About Those Tempests

[Stallic.2397]

1 hour ago, Ptolomy.6984 said:

Or swap weapon and hit the tempest from range so shocking doesnt proc. This just shows most people dont know how auras work, magnetic aura? Smack ele in melee, shocking aura? Go range him also auras have like a 4 sec duration if adapting for 4 sec is an issue you have bigger problems than the tempest.

Also shocking has an icd so you dont even need 5 stacks stab

 

People just don't care enough to try and learn counters. Ele is all about countering the opponent. More so than most other classes. Their main mechanic is Attunements and the auras that coincide with them. So if a ranger is hammering them with arrows, what do you expect the Ele to do?? Not use Magentic aura?? 

 

It's surprising that they want to nerf shocking aura when Ele as a profession has the lowest health pool, lowest toughness access, and is forced into melee because of Dagger, sword and hammer. 

 

If their Core Defensive Mechanic is getting nerfed, where's the compensation to keep Ele's alive? There's already a meme for this class being constantly downstate.

 

I guess that's what these complainers want from Ele cause it's just SO hard to swap from melee to range. 

Edited July 10, 2022 by Stallic.2397

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

5 hours ago, Ptolomy.6984 said:

Or swap weapon and hit the tempest from range so shocking doesnt proc.

Eles have the upper hand in counter play here. This works the opposite of what you suggest. The Ele is the one who waits to see what you are doing, and then he swaps to adjust accordingly. Clearly there is a 9s CD between your weapon swaps so you are very limited in what you can do to play around the Ele's advantage in the rock paper scissors here.

5 hours ago, Ptolomy.6984 said:

This just shows most people dont know how auras work, magnetic aura? Smack ele in melee, shocking aura?

Reread the previous point.

5 hours ago, Ptolomy.6984 said:

Go range him also auras have like a 4 sec duration if adapting for 4 sec is an issue you have bigger problems than the tempest.

No, Tempest is the most valuable asset right now. It is definitely #1 MVP in both 2v2s and ATs. Things that are killable become far far too sustainy when next to a good tempest. This is a problem when applied to things like Harbinger & Vindicator. It makes the game dumb to play because the anti-damage mitigation tools are surpassing the damage dealing tools.

Core Guard Support is situated just right for what a Support should be pumping out in spvp. Tempest on the other hand was seriously over-buffed. Its support tools are too strong and it has too much offensive value for how strong the support tools are.

Good places to start nerfing:

1. Shock Aura should be a 1s Daze instead of a 1s Stun.
2. Stone Heart should be some kind of misc -33% damage that stacks with Prot buff, similar to Dolyak Stance. It should not be full negating all crits. It may as well be a full invulnerability vs. power when it denies all crits. It's too strong.
3. It needs to lose some of the anti-projectile uptime. It's way too much anti-projectile which most of it also applies to its party as well. It's just gotten out of hand over years with power creep.
4. They need to seriously dial-back the amount of Alacrity it is throwing out from a full attunement cycle, which is 28s. That's way too strong in spvp right now. It makes the Tempest itself cycle through everything way more often than it should be, as well as lowering the CDs of all the heal utilities & cleanses and everything else its team has. It's too strong when its the only class that has anywhere even near that level of Alacrity output that is also super convenient to take with no downsides or sacrifices to be made to do so.

It's too strong after the buffs it was given.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Ptolomy.6984]

Quote

Eles have the upper hand in counter play here. This works the opposite of what you suggest. The Ele is the one who waits to see what you are doing, and then he swaps to adjust accordingly. Clearly there is a 9s CD between your weapon swaps so you are very limited in what you can do to play around the Ele's advantage in the rock paper scissors here.

If eles counter play you on this means they out play you, any class can counterplay you with their tools when played right, this isnt ele specific. Things like aegis, blocks, stability, stealth, teleports ect can all be used in a similar manner. And about the 9 sec weapon swap... this isnt even an argument, shocking aura is on 20 sec cd when traited by taking air line and needs air attunement to be used, it is way easier to have weapon swap on cd and use this than shocking aura. And if shocking aura is gained by overload, why did you let the ele complete the overload? and if you let it finish a 4 sec channel then the ele deserves the shocking aura.

Quote

Things that are killable become far far too sustainy when next to a good tempest. This is a problem when applied to things like Harbinger & Vindicator

The purpose of a support is to keep your team alive. If those classes become more problematic by becoming harder to kill its those classes that are a problem not the one keeping them alive.

Quote

Good places to start nerfing:

1. Shock Aura should be a 1s Daze instead of a 1s Stun.
2. Stone Heart should be some kind of misc -33% damage that stacks with Prot buff, similar to Dolyak Stance. It should not be full negating all crits. It may as well be a full invulnerability vs. power when it denies all crits. It's too strong.
3. It needs to lose some of the anti-projectile uptime. It's way too much anti-projectile which most of it also applies to its party as well. It's just gotten out of hand over years with power creep.

You are not just nerfing support tempest with that you're nerfing every ele spec with that and ele surely doesn't need nerfs in the self sustain department. You are nerfing core ele with this, you're nerfing the niche glass builds that you hardly ever see with this. If your real issue is that it makes its allies too sustainy all thats needed is revert the heal on aura buff but you're not doing such even tho you mention the buff to healing. For the things you're complaining about, 2 grandmaster traits need to be picked up and most of the build would have to be dedicated towards making auras work. So tell me if a build completely dedicated to doing a specific thing but isnt any good at it whats the point of it? If you pick 2 grandmaster traits up to put a certain gimmick of your class to use it better work well.

Stone heart is an interesting trait, you cant get crit but you also cant do much while sitting in earth attunement, if an ele sits in earth attunement all the time you should be happy and not complain coz its damage and or support will just drop to near 0.

You have not addressed anything of putting back in return because removing of those makes eles defensively weaker which it doesn't need nor do you seem to accept any kind of way to deal or counter auras. The only thing you seem to want it nerfed, which is quite sad. If eles base hp gets bumped up maybe those nerfs you suggested can be looked at but there's no reason why currently the class with lowest hp bracket shouldn't have any good form of defensive capabilities.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Ptolomy.6984 said:

If eles counter play you on this means they out play you

Then Eles are currently outplaying everyone and everything in 2v2 arena as the most valuable partner. You're trying to dodge the point that Tempest is just over-tuned for what it does right now.

2 hours ago, Ptolomy.6984 said:

And about the 9 sec weapon swap... this isnt even an argument, shocking aura is on 20 sec cd when traited by taking air line and needs air attunement to be used, it is way easier to have weapon swap on cd and use this than shocking aura

Pretty sure you're logging into alts to press +1 trophy on your posts, because now you're just spouting misinformation. First of all, a single Shock Aura lasts 4s and can stun a player twice in that duration. It can be used once during say a Ranger melee side assault which will last 9s. Then when the Ranger swaps to ranged side that s another 9s towards the CD of the single use of Shock Aura. During the ranged side, it just spams anti-projectile. When the Ranger swaps back to melee side, the single skill Shock Aura can be used again at 20s CD.

But where you're spouting off true misinformation is that Tempest doesn't get 1 Shock Aura. It gets 2x from Shocking Aura - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) and Unstable Conduit - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) and then it can potentially get a 3rd with "Rebound!" - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W).

I know you want to defend this class/build which is quite clear at this point, but do so with accuracy while detailing its performance. Saying "Shock Aura is on a 20s CD" is silly. Tempest literally spams the skill Shock Aura perpetually. It can do 3x casts which are all on 20s CD, but those casts are all 4s durations = 12s. My good strong bro, Tempest has above a 50% uptime of Shock Aura and that isn't even considering the ridiculously non-skill Alacrity it gives to further reduce the CD of those Shock Auras Lucid Singularity - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) which is 7s for everyone in the party, per overload. We're looking at 28 seconds of Alacrity per cycle of attunements, which is more than enough for each Shock Aura CD to go from 20s to 15s reliably. So with a 12s uptime from 3x Shock Auras and having those Shock Auras be on a 15s CD, that is an 80% uptime of Shock Aura.

Tempest does not need to be spitting out 80% uptime of Shock Aura.

Even with just the two sources of Shock Aura, with Alacrity, it would still be 8s uptime of Shock Aura per 15s CD which is still about 60% uptime of Shock Aura.

So enough with the bologna posts. Stop trying to down-play how ridiculous strong the Shock Aura spam is.

2 hours ago, Ptolomy.6984 said:

And if shocking aura is gained by overload, why did you let the ele complete the overload? and if you let it finish a 4 sec channel then the ele deserves the shocking aura.

Dude they have Stability and hang near Harbingers for offensive cover pressure which also grants them Quickness to make their actions faster.

Stop trying to down-play how strong Tempest is. At this point you're not just saying "why something is ok" but you're actually trying to insinuate that Tempest is bad and easily dealt with, which is just more bologna posting.

2 hours ago, Ptolomy.6984 said:

The purpose of a support is to keep your team alive.

Yup and Tempest is too good at it now after heal buffs and Alacrity buffs which made Shock Aura uptime way too high, along with every other skill it casts, not to mention the actual Alacrity it is giving its team.

Stop acting like this 28s of Alacrity per attunement cycle isn't a real thing.

Tempest's performance value is way too high right now.

2 hours ago, Ptolomy.6984 said:

You are not just nerfing support tempest with that you're nerfing every ele spec with that and ele surely doesn't need nerfs in the self sustain department. You are nerfing core ele with this

I've been saying for years that Shock Aura needs to turn from 1s stun to 1s daze.

I've also been saying for years that Stone Heart needs to be changed.

Yeah, I am indeed in favor of changing these things on Core Ele.

But right now, probably the biggest thing that needs to happen, is Alacrity on Tempest needs to be greatly nerfed. The 7s per swap thing needs to split in pvp to like 2s at most. That Alacrity is what's responsible for Tempest just being broken levels of Support right now. You have to understand that such Alacrity isn't just bolstering DPS and CC effect use frequency, it is also bolstering everyone's own heal utilities and defensive kits as well.

One class having access to that much Alacrity while the others do not, immediately makes it #1 must have MVP for team fights for every obvious reason, the same reasons why Alacrity & Quickness are the two most important boons to have even in PvE.

TEMPEST WITH 28s ALACRITY PER ATTUNEMENT CYCLE IS HIGH LEVELS OF OVERPERFORMANCE.

Just INB4 arguing this fact. It's kind of silly to do so.

[Downstate.4697]

Listen, I have over 10y exp on ele and I play a lot of tempest. Its not that its too strong; projectile denial is too strong. They should rework unblockable to be duration based instead of stack based to address that imo.

The only real big weakness for ele right now is boon corrupt/condi damage, which is most available on harb and condi spectre atm. Tempest also counters a lot of their damage.

One of the issues with EoD is the mobility creep which kicks things like core necro out of the meta. Core necro would actually perform into tempest better than harb, but its too slow to rotate and can be focused down because of that.

The most realistic thing I think they could do right now is reduce swirling winds to 4s and to remove the 2nd earth shield. That is all I would touch tbh.

[Newholiday.8103]

Insane.  People actually think tempest is overtuned?  The only significant things that have changed on tempest as far as I can remember have been dagger buffs some time back, and the alacrity buff in the recent patch (which also nerfed earth shield).  And the alacrity buff requires the tempest to not take elemental bastion (i.e. heal on auras trait).

 

I have no idea how people suddenly started 'struggling' against tempests.

Edited July 11, 2022 by thepolishman.2348

[Kodama.6453]

4 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Listen, I have over 10y exp on ele and I play a lot of tempest. Its not that its too strong; projectile denial is too strong. They should rework unblockable to be duration based instead of stack based to address that imo.

Not every class has access to the unblockable buff.

[Ragnar.4257]

Tempest is fine. It's far more interactive and interesting to play with/against than support-guard. You can actually look for animations and visual cues, and make choices around what attunement they're in, etc. That level of interaction doesn't exist for many other supports, so if we have to have a meta support choice I'd much rather it be tempest. I do not yet see it as problematic.

[Khalisto.5780]

Don't worry

 

1. it's ele

2. it is overshadowing arenanet favorite son

3. "top" streamers always qq hard when ele is good

 

i bet tempest won't get to july mAt without getting nerfed

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I find it confusing how this has been a meta support class for years and they actually got more nerfs than buffs in this update, plus they have to give up healing auras (their main source of group sustain) to take Alacrity which means its a hard trade-off yet people are suddenly having a difficult time?

 

So let me get this right: 20% more frequent skill use is somehow overwhelming players more than previously spamming heals on the entire party every few seconds from every attunement.

 

Have you ever considered you just don't know how to play the game?

Edited July 11, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Ptolomy.6984]

Btw for those thinking alacrity is op on tempest, maybe prevent tempest from overloading. When an ele swaps to an attunement he has to wait 5 secs before he can overload, you can force him into another attunement.  Or just smack him, strip him or hit 2 ccs while hes channeling for 4 secs with no acces to self heal (unless water overload), cleanse (unless water overload again or cleansing fire trait or cleansing fire utility LOL) or dodges. If you tempest spits alot of alacrity thats totally on you. Just like interrupting key skills like heals is important, this is too. And guess what if youre succesful the tempest wasted some seconds overloading to get interrupted and boom 20 sec cd on attunement, no alac, no aura. Just with other classes if you allow them to get their stuff off unchecked youre gonna get screwed over.

Also alac tempest doesnt have as much sustain as a tempest with elrmental bastion. Either way you dont want them to finish their overloads

[Stand The Wall.6987]

10 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

They should rework unblockable to be duration based instead of stack based to address that imo.

never understood why they did unblockable stacks. none of the utility skills are even worth taking just for the unblockable even if they were duration based. they all definitely need a buff.

[ResJudicator.7916]

Tempest hasn't gotten any stronger in recent patches.  But it has projectile block/reflect, which is effective against ranger (OP's "main" class) and harbinger (everyone else's "main" class /s).  Hence the current complaints. 

In particular, earth overload followed by swirling winds / magnetic aura in particular puts out ~10 seconds AOE of blocks/reflects, and can be repeated every ~30 seconds.  (Few people take aftershock or rebound, but adding in aftershock could bring you up to ~14 seconds of AOE blocks/reflects every 30 seconds.)  That is a ton of projectile denial uptime.

I think the best solution here is to add more counterplay, rather than nerfing these skills.  Outside of support tempest, Ele in general is in a pretty sad state.  Nerfing magnetic aura or swirling winds is going to nerf other ele builds (esp. since most other ele builds use focus).  Like FrownyClown suggested above, the way to go is to buff "Unblockable" access.  And builds that want to take advantage of Unblockable have to give up something to take it (e.g. a utility slot), just like eles have to make sacrifices to maintain projectile uptime.  The idea of having unblockable last for X duration instead of a set # of attacks makes a lot of sense. 

In the meantime, there is plenty of other counter-play if your build doesn't rely entirely on range: 

1. You can focus down the tempest.  They constantly have to swap in/out of fire to cleanse condis, and in/out of water to maintain the aoe heal.  If they started (or finished) earth overload and swapped back out to fire/water, they can't swap back into earth for ~20s. 
2. The typical tempest support builds don't prove AOE stab and also provide very little stab to the ele.  CC is very effective (unlike with core guard).
3. You can interrupt the non-earth overloads, which only apply 1 stack of stab.  For earth, necro/harb will convert the stab into fear, which will interrupt that overload.  Interrupting an overload really fks the tempest over.  You can also burst them down during non-earth overloads.
4. Shocking aura doesn't prevent the damage.  If you hit them with something big (e.g. boosted maul) and eat the stun, you won that exchange by a mile.   
5. You can also easily outrotate them.  They're slower than every other meta build by a mile.

Finally, let's not forget that other classes have access to strong projectile block as well.  Not nearly the uptime as a dedicated support tempest, but still enough to give their team a huge edge over ranged specs:

1. Ele's Swirling Winds: 6 second uptime, 30 second CD.  No other effects besides the projectile block.  Requires you take focus for your offhand.
2. Untamed's Enveloping Haze: 5 second uptime, 25 second CD.  AOE follows pet instead of being locked in place like swirling winds.  Deals damage.  Chills targets who are disabled.  "Free" skill b/c it doesn't take up a utility slot or require a specific weapon.
3. Necro's Corrosive poison cloud:  6 seconds (in PvP) uptime, 30 second CD.  Pulses poison and weakness, so also helpful vs. melee spikes, healing, and denying resses.  Slightly smaller radius than swirling winds and enveloping haze.  Takes up utility slot.

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by ResJudicator.7916

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

If you go stand near the ffa and pay attention to who is wearing plat+ badges next to their name, 9 out of 10 of them are Elementalists.

That is actually happening this 2v2 season.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Newholiday.8103]

49 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

If you go stand near the ffa and pay attention to who is wearing plat+ badges next to their name, 9 out of 10 of them are Elementalists.

That is actually happening this 2v2 season.

2v2 is a meme season man.  No nerfs/buffs should be based around how well a class performs in the 2v2 season.  Plus, hardly anyone even plays the 2v2 season.

Edited July 12, 2022 by thepolishman.2348

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

This whole thread is so weird. 

[Ivarian.9018]

9 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

If you go stand near the ffa and pay attention to who is wearing plat+ badges next to their name, 9 out of 10 of them are Elementalists.

That is actually happening this 2v2 season.

 

Wait this whole thread and hate on Ele is justified by its supposed performance in 2v2? A game mode that is pure meme and that nobody takes seriously except maybe new players.

I'm sorry but you've lost all credibility here.

[Crab Fear.8623]

1 hour ago, Ivarian.9018 said:

 

Wait this whole thread and hate on Ele is justified by its supposed performance in 2v2? A game mode that is pure meme and that nobody takes seriously except maybe new players.

I'm sorry but you've lost all credibility here.

Ele is strong, the only people who have no cred are the ones continuously and falsely saying they are weak, or that they deserve to be OP

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

Ele is strong, the only people who have no cred are the ones continuously and falsely saying they are weak, or that they deserve to be OP

No.....you and the lot here, got massively outplayed by better players using a class devoid of easy win gimmicks like : a class again you and the lot can't play half as good as those who owned you. There is a very good reason why none of you here mains an ele....

Have you ever seen a stream of an ele main playing another class? Do you honestly think that players like @Grimjack.8130, @Boyce.4069 or @Solemn.6401 and similar others...are being carried for playing ele?..

I gave up on ele some time ago and I did ask to these guys how they could still enjoy something like ele, when the game now is full of hamster brain levels of gameplay like F1+1111 harbinger or some gatling gun Mechanist....even more they can actually still win making it look so easy. 

Unless you lot can play ele close to that level...you are nothing more than a walking free kill right now and the fact you lot can't realize this...says a lot 

[Draconious.2751]

On 7/11/2022 at 1:28 AM, thepolishman.2348 said:

I have no idea how people suddenly started 'struggling' against tempests.

 

Its a bi-product of the current meta.

 

Fix the meta and you fix the tempest issue.

 

Seems to me the core issue being raised by this thread is that auras are annoying/too strong. Auras have always been a weird concept for elementalist. It is a mechanic which encourages the lowest health pool, lowest toughness profession to get hit. Aura effects have to be strong as you usually trade health directly for an action. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Btw I've played Tempest in 5v5 Ranked for a long time and I can tell you it absolutely struggles to climb into Platinum because its usefulness is entirely dependant on how well your allies know and play the game. If its a really a hard carry, games would be won regardless of other players' skill level, but they're not.

 

Tempests are a force multiplier, nothing more.

 

If your allies are bad you're not going to win. You can reflect projectiles on them 24/7 and they'll still find some way to die to ranged attacks as impossible as it may seem. You can heal them constantly and it'll still seem like their health never goes above 10% for some reason, and so on.

 

The much more selfish classes seem to climb alot easier in my experience. I find that most games are won by 1v1s or 1v2s that hold a specific point for extended periods of time.

 

Teamfights are just fluff to keep most of the enemy team off the side nodes.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Khalisto.5780]

Buids pls! I'm main ele and I wanna play this god elementalist while it lasts

[Grimjack.8130]

u want tempest nerfed? stop asking for nerfs to everything in the game, and start asking for buffs

its no surprise that tempest is good when theres no good condi dps in the game, its no surprise tempest is good when sidenoders can be so tanky that 1v2ing them for 30+ seconds doesnt get you a nuet, making the game into a 4v4, when half the meta is heavily projectile based

tempest is a product of the state of the game, far too efficient in the state of the game that we're in right now; either buff specs and builds that devalue tempest(non projectile dps, more condition specs) or nerf tempest, killing it til they eventually repeat the process of overbuffing it so it sees play again

 

i personally dont want to see the last 2 years on repeat, and therefore am a fan of the former option, but i think we all know what most of you will still want

[Devas.8104]

On 7/9/2022 at 2:19 AM, Kuma.1503 said:

Seems like it does really well into the current meta. Especially double 🍔 comps. The recent buffs it got certainly help.

There's also the fact that other supports with the exception of core guard are underperforming by a wide margin. Firebrand, heal scrapper, heal scourge, heal mech, heal druid, healbreaker, are all overnerfed and/or underperforming. 

Not sure about Ventari rev, I still need to test out the changes it got. 

Double binga comps?

What MM is that, silver? 

kek

[felix.2386]