the state of CC spam from enemies in PvE

[Labjax.2465]

This is kind of an overview of how I see enemy CC in PvE as it is vs. how I think it could be.

How it could be:

- every enemy CC is well telegraphed and easy to see

- every class has robust counters for CC or sufficient response time to avoid it

- players are rewarded in combat for countering CC, not just "not punished"

How it is (with the information/experience I have on hand):

- a lot of enemy CC is either not telegraphed at all or it's next to impossible to see because of circumstances (ex: vfx of your own abilities, other players effects, stacked together players blocking your view, etc.)

- few classes have robust counters and where those counters exist, they are almost always a simple nullifying effect (stability, aegis) which means people get in the habit of eating CC instead of learning to look for it and/or counter it as it comes

- getting banged around is a regular experience and with how heavily it is spammed against you in some situations, it's easier to just have sustain and strong condi (for ticks while you are stunned) rather than try to engage with the mechanic and position yourself well, look for telegraphs, etc.

Thoughts?

[Shuzuru.3651]

Well, to be fair, I never understood the common complain of CC spam by enemy. Sure, it may have happened to me a few times, but I could probably count it with 2 hands. 

I don't know what "reward" you expected for avoiding those attacks (I mean, it's an attack like an other, hard hitting attack are more impactful, comparatively), but here is one for you : your stunbreak/stability/aegis usually have a long cooldown, dodge has small cooldown, so by dodging, you won't burn those cooldown. 

[Ashantara.8731]

Everytime I roam the EoD maps, I curse the knockbacks/pushes dealt by certain types of enemies. Constant dodging and evading isn't my idea of fun in exploring maps. It's less annoying on certain professions than others, but still... the frequency of those skills is insane at times (see Brotherhood Snipers or some Mechs).
 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[Antycypator.9874]

PvE needs this. It's a great way to bang and kill most of the glass-cannon players.

[Jin.8501]

Knockdown is super obnoxious cc in GW2. 

[Labjax.2465]

1 hour ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

Well, to be fair, I never understood the common complain of CC spam by enemy. Sure, it may have happened to me a few times, but I could probably count it with 2 hands. 

I don't know what "reward" you expected for avoiding those attacks (I mean, it's an attack like an other, hard hitting attack are more impactful, comparatively), but here is one for you : your stunbreak/stability/aegis usually have a long cooldown, dodge has small cooldown, so by dodging, you won't burn those cooldown. 

By rewarded I mean things in the style of projectile reflect. There are certain abilities that reflect projectiles not just block them, so not only do you block projectiles if you use them at the right time, you are rewarded in the form of dealing extra damage to the enemy passively.

Similar could be done for counters to CC that are timed well. Maybe you do damage, maybe if it's an enemy with a breakbar you do some breakbar damage for countering CC at the right time. The goal roughly what I'm talking about is to swing it toward interactivity rather than passivity. In my experience and understanding of it, the current system encourages passivity. Apart from the occasional dodge, you are mostly just popping cooldowns that eat the CC completely or letting it hit you and being built to last through it (cause at a certain point, why bother trying to be strategic if you're going to be pelted with more CC than you can react to anyway).

Edited July 12, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Labjax.2465]

3 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Everytime I roam the EoD maps, I curse the knockbacks/pushes dealt by certain types of enemies. Constant dodging and evading isn't my idea of fun in exploring maps. It's less annoying on certain professions than others, but still... the frequency of those skills is insane at times (see Brotherhood Snipers or some Mechs).
 

Tbh, I use skyscale in most maps now and I think this is one of the main reasons. I actually find it kind of sluggish to get around on, but I get so tired of aggroing every single thing that also wants to shove me off my mount and force me to spend time ending its simulated digital life for the nth time. With skyscale, I can stay high enough to dodge a lot of aggro.

[Ashantara.8731]

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

With skyscale, I can stay high enough to dodge a lot of aggro.

Ditto, but the topic was enemy CC, so... 😉

[Gehenna.3625]

5 hours ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

I don't know what "reward" you expected for avoiding those attacks (I mean, it's an attack like an other, hard hitting attack are more impactful, comparatively), but here is one for you : your stunbreak/stability/aegis usually have a long cooldown, dodge has small cooldown, so by dodging, you won't burn those cooldown. 

However, dodges do have a CD and you might not want to use them instead of the other anti-cc's. Particularly in boss fights where bosses have one-shot-kills aoe's for example. 

People should just play firebrand really. /s

[Shuzuru.3651]

2 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

However, dodges do have a CD and you might not want to use them instead of the other anti-cc's. Particularly in boss fights where bosses have one-shot-kills aoe's for example. 

People should just play firebrand really. /s

Sure, but the cooldown is lower and you got 2 charge by default, and group of mob rarely got one-shot kill. 

Finally, it's simply a matter of knowing what you fight and your defensive options to choose the best in a current situation. 

[disco.9302]

9 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

This is kind of an overview of how I see enemy CC in PvE as it is vs. how I think it could be.

How it could be:

- every enemy CC is well telegraphed and easy to see

- every class has robust counters for CC or sufficient response time to avoid it

- players are rewarded in combat for countering CC, not just "not punished"

How it is (with the information/experience I have on hand):

- a lot of enemy CC is either not telegraphed at all or it's next to impossible to see because of circumstances (ex: vfx of your own abilities, other players effects, stacked together players blocking your view, etc.)

- few classes have robust counters and where those counters exist, they are almost always a simple nullifying effect (stability, aegis) which means people get in the habit of eating CC instead of learning to look for it and/or counter it as it comes

- getting banged around is a regular experience and with how heavily it is spammed against you in some situations, it's easier to just have sustain and strong condi (for ticks while you are stunned) rather than try to engage with the mechanic and position yourself well, look for telegraphs, etc.

Thoughts?

how it is:

1. most CCs from mobs can be seen or in some cases need to be learned and/or anticipated. The game does a lot to telegraph the vast majority of CCs.
2. every class has access to stunbreaks, most classes have stability of some sort,  all classes are able to dodge.
3. being unprepared or oblivious to your environment can be punishing in a minority of circumstances. In OW mobs give plenty of time to react, break out of a stun or simply run away. In instanced content, mechanics have consistent telegraphs or in a few circumstances require players to learn the sequence of attacks and CCs to beat the mechanic.

 

In conclusion, if you chose not to take stab or stunbreaks or any mitigating skills, be prepared to time your dodges better. If you are struggling with the same content, re-evaluate the enemy and see if you can spot a pattern remembering which may be beneficial.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

38 minutes ago, disco.9302 said:

1. most CCs from mobs can be seen or in some cases need to be learned and/or anticipated. The game does a lot to telegraph the vast majority of CCs.

i wouldnt be so sure about that, id say its closer 50-50 on whether cc on mobs is actually (and appropriately) telegraphed or not

possible mobs that support the ops view that instantly come to mind are the brotherhood/speaker mobs with rifles/bows (from eod) - the ones with the rifle have a delayed knowdown round thats very easy to dodge too early/late and a 1/4s cast time rifle butt, and both have relatively very low cooldowns (way lower than a single 30s cd stun break can handle). if im not mixing up different games, the ones with bows have some evasive firecracker skill that launches and cant reliably be anticipated aside from “dont go melee”. this is rather negligible when facing these mobs 1v1, but these mobs are designed to patrol in packs where the other mobs may/may not have their own cc, so it can sometimes become a pinball machine. i dont think it happens often or is that much of a big deal, but when it does it can feel pretty degrading for the player

a mob ppl might be more familiar with is the awakened canids from pof, their knockdown is also more or less a short 1/2s cast and they also have a 6-8k hit that looks like another autoattack, unlike the unburrow which is telegraphed

the charging mushroom can potentially knockdown before its charge animation even starts and theres definitely other “unfair” interactions many of us have just shrugged off because it didnt mean much at the time. i guess this is a thing though, that a number of players find certain things more annoying than others

[Labjax.2465]

11 minutes ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

the charging mushroom can potentially knockdown before its charge animation even starts and theres definitely other “unfair” interactions many of us have just shrugged off because it didnt mean much at the time. i guess this is a thing though, that a number of players find certain things more annoying than others

As far as that goes, the most I can extrapolate without getting into pure speculation is I know there's some percentage of people out there who really don't like being controlled in any way. Like everybody has a need for autonomy, but for them, not being controlled is the main motivating force in their life. So I think it's safe to assume some of those people would find the CC spam intolerable and just quit the game.

Personally, I have a little bit of that in me, but I can mostly push it aside for other priorities. It still gets to me though, sometimes more than others. In some of the longer moments (like long stuns or getting caught in a ping pong effect of CC) I find myself having thoughts like... why am I even playing the game. If I'm not getting the chance to even use my abilities, what is the point. I assume some designers out there think it makes for interesting gameplay? I struggle to see the appeal in designing games with so much CC from NPCs and I've seen it in more than one MMO. Like I have a hard time seeing the value in design where your game is, in some sense, frozen because the extension of you (your character) cannot do anything right now. It seems like a great way to disrupt a state of flow and take you out of the moment. That's more my experience with it anyway.

But if it was more like I described in the OP how it "could be," at least I could shrug it off and say "I can master this system." Instead, I just find myself disengaging and considering how many people I see getting knocked around in open world, I'm sure I'm not the only one who gives up on it at times.

[Dawdler.8521]

Every player thinking that CC spam is bad in PvE should be locked in a room with Spymaster Grella and then asked again once they come out.

[Gibson.4036]

I wonder if some of the frustration comes from the difference in the open world with normal mobs versus instanced or repeated champ/elite fights.

In an instance you face a particular boss or even particular groups of mobs in a given order, and you repeat them until you can pass them, giving you a chance to learn their telegraphs and patterns.

In the open world you run around, get ambushed by a bunch of shrooms, then a flock of pocket raptors, next a couple Mordrem, then some angry frogs. It doesn’t give the same type of repeat-and-learn environment.

There are plenty of bounties and instance fights that I’ve done enough to tell myself, “d’oh, I totally didn’t pay attention to that hammer swing” when I get sent flying. I’ve farmed enough winterberriesthat  I know the troll way over there is going to start shooting his ice crystals at me.

But there are plenty of places in the game I’ve spent significant time in that I couldn’t tell you when the various attacks are going to launch or what to look for right before. So instead of that “oops, I missed that one” reaction it’s more like “cc, used my break, oh, another cc, man they just keep chaining, okay… waypointing”.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Justine.6351]

I remember caudecus fight in LS4. That was truly horrible. Havnt had too much to complain about since.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Any time bloodstone elemental appears - yup, time2ragdoll again...

[HowlKamui.5120]

GW2 already does a good job of telegraphing attacks that need to be telegraphed... Not every CC needs to be telegraphed, especially if it comes from common mobs. Learn that a mob can do it, and just anticipate it the next time and time a blind/move out of the way/etc. CC breaks are a last resort, always.

Every class already has robust counters to CC, some more than others, but that's depending on how you build em.

 

[Labjax.2465]

7 minutes ago, HowlKamui.5120 said:

GW2 already does a good job of telegraphing attacks that need to be telegraphed... Not every CC needs to be telegraphed, especially if it comes from common mobs. Learn that a mob can do it, and just anticipate it the next time and time a blind/move out of the way/etc. CC breaks are a last resort, always.

Every class already has robust counters to CC, some more than others, but that's depending on how you build em.

 

Right, so explain to me how we are supposed to anticipate something that isn't telegraphed... we supposed to use the force? Play for hours and hours against each mob, studying all of its moves so we can internalize every move it makes and when? For a video game?

And every class has robust counters to CC??? In what way?

[HowlKamui.5120]

7 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Right, so explain to me how we are supposed to anticipate something that isn't telegraphed... we supposed to use the force? Play for hours and hours against each mob, studying all of its moves so we can internalize every move it makes and when? For a video game?

And every class has robust counters to CC??? In what way?

It's mob dependent, no? Just be familiar that mob A does it, and fight around it until he does it. When he does, kill him. Better yet, know which mobs are problematic for your build, and kill it first straight away with your high damage abilities. This isn't a new concept in RPGs...You see the mob that explodes? kill it before it explodes, or stay away from it, same thing.

And yes, *every single class* in this game can solo. Some are more adept at evading with mobility, dodges, blinds, invulnerability, etc, while some can just take the beating. Yea, it's a valid counter to CC... being able to survive through it. If you don't like being ragdolled (the necro experience), then try a different class/espec. I'm not about to tell you how to play each class though.

To be clear, you ARE talking about open world PVE right? 

Edited July 13, 2022 by HowlKamui.5120

[Labjax.2465]

54 minutes ago, HowlKamui.5120 said:

It's mob dependent, no? Just be familiar that mob A does it, and fight around it until he does it. When he does, kill him. Better yet, know which mobs are problematic for your build, and kill it first straight away with your high damage abilities. This isn't a new concept in RPGs...You see the mob that explodes? kill it before it explodes, or stay away from it, same thing.

And yes, *every single class* in this game can solo. Some are more adept at evading with mobility, dodges, blinds, invulnerability, etc, while some can just take the beating. Yea, it's a valid counter to CC... being able to survive through it. If you don't like being ragdolled (the necro experience), then try a different class/espec. I'm not about to tell you how to play each class though.

To be clear, you ARE talking about open world PVE right? 

I thought naw, they won't go there, but your advice is actually to memorize every mob's moves and timing by heart, and then stand around and wait for the ability to go off lol. Jeez. RPG means role playing game, it doesn't mean memorize every enemy's ability and timing by heart. The one has nothing to do with the other. So trying to talk down to me about this like it's just how RPGs are is mind-boggling.

And I hope I am misreading and you are not seriously trying to say that surviving through CC while on the ground is a counter to it. That's not what counter means.

How about if you don't like me complaining about this aspect of the game, go hang out in a different thread. Instead of telling me to play a different class. Unbelievable.

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Right, so explain to me how we are supposed to anticipate something that isn't telegraphed... we supposed to use the force? Play for hours and hours against each mob, studying all of its moves so we can internalize every move it makes and when? For a video game?

And every class has robust counters to CC??? In what way?

I dislike the implication that the expectation of improving via practice is undesirable.  The problem I have with your suggestion of relying on obvious telegraphs is that they necessarily slow the pacing of combat down, shifting from anticipation to relying on UI indicators to tell you when it's time to dodge.  That's your preference and you're welcome to it, but the fast-paced combat in GW2 is the major draw to me and your suggestion would ruin that.

 

[Shuzuru.3651]

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I thought naw, they won't go there, but your advice is actually to memorize every mob's moves and timing by heart, and then stand around and wait for the ability to go off lol. Jeez. RPG means role playing game, it doesn't mean memorize every enemy's ability and timing by heart. The one has nothing to do with the other. So trying to talk down to me about this like it's just how RPGs are is mind-boggling.

And I hope I am misreading and you are not seriously trying to say that surviving through CC while on the ground is a counter to it. That's not what counter means.

How about if you don't like me complaining about this aspect of the game, go hang out in a different thread. Instead of telling me to play a different class. Unbelievable.

Except... He is right, RPG, by nature, is about memorizing enemies abilities, because RPG is turn based, in it's origin, so unless an enemy take a turn charging an attack (it's rare), the concept of telegraph doesn't exist.

Knowing what an enemy can do is crucial in an RPG, by definition. That's also why in this type of game, you usually don't fight big group of enemy you don't, it's better to start with smaller groups to learn the enemies abilities

[Cuks.8241]

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I thought naw, they won't go there, but your advice is actually to memorize every mob's moves and timing by heart, and then stand around and wait for the ability to go off lol. Jeez. RPG means role playing game, it doesn't mean memorize every enemy's ability and timing by heart. The one has nothing to do with the other. So trying to talk down to me about this like it's just how RPGs are is mind-boggling.

It applies to all types of games, rpg included. 

[Gehenna.3625]

On 7/12/2022 at 1:13 PM, Shuzuru.3651 said:

Finally, it's simply a matter of knowing what you fight and your defensive options to choose the best in a current situation. 

Well and this is what it comes down to. But I think a lot of people aren't interested in that sort of thing. I find myself in OW also often accepting a knockback or knockdown because in the end, it doesn't really matter.

Also because OW boss fights tend to have mechanics that you can ignore the vast majority of the time. And the mechanics tend to be more annoying than interesting as it is. So why care if Anet doesn't care?