Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!

[Varis.5467]

27 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Okay...

Great you clarified how we play.

Greatsword 4 + Shatters F1 is the closest thing to a one shot. Then she will follow up with Mimic + Disenchanter + Disenchanter. Then the Signet of Ether can then be used to reset everything again

Good try on the edit. 

 

But no, this is not what you claim it is nor does it fit the theme you mention after the fact - no matter how 'close it is to one shot' - there is no grey area here. It is either a one shot kill or it is not, arguing it is 'close enought' is just telling us it does not equate to one. 

 

No one cares what build you play. What people do care here is the argument you bring to the forum. But unfortunately most of yours are poorly supported and when others ask for supporting points you shift your points in attempts to invalidate any questions. See when you do exactly this, there is no discussion and it is not constructive at all. 

 

Edit: typos.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Varis.5467

[Mell.4873]

1 minute ago, Varis.5467 said:

Good try on the edit. 

 

But no, this is not what you claim it is nor does it fit the theme you mention after the fact - no matter how 'close it is to one shot' - there is no grey area here. It is either a one shot kill or it is not, arguing it is 'close enought' is just telling us it does not equate to one. 

 

No one cares what build you play. What people do care here is the argument you bring to the forum. But unfortunately most of yours are poorly supported and when others asks for supporting points you either shift your points in attempts to invalidate any questions. See wheb you do exactly this, there is no discussion and it is not constructive at all. 

Sorry i posted it on accident. 

Anyway I can stop derailing the topic and leave it at that. I never meant to entertain Veprovina  asking about the one shot build.

Hmm the support thing is interested since like I said the wider player base tend to agree with me and find alot of my suggestions very helpful. I mean playing Inspiration Virtuoso is very fun in PvE and people far prefer it to Mirage/Chronomancer when I show them the build.

Anyway I'll stop here, have fun with you second dodge thread, I hope you get it back. 

[AshkyLicious.4729]

Can we all just keep to the topic please, which is Mirage! Like there's so much drama going on in this thread and it's taking away all the attention from the main subject!

One shotting virtuoso isnt Mirage, Chrono discussions isnt Mirage, general mesmer discussions isnt Mirage!

🤦‍♂️

 

[Salt Mode.3780]

8 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

True but isn't that the same.

Come out of stealth and blow someone up. We do play these builds in Zergs to due to the Ranged.

I guess we are not one-shotting by this definition, if at the end of full rotation, we down someone I would say they were one shot. We are not downing people without them having some counter play, that would be unfair otherwise. My wife does not like being mean to other players so I'm sure she would hate it.

A true definition of a one-shot is going from 100-0 without them being able to retaliate. Normally this combo is made within a 2-4 max sec timeframe. Anything other than that is not called a "one-shot." Please understand this terminology before being used because it is WAY overused without people knowing the full context. There are skills out there that can do nearly the same amount with fewer skills to press. Mesmer combos have always been one of the longest and most taxing compared to other specs as it requires us to blow most of our cooldowns to achieve this.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

A true definition of a one-shot is going from 100-0 without them being able to retaliate. Normally this combo is made within a 2-4 max sec timeframe. Anything other than that is not called a "one-shot." Please understand this terminology before being used because it is WAY overused without people knowing the full context. There are skills out there that can do nearly the same amount with fewer skills to press. Mesmer combos have always been one of the longest and most taxing compared to other specs as it requires us to blow most of our cooldowns to achieve this.

Yeah I argee

[Loic.9657]

Imagine person who always confused about people's discussion and situation, but keeps trying to assert things, and then confidently defends his views, tries to obscure, rationalizes his wrong arguments, and never self-reflects.

Then, as mature and rule-abiding people, you can only respect every different voice, even if such voices are obviously here to disrupt and obscure the topic of discussion.

Pathetic.

[Mell.4873]

4 minutes ago, Loic.9657 said:

Imagine person who always confused about people's discussion and situation, but keeps trying to assert things, and then confidently defends his views, tries to obscure, rationalizes his wrong arguments, and never self-reflects.

Then, as mature and rule-abiding people, you can only respect every different voice, even if such voices are obviously here to disrupt and obscure the topic of discussion.

Pathetic.

Yes, and I didn't just agree with Salt Mode right above your post....
I was wrong about describing it as a one-shot build by everyone's definition. It's probably the least egregious thing I have stated.

I mean advocate bringing Inspiration Virtuoso into Raid to off-heal (which I do).

Edited February 25, 2023 by Mell.4873

[katte nici.9483]

23 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

I don't think it's at odds with itself when you look at my original 2 quotes, you either run blurred inscriptions and desert distortion for mobility and then realise you have no damage because you're either using a power weapon in a condition build or don't have damage traits so do little damage compared to other top tier roamers. The other option is you run damage traits but end up without this combo and so half the number of ambushes, not being able to chain 2-3 mirage thrusts is basically asking to die on mirage in WvW unless you go chaos and PU but then you're in the same boat, no damage.

ANet needs to remove the blurred inscriptions/desert distortion interaction as you just can't buff vigor on mirage while that exists. Then buff vigor, get rid of those silly mirrors and maybe have deceptions give endurance back. The ideal is that mirage should be running 2 deceptions in it's optimal builds but they're just not there yet.

Couldn't have said it any better. ❤️

[Daniel Handler.4816]

On 2/24/2023 at 4:40 PM, apharma.3741 said:

I don't think it's at odds with itself when you look at my original 2 quotes, you either run blurred inscriptions and desert distortion for mobility and then realise you have no damage because you're either using a power weapon in a condition build or don't have damage traits so do little damage compared to other top tier roamers. The other option is you run damage traits but end up without this combo and so half the number of ambushes, not being able to chain 2-3 mirage thrusts is basically asking to die on mirage in WvW unless you go chaos and PU but then you're in the same boat, no damage.

ANet needs to remove the blurred inscriptions/desert distortion interaction as you just can't buff vigor on mirage while that exists. Then buff vigor, get rid of those silly mirrors and maybe have deceptions give endurance back. The ideal is that mirage should be running 2 deceptions in it's optimal builds but they're just not there yet.

It's not at odds with itself it's at odds with the other statement Katte made. They said you can't run away or chase down roamers. You can, as you are saying now, you just can't kill them.

And my concern is that once you reintroduce that lethality, they will take away our mobility. 

Even right now you are suggesting they strip the class of speed. Remove the trait interaction that gives us so many ambushes. But you arent proposing an alternative. 

People say things like make jaunt 3 and fix mirage ambush so it doesn't range check and you can use it as a pseudo blink. 

But it isn't going to be 20 sword ambushes, and they won't add  enough endurance to deception traits that will stop you being chased down by daredevils and willbenders.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Daniel Handler.4816

[apharma.3741]

13 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

It's not at odds with itself it's at odds with the other statement Katte made. They said you can't run away or chase down roamers. You can, as you are saying now, you just can't kill them.

And my concern is that once you reintroduce that lethality, they will take away our mobility. 

Even right now you are suggesting they strip the class of speed. Remove the trait interaction that gives us so many ambushes. But you arent proposing an alternative. 

People say things like make jaunt 3 and fix mirage ambush so it doesn't range check and you can use it as a pseudo blink. 

But it isn't going to be 20 sword ambushes, and they won't add  enough endurance to deception traits that will stop you being chased down by daredevils and willbenders.

"ANet needs to remove the blurred inscriptions/desert distortion interaction as you just can't buff vigor on mirage while that exists. Then buff vigor, get rid of those silly mirrors and maybe have deceptions give endurance back."
They need to remove the interaction so there isn't a 2 fold difference in ambush skill usage, you can't balance the ambushes and mirage when there is such a huge gap in potential. The removal of the interaction is to give a greater degree of control over mirage's offense and defence.
With 2 dodges and perma vigor you don't have the 3 in the bank daredevils have but you can get down to ~5s dodge recharge in WvW, you should be able to escape a lot of things with blink and double thrust which you're more likely to have with perma vigor. You only need to get ooc to mount up and you're gone.
PvP will be different but skill splitting the vigor uptime and endurance regen in mirage would help deal with anything that happens.
You're still slow outside of sword but that's not changing unless they make mirage advance better and give jaunt more charges etc.

[Axl.8924]

On 2/24/2023 at 5:20 PM, Mell.4873 said:

True but isn't that the same.

Come out of stealth and blow someone up. We do play these builds in Zergs to due to the Ranged.

I guess we are not one-shotting by this definition, if at the end of full rotation, we down someone I would say they were one shot. We are not downing people without them having some counter play, that would be unfair otherwise. My wife does not like being mean to other players so I'm sure she would hate it.

 

You gotta prepare though with a buncha buttons to make it work and its frail very frail and if you get the timing wrong you go splat, so it requires skill.

[katte nici.9483]

16 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

It's not at odds with itself it's at odds with the other statement Katte made. They said you can't run away or chase down roamers. You can, as you are saying now, you just can't kill them.

And my concern is that once you reintroduce that lethality, they will take away our mobility. 

Even right now you are suggesting they strip the class of speed. Remove the trait interaction that gives us so many ambushes. But you arent proposing an alternative. 

People say things like make jaunt 3 and fix mirage ambush so it doesn't range check and you can use it as a pseudo blink. 

But it isn't going to be 20 sword ambushes, and they won't add  enough endurance to deception traits that will stop you being chased down by daredevils and willbenders.

How about we get the same fighting power and mobility as they have? Is that really too much to ask for? Do we have to to kill a god first?

[Moradorin.6217]

On 2/24/2023 at 2:58 PM, Mell.4873 said:

Sorry i posted it on accident. 

Anyway I can stop derailing the topic and leave it at that. I never meant to entertain Veprovina  asking about the one shot build.

Hmm the support thing is interested since like I said the wider player base tend to agree with me and find alot of my suggestions very helpful. I mean playing Inspiration Virtuoso is very fun in PvE and people far prefer it to Mirage/Chronomancer when I show them the build.

Anyway I'll stop here, have fun with you second dodge thread, I hope you get it back. 

Wider player base lacks experience and solid understanding of various aspects of gameplay in wvw/pvp and end game. Suff like soloing boss level mobs and one shoting, for instance. I would expect them to generally be accepting of most advice. Even when its not the best or most complete. By definition.

I mean lets face it the average player is confused when people mention that Mirage still has one dodge in wvw/pvp. Therefore, either way your entire argument that your misleading information is helpful is well misleading too. You always tend to overstate how strong mesmer is while you take focus off the actual topic. (one dodge in wvw/pvp split-mode BS) You sit and gloss over what people say with speculations about gameplay stated as if you experienced it.

Seems very intentional to most of us. Feels very much like you spend more time in the mesmer forum than I do and all the time you try to undermine any message actual mesmer players would have to say with your misinformation.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Moradorin.6217]

17 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

It's not at odds with itself it's at odds with the other statement Katte made. They said you can't run away or chase down roamers. You can, as you are saying now, you just can't kill them.

And my concern is that once you reintroduce that lethality, they will take away our mobility. 

Even right now you are suggesting they strip the class of speed. Remove the trait interaction that gives us so many ambushes. But you arent proposing an alternative. 

People say things like make jaunt 3 and fix mirage ambush so it doesn't range check and you can use it as a pseudo blink. 

But it isn't going to be 20 sword ambushes, and they won't add  enough endurance to deception traits that will stop you being chased down by daredevils and willbenders.

Give me a break what in the world are you prattling on about now!

 

Can we please get back on topic. The topic of this thread is about Mirage and the fact that it still after 3 years has 2 dodges when played in pve and one dodge when played in wvw/pve. 

 

It was done by CMC as a hasty/quick-fix to balance Mirage after a long series of nerfs because they didnt want to try just tune ambushes to better scale per clone. That's the topic. Just to catch you up. We had other threads about this topic in the past. People always come and derail it like you seem to be trying to do.

 

It you like GW2 and want the Mesmer community to mellow out just support us in trying to get Mirage a consistent number of dodges in all 3 game modes. I really do not care if its one, two, or three dodges as long as its consistent like every other spec in the kittening game.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Veprovina.4876]

Yes, let's please get back to the topic and try to keep misinformation, and misdirection to a minimum, thank you! This is the 100th time someone has started an irrelevant topic in a what i can only assume as a malicious attempt to derail the discussion with how inflamatory the topic was - prompting others to call out the misinformation with proof in order to not damage the mesmer profession reputation further.

It's always an inescapable bait. Leave it be - the misinformation spreads. Call it out - we derail the topic from the point of 1 dodge that needs to become 2.

There are other threads where people can talk about Virtuoso, Chrono or other aspects - let's keep this topic to the Mirage dodge problem.

 

2 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

I really do not care if its one, two, or three dodges as long as its consistent like every other spec in the kittening game.

They would need to massivley buff us for 1 dodge to not feel like a jankfest, and since they kept 2 dodges in PvE, they KNOW it's the bare minimum for how the game's mechanics work. WvW and PvP is no different.

Imagine if you just had 1 dodge in raids or strikes, the AOE spam would kill you in seconds and you'd just be a liability. You'd probably have to slot jaut, blink and maybe Illusionary Ambush (which is random) just to get out danger, and while everyone else can use all their utility slots for damage, clense, whatever they need (also VERY true in WvW), Mirage has to use 2-3 slots just for mobility skills because it's impossible to dodge out of even a small AOE.

So you're left with your weapon skills and maybe 1 utility skill to use to down your opponent. And you hit like wet paper with full DPS gear...

 

So the smart thing to do was to give us only 1 dodge in modes where AOE spam is way more pronounced, especially group WvW fights.

 

I for one care that the dodges need to be 2 minimum across all modes. No gamemode was balanced around 1, and even the "uberdodge" from Vindicator was reworked to be 2 dodges which further proves my point.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Veprovina.4876

[Moradorin.6217]

2 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Yes, let's please get back to the topic and try to keep misinformation, and misdirection to a minimum, thank you! This is the 100th time someone has started an irrelevant topic in a what i can only assume as a malicious attempt to derail the discussion with how inflamatory the topic was - prompting others to call out the misinformation with proof in order to not damage the mesmer profession reputation further.

It's always an inescapable bait. Leave it be - the misinformation spreads. Call it out - we derail the topic from the point of 1 dodge that needs to become 2.

There are other threads where people can talk about Virtuoso, Chrono or other aspects - let's keep this topic to the Mirage dodge problem.

 

They would need to massivley buff us for 1 dodge to not feel like a jankfest, and since they kept 2 dodges in PvE, they KNOW it's the bare minimum for how the game's mechanics work. WvW and PvP is no different.

Imagine if you just had 1 dodge in raids or strikes, the AOE spam would kill you in seconds and you'd just be a liability. You'd probably have to slot jaut, blink and maybe Illusionary Ambush (which is random) just to get out danger, and while everyone else can use all their utility slots for damage, clense, whatever they need (also VERY true in WvW), Mirage has to use 2-3 slots just for mobility skills because it's impossible to dodge out of even a small AOE.

So you're left with your weapon skills and maybe 1 utility skill to use to down your opponent. And you hit like wet paper with full DPS gear...

 

So the smart thing to do was to give us only 1 dodge in modes where AOE spam is way more pronounced, especially group WvW fights.

 

I for one care that the dodges need to be 2 minimum across all modes. No gamemode was balanced around 1, and even the "uberdodge" from Vindicator was reworked to be 2 dodges which further proves my point.

With respect to how one dodge across the board would likely feel, agreed. I, personally, feel the best and simplest is to give Mirage 2 dodges in all game modes and balance like any other spec. That said, I feel like enough players and groups rely on Mirage in pve for various things like, for instance, alacMir and a simple li pve suggestion that even if the soution became to remove a dodge in pve from Mirage to match wvw/pvp it would get allot more attention and focus from the community of people suggesting it either needs more dodges or some serious buffs. 😉

 

At this point considering the direction they went with Vindicator and the fact that they teased Mirage getting its dodge back in the same stream they announced Vindicator was gaining a dodge in all 3 modes, it seems like the most logical move is to give Mirage a 2nd dodge back so its consistent across game modes with respect to how many dodges it has.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Infusion.7149]

7 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

With respect to how one dodge across the board would likely feel, agreed. I, personally, feel the best and simplest is to give Mirage 2 dodges in all game modes and balance like any other spec. That said, I feel like enough players and groups rely on Mirage in pve for various things like, for instance, alacMir and a simple li pve suggestion that even if the soution became to remove a dodge in pve from Mirage to match wvw/pvp it would get allot more attention and focus from the community of people suggesting it either needs more dodges or some serious buffs. 😉

 

At this point considering the direction they went with Vindicator and the fact that they teased Mirage getting its dodge back in the same stream they announced Vindicator was gaining a dodge in all 3 modes, it seems like the most logical move is to give Mirage a 2nd dodge back so its consistent across game modes with respect to how many dodges it has.

The entire game is balanced around two dodges. That is the main reason why three dodge daredevil feels overpowered when you have to dodge: one dodge is essentially free. Without the dodge then you have other classes that can evade or block (aegis) which is not much different in a PvE sense.

There are many ways mirage mirrors could be altered if they are deemed broken in some fashion, one way for example is having it refill endurance instead of triggering an ambush.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Veprovina.4876]

6 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

That said, I feel like enough players and groups rely on Mirage in pve for various things like, for instance, alacMir and a simple li pve suggestion that even if the soution became to remove a dodge in pve from Mirage to match wvw/pvp it would get allot more attention and focus from the community of people suggesting it either needs more dodges or some serious buffs. 😉

Oh, on that i agree, yes, it would get a LOT of attention suddenly - which is why Anet will never do it. They KNOW one dodge is awful, and unfair, they're not ignorant about that otherwise they would have never done the split between PvE and WvW.

 

1 minute ago, Infusion.7149 said:

There are many ways mirage mirrors could be altered if they are deemed broken in some fashion, one way for example is having it refill endurance instead of triggering an ambush.

A dodge would refill endurance instead of doing an ambush attack? What? 😃

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, Veprovina.4876 said:

Oh, on that i agree, yes, it would get a LOT of attention suddenly - which is why Anet will never do it. They KNOW one dodge is awful, and unfair, they're not ignorant about that otherwise they would have never done the split between PvE and WvW.

 

A dodge would refill endurance instead of doing an ambush attack? What? 😃

I meant the skills that make mirage mirrors.

[Veprovina.4876]

4 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I meant the skills that make mirage mirrors.

Ah, i see. Well yeah, that would have been preferable to one dodge though, you're then stuck with only deception skills to refill your endurance bar. But maybe if they moved the deception skills to F skills, and have them restore some endurance upon use, then made a new set of mirage utility skills - it might work.

But, I mean, even 1 dodge Vindi had ways of refilling endurance, and even that turned out to be janky enough for them to give them 2 dodges. So idk...

[Infusion.7149]

12 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Ah, i see. Well yeah, that would have been preferable to one dodge though, you're then stuck with only deception skills to refill your endurance bar. But maybe if they moved the deception skills to F skills, and have them restore some endurance upon use, then made a new set of mirage utility skills - it might work.

But, I mean, even 1 dodge Vindi had ways of refilling endurance, and even that turned out to be janky enough for them to give them 2 dodges. So idk...

To expand on the above: There is a difference between the mirage cloak (the dodge) and mirage mirrors (the diamond things made by deception skills). Having the skills provide endurance would mean that you can have added granularity: every mirror skill need not add dodge. Endurance has more flexibility than the current iteration of mirrors which tethers you to a point similar to how Continuum Split can be countered by destruction. Speaking of which, destructible mirrors (via CC maybe since the complaint is dodging while CC-ed) would be another option.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak_(effect)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Mirror

There is a single Mirage Cloak skill, Illusionary Ambush, which has 20s cooldown in PvE And 35s in WvW/PvP. Other skills are mirror generating skills such as Sand through Glass (essentially one dodge back due to the evade although with 30s cooldown), the False Oasis heal skill with 25s cooldown, and Crystal Sands (which has damage on it already and 20s cooldown).

Edited February 26, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Veprovina.4876]

@Infusion.7149

Yes, i know the difference. 🙂 I got what you meant the second time you explained, i'm just saying, using mirror generating skills to restore endurance with 1 mirage cloak would be practically mandatory.

So there's not much room left for other utility.

But by moving the deception skills to F skills instead of shatters (that mirage almost never wants to use), and making new utility, having one dodge (and endurance refilling skills on F buttons), would be doable.

 

IF they want to go the one dodge route, and of course, if it's the same in all modes.

[Infusion.7149]

14 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

@Infusion.7149

Yes, i know the difference. 🙂 I got what you meant the second time you explained, i'm just saying, using mirror generating skills to restore endurance with 1 mirage cloak would be practically mandatory.

So there's not much room left for other utility.

But by moving the deception skills to F skills instead of shatters (that mirage almost never wants to use), and making new utility, having one dodge (and endurance refilling skills on F buttons), would be doable.

 

IF they want to go the one dodge route, and of course, if it's the same in all modes.

Oh I meant 2 dodges but the mirage mirrors restore endurance. That way the dodges are still your dodges and not technically free unless endurance gain is a flat 50 (see the sigil of energy split which is 25% endurance in PVP or 25 endurance with two dodges). The way it is now Arenanet cannot split the effect of mirage mirrors since they cause mirage cloak, while endurance gain is more granular. Having mirrors restore endurance causes the mirror to lose some of its theme, while retaining the majority if not all of mirage cloak functionality as it is now. It would be more of a concern if mirage mirror skills did nothing on their own but that currently is not the case.

Of course 2 dodges with mirage mirrors being destroyed by hard CC (think small defiance bar) would also lower that so-called issue people have of mirages dodging while CC-ed.

The reason I did not say anything about shatters is because I did not want to completely eliminate a possibility of power mirage. You would still want to be able to access CC or distortion (reformed mirage mirrors from Desert Distortion) under some scenarios, even if the confusion shatter Cry of Frustration is typically unused.

[Moradorin.6217]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The entire game is balanced around two dodges. That is the main reason why three dodge daredevil feels overpowered when you have to dodge: one dodge is essentially free. Without the dodge then you have other classes that can evade or block (aegis) which is not much different in a PvE sense.

There are many ways mirage mirrors could be altered if they are deemed broken in some fashion, one way for example is having it refill endurance instead of triggering an ambush.

right I mean oddly on DD is sort of how u get good  dps too, at least w power. That is you take advantage of the dodge to maintain the boost and then use the evades + mobility on things like staff 5 if you have consumed the dodges to get the bonus and land bounding attacks. In some ways its very similar to mirage but with actual dodge + tons of evades and ways to get stealth. It just doesnt use clones per say. I have some friends that still make dd staff work in wvw to roam, etc. But I would say they are not as strong as they used to be either. They just have the advantage of not needing to deal with # of dodges that changes per mode like Mirage.

 

Again I think if it was consistent people could adapt easier to Mirage play. That is people who actually want to run around and play the spec would have more consistency. I think Mirrors would be a weak way to deal with refils due to how easy to predict the mesmer becomes. It would just dumb down gameplay. Again my focus is to get a consistent # of dodges,which at this point I think should be 2. I just want to be clear that the main thing to me its a consistent value and would all depend upon what else was done, if anything.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Waffles.5632]

6 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Imagine if you just had 1 dodge in raids or strikes, the AOE spam would kill you in seconds and you'd just be a liability. You'd probably have to slot jaut, blink and maybe Illusionary Ambush (which is random) just to get out danger, and while everyone else can use all their utility slots for damage, clense, whatever they need (also VERY true in WvW), Mirage has to use 2-3 slots just for mobility skills because it's impossible to dodge out of even a small AOE.

 

And here is me sweating profusely because I run jaunt/IA/Blink in pvp for exactly this reason, why you calling me out Veprovina!! 😂