Giving those using infantile raid mode full rewards is a huge punch in the gut from anet to their hardcore players

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

It's obvious that anet wants hardcore players in strike cms these days anyway with the changes to rewards. They also communicated as much in the post. In this world, the LI needs to be worth something, and the only way for that to happen is by making it easier to unlock the collections required for envoy and coalescence, as fewer and fewer hardcore players will funnel into raids with this reward change. It's completely fair.

But still LI is worth nothing after the 4 things you buy with them are aquired.

[mythical.6315]

2 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

It's obvious that anet wants hardcore players in strike cms these days anyway with the changes to rewards. They also communicated as much in the post. In this world, the LI needs to be worth something, and the only way for that to happen is by making it easier to unlock the collections required for envoy and coalescence, as fewer and fewer hardcore players will funnel into raids with this reward change. It's completely fair.

I don't believe that you understand what the issue is regarding the value of LI.

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, mythical.6315 said:

I don't believe that you understand what the issue is regarding the value of LI.

Wouldn't it be crazy for a player who never got into raids to be doing strike cms, the new intended end game content and not have access to envoy or coalescence because collections? 

 

I get what you and Linken are saying, it doesn't mean much after you finish all of those, but if you look the other way, that doesn't make sense either. They should just give it a 10s vend value.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[mythical.6315]

27 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Wouldn't it be crazy for a player who never got into raids to be doing strike cms, the new intended end game content and not have access to envoy or coalescence because collections? 

 

I get what you and Linken are saying, it doesn't mean much after you finish all of those, but if you look the other way, that doesn't make sense either. They should just give it a 10s vend value.

You still haven’t addressed the issue that your suggestion does absolutely nothing to increase the value of LI despite your claims.

It seemed almost as if you wanted an easier way to get raid legendary armor so twisted the issue regarding LI not having much value after one has obtain legendary armor for your own needs. 

Speaking of raid legendary armor, you obtain it from doing raids. If ArenaNet wanted there to be another means to acquire it, they would have added it. It should be more accessible than before with the buffs from failing. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Gorem.8104]

6 hours ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

If it entices some to try it, that may be good.  It will not get me interested ha ha... 😎

Exactly though, I raided in other games (that have much... much better raiding then GW2 will ever have) and I play GW2 to destress from when I spent 24/7 in a game just to keep up. I'll never be caught dead in a gw2 raid unless they make it so easy I can just solo it. ;D 

 

11 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

It is anet decision makers being cheap with dev hours again. I bet the idea from the devs was to make an easy mode, but estimated DEV hours were to big. So some smart guy suggested to just use a buff to make an easy mode. Some promising idea again squashed by some manager being cheap.

 

 

True that, this was indeed the easiest way for them to make an easy mode, or training wheels option. Especially as well, you get the same rewards as people doing it without the buff, so kinda makes it pointless to do the fights without the buffs now. 

[Ashen.2907]

22 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

If you don't want the buffs, don't use them. End of Story.

I honestly may have missed something but didnt the announcement say that the buff is automatically applied upon entering the instance?

[Fueki.4753]

17 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I honestly may have missed something but didnt the announcement say that the buff is automatically applied upon entering the instance?

Unless I horribly misremember it, I've also read that there will be an option to turn it off.

[Ashen.2907]

3 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Unless I horribly misremember it, I've also read that there will be an option to turn it off.

Oh, cool. I missed that. Thank you.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

19 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

Not when people are requesting all of those low effort builds where you barely need to do a rotation. You may see them more commonly labeled as low intensity builds. 

Actually using a good build with the correct runes is getting good at the game. I have no problem rewarding those players who are trying to get better. The 1 spammers in random green gear with mismatched runes, they deserve being gated out with the instant kill mechanics and wipe enrage timers.

[TexZero.7910]

It's a placebo fix. At best you'll see a slight uptick in people doing raids for the first 2 months.

 

However, what you're gonna also see is new complaints from the same crowd. No one is willing to lead/teach. Still too daunting with too much mechanical interactions, too much visual noise/clutter. It will venture from one excuse to another, some more valid than others.

 

While i personally don't dislike the attempt to bring more people in, more fixes than this are required. I don't have all the answers as to how to fix it but there's more they can do like adding proper training that lets people see the phases and mechanics unimpeeded and practice those directly both individually and as a squad should they choose. Basic Group finding needs to be enhanced. As is the LFG is pretty woefully underperforming in that function. Additionally a role feature and inspect might be warranted or needed to make sure people are performing the functions they claim.

[Obtena.7952]

On 6/23/2022 at 10:44 AM, Einsof.1457 said:

That's not the point. The point is it cheapens the reward structure of the content. They want to make an infantile mode? Fine. Do not award LIs or achievements. That's all that needs to change. There is nothing LEgEnDaRy about this mode. 

That shouldn't matter. If you are only getting rewards because of their prestige or value, GW2 is not the game for you in the first place; it's not vertical progression and even some BiS gear is purchaseable. The goal isn't to preserve the 'not-cheapness' of the rewards. The goal is to get more people engaged in the content. I have no doubt Anet cares MORE about people playing the game than a small cohort running around showing off the 'rare' colour of shiny their gear is.  If they have to sacrifice 'not-cheapness' to get it ... that's what they are going to do, because that's MORE important for the game than preserving people's sense of gear value.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[voltaicbore.8012]

On 6/23/2022 at 7:55 AM, Einsof.1457 said:

the screeching masses who want everything without any effort

Thing is, do we even know the masses even really wanted this? As I said in another thread here, I have serious questions as to whether or a lot of people ANet surveyed actually want to raid. They probably just want PvE access to legendary armor. 

I'd go so far as to guess that these same people would be happy to have a WvW-esque massive open world grind for legendary armor, so it's not like they want it for free. They just don't actually want to put up with raids to get it.

[Hotride.2187]

29 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

I'd go so far as to guess that these same people would be happy to have a WvW-esque massive open world grind for legendary armor, so it's not like they want it for free. They just don't actually want to put up with raids to get it.

That is probably spot-on.

[Einsof.1457]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That shouldn't matter. If you are only getting rewards because of their prestige or value, GW2 is not the game for you in the first place; it's not vertical progression and even some BiS gear is purchaseable. The goal isn't to preserve the 'not-cheapness' of the rewards. The goal is to get more people engaged in the content. I have no doubt Anet cares MORE about people playing the game than a small cohort running around showing off the 'rare' colour of shiny their gear is.  If they have to sacrifice 'not-cheapness' to get it ... that's what they are going to do, because that's MORE important for the game than preserving people's sense of gear value.

Sigh..it cheapens the rewards and THE CONTENT as well. By your logic, every character should just start with every skin unlocked, and all able to customize stats, and anet should just delete all PvE content.  Why not, right?Think about what you are talking about. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Obtena.7952]

11 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Sigh..it cheapens the rewards and THE CONTENT as well. By your logic, every character should just start with every skin unlocked, and all able to customize stats, and anet should just delete all PvE content.  Why not, right?Think about what you are talking about. 

Again, the 'value' of the rewards means almost nothing if degrading it enables more people to play the game. Face it, what you value as gear isn't inline with the game as a business. 

I mean, YOU should think about what you are talking about. I can almost fully equip a level 80 character with my CC (can I also buy level 80?? I can't recall) ... so maybe I'M the one who understands how this game as a business works better than you. 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[SlayerXX.7138]

2 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Sigh..it cheapens the rewards and THE CONTENT as well. By your logic, every character should just start with every skin unlocked, and all able to customize stats, and anet should just delete all PvE content.  Why not, right?Think about what you are talking about. 

It is a badly implemented easy mode. While you personally don't like the idea of an easy mode, it is necessary to let people getting familiar with Raids so new blood can get into the mode so Anet can justify making content for it. Right now getting into raids is miserable and almost requires a guild to be a human experience. Wing 7 is how old now? They have to do something or the game mode dies. I personally would be fine to not get LI or only 1 per wing. But i guess the devs don't want to take chances here. Strikes did blow raids out of the water while being cheap reused assets for one simple reason: Accessibility!

"ISB 3 easy" is run around the clock and a gateway for the harder strikes, which in some cases are harder then raids. If you want raid content you do want an easy mode. Could some stuff like LI be locked behind normal mode? Sure. But raiders really need to weight their options here.

[Taclism.2406]

I have the dps to raid. I have the will to learn boss strats. I cleared a few wings. But I refuse to deal with superiority complexs like OP's.
Emboldened mode will let me do more raid with the bois that arent as good but infinitely more chill.
Cope

edit : Also lol at imagining gw2 raids are a badge of honor. They might be the "hardest content in gw2" , but gw2 remains the easiest MMO.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Taclism.2406

[Hotride.2187]

24 minutes ago, Taclism.2406 said:

Emboldened mode will let me do more raid with the bois that arent as good but infinitely more chill.

The most fun I've had in raids in WoW was with players who were casually excellent. No stress over builds, no stress over numbers. Just go in, chat and clear. Overall have fun. But that is unfortunately so rare.

[EnferReine.8043]

On 6/24/2022 at 1:34 AM, Shikaru.7618 said:

Overall this change is going to be positive for the community. It makes the game mode way more accessible to players with a bad perception of the game mode, or those feel like they've been locked out due to performance. It was done in such a way that used way less dev resources than making an easy mode with mechanics taken out.

 

The only thing I'm keeping my eye on is how bad habits will form because of this buff in newbie runs. Hypothetically, with increased healing and hp people will ignore eating mushrooms on sloth, ignore the blacks on gorse, not bother kiting sabetha flak. Who knows only time will tell.

It gives them a safe space to react to the mechanics that INSTANTLY will end their run by not respecting them, such as not being in the wrong spot when Sabetha's flame wall makes it's journey, etc.

With the correct training, they will still learn the correct things they should be doing, the benefit is that while they are learning they can be exposed to it in a less raid ending way. Let's look at the Sabetha Flak, you teach them but some people learn by doing and getting smacked around a lot and sometimes those players might take forever to get the kill. This way they might still take a while to get the kill genuinely but they will still get good practice with Emboldened.

[Einsof.1457]

14 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

It is a badly implemented easy mode. While you personally don't like the idea of an easy mode, it is necessary to let people getting familiar with Raids so new blood can get into the mode so Anet can justify making content for it. Right now getting into raids is miserable and almost requires a guild to be a human experience. Wing 7 is how old now? They have to do something or the game mode dies. I personally would be fine to not get LI or only 1 per wing. But i guess the devs don't want to take chances here. Strikes did blow raids out of the water while being cheap reused assets for one simple reason: Accessibility!

"ISB 3 easy" is run around the clock and a gateway for the harder strikes, which in some cases are harder then raids. If you want raid content you do want an easy mode. Could some stuff like LI be locked behind normal mode? Sure. But raiders really need to weight their options here.

Don't misrepresent my position. I think easy mode is a great idea. Legendary rewards for completing easy mode, however, is not. 

[maxwelgm.4315]

The rewards in raids are ludicrous already, imagine giving out even less. I mean, imagine giving out even less rewards to people you want to entice into playing the game mode. Also, how many regular raiders would tag up to still spend hours (because the buff will not pile up without wipes and without % of boss HP reached) teaching encounters to newbies during emboldened, only for the newbies to get nothing to show for their hard earned win after they finally got buffed enough through wipes?

 

The real rewards from raids lie at doing the collection achievements and having 300+LI. This will take several months (far longer than the WvW set which is also painstakingly long) to acquire if a player ONLY goes through emboldened weekly clears. At this point they ought to have raided enough to learn a couple things about the encounters, to the point that in average they probably won't even be actually using emboldened so often (after all it can be turned on but never used if you don't wipe). If you play very well, you still get what your time is worth for by being 6 wing clears a week ahead of someone who can only clear the emboldened one (and it's likely most "last bosses" will be skipped even with emboldened due to mechanics). In other words, almost no one is expected to realistically get to legendary armor by only clearing emboldened wings - and to be honest, if they do manage to accomplish this, it's well deserved due to how long they'll have to grind for it.

 

Bear in mind that emboldened also aligns the acquisition of PvP, PvE and WvW legendary armors. both PvP and WvW armors can already be acquired "at the cost of a very long grind" even if you lose/don't get enough points/don't finish every skirmishing reward track within the week. If you lose too many PvP matches you can still get the armor - you just have to pay the price in time. Likewise if you don't invest a fixed amount of time in WvW to get through the skirmishing reward track, you will have to wait upwards to a year if you want the legendary armor from that content. Now PvE is finally the same - you have an easier option to grind for it, paying the price in how long it will take for you to get there if you never stray from this easier path. This mode was very thought of and though time will tell, there is nothing wrong with it on paper. The fact OP has called it "infantile" mode to begin with already shows from which position this criticism is coming from, and I suppose this is precisely the direction Anet is clearly moving away from.

Edited June 27, 2022 by maxwelgm.4315

[SlayerXX.7138]

6 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Don't misrepresent my position. I think easy mode is a great idea. Legendary rewards for completing easy mode, however, is not. 

I did no such thing. I made an assumption based on the content in this threat. But as you in principle for easy mode(besides the rewards right now) let me put it another way.

Yes higher dps makes even fights easier where its i all about mechanics, but still not free. There are enough instant death mechanics and continuous damage effect that would murder noobs who don't step up even with 5 times hp. Only because it is theoretical possible to wipe your way to victory it is highly improbable people actually gonna do it for halve a year, week after week. For example look at PvP armor while its possible to lose your way into it, i really doubt someone uninterested or unable to PvP did suffer through 400 hours just to get a "effortless" PvP Armor. I am pretty sure the same will be the case for the Raid armor.

If 10.000 people get Legendary armor thanks in part to the easy mode how many of them would be completely unearned. Maybe 10 or 20 at most? That is what? The number of raids that got sold in the last week? Maybe another 100 or 200 who can clear most wings but need the buff for one hard fight. Is that unearned? How many walk around right now who got carried by their guild for the harder fights?

While some incompetent people might get an unearned armor, I really doubt many incompetent people will grind a game mode in which they fail all the time for halve a year. And the miniscule number of people who will shouldn't matter.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Albi.7250

[PMvE.4609]

i am all for ez mode raid. but heving it on by default is really anoying. we turned it of then when we reached sabatha we realized it was on again (why did it turn on again? is this a bug?) the only mote is at the beginning of the raid so do we have to go back to the beginning to turn it off every boss? also getting a full reward is kind of painfull to see. (yes achivements i know) still doesnt make it less painfull.

 

[mythical.6315]

5 hours ago, PMvE.4609 said:

i am all for ez mode raid. but heving it on by default is really anoying. we turned it of then when we reached sabatha we realized it was on again (why did it turn on again? is this a bug?) the only mote is at the beginning of the raid so do we have to go back to the beginning to turn it off every boss? also getting a full reward is kind of painfull to see. (yes achivements i know) still doesnt make it less painfull.

 

Did your group skip spirit run, and you forgot about it, or were you in the same instance for all bosses?

Edited June 29, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Kimmel Shore.3408]

On 6/23/2022 at 5:33 PM, Albi.7250 said:

It is anet decision makers being cheap with dev hours again. I bet the idea from the devs was to make an easy mode, but estimated DEV hours were to big. So some smart guy suggested to just use a buff to make an easy mode. Some promising idea again squashed by some manager being cheap.

 

Emboldened has a better chance of increasing the player base for full difficulty raids.  An easy mode would presumably remove mechanics, which means a player could still fear trying full difficulty due to looming mysterious new mechanics.  With emboldened, a player trains with all mechanics, and as the weeks go by, they may wipe less until they virtually accomplish full difficulty, and an individual may realize they're ready to move into full difficulty sooner if they have an easy enough time before the rest of their group wipes. It sounds like it will still be quite an ordeal that doesn't significantly reduce the prestige of raid rewards.