Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!

[Waffles.5632]

They have killed Mirage. Ty Anet it's been fun!

The whole identity of the class is ruined for me. There were plenty of ways to balance and once again, as expected, Anet chose the laziest most destructive way possible IMO.

I had a feeling these would be my last Mirage days, so glad I did some pvp recently as the journey is over. GG! It's been great but a good pvper knows when to make their exit lol!

 

 

 

[Curunen.8729]

I just thought - what if crowd control also includes Daze? Edit - on reflection I also recall this coming up in discussion some years back.

This would be so bad because you can normal dodge when dazed.

Hopefully it is only fear/taunt/immob and hard cc like stun/knockdown etc.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Curunen.8729

[Leonidrex.5649]

22 hours ago, Gesbo.6420 said:

Ye boys we finally got the dodge but the change still feels kitten as it could have been a change that could have come 3 years ago... right now after 3 years it feels like yet another lazy change... 

ye we got our dodge along with 15 different nerfs, pog pog pog

[Gesbo.6420]

21 hours ago, Curunen.8729 said:

I just thought - what if crowd control also includes Daze? Edit - on reflection I also recall this coming up in discussion some years back.

This would be so bad because you can normal dodge when dazed.

Hopefully it is only fear/taunt/immob and hard cc like stun/knockdown etc.

I don't think that will be the case, I believe you won't be able to dodge on hard cc like knock down float stun and snares... but you are pointing out a pretty serious issue with how they are releasing their notes with vagueness and always using the wrong type of wording. When they implemented the temporal enchanter back inti the game it could have been taken as all your glamours constantly stack up resistance in their zones. I thought that sounded like a seriously interesting idea but no turns out it will be just a random proc of 2 sec resistance... 

 

I'm getting a massive get bend attitude with how lazy writing is lately and it's pissig me off especially with the way they presented the changes for mirage. Like "hahahahhahah we have nothing else hahahaha we absolutely haven't forgotten the class that has been in the gutter for 3 years hahahahahhaha it's actually a middle ground between actual rework and previous state and it took us 3 years to figure this out. Hahahah we didn't implement it with our revenant experiment for single dodges cuz woosie and we don't have the desire to create an actual excitement for this spec.... also everything is halved yet again... hahahhahaha"

Not cool...

Edited June 11, 2023 by Gesbo.6420

[Leonidrex.5649]

Here you go folks.
Vindicator gets sec dodge along with these changes.
 

• Sigils that trigger when swapping weapons will now trigger when swapping legends ( buff )
• Demonic Defiance: Increased resistance duration from 1 second to 2 seconds in PvP only. ( buff )
• Fiendish Tenacity: Increased resistance duration from 1 second to 2 seconds in PvP only. Increased base healing from 132 to 165 in PvP and WvW. ( buff )
• Spirit Boon: Increased resistance duration when invoking Mallyx from 1 second to 2 seconds in PvP only. ( buff )
• Echoing Eruption: Increased ammunition from 1 to 2 in PvP and WvW. ( buff )
• Pain Absorption: Reduced energy cost from 35 to 30 in PvP only. ( buff )
• Call to Anguish: Reduced energy cost from 35 to 30 in PvP only.  ( buff )
   
• Vindicator no longer consumes all endurance to dodge. Reduced endurance cost of dodging from 100 to 50. Reduced dodge evade window from 1.6 seconds to 0.8 seconds. ( buff )
• Energy Meld: Reduced endurance granted from 50 to 25. ( nerf)

• Traits

• Awakening: This skill now activates instantly. Reduced energy cost from 35 to 30 in WvW only. Increased range from 360 to 600. ( buff )
  Meanwhile mesmer to get secound dodge gets 15 different NERFS, despite 1 dodge vindicator being STRONGER then 1dodge mirage from the start. 
  Spoiler

  🤡M🤡 Certified classic. Rev players are better, and better players win.

   

   

[soul.9651]

10 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Here you go folks.
Vindicator gets sec dodge along with these changes.
 

• Sigils that trigger when swapping weapons will now trigger when swapping legends ( buff )
• Demonic Defiance: Increased resistance duration from 1 second to 2 seconds in PvP only. ( buff )
• Fiendish Tenacity: Increased resistance duration from 1 second to 2 seconds in PvP only. Increased base healing from 132 to 165 in PvP and WvW. ( buff )
• Spirit Boon: Increased resistance duration when invoking Mallyx from 1 second to 2 seconds in PvP only. ( buff )
• Echoing Eruption: Increased ammunition from 1 to 2 in PvP and WvW. ( buff )
• Pain Absorption: Reduced energy cost from 35 to 30 in PvP only. ( buff )
• Call to Anguish: Reduced energy cost from 35 to 30 in PvP only.  ( buff )
   
• Vindicator no longer consumes all endurance to dodge. Reduced endurance cost of dodging from 100 to 50. Reduced dodge evade window from 1.6 seconds to 0.8 seconds. ( buff )
• Energy Meld: Reduced endurance granted from 50 to 25. ( nerf)

• Traits

• Awakening: This skill now activates instantly. Reduced energy cost from 35 to 30 in WvW only. Increased range from 360 to 600. ( buff )
  Meanwhile mesmer to get secound dodge gets 15 different NERFS, despite 1 dodge vindicator being STRONGER then 1dodge mirage from the start. 
    Reveal hidden contents

  🤡M🤡 Certified classic. Rev players are better, and better players win.

   

   

Meanwhile you forget to mention the following nerfs vindicator gets with each balance patch, so is there any difference to get an instant 15 nerfs in the same patch or 15 nerfs in the every single future balance patch?

[Curunen.8729]

38 minutes ago, Gesbo.6420 said:

I don't think that will be the case, I believe you won't be able to dodge on hard cc like knock down float stun and snares... but you are pointing out a pretty serious issue with how they are releasing their notes with vagueness and always using the wrong type of wording. When they implemented the temporal enchanter back inti the game it could have been taken as all your glamours constantly stack up resistance in their zones. I thought that sounded like a seriously interesting idea but no turns out it will be just a random proc of 2 sec resistance... 

 

I'm getting a massive get bend attitude with how lazy writing is lately and it's pissig me off especially with the way they presented the changes for mirage. Like "hahahahhahah we have nothing else hahahaha we absolutely haven't forgotten the class that has been in the gutter for 3 years hahahahahhaha it's actually a middle ground between actual rework and previous state and it took us 3 years to figure this out. Hahahah we didn't implement it with our revenant experiment for single dodges cuz woosie and we don't have the desire to create an actual excitement for this spec.... also everything is halved yet again... hahahhahaha"

Not cool...

Yeah I hope it is not the case, but given the usual process with mesmer I'm half anticipating it to not function with daze - then wait for the community to go wtf when they can't dodge during the high number of daze sources in the game which will kill mirage in every mode, before finally relenting.

Anet please if you're reading this I hope by "crowd control" you mean only all the things that prevent a normal dodge

[Gesbo.6420]

1 hour ago, Curunen.8729 said:

Yeah I hope it is not the case, but given the usual process with mesmer I'm half anticipating it to not function with daze - then wait for the community to go wtf when they can't dodge during the high number of daze sources in the game which will kill mirage in every mode, before finally relenting.

Anet please if you're reading this I hope by "crowd control" you mean only all the things that prevent a normal dodge

dw they will fix it in 3 years if thats the case...

[doozer.7063]

5 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

Meanwhile you forget to mention the following nerfs vindicator gets with each balance patch, so is there any difference to get an instant 15 nerfs in the same patch or 15 nerfs in the every single future balance patch?

You right, no bias to see here. They touch a class that is designed around one dodge not just way more carefully with nerfs but even buff them, while they double nerf (before they removed the dodge and now when giving it back and ofc also several times inbetween) a class that lost the dodge as a low effort fix that didnt even solve any problem of the spec.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Every mesmer player on mirage beta - dodging while stunned should go.
After 6 years of constant nerfs to compensate mirage allowed to dodge while stunned - we feel mirage shouldn't dodge while cc'ed.

Now if only you were clever enough to listen to mesmer players instead of the discord idiots and the "knowledgeable community"...
 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Leonidrex.5649]

12 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

Meanwhile you forget to mention the following nerfs vindicator gets with each balance patch, so is there any difference to get an instant 15 nerfs in the same patch or 15 nerfs in the every single future balance patch?

there is a massive difference in fact.
If devs balance philosophy for Revenant is to make changes that are gigabroken then slowly nerf to " balanced " state. but for mesmer is to nerf to kitten and back and then " hope " it gets buffed there IS a massive issue.
I dont know if you are new or something but when devs remove kitten from a mesmer we have to wait between 1 year and never to get them back.
Your argument makes sense if you assume anet balance team isnt 🤡. then yes I would agree, but they wont balance mirage, and even if hell freezes over and they somehow do, it will take another 3 years.

EDIT
tldr
functional change for rev, kitten it leave it OP we will balance it later.
functional change for mesmer, make sure to nerf it 15 times in case its usable.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Leonidrex.5649

[Skyroar.2974]

Ambush skills weren't even nerfed to half to make up for twice as many dodges in pvp/wvw. Dodging twice will not only give you twice as many evasion frames; it will also give you two ambush skills that, taken together, will deal more damage than the single ambush you had access to before.

Chaos Vortex only got 2 out of its 3 conditions halved, and only for clones. So that's a net buff.

Mirage Axe only got clone damage halved. Net buff.

Split Surge only got might halved, and only for pvp (not for wvw). Huge buff.

Remaining ambush skills weren't even touched. With twice as many dodges, that means they are twice as powerful. Huge buff.

So that's the result of your "we got 15 nerfs to get a second dodge back!!!" Mirage will deal MORE damage overall in pvp/wvw (in addition to the second evade frame at the cost of cc immunity), and power mirage, specifically, will come back with a bang. It would be a safe bet at this point to assume that it may even be further nerfed in a future patch.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Skyroar.2974

[phokus.8934]

29 minutes ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

Ambush skills weren't even nerfed to half to make up for twice as many dodges in pvp/wvw. Dodging twice will not only give you twice as many evasion frames; it will also give you two ambush skills that, taken together, will deal more damage than the single ambush you had access to before.

Chaos Vortex only got 2 out of its 3 conditions halved, and only for clones. So that's a net buff.

Mirage Axe only got clone damage halved. Net buff.

Split Surge only got might halved, and only for pvp (not for wvw). Huge buff.

Remaining ambush skills weren't even touched. With twice as many dodges, that means they are twice as powerful. Huge buff.

So that's the result of your "we got 15 nerfs to get a second dodge back!!!" Mirage will deal MORE damage overall in pvp/wvw (in addition to the second evade frame at the cost of cc immunity), and power mirage, specifically, will come back with a bang. It would be a safe bet at this point to assume that it may even be further nerfed in a future patch.

• Chaos Vortex: Reduced clone bleeding and torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds.
• Imaginary Axes: Reduced clone torment duration from 4 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP and WvW.

You clearly don't know what the term 'buff' means in this context.

[ascii.1369]

33 minutes ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

Chaos Vortex only got 2 out of its 3 conditions halved, and only for clones. So that's a net buff.

Mirage Axe only got clone damage halved. Net buff.

You do know that the number of dodges hasn't actually doubled. We start with 1 more dodge but endurence regen is still the same. We do have slightly more dodges because endurence doesn't overflow as much but I would put it more in the range of 30%-50% not double.

Edited June 12, 2023 by ascii.1369

[semak.7481]

1 hour ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

Ambush skills weren't even nerfed to half to make up for twice as many dodges in pvp/wvw. Dodging twice will not only give you twice as many evasion frames; it will also give you two ambush skills that, taken together, will deal more damage than the single ambush you had access to before.

Mirage didnt get 100% bonus to passive endurance regeneration. Just in case if you dont know

35 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

• Chaos Vortex: Reduced clone bleeding and torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds.
• Imaginary Axes: Reduced clone torment duration from 4 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP and WvW.

You clearly don't know what the term 'buff' means in this context.

Thinking isnt his strong side

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, semak.7481 said:

Mirage didnt get 100% bonus to passive endurance regeneration. Just in case if you dont know

Thinking isnt his strong side

He's the kind of people ANerf actually listens to.
No wonder this game balance was thrown out of the window since Jon Peters left

[Skyroar.2974]

3 hours ago, ascii.1369 said:

You do know that the number of dodges hasn't actually doubled. We start with 1 more dodge but endurence regen is still the same. We do have slightly more dodges because endurence doesn't overflow as much but I would put it more in the range of 30%-50% not double.

Even assuming the worst care scenario where a condi build stays somewhat comparable power-wise, power mirage builds have still been buffed significantly. Being able to daze-chain your opponent with MH sword twice should not to be underestimated.

16 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

He's the kind of people ANerf actually listens to.
No wonder this game balance was thrown out of the window since Jon Peters left

Ironically, a lot of my suggestions were listened to during Jon Peters time, at the old forums, when he and J. Sharp used to communicate with us quite often.

Balance was thrown out of the windows with the power creep that came from the last trait system iteration + elite specs. The first wave of elite specs which happened while... J. Peters was still at Anet.

3 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

• Chaos Vortex: Reduced clone bleeding and torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds.
• Imaginary Axes: Reduced clone torment duration from 4 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP and WvW.

You clearly don't know what the term 'buff' means in this context.

Define "this context". The "I'm going to ignore the indirect power up from having a second dodge and pretend those number changes only exist in a vacuum" context?

Edited June 12, 2023 by Skyroar.2974

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 6/12/2023 at 6:40 PM, Skyroar.2974 said:

Ambush skills weren't even nerfed to half to make up for twice as many dodges in pvp/wvw. Dodging twice will not only give you twice as many evasion frames; it will also give you two ambush skills that, taken together, will deal more damage than the single ambush you had access to before.

Chaos Vortex only got 2 out of its 3 conditions halved, and only for clones. So that's a net buff.

Mirage Axe only got clone damage halved. Net buff.

Split Surge only got might halved, and only for pvp (not for wvw). Huge buff.

Remaining ambush skills weren't even touched. With twice as many dodges, that means they are twice as powerful. Huge buff.

So that's the result of your "we got 15 nerfs to get a second dodge back!!!" Mirage will deal MORE damage overall in pvp/wvw (in addition to the second evade frame at the cost of cc immunity), and power mirage, specifically, will come back with a bang. It would be a safe bet at this point to assume that it may even be further nerfed in a future patch.

whats funny is that back when condi mirage was usable, they nerfed staff ambush by 50%.
then they removed CI, removed all the good condi amulets, now they nerf staff ambush dmg by almost 50% on top of vigor nerfs.
Just a friendly reminder, that back when condi staff IH was viable, it had more or less 5x the damage it will do now, so saying its a net buff is kinda funny.

EDIT.
for future readers to put it into perspective.
Before february patch, chaos IH condi mirage with staff and 3 clones, did 16k condi damage if memory serves right, in theory you could kill someone by pressing spacebar, once. In practice half of them miss, so it goes to 8k, rest gets cleansed and it did 2k dmg which was reasonable.
Now the damage will be in 5k ballpark, half will miss dropping it to 3k, rest will get cleansed and you can reasonably expect full 4x IH to deal 1k-2k dmg.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Leonidrex.5649

[phokus.8934]

1 hour ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

Even assuming the worst care scenario where a condi build stays somewhat comparable power-wise, power mirage builds have still been buffed significantly. Being able to daze-chain your opponent with MH sword twice should not to be underestimated.

Ironically, a lot of my suggestions were listened to during Jon Peters time, at the old forums, when he and J. Sharp used to communicate with us quite often.

Balance was thrown out of the windows with the power creep that came from the last trait system iteration + elite specs. The first wave of elite specs which happened while... J. Peters was still at Anet.

Define "this context". The "I'm going to ignore the indirect power up from having a second dodge and pretend those number changes only exist in a vacuum" context?

Explain to everyone how chaos vortex being halved in condi duration is a buff.

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

Even assuming the worst care scenario where a condi build stays somewhat comparable power-wise, power mirage builds have still been buffed significantly. Being able to daze-chain your opponent with MH sword twice should not to be underestimated.

Ironically, a lot of my suggestions were listened to during Jon Peters time, at the old forums, when he and J. Sharp used to communicate with us quite often.

Balance was thrown out of the windows with the power creep that came from the last trait system iteration + elite specs. The first wave of elite specs which happened while... J. Peters was still at Anet.

Define "this context". The "I'm going to ignore the indirect power up from having a second dodge and pretend those number changes only exist in a vacuum" context?

bro sword daze lasts 0.25s, and has 50% chance to not hit for no reason. if anything it SHOULD be underestimated as its legit the WORST CC in the entire game bar none, its so kittening bad its only use is to rupt skills, but guess what, if you use it like this 50% of the time it fails to work and you get screwed over. On top of it, its a daze, so any time your teammate stuns the target before you daze them, your kitten kitten sword ambush just removed the stun with a kitten 0.25s daze 😄

[dead.7638]

Lol did he try to troll a thread that’s been going on for at least a year?   Like we have no clue how our own class works and how it actually works off paper, which is dog kitten.   Mesmer deals with so many inconsistency from nerfed skills that work half the time.   kitten outta here, bruh.

[Veprovina.4876]

Every time mesmer gets a nerf there's some kitten coming here either:

• gloating
• baiting
• "educating" us in how that nerf is the will of god and needed

 

But i've never seen someone try to flip a nerf into a buff. I guess i've seen everything now...

[Leonidrex.5649]

2 hours ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

Even assuming the worst care scenario where a condi build stays somewhat comparable power-wise, power mirage builds have still been buffed significantly. Being able to daze-chain your opponent with MH sword twice should not to be underestimated.

Ironically, a lot of my suggestions were listened to during Jon Peters time, at the old forums, when he and J. Sharp used to communicate with us quite often.

Balance was thrown out of the windows with the power creep that came from the last trait system iteration + elite specs. The first wave of elite specs which happened while... J. Peters was still at Anet.

Define "this context". The "I'm going to ignore the indirect power up from having a second dodge and pretend those number changes only exist in a vacuum" context?

Go to elementalist forum.
Tell them that elementalist needs 20 different hard nerfs.
Then tell them not to worry because they will get extra 0.25s daze in return.
Come back to us a tell us how they responded 😄

[Varis.5467]

49 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Every time mesmer gets a nerf there's some kitten coming here either:

• gloating
• baiting
• "educating" us in how that nerf is the will of god and needed

 

But i've never seen someone try to flip a nerf into a buff. I guess i've seen everything now...

I think that's the copium in them talking 🤣🤣🤣

[Adonaj.7932]

30 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Go to elementalist forum.
Tell them that elementalist needs 20 different hard nerfs.
Then tell them not to worry because they will get extra 0.25s daze in return.
Come back to us a tell us how they responded 😄

well im ele main for ~1 year. i think cata need a nerf. also they are buffing signet tempest for some reason. they are gonna be unkillable in competitive pretty much. idk what is going on tho. i feel..well i dont like be nerfed and also i dont like to be OP like ele is now and will be even more accroding to patch notes.