Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!

[voltaicbore.8012]

14 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

What needs adding in is solid reliable damage skills, mobility and at the very least short range teleport/switching more often because "mesmers shouldn't get hit" is the reason all mesmer heals are awful.

Yes. This is exactly what I meant by mesmer being "wrong" and suffering for it - it's uniqueness forces Anet to counterbalance it in terrible ways, resulting in said weak heals, and forcing power mesmer players to stack up huge bursts to get anything done (as opposed to the "solid reliable damage skills" that would bring it in line with more normal gameplay). The net result of mesmer's uniqueness is that it constantly vacillates between untouchable and dead, because Anet attempts to balance the unique things it does with heavy nerfs to the non-unique things it does.

23 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Well, i'm glad you know better than the devs who made the core systems when they developed the game, and in fact designed the Mesmer, Ele, Ranger and Thief to work in conjuction with those systems. I'm sure they'll be glad to hear they were wrong.

Here's a piece of logic for you... it is possible to (1) be the designer of something, and (2) design that something in a flawed way... at the same time! Gasp! Who would have known? Moreover, one need not be an expert in the design of a product to discern that a product has some design flaws! I can already hear the "sniffle sniffle well if you think this game is so flawed, why do you play it?" Short answer: sunk cost. I log in for dailies and some casual stuff, and I stick around because there's the chance that future content releases might offer me some more fun at a justifiable cost. None of that logically means I can't say the game is flawed if I think it is.

More seriously, I sincerely believe that the unique essences of ele and mesmer in particular were, from day one, on a collision course with balanced sPvP. I will continue to enjoy your frustration at having only one dodge (at least until Anet gives it back to you, whenever that might be).

21 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

I think it would help voltaicbore to say how broken ranger is in WvW and why so people don't think he's a mesmer hating hypocrite.

Initially I considered including a more extensive discussion on how ranger, ele, and thief also suffer for being "wrong," but eh. And yes, in case anyone isn't aware, ranger is quite limited in what it can do well in WvW. Beyond just WvW, ranger as a whole suffers from pets simply not doing what the class design assumes they will do.

I have no interest in salvaging my reputation in here though. I made it quite clear that I derive a petty enjoyment from the suffering of the mesmer class; the fact that I personally play a class with very well-documented drawbacks doesn't take away from that pettiness. I embrace the confused emojis, just as deeply as I embrace the frustration of one dodge mirages.

[Veprovina.4876]

3 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

I can already hear the "sniffle sniffle well if you think this game is so flawed, why do you play it?"

Wrong, i don't care about you or your reasons to play.

You can have your opinion, but none of what you're writing right now has anything to do with this thread or our treatment.

And really, no one wants to hear the reasons with a strong entrance like "i came to Mesmer forums because i hate Mesmers and i'm going to tell them how awful they are".

Everyone likes a lecture from a hater, and will take you seriously.

Sorry but, what did you expect would happen?

 

See, @Rubi Bayer.8493, this is what we're talking about.

We're asking for a bare minimum, our dodge back, something that everyone else has, even the classes designed to function with just one.

And this is what we're getting, people coming here with endless lectures how we're the worst thing ever and continuously insulting  attitute from every angle.

 

Is it such a crime to want that dodge?

Edited May 10, 2023 by Veprovina.4876

[apharma.3741]

1 hour ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

Initially I considered including a more extensive discussion on how ranger, ele, and thief also suffer for being "wrong," but eh. And yes, in case anyone isn't aware, ranger is quite limited in what it can do well in WvW. Beyond just WvW, ranger as a whole suffers from pets simply not doing what the class design assumes they will do.

I have no interest in salvaging my reputation in here though. I made it quite clear that I derive a petty enjoyment from the suffering of the mesmer class; the fact that I personally play a class with very well-documented drawbacks doesn't take away from that pettiness. I embrace the confused emojis, just as deeply as I embrace the frustration of one dodge mirages.

I mean, if you honestly think ranger is limited in WvW I don't know what to say, maybe learn to play because it's the best roamer and great in zergs and it scales far better than many other classes. They even made it so you can use the pet ability while it's dead to cover up most of the downsides.
You are right about one thing though, it is very petty.

[ventress.4879]

@voltaicbore.8012

The only real thing I agree with is that most of the player base hate mesmer and still do. They are going so far as to ask for Virtuoso nerfs the last remaining good Duelist we have. 

[AshkyLicious.4729]

@voltaicbore.8012 You go on hate as much as you want... atleast I know who I should look after for a easy defeat in PvP next time 😂 

Btw Anet! Dont think I forgotten about my second dodge... still waiting for it!

[Waffles.5632]

30 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

  indicating that there's something special about ranger that makes fighting a mesmer easier. But again, logic and reason isn't much of a thing around here, myself included.

Ranger pet AI always targets the real Mesmer, so yes there is actually something special about Ranger that specifically makes fighting Mes easier lol.

With that being said though, in the spirit of actual fairness, pets can't jump so any player who knows that fact can easily abuse it.

 

[Salt Mode.3780]

On 5/11/2023 at 5:20 AM, Waffles.5632 said:

Ranger pet AI always targets the real Mesmer, so yes there is actually something special about Ranger that specifically makes fighting Mes easier lol.

With that being said though, in the spirit of actual fairness, pets can't jump so any player who knows that fact can easily abuse it.

 

like I told that person its a L2P issue not a Mesmer issue lol imagine a ranger who doesnt know that the pet AI targets the real Mesmer

Edited May 13, 2023 by Salt Mode.3780

[Moradorin.6217]

On 5/8/2023 at 10:56 AM, pninak.1069 said:

 true mirage can't chase even with the ports it has. it is too much risk to do so. think also most ambush skills aren't even that great since it is mostly condi foicussed so taking power most likely handcaps you instead.

 

think it partly to blame on the community tho. I play pretty much all classes and thief and mesmer were longtime considered the best picks because of stealth, evade and ports. think mirage developed anticlimactic to how untamed is these days. it is underrated spec thus has pretty broken traits. meanwhile mirage was a bigshot when pof came out and didn't really manage to sustain its position. I hope it gets it second dodge back or gets compensated for it otherwise(as in more dmg, endurance gain on skill use and similiar). But as said the class design in itself is an issue for many since somehow clones are too much to deal with. there is also the argument to be made regarding trade-offs. most got their trade-off removed and others still keep theirs, some specs just seem to upgrade the class instead of just refining the playstyle. think anet is tampering too much with these inconsistencies. I mean with vindi getting 2 dodges and zerker not losing armor we could go and expect no overheat and toolbelt penalty for holo, weapon swap for bladesworn . . .

Mirage and thief always had hard counters in other classes. Therefore, to call them the best is bias. What I mean is, if the best can be taken out quickly and reliably with another class than its not the best its as good maybe, but has counters. The forums called Thief and Mesmer the best because they mess with players heads by design and many players have a hard time dealing with how that makes them feel when they lose. So then they decide the thing they dont understand that keeps killing them must be the best. 

That said, I would argue many other classes have always been better at some things and Mesmer/Thief are better at some things (used to be not now, maybe) and that should be ok cause who wants a homogynous pile of options that are all the same package with a different class name.

 

Mesmer and Thief gave the game flavor just like ranger, engi, necro, etc. Imagine how boring the game would have been otherwise.

 

Bottom line: Mesmer and Thief was never the best because they always had hard counters. Even when Thief and Mesmer hard countered one another a good Warrior could still outsustain a Mirage and take them out with all the mobility, cc + full Counter as could others back when Mirage had 2 dodges. People are just bias.

[Moradorin.6217]

On 5/9/2023 at 6:51 PM, voltaicbore.8012 said:

To me it sounds like mesmer mains want their second mirage dodge back primarily in WvW. Few people seem to mention how mirage can still work in sPvP, and the one person who did early in the thread seems to have been shouted down.

I've said it openly elsewhere, I'm a mesmer hater. My hate is based on the fact that its competitiveness in... the competitive modes seems to depend greatly on the availability of access to blocks, invulns, massive power spikes from stealth requiring macro-like performance from the mesmer, or alternately dependence on confu/torment when taking rapid action and moving a lot (this is relevant only to pre-rework torment) are things players are supposed to do. A 'counter' class sounds cool on paper, until you realize it has to lean very hard into punishing behaviors that other classes must take to be effective. Thus by default, the devs would have to really nerf mesmer's ability to make these huge punishments, which is precisely what they do, and never give anything back. Look at cata in sPvP to see what happens when a class that can freely punish others doesn't get the nerf hammer properly.

And this is NOT in any way the fault of mesmer players. It's just that the class has been bounced around and has so many underlying problems, y'all have no choice other than to rely on these counter-to-how-everyone-else-plays-GW2 things.

I think all these 'counter' properties are what keep mirage (barely) afloat in sPvP. Because sPvP is purely conquest mode, the short bursts of invuln, blink movement, detarget, and stealth are enough to reset because the conflict is fundamentally centered on nodes. Also if you're not pressured enough to run away, there are just enough offensive tools to get the job done in a 1v1.

Note that these are all side-noder behaviors I'm describing, which are often 1v1s. I can see even in sPvP that mirages aren't a huge threat in teamfights for the most part, because those situations aren't about forcing tough decisions on the opponent like side node 1v1s are. As such, I can totally see WvW mirages feeling left behind. And no, I don't think WvW roaming is anything close to sPvP sidenoding. sPvP inherently offers a ton of opportunity to disengage within a short time and distance, where a lot of the open terrain in WvW roaming isn't quite as forgiving in my experience.

I just don't see a stable, healthy long term future for mirage in competitive though, given that it shares the general mesmer class design of being the counter/counterintuitive class. I'm sure there's a studio or a game that could handle a 'counter' class like mesmer, but I'm not sure Anet and GW2 are it.

What it ends up coming down to more than anything is continuity. That is, I want to be able to play Mirage as my main spec if I choose, but I have always jumped between all 3 game modes to stay entertained and fill in the otherwise empty spaces in my game time. Playing in pve with 2 dodges then jumping into wvw/pvp for a bit and suddenly the same spec has one dodge and the basic core mechanics of how dodge is used changes cause of one dodge not two. THAT IS WHAT IS WRONG!

 

I wont suggest one dodge in all 3 modes is the best option, but I will say it would better to have one dodge Mirage in pve, wvw & pvp from a continuity standpoint. IMO they would then need to do massive boosts to its dps output tho cause, yeah. Which just drives in the point that its kittened up right now and needs to have a consistent number of dodges and two dodges is probably the easiest to balance.... JUST have to say WTF tho cause CMC did the opposite 4+ years ago. *throws up hands with middle fingers flying* LOL

[Veprovina.4876]

5 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

I wont suggest one dodge in all 3 modes is the best option, but I will say it would better to have one dodge Mirage in pve, wvw & pvp from a continuity standpoint.

If Vindicator proved anything is that GW2 combat, encounters, AOE sizes and literally everything is designed around 2 dodges. You can't just slap 1 dodge on a class, and call it a day.

Even Vindicator that was designed to function as one, had good dodge and travel time, and everything supporting it couldn't function.

 

So the fact that we still have one dodge, and that there's SO much drama around returning the dodge shows a massive unprofessional bias from the current balance team. Why is this allowed to still go on when there's literally no argument that this is a good idea! They themselves don't think having one dodge is a good idea - they proved that with Vindicator, so withholding the 2nd dodge from Mirage is just abuse at this point.

 

And i know what you mean, it's WAY too janky going from 1 to 2 dodges, so it would be better for consistency, but 2 should be minimum in this game, no matter what other mechanics they deem fit...

Edited May 13, 2023 by Veprovina.4876

[apharma.3741]

9 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Mirage and thief always had hard counters in other classes. Therefore, to call them the best is bias. What I mean is, if the best can be taken out quickly and reliably with another class than its not the best its as good maybe, but has counters. The forums called Thief and Mesmer the best because they mess with players heads by design and many players have a hard time dealing with how that makes them feel when they lose. So then they decide the thing they dont understand that keeps killing them must be the best. 

That said, I would argue many other classes have always been better at some things and Mesmer/Thief are better at some things (used to be not now, maybe) and that should be ok cause who wants a homogynous pile of options that are all the same package with a different class name.

 

Mesmer and Thief gave the game flavor just like ranger, engi, necro, etc. Imagine how boring the game would have been otherwise.

 

Bottom line: Mesmer and Thief was never the best because they always had hard counters. Even when Thief and Mesmer hard countered one another a good Warrior could still outsustain a Mirage and take them out with all the mobility, cc + full Counter as could others back when Mirage had 2 dodges. People are just bias.

In terms of WvW I think it's more of a case of mesmers and thieves (back then) were a lot more mobile than many other classes or they had the stealth to disengage more reliably from a bad situation that other classes didn't have. Then we got more homogenisation via elite specs which made every class have a spec that was super mobile except a lot of the time they didn't have to be glass cannons to do it too as it was built on that more battle capable base compared to mesmer/thief.
Everything changed when the fire nation warclaw attacked and even the slowest and most battle capable builds were as mobile out of combat as mesmer/thief. Were mesmer and thief compensated for this? Thief was....I guess mesmer has Virtuoso meme block and invuln spam but it's nowhere near the levels of engineer and ranger in WvW where they have 3 mobile very capable damage specs.

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

In terms of WvW I think it's more of a case of mesmers and thieves (back then) were a lot more mobile than many other classes or they had the stealth to disengage more reliably from a bad situation that other classes didn't have. Then we got more homogenisation via elite specs which made every class have a spec that was super mobile except a lot of the time they didn't have to be glass cannons to do it too as it was built on that more battle capable base compared to mesmer/thief.
Everything changed when the fire nation warclaw attacked and even the slowest and most battle capable builds were as mobile out of combat as mesmer/thief. Were mesmer and thief compensated for this? Thief was....I guess mesmer has Virtuoso meme block and invuln spam but it's nowhere near the levels of engineer and ranger in WvW where they have 3 mobile very capable damage specs.

Have you tried chasing a warrior? or a ranger...it isn't that Mesmer has tons of mobility its the combination of stealth that makes it seem like it has tons of mobility. A mirage with 2 dodges + sword ambush + blink and 3 jaunts will fail to catch a warrior down if the warrior or ranger chooses to run.

[apharma.3741]

6 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Have you tried chasing a warrior? or a ranger...it isn't that Mesmer has tons of mobility its the combination of stealth that makes it seem like it has tons of mobility. A mirage with 2 dodges + sword ambush + blink and 3 jaunts will fail to catch a warrior down if the warrior or ranger chooses to run.

That is what I said: "mesmers and thieves (back then) were a lot more mobile than many other classes or they had the stealth to disengage more reliably from a bad situation that other classes didn't have."

I know that mesmers can't catch anything now because of biased balancing around making everything faster, while giving mesmer with one hand (mirage thrust) and then taking with the other (2 dodges -> 1 dodge) while adding more mobility to elite specs and the final insult warclaw.

[appelflap.8310]

Anet just should give mesmers easy access to swiftness like literally every other class and it would solve so much problems. Been telling that for years..

OR like 15+ different +25% movement speed runes pls? Let us have some variety.

Edited May 14, 2023 by appelflap.8310

[Waffles.5632]

1 hour ago, appelflap.8310 said:

Anet just should give mesmers easy access to swiftness like literally every other class and it would solve so much problems. Been telling that for years..

OR like 15+ different +25% movement speed runes pls? Let us have some variety.

Yeah being forced into lynx/traveler runes for years in spvp has been one of my biggest gripes by far, almost as frustrating as having one dodge.

[Salt Mode.3780]

7 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

That is what I said: "mesmers and thieves (back then) were a lot more mobile than many other classes or they had the stealth to disengage more reliably from a bad situation that other classes didn't have."

I know that mesmers can't catch anything now because of biased balancing around making everything faster, while giving mesmer with one hand (mirage thrust) and then taking with the other (2 dodges -> 1 dodge) while adding more mobility to elite specs and the final insult warclaw.

I mean like I said even with 2 dodge mesmers failed to catch some of these specs. With warclaw added they can simply get OOC and use their own warclaw. Condi Mirage even with 2 dodge was only good in fights if the enemy decides to stick around to fight. If they choose to run there is no way a CMirage can ever catch up. In SPvP sure because you are forced to fight on a node which is why SPvP is so kitten boring, but in WvW there is no way a CMirage can finish anyone if they decide not to fight and just run.

[apharma.3741]

14 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I mean like I said even with 2 dodge mesmers failed to catch some of these specs. With warclaw added they can simply get OOC and use their own warclaw. Condi Mirage even with 2 dodge was only good in fights if the enemy decides to stick around to fight. If they choose to run there is no way a CMirage can ever catch up. In SPvP sure because you are forced to fight on a node which is why SPvP is so kitten boring, but in WvW there is no way a CMirage can finish anyone if they decide not to fight and just run.

Yeah...I know. I've played just about every mesmer build there is to make in WvW and honestly I've just stopped playing it because it's so much easier and more enjoyable playing something else especially ranger. Ranger is so completely broken in WvW, has more mobility than anything but possibly thief and maybe full mobility warrior and has all the combat potential or better than 90% of classes. I'm still new to it so need to practise smokescale stealth on demand combos but once that's down I can stealth on demand, take 50% less damage for a fairly long time, perma prot, 15-25 stacks of might, perma fury, vigor, swiftness and plenty of stability while passively applying poison on every attack. Depending on build I can immobilise and daze spam you to the point where it's just flat out worse than being moa'd because you can't move or use skills unless you have a teleport and cleanse like warriors sprint or mech shift signet.
Can I play decent on mesmer, yes but it's not fun to play from such a disadvantage and never be able to chase someone down to get the kill while they can disengage from you, heal up and range pressure you while some other potato keeps you in combat.

[Moradorin.6217]

On 5/14/2023 at 4:33 AM, apharma.3741 said:

That is what I said: "mesmers and thieves (back then) were a lot more mobile than many other classes or they had the stealth to disengage more reliably from a bad situation that other classes didn't have."

I know that mesmers can't catch anything now because of biased balancing around making everything faster, while giving mesmer with one hand (mirage thrust) and then taking with the other (2 dodges -> 1 dodge) while adding more mobility to elite specs and the final insult warclaw.

Agreed but also agree that Salt has a point in that even in Mirage's hey day Spellbreaker was a good counter to it and when well played had enough mobility to chase down the 2 dodge version of Mirage too. I think the argument at the time was that for classes ilke weaver, guard, ranger, warrior they tended to be less forgiving when the played made certain mistakes, while the Mirage was harder to punish for typical mistakes. Specifically, as I recall in 2017-18 the topic of punishing mistakes was BIG and lead to the concept of trade-offs. That is really what led to one dodge. It was maybe just a way to prepunish for choosing Mirage in the first place since they had a hard time punishing it for single errors of timing as much or as easily as things like weaver. Just something I was thinking sorta makes sense.

 

[Moradorin.6217]

I was considering recently that Perhaps Mirage should be given a baseline of 3 dodges in pve/pvp/wvw, but have Mirrors removed. Then re-tune ambush damage/effects, axe, and the deception skills. That way Mirage has better control over when to trigger MC (its dodge) but it would have a more consistent max uses which makes it easier to balance.

 

Also I was also pondering that a reasonable change might be to redo Infinite Horizon (IH) trait to EITHER give clones ambush damage output OR to enhance shatter skills to be stronger at the cost of the clones doing the ambush. Then the shatter damage skills for Mirage could be tuned more easily because the player could choose between a shatter centeric or ambush centric build emphasis via a GM trait. (just a thing I was thinking could work want feedback) Similar things could be done with other traits to give Mirage better trait options without destroying current playstyles badly.

[semak.7481]

11 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

The fact that there are people upvoting your post, says it all really...."use pet ability when dead" ...sure tell us which ranger spec does that and also give us this "great zerg build" you yappinga bout....the mesmer community is incredibly ***....

Ah yes... upvotes... defo proves who is right and whos not /s

I'm not really surprising of your mesmer hate posts, after I'v farmed you that many times I would hate mesmer too

Edited May 20, 2023 by semak.7481

[Arheundel.6451]

2 hours ago, semak.7481 said:

Ah yes... upvotes... defo proves who is right and whos not /s

I'm not really surprising of your mesmer hate posts, after I'v farmed you that many times I would hate mesmer too

There are so so so many mesmer running around like headless chickens, spamming distortion off CD using then either torch or decoy...PU kitten and what more...I am afraid you will have to identify yourself better, I don't have a list of all hamsters running around on their virtuoso, chrono bunker or core condi. I MANAGE TO KILL SOME OF THEM BY MASSIVELY OUTPLAYING THEM DESPITE ALL THE CHEESE CARRY THEY HAVE....AMAZING HOW THEY LOSE EVEN ON MESMERS... but yeah....it's overall a losing battle against distortion spam, reflect on dodge, stealth...and some even use double MoA form...lol killing those ones it's even funnier.....what impresses me the most about the GW2 playerbase is...FOTM class always happen to be the most skilled....last post here, I am wasting time anyway. I look at PvP...or even wvw, you see dozen of mesmers ...or yes those must be such skilled players...so many of them...and they are all so skilled

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Arheundel.6451

[semak.7481]

10 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

There are so so so many mesmer running around like headless chickens, spamming distortion off CD using then either torch or decoy...PU kitten and what more...I am afraid you will have to identify yourself better, I don't have a list of all hamsters running around on their virtuoso, chrono bunker or core condi. I manage to kill some of them by outplaying massively their kitten but yeah....it's overall a losing battle against distortion spam, reflect on dodge, stealth...and some even use double MoA form...lol killing those ones it's even funnier.....what impresses me the most about the GW2 playerbase is...FOTM class always happen to be the most skilled....last post here, I am wasting time anyway. I look at PvP...or even wvw, you see dozen of mesmers ...or yes those must be such skilled players...so many of them...and they are all so skilled

Not mentioned power chrono? Smh...

Everyone are unskilled but you are the only 1 who has skill... sure, whatever you say, but if you would have at least some it would be a trivial task with either untamed or soulbeast, but fortunately for the mesmers, thats not the case.

[Moradorin.6217]

24 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

There are so so so many mesmer running around like headless chickens, spamming distortion off CD using then either torch or decoy...PU kitten and what more...I am afraid you will have to identify yourself better, I don't have a list of all hamsters running around on their virtuoso, chrono bunker or core condi. I manage to kill some of them by outplaying massively their kitten but yeah....it's overall a losing battle against distortion spam, reflect on dodge, stealth...and some even use double MoA form...lol killing those ones it's even funnier.....what impresses me the most about the GW2 playerbase is...FOTM class always happen to be the most skilled....last post here, I am wasting time anyway. I look at PvP...or even wvw, you see dozen of mesmers ...or yes those must be such skilled players...so many of them...and they are all so skilled

 

This thread is about Mirage NOT chrono or Virt.

 

Also in an effort to help you I will point out ALL Ranger specs have the ability to use pet commands in the down state but you have to use the keybindings since....you are down. What I mean is, when a ranger is down they retain Function based pet commands and the pet swap key continues to work. So in addition to the pet being able to come and revive the player, the player can also use the pets f2 skill and even swap pets to get the f2 they need or if the first pet happens to be down they can just swap pets before pressing the lick wounds downstate skill. Additionally, a ranger can plan ahead and bring pets with certain skills like CC to help them avoid being finished. They do this by targeting the player trying to finish them then hit f2 with a pet that has CC on its f2 skill.... I mained ranger before and after mesmer btw.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

☝️🆙️ Mirage still needs your attention Anet!

[Anela.3867]

I love Mirage so much more than any of the other specs but it's so frustrating in PvP with only one dodge. Please give us back our second dodge.