Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!

[Veprovina.4876]

11 minutes ago, semak.7481 said:

You have to explain the most obvious things in detail or they wont understand them (makes you wonder if they were playing the game)... Like... once pet started to revive the ranger, 1 cc wont stop it from trying to revive ranger until it dies, and IF PET DIES... ranger again can use downed 3 (or just swap a pet if this allows him to kill you faster than revive himself) to make it permanently invulnerable while reviving him 

Just an anecdote on one of the reasons i stopped playing Mirage, and it does have to do with rangers...

 

Mirage's damage was so poor that the ranger managed to revive fully from downed state faster than i could do damage. I'm not sure how i was able to down him in the first place, but once i did, the only thing that was able to kill him was a stomp.

 

So i'll forgive myself for not being bummed about being able to avoid CC while stomping someone.

Anet, give us our second dodge back!

[semak.7481]

5 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

FYI this is exactly what Mel talks about btw.

"I'm specially opposing everyones views just to see if they can change my mind" somewhere along the lines aka trolling while playing the victim, then post vanishes like everyone who replied to it.

I have a wall-o-text intolerance in my blood, but your entire post is about "blabla safetstomp with mirage evade", even if they remove it, absolutely nothing happens, I'm so thin to go into a mass fight and stomp people manually to be killed mid stomp or right after, not the best investment if you ask me. (you can double dodge to cover 50% of the stomp animation, its all depends, revive signet, power res, so this argument is meh at best)

5 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

I didn't entertain it, I said it doesn't make sense to me as to why Anet never even attempted ANY one dodge changes. It has literally been one dodge mirage and then they never looked back, and the only mention of it ever since was when Vindi got 2 dodges.

They said long ago that they cant make changes without reworking it entirely and they cant be arsed to do so, but for vindi they didnt have to do that, slapped 1 more evade and adjusted the cost and its done

Edited February 28, 2023 by semak.7481

[Veprovina.4876]

Oh, and one more thing... On the topic of rangers.

That one skill where they fire arrows rapidly at you (1 button).

It takes a full commander's gear chrono (power, precision, TOUGHNESS, concentration) from 100% to almost downed.

A power skill that what, bypasses toughness? 1 button.

So stop rationalizing what happened to us, it was unfair, and continues to be, and mesmer would need a MASSIVE buff to every spec to come even close to what others have by default.

Let's start with getting that second dodge back and stop being convinced we don't deserve to be good because weak arguments.

 

Jesus christ, since this thread's start, let alone other threads, literally everything a mesmer can do, was at one point argued as "being OP", being the reason we don't deserve buffs or that it's the logic behind some backwards lazy nerf we recieved upon other nerfs.

What CAN we do well that's not considered OP huh?

Mindboggling the amount of either trolling or brainwashing done here...

[AshkyLicious.4729]

Ok... I dont really get this. People come in here complaining about us Mirage players being too biased and nasty in our comments towards you guys... Have you ever thought about how incredibly tiresome it is to play a gutted class in this game? To always be the weakest of the bunch. Especially when you PAID for that content aswell... your posts becomes nasty and vicious in our eyes as well! I think that many of us who plays Mirage today feels like with every post that you guys make defending CmCs actions for one dodge, or how OP we are when we're not, or defending what other non mesmers would think, just destroys the hope for us to ever get that dodge back again.

So excuse me for the sassy replies you get from the Mirage players. You should maybe start understanding us, since we're the ones who's been nerfed for years now, and nobody asked us  if it's ok to get our PAID for experience destroyed!

[semak.7481]

7 minutes ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

So excuse me for the sassy replies you get from the Mirage players. You should maybe start understanding us, since we're the ones who's been nerfed for years now, and nobody asked us  if it's ok to get our PAID for experience destroyed!

That crossed my mind as well, chrono was sold as a class with unique features, alacrity is being one of them. Later on, now everyone have alacrity but chrono is no longer being able to provide alacrity+quickness to contrary to being A TIME AND SPACE MAGE, then everyone got loads of these, so what is a chrono then?

Lemme remind you outragous change when you werent allowed to self-shatter and made chrono experience miserable. Its not what was sold and they totally ignored all kind of feedback because simply didnt care.

The same happened to mirage, they broke its legs in wvw/pvp and made playing it utterly miserable. 

May be I missing something but isnt there some unspoken rule/promise they wont be utterly destroying what you paid for a bit later on?

p.s EoD doesnt count, virtuoso was ugly since its release lol

[ascii.1369]

12 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

The only situation in which Mirage dodge is absolutely OP is when a downed opponent is in the mix. Being able to dodge twice as you're stomping/rezzing is extremely powerful. Remember old MC was 1sec evasion too, so 2secs of pseudo distortion.

Not sure if I‘m missing something here but I never understood why mirage can dodge and use other abilities at the same time anyway. Or why it can dodge while stunned. The only ability that should be usable while dodging is ambushes. But then again it was probably the easiest way to implement this behavior, to just make it an instant cast ability.

[Veprovina.4876]

1 minute ago, ascii.1369 said:

12 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

 

Not sure if I‘m missing something here but I never understood why mirage can dodge and use other abilities at the same time anyway. Or why it can dodge while stunned. The only ability that should be usable while dodging is ambushes. But then again it was probably the easiest way to implement this behavior, to just make it an instant cast ability.

You do know you can cast a mantra while doing other skills. Firebrands have those.

And that all mesmers have shatters that are instant cast and able to be used while casting other skills right?

Why are you singling out Mirage for this?

 

So what if it can dodge while stunned? It's a roaming duelist profession, that's about the only thing it CAN do, and even then, they already nerfed Mirage cloak from how it was originally intended.

 

We don't do enough damage, or have enough mobility/defense for them to also not allow mirage cloak through stuns or dazes.

That's the point of mirage cloak.

 

Counterpoint:

Not sure if i'm missing something here but i never understood whyranger can use 1 skill to instantly downed a full toughness build. Or why it can root people without them being able to clense the immob. The only ability a ranger should use to root people is a normal immob condition. But then again, it's probably a weak argument alltoghether, so i'm going to discontinue this bit, you get the point.

[ascii.1369]

7 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Why are you singling out Mirage for this?

I’m confused, why are you talking about insta cast abilities when I was talking about dodging? Insta casts are fine, what makes Mirage unique ist the fact that they can do whatever while dodging not just insta casts. That is what leads to the weired interaction with stomping.

Edited February 28, 2023 by ascii.1369

[Veprovina.4876]

4 minutes ago, ascii.1369 said:

I’m confused, why are you talking about insta cast abilities when I was talking about dodging? Insta casts are fine, what makes Mirage unique ist the fact that they can do whatever while dodging not just insta casts. That is what leads to the weired interaction with stomping.

Because you're presenting dodging as a problem in a one very specific area that is unique to only mirage.

Others can have special things only specific to them but mirage can't because it's a dodge?

I fail to see the argument why a dodge should be considered different.

It IS a different dodge after all.

If it were up to me, Vindi dodge would be able to jump over obstacles and also dodge while immobd, it's a unique mechanic after all, and different than a normal dodge - it should have advantages!

[Tseison.4659]

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

I mean, why are we even debating and justifying one dodge based on how fast or easy you can stomp somebody, that's not a good reason (nor it WAS the reason) to remove it or not return it, and it's certainly not CMC's logic behind keeping the second dodge from us.

 

If we're reaching so far as to justify or rationalize this that the argument is "you can stomp someone without much consequence" well, good, at least we're good at something...

 

While everyone else is very good at everything, mirage can stomp someone, wow, such reason and logic behind CMC's balancing, give me a break...

Agreed and I’m asking the same question too because as others have mentioned and I’ve been in WvW for awhile to know that there’s other professions who can stomp while immune 🤷‍♀️ at the end of the day, if you’re downed, your as good as dead and aren’t getting up unless you know, the enemy player happens to get run over by a boon ball and they end up saving them.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Tseison.4659

[ascii.1369]

1 minute ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Because you're presenting dodging as a problem in a one very specific area that is unique to only mirage.

Others can have special things only specific to them but mirage can't because it's a dodge?

I fail to see the argument why a dodge should be considered different.

It IS a different dodge after all.

If it were up to me, Vindi dodge would be able to jump over obstacles and also dodge while immobd, it's a unique mechanic after all, and different than a normal dodge - it should have advantages!

Relax, I’m a mirage player myself and having unique things is also fine. It just seems to me that Mirage dodge already does a lot of stuff and pretty much everything that might make it op for no good reason is the fact that it behaves like an insta cast.

[semak.7481]

9 minutes ago, ascii.1369 said:

Not sure if I‘m missing something here but I never understood why mirage can dodge and use other abilities at the same time anyway. Or why it can dodge while stunned. The only ability that should be usable while dodging is ambushes. But then again it was probably the easiest way to implement this behavior, to just make it an instant cast ability.

Mirage evade is nothing stellar without it, just a core mesmer with an access to a different auto-attack after evade.

Then all you get is downgraded evade, you move with a speed of a slug and our side/backwards movement as fast as crawling with both legs broken. 

Plus it would be clunky for the player who plays mirage, when I'm even allowed to use my own skills with mirage cloak around?

So, what is mirage identity would be? Extra auto-attack after evade makes it "mirage" ? kek

[Veprovina.4876]

15 minutes ago, ascii.1369 said:

Relax, I’m a mirage player myself and having unique things is also fine. It just seems to me that Mirage dodge already does a lot of stuff and pretty much everything that might make it op for no good reason is the fact that it behaves like an insta cast.

All dodges are insta casts for gods sake, you don't get a cast time period before dodging, mirage cloak just trades directional mobility for being able to evade while ccd and cast an ambush.

 

It's called a profession mechanic!

And it was nerfed already before removing the dodge, also for no good reason.

 

Insta cast... Not few posts ago i told that everything a mirage can do was already used to point it as OP, but even i couldn't have predicted an "insta cast" argument...

 

Were scraping the bottom of the barrel here it seems.

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Just an anecdote on one of the reasons i stopped playing Mirage, and it does have to do with rangers...

 

Mirage's damage was so poor that the ranger managed to revive fully from downed state faster than i could do damage. I'm not sure how i was able to down him in the first place, but once i did, the only thing that was able to kill him was a stomp.

 

So i'll forgive myself for not being bummed about being able to avoid CC while stomping someone.

Anet, give us our second dodge back!

Damage is poor.... you really don't play Mirage then since its damage is really high it just can't survive, that's it's problem. 

They probably will lower it's damage if the second dodge is returned, that will be the trade off. They already mentioned some balancing if they bring the second dodge back. 

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Oh, and one more thing... On the topic of rangers.

That one skill where they fire arrows rapidly at you (1 button).

It takes a full commander's gear chrono (power, precision, TOUGHNESS, concentration) from 100% to almost downed.

A power skill that what, bypasses toughness? 1 button.

So stop rationalizing what happened to us, it was unfair, and continues to be, and mesmer would need a MASSIVE buff to every spec to come even close to what others have by default.

Let's start with getting that second dodge back and stop being convinced we don't deserve to be good because weak arguments.

 

Jesus christ, since this thread's start, let alone other threads, literally everything a mesmer can do, was at one point argued as "being OP", being the reason we don't deserve buffs or that it's the logic behind some backwards lazy nerf we recieved upon other nerfs.

What CAN we do well that's not considered OP huh?

Mindboggling the amount of either trolling or brainwashing done here...

Just dodge? Feedback has a very low cooldown too. 

[apharma.3741]

It's not just CMC's logic, it was one of the primary complaints from many top PvP players when mirage came out including many of the best mesmers in the game from EU. You made a mistake and got stunned? You can just dodge the damage. You got immobilised? Just dodge the follow up and bonus you cleanse the immobilise because everyone ran elusive mind. Essentially it was a bad safety net for players and it broke the contract of fair play where hitting you with a hard to hit skill that should leave you vulnerable denied the follow up. Additionally you could avoid damage or CC that might interrupt a channel on temple, interrupt a rez or a stomp. I see people are only considering 1v1 but often a mirage can burn a dodge or two to secure the stomp and there was nothing anyone could do to stop it.
This isn't a commentary on the strength of the class, it's on the mechanic of mirage cloak and how it circumvents a lot of rules in the game.

There is no other class that can do this on top of their usual ability to safe stomp, rez, channel etc. Maybe mirage should be redesigned from the ground up, maybe even the whole mesmer class and elite specs at this point. Though given how Virtuoso turned out I don't have much hope.

[Waffles.5632]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

It's not just CMC's logic, it was one of the primary complaints from many top PvP players when mirage came out including many of the best mesmers in the game from EU. You made a mistake and got stunned? You can just dodge the damage. You got immobilised? Just dodge the follow up and bonus you cleanse the immobilise because everyone ran elusive mind. Essentially it was a bad safety net for players and it broke the contract of fair play where hitting you with a hard to hit skill that should leave you vulnerable denied the follow up. Additionally you could avoid damage or CC that might interrupt a channel on temple, interrupt a rez or a stomp. I see people are only considering 1v1 but often a mirage can burn a dodge or two to secure the stomp and there was nothing anyone could do to stop it.
This isn't a commentary on the strength of the class, it's on the mechanic of mirage cloak and how it circumvents a lot of rules in the game.

There is no other class that can do this on top of their usual ability to safe stomp, rez, channel etc. Maybe mirage should be redesigned from the ground up, maybe even the whole mesmer class and elite specs at this point. Though given how Virtuoso turned out I don't have much hope.

This is the only reasonable and correct post in the last few pages.

You guys forget after PoF launch Mirage BOTS were climbing into g2/g3 pvp matches and that is solely a testament to how strong the mechanics of Mirage Cloak are.

It is still the most powerful dodge in the game, and if you ask ANY other class what would be the strongest mechanic to add, it would always be MC. Imagine a Ranger with MC. etc. Yeah.

I was going to respond more, but it's all just so wrong and mixed with personal insults, while apharma said it best already.

 

Lastly @semak.7481 if you hate reading my long posts then just block me like you always do.

I know at least half of you will take this to mean that I want one dodge, but realize that is not what I've said, but your own personal feelings coming through. The fact that even talking about the areas where MC is ridiculously strong brings up this reaction is all the proof I need that Mesmer forums are still as jaded as ever.

This will be the last post I make in this thread. You all have lost another Mesmer because you can't see how jaded you've become. No wonder devs haven't commented here, and they never will with this kind of behavior.  I expect a full confused emoji salute for my departure. ✌️

 

[apharma.3741]

1 hour ago, semak.7481 said:

Sure, that will stop the troll! 

Why wont you just ignore the troll? You dont have to reply to this most obvious troll in the universe (generic lame troll response "just dodge"), he doesnt even know his own "main" class even a tiny bit (which is called unblockables and where to get it), makes up things and think as if that adds credibility.

@apharma.3741Or someone decided better to buff and add extra in berserk rather than fixing promised mirage evade? In theory they remove the ability to stomp/res/evade in stun(I think they changed it in a way you cant channel buff with it anymore). Would they REVERT all nerfs they have made for the sake of bringing MC down? Especially on core, the most interesting would be vigor in dueling and mirror trait and CHAOS INTERRUPTION as before condi mirage with CONDI DURATION amulet it wasnt a thing, ever.

I think you said it yourself, the ideal solution that ANet knew was to rework mirage cloak but they didn't really have the time to assign to it as it meant a rework of the entire spec.
I've always asked for those traits to be brought back to where they were, in fact one of the first posts in this thread said that I don't want mirage 2nd dodge to be a justification for keeping those core traits nerfed as it affects all mesmer builds. 
I think we both know the chances of mirage getting the time it really needs though.

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hi everyone,

I'm reopening this thread after having removed several posts.
Please be aware that we welcome constructive feedback, and we know players are passionate about the game, but personal insults, accusations, and other disrespectful comments are not allowed.

Regards

[Moradorin.6217]

7 hours ago, ascii.1369 said:

Not sure if I‘m missing something here but I never understood why mirage can dodge and use other abilities at the same time anyway. Or why it can dodge while stunned. The only ability that should be usable while dodging is ambushes. But then again it was probably the easiest way to implement this behavior, to just make it an instant cast ability.

its just the nature of instant cast skills. That is on any class I can push and mix up timing with skills that are instant. It just happens that because Mirage isnt stuck in an animation during the dodge that it can trigger stuff in that time frame. Its part of Mirage's design from the start. I think when you look at the limited functionality of Mirage skills (deception) they all sort of reflect an awareness and are limited due to this factor. Its just spec flavor. In the end it changes little. Its just a class that can trigger its dodge without the animation. Some times its helpful because you can do another action or stay close to a target. Other times it can get you killed cause you cannot just role out of the deadly AE ring with a dodge like every other spec. I see it as a simple difference with various trade-offs built in. It also gives Mirage the flavor that makes its appealing. Without these things Mirage would be, well, core Mesmer with cheesy mirrors.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Moradorin.6217]

5 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

It's not just CMC's logic, it was one of the primary complaints from many top PvP players when mirage came out including many of the best mesmers in the game from EU. You made a mistake and got stunned? You can just dodge the damage. You got immobilised? Just dodge the follow up and bonus you cleanse the immobilise because everyone ran elusive mind. Essentially it was a bad safety net for players and it broke the contract of fair play where hitting you with a hard to hit skill that should leave you vulnerable denied the follow up. Additionally you could avoid damage or CC that might interrupt a channel on temple, interrupt a rez or a stomp. I see people are only considering 1v1 but often a mirage can burn a dodge or two to secure the stomp and there was nothing anyone could do to stop it.
This isn't a commentary on the strength of the class, it's on the mechanic of mirage cloak and how it circumvents a lot of rules in the game.

There is no other class that can do this on top of their usual ability to safe stomp, rez, channel etc. Maybe mirage should be redesigned from the ground up, maybe even the whole mesmer class and elite specs at this point. Though given how Virtuoso turned out I don't have much hope.

Make sure any keep it in context. When people used EM over IH it was a stun break on dodge that also removed 2 condi. Meanwhile, the mirage would also ambush attack at the same time. Also we still super speed and higher energy regen at that time. So a skilled player would chain blocks, evades, stealth and dodges depending if you needed a break and cleanse or just an evade frame. I loved playing power at that time and yeah it was overtuned, but that was also when scourge could shutdown a cap with shades, when spb could be very nearly unkillable unless you could afford to just stop attacking them half the time lol. Soulbeast had pet swaps and allot more sustain. etc, etc. WHat I mean is, when in context Mirage was just one of many very strong specs. Heck at the time Core guardian was one of the best pvp options tbh. Back then core guard could have 100% crit with all valk gear and use fire + power burst to just cleave whole groups. It was hilarious fun too. That was all well over 4 years ago tho. The past is the past. We are here in the present and Mirage just needs its dodge back.

[Mell.4873]

8 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

This is the only reasonable and correct post in the last few pages.

You guys forget after PoF launch Mirage BOTS were climbing into g2/g3 pvp matches and that is solely a testament to how strong the mechanics of Mirage Cloak are.

It is still the most powerful dodge in the game, and if you ask ANY other class what would be the strongest mechanic to add, it would always be MC. Imagine a Ranger with MC. etc. Yeah.

I was going to respond more, but it's all just so wrong and mixed with personal insults, while apharma said it best already.

 

Lastly @semak.7481 if you hate reading my long posts then just block me like you always do.

I know at least half of you will take this to mean that I want one dodge, but realize that is not what I've said, but your own personal feelings coming through. The fact that even talking about the areas where MC is ridiculously strong brings up this reaction is all the proof I need that Mesmer forums are still as jaded as ever.

This will be the last post I make in this thread. You all have lost another Mesmer because you can't see how jaded you've become. No wonder devs haven't commented here, and they never will with this kind of behavior.  I expect a full confused emoji salute for my departure. ✌️

 

Thanks Waffles for your contribution, I will stick around a while longer but I might avoid posting anything on the Mesmer forum(due to 8+ confused emotes). I might just respond to a few posts we shall see. 

I wish we were all not so negative, like I have said the large majority of players don't care. Either they think the nerfs are justified or play Mesmer oblivious to it's past state. 

[apharma.3741]

16 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Make sure any keep it in context. When people used EM over IH it was a stun break on dodge that also removed 2 condi. Meanwhile, the mirage would also ambush attack at the same time. Also we still super speed and higher energy regen at that time. So a skilled player would chain blocks, evades, stealth and dodges depending if you needed a break and cleanse or just an evade frame. I loved playing power at that time and yeah it was overtuned, but that was also when scourge could shutdown a cap with shades, when spb could be very nearly unkillable unless you could afford to just stop attacking them half the time lol. Soulbeast had pet swaps and allot more sustain. etc, etc. WHat I mean is, when in context Mirage was just one of many very strong specs. Heck at the time Core guardian was one of the best pvp options tbh. Back then core guard could have 100% crit with all valk gear and use fire + power burst to just cleave whole groups. It was hilarious fun too. That was all well over 4 years ago tho. The past is the past. We are here in the present and Mirage just needs its dodge back.

Context was kept, when you ran IH you could still evade while stunned and immobilised, you still can. When people ran EM over IH it was for the stunbreak and condition clear but it only cleansed 1 condition at that time, enough for removing immob though. Once the stunbreak was removed you still ran EM for the condition clear and you still do.
Yeah everything was overtuned back then, however mirage was certainly "low intensity" as they say on hardstuck for PvP, it wasn't as horribly overtuned as people said till the CI and CC spam came but as you say, past is the past.
Everything I said about dodging while stunned, while immobilised and while rezzing/stomping/other is still here, today. I agree mirage needs it's 2nd dodge but you can't deny how strong mirage cloak is. I fear until it is changed mechanically, which necessitates a full spec rework according to ANet, mirage may not get it's 2nd dodge back.

[Kulvar.1239]

What I want

• Style
  • Virtuoso blades are invisible (or half their current opacity) when your weapons are sheathed in PvE and WvW.
• QoL
  • When a Virtuoso activate a Mistlock Singularity, they restock 5 blades.
• Balance
  • Traits:
    • All's Well That Ends Well: also increase Outgoing Healing by 10%.
    • Mirage Cloak: no longer decrease Endurance by 50 in WvW and PvP.
    • Infinite Forge: blade stocking interval lowered from 3s to 2s.
  • Skills:
    • Mantras: charge time lowered from 2¼ to 1¾.
    • Blink: cooldown lowered from 35s to 28s in all game modes.
    • Arcane Thievery: cooldown lowered from 25s to 20s in PvE.
    • Signet of Humility: cooldown lowered from 120s to 60s in PvE.
    • Time Warp: cooldown lowered from 120s to 90s in PvE.
• Underwater
  • Siren's Call (Trident #1) bleeding base duration increased from 1s to 3s.
  • Chronomancer wells working underwater.
    • Well of Eternity: cast on self.
    • Well of Precognition: cast on self.
    • Well of Action: cast on target.
    • Well of Senility: cast on target.
    • Well of Calamity: cast on target.
    • Well of Gravity: cast on target.
  • Mirage deceptions working underwater.
    • False Oasis: cast on self.
    • Crystal Sands: cast on target.
    • Jaunt: shadowstep to target.
  • Virtuoso psionics working underwater.
    • Sword of Decimation: cast on target.
    • Thousand Cuts: cast toward target.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Kulvar.1239

[phokus.8934]

They nerfed core mesmer by nerfing Vigor output and then nerf Mirage to one dodge but never undid the vigor changes.  I can't speak for other classes (other than Rev), but core Mesmer traits need a serious look.