, while also including rules modifiers to make things easier or harder, decreasing or increasing rewards accordingly.

[Luthan.5236]

This apparently is bugged. For me - I have 9 chars that all have only done the Arah story mode from personal story (where it is soloable) - the vendor for weapons + legendary gifts (all dungeons) is unlocked. Locked only the armor vendors.

People reported bugs about this though. Someone assumed that talking to the vendor wirth the wrong character (that do not have yet done a dungeon before) ... will bug it for the whole account - and lock it. (Weapons and gifts.) Though it is supposed to be acc-ount-wide.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

1 hour ago, Zok.4956 said:

It is not a change in Anet's attitude, it is this way for a long time.

The exception and last time Anet really listened and communicated and discussed with the player base/community was in 2014 before HoT during the time of the CDI (Collaborative Development Initiative) when Chris Whiteside (Studio Design Director at that time) and others discussed a lot of topics with the community in the forum. (Archive-Link: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi ).

 

Well I joined later but they continued talking with the community  at least from their side somewhere until shortly after PoF release after that everything seems to go down hill. Maybe I was just lucky joining Gw2 in its best years.

 

But I also must agree not everything players say is gold because I or you say it doesn't mean it true for the majority also sometimes player not really know what they want e.g if you get everything for free there is not content you can play.

 

Overtime Gw2 had 3 major hick ups so to speak from what I heard  and know.

 

1.Making Dungeon semi obsolete + exos obsolete with ascended gear

2. HoT with his pure elite abroch wasn't  received well from the overall population

3. Current making Fractals and Raids semi obsolete (+ some hard elite stuff again)

 

I mean after 1 they talked with 2 they did cater some player base but not the majority at the time and 3 seems the accumulation of everything before after things stopped again.

 

Honestly why we running in this direction with the game has properly to do who the CEO of Arena.NET and who he/she is which we don't know but it is likely that someone from NCsoft is directly in charge now basically someone who used to mange an Asia Grinder.

 

On the other side I think a lot of the Senior Devs did manage the overall balance and ideas how things work out directly without them it is natural we have now huge problems.

[Zok.4956]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And since to unlock the reward tracks you've had to do a corresponding story mode first anyway, they should have access.

For unlocking the reward track permanently finishing the story mode of that dungeon is required. But the dungeon reward tracks are on a rotatation and can be used (during their rotation cycles) without ever having played the dungeon. So WvW-only players could get lots of dungeon currency without ever played any dungeon.

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

So, having story mode done should have grandfathered OP into access to the vendor.

I agree. It's clearly a bug for some old accounts that have played dungeons.

However, new players that play mostly WvW or WvW players that have not played dungeons yet, will b f*ckd if they want to purchase legendary gifts and such from dungeon vendor now.

[Rasimir.6239]

4 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

However, new players that play mostly WvW or WvW players that have not played dungeons yet, will b f*ckd if they want to purchase legendary gifts and such from dungeon vendor now.

Reminds me of how PvE players used to be able to buy Gift of Battle from a vendor with Badges of Honor they got from achievement chests ... until the vendor was retired in favor of a GoB reward track. No more GoB without participating in WvW.

 

The difference being that people have to unlock the dungeon gift vendors once, while they have to repeatedly play WvW for more gifts.

[Luthan.5236]

32 minutes ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

Overtime Gw2 had 3 major hick ups so to speak from what I heard  and know.

 

1.Making Dungeon semi obsolete + exos obsolete with ascended gear

2. HoT with his pure elite abroch wasn't  received well from the overall population

3. Current making Fractals and Raids semi obsolete (+ some hard elite stuff again)

Can't see much bad stuff here. At least not with 1 ... and I do not know about 3 much since I am not playing raids and only playing fractals on tier 1 and tier 2.

The exotics though ... are still important for new players. As intermediate step - before they can get the more expensive ascsended stuff. Only for stuff where the exotics are already super expensive (cause of some rare material used for the inscription itself - and not mainly cause of the ascended components) ... exotics might be uninteresting.

Fractals at leas ton the lower tiers - personally I liked them (not doing them at the moment because there is much other content) for the flat money you could get. Them actually creating money for the economy. (From the stuff sold to the vendor - the junk items.) I know they have removed stuff from the high level fractals - challenge motes - but there is a ton of content.

Hard to balance the players. In the end it is between moving the players from one content to the other one. Without the changes ... more people might have done that challenge motes - I guess ... missing at the other content where people might have needed to wait longer to fill up groups. Since the time is limited. The playerbase is stable I guess. And the content is getting more and more.

HoT seems like a well done content - with a lot of people still liking the map. From what I have heard it was much harder back then (got nerfs) - and thte main problem will be the gap in difficulty if people rush straight through the content ... wanting to to stuff in order of release. (Then being surprised that even the open world map mobs are hitting harder a lot in HoT compared to Orr for example.)

Main problem will be if people need certain stuff for achievements - and no one else does need it anymore (while  people with achievements completed will have no other incentive to play that content and help others) ... they might need to think about other regular events (maybe automated) ... to give people an incentive. Not every day maybe. The fractal rush worked since fractals are short.

For the dungeons I can only see this as - maybe - a fixed daily. Currently we have 4 PvE dailies. Sometimes a dungeon. Make it 5 (3 for the 2 gold necessary) ... and make the 5th one always a dungeon where you rotate between them. Or maybe an own daily dungeon category where you could add a tiered achievement. (So people might as well still try the story mode - to get stuff from the achievements.) Question is how the reward should be designed ... to not counteract the other things they wanted to do by changing the reward structures.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

However, new players that play mostly WvW or WvW players that have not played dungeons yet, will b f*ckd if they want to purchase legendary gifts and such from dungeon vendor now.

Not that i disagee, but, like someone already mentioned, it's no different than the Gift of Battle situation. Just seen from the other side.

[misterman.1530]

8 hours ago, Bristingr.5034 said:

Boohoo. People actually have to play a few extra dungeons.

Not really the issue. Before the change, if you had 3000 of a particular dungeon's tokens, you could purchase whatever you wanted from the vendor. Tokens you got simply from WvW. Now you have 3000+ of the new Dungeon Delving tokens and you might not be able to spend any of them. 

Though, oddly, I can even though I haven't done all the dungeons in explorable mode, so not sure that's true. In any event., I think that's what OP meant.

[misterman.1530]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Not that i disagee, but, like someone already mentioned, it's no different than the Gift of Battle situation. Just seen from the other side.

The better allegory would be you have x number of Gifts of Battle, but now you have to go back into WvW and play there more just to be able to use it. 

[Obtena.7952]

If Anet only made changes when everyone was happy with the change ... they would never be able to make any. 

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, misterman.1530 said:

The better allegory would be you have x number of Gifts of Battle, but now you have to go back into WvW and play there more just to be able to use it. 

Notice, that i was responding to @Zok.4956's concern about new players, those with no backlog of gifts or dungeon tokens. So, the difference will be that you will be able to run explorables 3 times, and from now on you will have that dungeon vendor unlocked forever and need not bother to return there ever again, while Gift of Battle needs you to run WvW each time you want one.

Notice also, that when they changed Gift from being buyable to a reward from reward track, it was very much the situation like this. Players had Badges of heroics, but suddenly they became unable to buy gifts, and had to come to WvW to get something they could have easily bought before.

So, please, do not tell me how the dungeon situation now is sooo much worse, because it is not.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Ashen.2907]

You got me. They consulted with me and I suggested they go ahead with the change. I think it is an overall positive change for a number of reasons.

If I want monk runes, but dislike AC, I might decide to run HotW instead. I then advertise in guild chat that I am starting a geoup for that dungeon. Guildie 1 wants to buy Nightmare runes so she joins up, when she might not have before,. Guildie 2 is working on Arah armor and joins as well. Guildie 3 is just 1 dungeon away from the 5g from frequenter so he joins too. Guildie 4 wants those amazing light  ascalonian performer pants so he is good to go as well. Five people with five different goals for doing a dungeon all being rewarded according to their separate desires at the same time.

Yeah, some bugs and details to work out, but I stand by my recommendation.

ANet, you have my account info, I will need my consultation fee before Friday.