Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!

[mungozen.2379]

8 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

True but isn't that same.

2v1 is definitely the same as 1v1 lolol.

One shot builds imply you are soloing a single player from 100 to 0 health in a couple of seconds or less.  Two people locking down one player and the second finishing them off is not the same thing. At all. Ever. 
 

I am sure you and your partner have a lot of fun and success in competitive modes as a duo. I don’t want to take away the enjoyment of what you are doing, but factually in the context of what we are talking about that isn’t the same thing. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Mungo Zen.9364

[Veprovina.4876]

Ah, so it's not one shotting, it's ganking by two people, got it. And with a oneshot Ranger too.

So claiming that Virtuoso has a oneshot build is false.

Glad we cleared that up.

[Mell.4873]

44 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Ah, so it's not one shotting, it's ganking by two people, got it. And with a oneshot Ranger too.

So claiming that Virtuoso has a oneshot build is false.

Glad we cleared that up.

Okay....
Should I just play without her then..

I mean she can down people by herself, again I'm not here to really prove anything, I'm just telling you what we do. I'm not making grand claims that Mesmer is broken, and no one plays it like you guys do. I'm just saying we have fun, and it is fine in PvP. 

 

I just described her build as one shotting too. I never rigidly tied to soloing other players in the most elitist style.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Veprovina.4876]

5 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Should I just play without her then..

No Mell, no one is saying you can't play with your Wife, people aren't calling you out on playing with your wife, they're calling you out on misrepresenting your case which in the end just serves to hurt Mesmers.

If you have fun, fine, if she can down people on her own, great.

But you said it's a oneshot build - which - if you're both playing - it's not.

 

This is what always happens, someone makes some outlandish claim, Anet doesn't bother to even check, and nerfs something, just because you couldn't be bothered to explain yourself.

 

And now that you did - it's very much NOT what you claim it to be, and everyone told you so.

 

I don't know what you think you're accomplishing by this, or maybe you're doing this on purpose, i'm done figuring it out.

 

In the future, when you make claims like that, please spend 2 more minutes to explain what you mean.

No one is denying you fun.

 

But "my wife plays oneshot virtuoso" is not the same as "i play with my wife and we duo focus people" or even "my wife can down people with virtuoso".

 

People have told you this again and again, even in the Virtuoso beta - you singing praises when there's actual issues that need fixing isn't helping anyone, not even yourself because you could be having a more functional experience than you're having now - even if you like the state it's in now.

 

 

[Daniel Handler.4816]

Just now, Mell.4873 said:

Okay....
Should I just play without her then..

I mean she can down people by herself, again I'm not here to really prove anything, I'm just telling you what we do.

I'm not making grand claims that Mesmer is broken, and no one plays it like you guys do. I'm just saying we have fun, and it is fine in PvP. 

Hey Mell. The thing is, the people in sPvP want it to be more than fine because other professions are more than fine. They want to win and climb the competitive ladder.

There are absolutely one shot builds. But for the vast majority of Mesmer players, myself included, it only works against bad players. There are very very few people who can execute these combos against a good player. Not just because it requires excellent muscle memory, but also because any amount of network latency is going to screw you over. 

That being said. Because there are people who have the skill and internet speed to do these combos successfully Anet will often balance top down. They might be more flexible about this thinking in the future though. It is very similar to the  discussion on not balancing around benchmarks, and they seemed to understand we shouldn't be punished in PvE because people on Snow Crows are min-maxing against golems. But they might be too nervous to make changes in PvP.

 

[Daniel Handler.4816]

On 2/3/2023 at 1:06 PM, apharma.3741 said:

I was looking through the old forum, man we became so jaded now, so many names no longer around either 😿
Edit: Fay and Pyroatheist, man I haven't seen them in years, looks like they dropped off end of 2019 and 2020.

I started playing this game as a child. And Fay/Pyro were older then. It has been 10 years. 🧓 Maybe they have kids.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Daniel Handler.4816]

On 2/21/2023 at 4:14 PM, katte nici.9483 said:

That's so true. Every roamer is stronger or faster or both. You can't chase them down, you can't run away from them and you can't beat them 1v1 if they are any good. Isn't Mesmer supposed to be "The Duelist Profession"?

  

On 2/18/2023 at 10:50 AM, apharma.3741 said:

That's the point, people don't and most won't play mesmer. You can scream what you have said till your lungs bleed but they're not listening to your message in that way. So you need to communicate in the way they will listen and will accept.

I'll play well know ranger main of the forum devils advocate.

Mirage has plenty of invuln, mirage cloak and blocks, it doesn't need another dodge, see this build: https://guildjen.com/condition-ambush-mirage-roaming-build/
Mirage defences:
Distortion 4s every 42.5s
Signet of midnight 1s distortion every 35s, 2s every minute.
Signet of midnight 2s stealth every 35s, 4s every minute
Signet of ether 1s every 30s, 2s every minute
Signet of illusions 1s distortion every 60s + 4s from refreshed distortion 
Sceptre 2s block every 8s, easiest to say 6 times every minute.
Aegis from Chaos storm 1 block every 35s, 2 every minute.
Desert Distortion 3 mirrors each 42.5s, 6 mirrors every minute (signet of illusions)
The Prestige: 3s stealth every 30s, 6s every minute
Total defence per minute:
13s invuln
6 mirrors (4.5s mirage cloak)
8 blocks.
10s stealth.
Total amount of ambushes per minute: 20 (13 + 6 from dodge and no vigor assumed +1 at start)

Let's not return to this 😂 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nIIAdhSGoo

Devils advocate hat off. This is me saying how others might attack and justify not returning the second dodge. I believe it should have a 2nd dodge back but the above calculation will easily persuade many not to return the 2nd dodge especially if they're biased. You need to talk to them like this to change their minds because they won't play mesmer and they won't listen unless you show that mesmer is weak in a way they cannot escape acknowledging. This post is long enough but I can do the math and show mirage is weak and needs it's 2nd dodge, sorry to those who hate walls of text.

Non blurred inscriptions or desert distortion mirage see link but don't pick desert distortion: https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/mesmer/interrupt-mirage/
Mirage defences:
Distortion 4s every 42.5s
The Prestige: 3s stealth every 24s, 9s every minute
Signet of midnight 2s stealth every 35s, 4s every minute
Axes of symmetry 0.75s every 8s, 5.25s every minutes.
False oasis 1 mirror every 30s, 2 mirrors a minute

Total defences per minute:
13s stealth
4s Invuln
5.25s evasion (not dodge or cloak)
2 mirrors (1.5s mirage cloak)
Total ambushes per minute: 10 (vigor uptime assuming it takes on average 8s to regen a dodge. +2 mirrors +1 at start)

I have not counted the evasion from dodging as it's roughly the same between the 2 builds thanks to vigor nerfs, only counted the mirage cloak access as dodge utilisation is tricky to work out, show and prove while many skills are easier to show and have wiggle roam in uses per minute. I have also not counted boons and other aspects of mirage as historically it wasn't complained about outside of the now nerfed chaos trait line and CI.
As you can see without those 2 traits in a build that many consider "skilful" the defences and ambush potential is massively reduced to a point that it would not be an issue bringing back one dodge at all. If need be these 2 traits can be addressed but should be addressed separately and mirage should have it's 2nd dodge returned. Feel free to use this next time people pause about mirage dodge.

Edit: I didn't want to type out another response so I'll put it here. That's more or less what I'm saying @Moradorin.6217 that these people are biased and aren't listening so we need to go at them in a way they can't dismiss or deny. Hence the above wall of text showing that without 2 traits mirage builds are light on the defensive side and so there's no reason to hold back on 2nd dodge. A lot of people still see mirage as in the video from that hate fuelled guy which is the image we need to counter.

 

These two comments are fundamentally at odds with each other. And raises a bigger problem, at least for me.

20 sword ambushes a minute means you CAN chase anyone down, and you CAN run away from them.  And it is the most fun part of the spec. Even if it can't 1v1 a daredevil.

Is there a world where Anet buffs mirage so it can duel the celestial builds you described. But also keeps it as fast as before?

[Infusion.7149]

You know balance discussions are in the gutter and not in good faith if people have to resort to using 2v1 to make a point...

[Mell.4873]

Lol I like how everyone took the time to entertain my one shot description only to claim I lied to you.

Why even ask if you just wanted to gloat. I don't see how playing with someone invalidates it's potential in PvP.

@Veprovina.4876 @Infusion.7149

You know why they nerf Mesmer, because most players hate us. Whenever I mention PvP and Mesmers in any guild chat people tell me they want it nerfed even more. They tell me its incredible unfair to be killed by someone they can't even identify among the many clones it has. 

Im not convincing Arena Net that Mesmer needs more nerfs it is the wider player base which is trying. I even stick up for you guys most of the time sigh, atleast I bother chatting with you all. 

[Veprovina.4876]

30 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Why even ask if you just wanted to gloat.

I just asked what the build is so i can try it/see it. That's all. You're the one that got all defensive about it, and you did lie by claiming it's a oneshot build when it wasn't (later confirmed by you yourself), so i don't know what part i played here. If you don't want people to point out your false claims, don't make them.

 

So throw a tantrum if you want, or put words in my mouth, but the reality is - you made a false claim and got called out for it, that's all there is to it. You're free to enjoy the build, you're free to play with your wife, but your claim has proven to be false.

 

30 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I don't see how playing with someone invalidates it's potential in PvP.

I don't know what that means or has anything to do with anything so...

 

30 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

You know why they nerf Mesmer, because most players hate us. Whenever I mention PvP and Mesmers in any guild chat people tell me they want it nerfed even more. They tell me its incredible unfair to be killed by someone they can't even identify among the many clones it has. 

Has been discussed before and has nothing to do with what you did.

And not only are you now deflecting - and whether intentionally or not, you're steering this conversation into "flame war" territory - which i won't be a part of. Bait not taken.

 

Feel free to think whatever you want about me, i just wanted the awesome build you mentioned. You then jumped into your own mouth later on... 🤷‍♂️

Edited February 24, 2023 by Veprovina.4876

[Infusion.7149]

32 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Lol I like how everyone took the time to entertain my one shot description only to claim I lied to you.

Why even ask if you just wanted to gloat. I don't see how playing with someone invalidates it's potential in PvP.

@Veprovina.4876 @Infusion.7149

You know why they nerf Mesmer, because most players hate us. Whenever I mention PvP and Mesmers in any guild chat people tell me they want it nerfed even more. They tell me its incredible unfair to be killed by someone they can't even identify among the many clones it has. 

Im not convincing Arena Net that Mesmer needs more nerfs it is the wider player base which is trying. I even stick up for you guys most of the time sigh, atleast I bother chatting with you all. 

So balance should be based off people that cannot tell a mesmer from a clone? The best part is you mention one shot virtuoso which has no clones.

In the current state of the game, it is quite easy to AoE down melee clones anyway; the ranged clones that do condi are hard countered by reflect and greatsword power clones do single digit damage. Just about every class has AoE built in which annihilates all melee clones as every cleave is 3+ targets unless you use a dagger.

It is actually easier to one shot someone with rapidfire one wolf pack than a virtuoso with the new signet of the hunt change and doubly so if the person is on a warclaw ; grenade barrage power holo ; you could make a similar case for berserker gunflame signet of might memes. That does not even include non projectiles either such as any form of glass guardian (willbender/trap longbow DH with true shot) teleport combos , vindicators which now have 2 dodges, daredevils with backstab combos, or catalyst scepter DT combos (with unblockable from relentless fire).

Edited February 24, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Daniel Handler.4816]

41 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You know balance discussions are in the gutter and not in good faith if people have to resort to using 2v1 to make a point...

Except @Mell.4873 is correct. There are one shot builds. It's just relatively unlikely you will one shot a good player unless you are exceptionally good. Harping on him for being wrong on the term derails the conversation.

 

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Except @Mell.4873 is correct. There are one shot builds. It's just relatively unlikely you will one shot a good player unless you are exceptionally good. Harping on him for being wrong on the term derails the conversation.

 

The thread is about mirage and they are bringing up one shot virtuoso which A. does not have clones they are complaining about B. has two dodges. How is that derailing the conversation if I am pointing out it is 100% not relevant to this thread?

[Veprovina.4876]

2 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Except @Mell.4873 is correct. There are one shot builds. It's just relatively unlikely you will one shot a good player unless you are exceptionally good. Harping on him for being wrong on the term derails the conversation.

 

Except that's not what Mell claimed. First of - like @Infusion.7149 said, the thread is about Mirage.

Second - Mell said he plays with his wife which is not oneshotting, that's ganking, and only after pressed cause he didn't want to share the build in the first place.

 

And honestly, looking at the build, i play something similar, that's not one shotting anyone. Not even bad players.

But that whole conversation about Virtuoso, then complaining about clones that virtuoso doesn't have is derailing the fact that we still have one dodge Mirage, and we still haven't heard anything from Anet.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

5 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The thread is about mirage and they are bringing up one shot virtuoso which A. does not have clones they are complaining about B. has two dodges. How is that derailing the conversation if I am pointing out it is 100% not relevant to this thread?

Yeah. You're also right. But arguing over what is and is not a one shot isn't really helpful either. 

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

I just asked what the build is so i can try it/see it. That's all. You're the one that got all defensive about it, and you did lie by claiming it's a oneshot build when it wasn't (later confirmed by you yourself), so i don't know what part i played here. If you don't want people to point out your false claims, don't make them.

 

So throw a tantrum if you want, or put words in my mouth, but the reality is - you made a false claim and got called out for it, that's all there is to it. You're free to enjoy the build, you're free to play with your wife, but your claim has proven to be false.

 

I don't know what that means or has anything to do with anything so...

 

Has been discussed before and has nothing to do with what you did.

And not only are you now deflecting - and whether intentionally or not, you're steering this conversation into "flame war" territory - which i won't be a part of. Bait not taken.

 

Feel free to think whatever you want about me, i just wanted the awesome build you mentioned. You then jumped into your own mouth later on... 🤷‍♂️

I gave you the build but you just wanted to point out that it wasn't being played solo. Go critique my build and not how it is being played then... 

I never made false claims, I just described the build as one shotting. It's just the theme of the build, to do as much damage in as little time as possible. 

Again look at the build.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Mell.4873]

53 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The thread is about mirage and they are bringing up one shot virtuoso which A. does not have clones they are complaining about B. has two dodges. How is that derailing the conversation if I am pointing out it is 100% not relevant to this thread?

True I don't know why people are focusing on what I said so much, I do want the Mirage second dodge back. The OP took it on a tangent based on my off-topic comment. 

[apharma.3741]

2 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

  

 

These two comments are fundamentally at odds with each other. And raises a bigger problem, at least for me.

20 sword ambushes a minute means you CAN chase anyone down, and you CAN run away from them.  And it is the most fun part of the spec. Even if it can't 1v1 a daredevil.

Is there a world where Anet buffs mirage so it can duel the celestial builds you described. But also keeps it as fast as before?

I don't think it's at odds with itself when you look at my original 2 quotes, you either run blurred inscriptions and desert distortion for mobility and then realise you have no damage because you're either using a power weapon in a condition build or don't have damage traits so do little damage compared to other top tier roamers. The other option is you run damage traits but end up without this combo and so half the number of ambushes, not being able to chain 2-3 mirage thrusts is basically asking to die on mirage in WvW unless you go chaos and PU but then you're in the same boat, no damage.

ANet needs to remove the blurred inscriptions/desert distortion interaction as you just can't buff vigor on mirage while that exists. Then buff vigor, get rid of those silly mirrors and maybe have deceptions give endurance back. The ideal is that mirage should be running 2 deceptions in it's optimal builds but they're just not there yet.

[Waffles.5632]

I knew I had some footage so wanted to clear up any confusions.

Here is a one shot:

 

Even tho it's spvp, you can see I did ~90% of the damage through a combined effort of using several different abilities all at once to "make a play" and burst someone down.

"One shotting" is important because that's what lets you apply pressure against the enemy team. Downing an opponent quickly means their team now has to make a choice on whether to rez them or not. When people say one shot, these are the situations they mean. How easily can a class do this during a match/under pressure, etc etc.

To say you have/saw a one shotting virtuoso means they can consistently "snipe" people during team fights or roaming by itself with at most limited help from other classes, such as AOE's that should always be expected or something.

 

This is a gank:

 

You can see, even though I did a lot of damage in the second video, if you look closely, they are already downed before any of my abilities hit. Several one shot builds can take part in a gank, but that doesn't mean every build participating in a gank is a one shot build.

If you're always with someone you can rely on, you're in a gank squad, thus all your "one shots" are skewed because you have an entire person helping you achieve the same goal. It makes all the difference.

 

In the first video the person could have reacted differently and achieved a different outcome, in the second video, because it is a gank, there is no way those two people could have done anything differently, they were simply caught dead to rights. No amount of skillful play or defense they could muster would have seen them survive that situation. That's how ganks operate, outnumber your enemy while catching them off guard (like opening from stealth 4v2 in the video)

 

Now not all ganks are that fast, because no one is truly defenseless, but mechanically speaking, there's just no way out of the 2nd video, so you can't call it a solo one shot, it was a situation only made possible through teamwork. This is the crucial difference and why 1v1 and 1v2 will never be the same. Plenty of builds that seem to work when accompanied by a +1 may not actually work when you take out that +1.

 

You can bait out and defend against a lone one shot build, you can't really do so against a gank where two or more people are focusing you, that is the very nature of gw2 pvp, nobody can actually survive equal skill if it's 2v1 or 3v1. At best you can claim better position and stall, but eventually you're going down no two ways about it.

 

 

With that being said, Virtu is most likely the most damaging spec we have atm. I would say it's either that or some version of power chrono, but idk those two elites very well. It certainly isn't Mirage as Power Mirage is dps support at best and I just don't think condi Mirage has any burst going on atm lol. So if anything, Virtu would be the best pick for one shotting, but that doesn't mean it's good at it, or equal/comparable to other builds that one shot. The major thing about a Virtu is it's overt defense in how hard it is to focus and take down, not it's burst.

Ironically, Virtu's best position is as a +1 because it forces the enemy into a very hard choice, if I leave the virtu alone, they will whittle me down from range, but I can't exactly focus the Virtu either, because they have another teammate, so I have to find a way to bait out their defenses, while avoiding their offenses AND dealing with whoever their teammates are. (ranger in your case, which means pet AI too, so technically this is a 3v1, even harder.)

 

See what I'm saying? When you're on a consistent team that you can communicate with, everything changes because now you can afford to specialize, since your teammates can cover your weaknesses, and vice versa. What you deem as one shotting, isn't actually the case because the Virtu is getting help every time from you. Take away that help and see how much lower their success rate would be for a more accurate perspective.

 

Using my build and playstyle for example, Let's say, conservatively, I could win against both you and your wife separately 6 or 7 out of 10 times. However if I have to face you both together at the same time, legit I might be able to win 1 or 2 times out of 10. That is the difference between one shots and ganks. At their core, one shots revolve more around skill while ganks revolve more around strategy and numbers.

 

But don't feel bad about ganks, or even one shots. These are valid things in all pvp games like gw2. People will always look to these strategies to win. Just there is a stark factual difference between a roaming one shot build, and a roaming gank squad. You gave people hope by saying roaming one shot virtu build but then snatched it away by saying you two always roam together.

I could have a roaming one shot power mirage build if I always had one or two friends by my side.. 🤔

@Mell.4873

 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Varis.5467]

6 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

We normally Roam together so I guess I help her, but she can still one-shot people if we lock them down. You essentially spam Phantasms with the build she uses.

Quote

....at the end of full rotation, we down someone I would say they were one shot. 

Look, I don't care if you are playing with your wife or whoever, but a rotation and 'spamming phantasms' are not 'one-shotting' - you literally just stated the involvement of multiple skills leading up to a kill. 

 

And no, you can't just claim this is not how you interpret 'one-shot', there is nothing to interpret here, 'one-shot' as a term is as simple to understand as it gets. If it doesn't fit your narrative of the story you are telling, better luck finding the right word next time. 

[Mell.4873]

17 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

But don't feel bad about ganks, or even one shots. These are valid things in all pvp games like gw2. People will always look to these strategies to win. Just there is a stark factual difference between a roaming one shot build, and a roaming gank squad. You gave people hope by saying roaming one shot virtu build but then snatched it away by saying you two always roam together.

I could have a roaming one shot power mirage build if I always had one or two friends by my side.. 🤔

@Mell.4873

We mostly just try and cover each other. The damage we both do is pretty crazy so normally it is one person who downs the enemy.

The class spread really helps since Virtuoso can't deal with barriers but a Soulbeast Barrage can. Virtuoso stealth is also very nice and my wife will often run more when needed in conjunction with Mimic. 

We just have fun at the back line of the Zerg, throwing clones and aoe into the middle of a clash. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Mell.4873]

2 minutes ago, Varis.5467 said:

Look, I don't care if you are playing with your wife or whoever, but a rotation and 'spamming phantasms' are not 'one-shotting' - you literally just stated the involvement of multiple skills leading up to a kill. 

 

And no, you can't just claim this is not how you interpret 'one-shot', there is nothing to interpret here, 'one-shot' as a term is as simple to understand as it gets. If it doesn't fit your narrative of the story you are telling, better luck finding the right word next time. 

Its just the theme we are going for, I'm not really putting a line in the sand claiming this is the definition of a one shotting build. 

I guess we are both glass builds. That might be more accurate even if our entire kit is about boosting damage at a critical point. I mean I share my stances to so that helps. 

[Varis.5467]

3 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Its just the theme we are going for, I'm not really putting a line in the sand claiming this is the definition of a one shotting build. 

I guess we are both glass builds. That might be more accurate even if our entire kit is about boosting damage at a critical point. I mean I share my stances to so that helps. 

Unfortunately you guys have a very poorly fitted theme then, because from what you have told us, the builds are not achieving that at all. 

[Mell.4873]

13 minutes ago, Varis.5467 said:

Unfortunately you guys have a very poorly fitted theme then, because from what you have told us, the builds are not achieving that at all. 

Okay...

Great you clarified how we play.

Greatsword 4 + Shatters F1 is the closest thing to a one shot. Then she will follow up with Mimic + Disenchanter + Disenchanter. Then the Signet of Ether can then be used to reset everything again

Edited February 24, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Varis.5467]

Just now, Mell.4873 said:

Okay... 

Yeah, okay.