Well, Steam complaints are starting to flood in...

[Miragen.6127]

1 minute ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

What is it, do you suppose, that pays for future development?  Good will?  That'll go a long way, just read through some of the first page here to find that out.  There is no monthly subscription fee here, so people's paychecks have to come from somewhere.  The lack of actual P2W elements in this shop is held up in every other MMO forum, except this one, as how a cash shop should be done.  Isn't that ironic?

 

Not trying to sell previously free content to new players for starters and push them away from the game, as getting more players will surely help pay for future development opposed to pushing them away trying to milk them from day 1.

 

The cash shop is a big part of the monetization system of GW2, so getting people to play your game will increase your cash shop earnings, something that does not happen if you'd rather push people away by showing them a $100 price tag rather than selling it for $50 and getting the rest through cash shop sales later whilst also improving the player count, the health of the game and everything. 

[Sunchaser.9854]

Imo, at least to me, as a tactical consumer  I think the main three primary models for mmorpgs are

o sub based (wow/ff14. You can unlock 100-1000s of mount skins for free, change hairstyles for free, buy cheap 30+ slot bags, there are no breakable tools since unlimited is default, you don't have to buy character slots, you start with like 10-20+ or unlimited per server. )

o freemium (no stats are sold, but if I pay 30$, I can have unbreakable tools, haircuts cost 5$, I can spend 30$-50$ to go 90 to 300 bag spaces in a freemium, purchase mount skins for 5-15$ but they are either unobtainable or rare without, etc).

o free to play, Pay to win ( f2p players are explicitly kill fodder and skill is not necessary required. I can buy cash shop gear tanks for 700% hp, 500% dps, 300% range. And I can miss 6 times in a row, take 6 point blank shots from a more skilled f2p, but instantly kill them with one shot in 7 landing with 500%/700% remaining and kill 30 players who then leave the game.)

Imo, gw2 is a decent player model but in terms of spectrum, my personal definition would be not p2w (pvp stats aren't sold, ascended can be obtained for 6-40g a piece vs 1700-3500g legendaries and traded.) But it could very well hit a mixture of free to play, buy once, own forever, and sold tools/haircuts/mount skins/backback space freemium models. 

Sub games can definitely be more expensive easily over time and 15$ pof + 10$ ls4:4 as a budget minded consumer is a great price. But steam only has 2 options. 30$ each or 100$ No sale. It could easily change with a sale. But when the new player hears they might want 100$ of all expacs, +30$ if they want full bag space, 30$ for unbreakable tools that also give more loot, no regional pricing.

And that you have to earn legendary armor but 8/9 lfg raid groups are raid sellers or no win guaranteed training groups. It can be easy to see why looking at all the 100-300$ of qol instead of just being happy with 15$ of pof or no sub can give people major sticker shock. 

 

It doesn't help either when you'd argue the wow mmorpg looks cheaper on paper but longer term as 3 months of wow costed 105$ (60$ box + 45$ sub). Includes all past expacs for free (but obsoleted). So instead of seeing it as a long term deal, they see 0$ + 15$ sub for wow and 100$ for gw2's complete single player story content, 30-60$ on if they want unbreakable tools / 10 character slots, 5-15$ for mount skins. 5-30$ on salvage o matics.

And the competition on steam for buy once play forever are literally 2.5$ past single player games like skyrim/portal/witcher. It's a harder sell to do 100-300$ than 15$ a month and when the competition makes it free it just becomes a way harder sale.

 

Gw2 is a good game but players are scared of the 100-300$ sticker shock over trying it for free or being happy on 15-25$ pof +ls4 gameplay. Much less for a 10 year old game that they don't know or might not have played before. Plus gw1 for better or worse still competes with itself as another buy once Own forever model with even less shop. 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Sunchaser.9854

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

1 minute ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

What is it, do you suppose, that pays for future development?  Good will?  That'll go a long way, just read through some of the first page here to find that out.  There is no monthly subscription fee here, so people's paychecks have to come from somewhere.  The lack of actual P2W elements in this shop is held up in every other MMO forum, except this one, as how a cash shop should be done.  Isn't that ironic?

MTX do not fund games or pay developers. if you still believe this you have been sleeping under a rock.
what MTX do is paying CEOs, managers and investor EVEN MORE money. Why do you think despite hundred millions of profit they lay off hundreds or thousands of people frequently? because they only made 900 million instead of 950 million in profit. so they lay off people who's salaries and wages they can use to reach the last 50 million and appease the investors.

[robertthebard.8150]

4 minutes ago, Miragen.6127 said:

 

I don't think it's pay to win, but it doesn't mean that to new players it might look that way if they see all these items without knowing exactly what it is and what alternatives you can obtain, a perspective worth considering.

 

Inventory management is a pain, every few minutes you have to stop and salvage items, store materials, destroy or sell junk, then find a merchant again to buy new salvage kits or harvesting tools and that is something you perpetually have to deal with, it's not pay to win, but it's annoying, your bank space is also very limited and you'll quickly run into issues with that as well.

 

Mechanics that remind you of free to play, pay to win MMOs and honestly feel tacky and cheap, which is a shame that it degrades the game like that.

Except that the game has been here for 10 years...  It's not seeming all that degraded.  When I was new, I understood that if I want some conveniences, I may have to get them.  However, I also understood, from actually playing the game, that I could make the most of the inventory slots I did have by crafting bigger bags, which doesn't require me to hit the cash shop at all...

[Miragen.6127]

4 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

it is P2w if you stop using only a 17 year old mindset. what you know is p2w is only the most blatant form of it. 
But when games shift focus from mastery and success over others to ...let's say... cosmetics...HAVING a cosmetic is an "advantage" over those who do NOT HAVE it.

It's a phycological game of "have's" and "not-have's"
here is how 6-7 years ago this was already known and merely presented to a broad field of publishers, CEOs and managers. 

basically the games industry has already changed what p2w means and since most gamers are not interested in the business side of the industry, they completely slept on how they are being  fed a mindset that is not up-to-date anymore

 

I mean the cash shop is obviously predatory and saying it's just optional is ignoring that aspect because it's not just that simple. 

It's abusing human psychology and can be very manipulative to push them towards spending money.. however whilst you can question the ethics and what not of these practices, and you could argue it's pay to win from a psychological aspect, in terms of gameplay and competitiveness it's still not P2W.

[Parasite.5389]

anyone with more that two braincells who looks through the negative review will notice

• most of the review have a playtime of less than 1 hour
• most are complaints from existing player who despite being told ad nausium by Anet for over a year, are upset that they can't use their existing login

and the remained are salty about 10 years of content costing less that what 10 years of a subsciption based MMO would cost

 

but overall the negative comments are greatly outweighed by the postive.

[robertthebard.8150]

2 minutes ago, Miragen.6127 said:

 

Not trying to sell previously free content to new players for starters and push them away from the game, as getting more players will surely help pay for future development opposed to pushing them away trying to milk them from day 1.

 

The cash shop is a big part of the monetization system of GW2, so getting people to play your game will increase your cash shop earnings, something that does not happen if you'd rather push people away by showing them a $100 price tag rather than selling it for $50 and getting the rest through cash shop sales later whilst also improving the player count, the health of the game and everything. 

You can have all the new players in the world, but if none of them are spending any money, you're still going to shut down.  I would much prefer some bank space and inventory/character slots to "the only way to get the best gear in the game is to buy this item from the cash shop", you know, the real P2W...

[Miragen.6127]

Just now, robertthebard.8150 said:

You can have all the new players in the world, but if none of them are spending any money, you're still going to shut down.  I would much prefer some bank space and inventory/character slots to "the only way to get the best gear in the game is to buy this item from the cash shop", you know, the real P2W...

 

Then these people also are not going to buy the game for a $100 either, so it changes nothing.

Logically a percentage of players will be spending money on the cash shop and a smaller percentage will spend so much money to cover for tons of other players.

And the more players you have, the better the odds of some of them spending money.

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, Miragen.6127 said:

 

It's not about what pay to win is, or even if GW2 is pay to win or not, it's about people not being under the impression that the game is something that it's not.

OP states :  

Yeah sure, you can say they are wrong but that is not the point, the point is why do people think this? Just saying they don't understand or dismissing them as trolls is not in anyone's best interest.

Sure, but if the reason they think like that, such as purposefully misrepresenting the facts in order to be cynical and cool for online cred, is due to deep seated psychological issues, it is beyond the scope of gamers to address.

[Mik.3401]

This was coming

Edited August 24, 2022 by Mik.3401

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

3 minutes ago, Miragen.6127 said:

 

I mean the cash shop is obviously predatory and saying it's just optional is ignoring that aspect because it's not just that simple. 

It's abusing human psychology and can be very manipulative to push them towards spending money.. however whilst you can question the ethics and what not of these practices, and you could argue it's pay to win from a psychological aspect, in terms of gameplay and competitiveness it's still not P2W.

i didn't argue that it doesn't. but i do argue p2w is not just gameplay and competitiveness alone any more.
focuses of games have shifted to things of social and psychological aspects. Essentially they took the "ashes of alar" which was cool to have because keal'thas was kittening hard at the time, made it 20 times better and slapped a 15-25 dollar prize tag on it. And gw2 even made it a freaking loot box out of it.
And its this "aww" effect that makes people who can swipe their card 40 times a day winning in that aspect as "the stupid free to play" has to grind either gold for months or the raid/strike mission to get something worth while.

[robertthebard.8150]

5 minutes ago, Miragen.6127 said:

 

Then these people also are not going to buy the game for a $100 either, so it changes nothing.

Logically a percentage of players will be spending money on the cash shop and a smaller percentage will spend so much money to cover for tons of other players.

And the more players you have, the better the odds of some of them spending money.

Sure, but in the meantime, you have to pay the bills.  It's become obvious that some people in this discussion have no concept for how a business works.  They think the money goes into a CEO or Board account, and management goes to party on the profits.  They don't seem to understand that electricity isn't free, and w/out that, there's no servers.  They don't understand that servers, and upkeep on them isn't free.  They don't understand that everyone at the company, from the janitor to the CEO draw paychecks, and that money has to come from somewhere.

To my earlier point, someone went through the trouble of providing a video that proves it.  Even when something isn't P2W, it is, because that's the only argument they know.

Edited August 24, 2022 by robertthebard.8150
typing too fast...

[Zyreva.1078]

17 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

literally in all MMOs you just listed there is story content after the expansion added later on.

But not for free.

17 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

"BuT tHe MoNtHlY fEeS!" you may be typing furiously on your keyboard but here is the thing. you pay them even if you do NOT buy the expansion packs: in

So instead of only charging you for new content, they also continue to charge for old content you have already payed for ... and that's somehow better?

If you are such a big fan of subscription fees, why not just spend X amount of money on gems every month and voila - you can afford every single piece of living story and a bunch of other stuff "for free" - accoding to your logic.

 

GW2 isn't a perfect game and there are certainly aspects that deserve criticism, but in my opinion the monetisation is one of the fairest on the market.

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

1 minute ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

But not for free.

So instead of only charging you for new content, they also continue to charge for old content you have already payed for ... and that's somehow better?

If you are such a big fan of subscription fees, why not just spend X amount of money on gems every month and voila - you can afford every single piece of living story and a bunch of other stuff "for free" - accoding to your logic.

 

GW2 isn't a perfect game and there are certainly aspects that deserve criticism, but in my opinion the monetisation is one of the fairest on the market.

but they are... you own the expansion (while paying the monthly fee which i already said is merely access to game) and you get them without purchasing extra them literally the entire second half you left out explains it

[Zyreva.1078]

1 minute ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

but they are... you own the expansion (while paying the monthly fee which i already said is merely access to game) and you get them without purchasing extra them literally the entire second half you left out explains it

But it's NOT free, whether they charge for the content directly or monthly regardless of the content. Nothing is free in a game with (mandatory) subscription cost.

Again, why not just buy gems monthly and use those to get whatever living story you want? It would be the same as getting "free" content with a monthly fee, except it would actually be optional, not mandatory. Which is a huge upside.

[Sunchaser.9854]

Right and like. Gw2 can easily be a game you can spend 0$, 15$, 100%, or even 300-500$ on 90 to 300 bag slots, 50 character slots, 20 shared inventory slots. Cosmetic mounts for each character. Numerous salvage o matics and unbreakable tools sure to someone who spent 60$ on wow and got all the mounts and lost access to the game. But like come on.

 

That's at least not a game where bill gates walks into a raid, spends 7000$ on the nukinator and gets a p2w cash armor set that gives him 10x more stats than the raid boss and entire team combined, and then puts in a p2w  Diablo immortal loot key that gives like 500x more loot for spending 20$ to raid a easy dungeon than a f2p. 

You can still spend 100-300$/+ on either game but bill gates isn't buying more stats than you. A raid team on lfg... Maybe.. But I'm a person who likes to win my achievements.

The idea of paying someone else to beat the game for you is like paying money to Not play the Game.  But to some. That is "winning", but a hollow one, no? 

[Miragen.6127]

25 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Sure, but if the reason they think like that, such as purposefully misrepresenting the facts in order to be cynical and cool for online cred, is due to deep seated psychological issues, it is beyond the scope of gamers to address.

 

If they intentionally do it than yeah, but I just mean to at least consider a genuine confusion due to how the game is presented to them before dismissing it.

[Miragen.6127]

25 minutes ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

Sure, but in the meantime, you have to pay the bills.  It's become obvious that some people in this discussion have no concept for how a business works.  They think the money goes into a CEO or Board account, and management goes to party on the profits.  They don't seem to understand that electricity isn't free, and w/out that, there's no servers.  They don't understand that servers, and upkeep on them isn't free.  They don't understand that everyone at the company, from the janitor to the CEO draw paychecks, and that money has to come from somewhere.

To my earlier point, someone went through the trouble of providing a video that proves it.  Even when something isn't P2W, it is, because that's the only argument they know.

 

Everyone understands that companies need to make money, as people love to repeat over and over again, but it doesn't mean that their way of doing it is optimal, consumer friendly or should be free from criticism.

 

Instead of forcing a $100 price tag on new players, half of which was previously free content you could give them a good deal and get them invested in the game.. single time payments are supposedly not viable for paying the bills long term so why would you turn down potential long term customers due to a single time purchase? 

 

The amount of people that have played for the last 10 years surely generated a lot more income than a $100 per person, their initial investment not comparing to their long term commitment.. imagine not having all those players because of a dumb offer back in 2012 turning them away, you're sacrificing long term income that the game needs in favor for an unsustainable single time profit.. and you likely end up with neither one and look like a giant fool.

[SuavePuppy.2809]

3 hours ago, roederich.2716 said:

but if you guys are just a little true to yourself you have to admit that playing all expansions and living story makes it impossible to just play with 1 bankslot and that little inventory you are given as you are looting and getting all kinds of story items permanently into your inventory alone

Pretty sure that's how I did it

[Gibson.4036]

2 minutes ago, SuavePuppy.2809 said:

Pretty sure that's how I did it

I have two extra bank slots, but have never bought more inventory space and don’t see the need to. The standard slots filled with even 18 slot bags is enough.

[Luthan.5236]

Well ... it's Steam. People there complain about everything. I warned about this before. Community is very picky. I also saw a thread about a level 10 mission bug or something. They would just stop to play the game and "warn" others ... even if some bug only happneed one time and at the 2nd try it worked - without further bugs later.

[Infusion.7149]

1. Some people still don't understand the concept of pay to win yet. GW2 isn't pay to win, more of pay for convenience and cosmetics. The business model is also such that anything you can purchase for gems you can also buy with gold via the ingame conversion.
   a) Given the most wanted convenience items (copper fed salvage, unbreakable tools) are present in the "Steam Elite Jump Start pack" for 2400 gems there isn't much reason for confusion beyond living story separation which is nonexistent on Steam due to the Complete Collection containing Living World. (see https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/27271/Guild_Wars_2__Complete_Collection/?snr=1_5_9__403)
   b) There's actually a GDC conference presentation from Arenanet regarding microtransactions. (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4Hdyl0avz8 , the 95 slides at GDC Vault - Good Design Makes Happy Customers: A Microtransaction Design Primer , and Q&A: Making microtransactions work for players in Guild Wars 2 (gamedeveloper.com))
2.  It would be more beneficial for the veteran players crowding new player zones to go edit the wiki and update the sections for the core game.
3. There are players with thousands of hours that are "invested" in the game and feel overtly negative about it. They tend to be the ones that chase AP or leaderboards. The problem is sometimes not the game, the problem is the player's expectations.
4. PvP/WvW have been woefully neglected far more than instanced PvE content. Despite people claiming strikes are not raids, the strike CMs are more or less a stand-in for raids. PvP has received far more updates balance-wise compared to WvW and even in recent patches WvW updates were secondary. 
5. First impressions are important for steam players and casual players.
6. People asking for existing accounts to use the Steam payment system must be unaware Steam takes a 30% cut.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Infusion.7149
add links for GDC conference

[Freya.9075]

Ah yes. The 80% good reviews really shows how bad this game is. Imagine players giving a good review about a game they like to play. Disgusting 

 

the naysayers are squirming in their gaming chairs as they want the game to burn and die when it doesn’t. The game is doing good. Maps are filled with players enjoying the game for what it is. It is a 10 year old mmo. No mmo is perfect. 

[Miragen.6127]

15 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

1. Some people still don't understand the concept of pay to win yet. GW2 isn't pay to win, more of pay for convenience and cosmetics. The business model is also such that anything you can purchase for gems you can also buy with gold via the ingame conversion.
   a) Given the most wanted convenience items (copper fed salvage, unbreakable tools) are present in the "Steam Elite Jump Start pack" for 2400 gems there isn't much reason for confusion beyond living story separation which is nonexistent on Steam due to the Complete Collection containing Living World. (see https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/27271/Guild_Wars_2__Complete_Collection/?snr=1_5_9__403)

 

Yet a store page doesn't even exist for Living world and it just mentions you cannot refund them, yeah I'm sure that'll convince people to send over 40 bucks for whatever that is.

 

Living World seasons continue the Guild Wars 2 story between expansions and must be purchased separately through your Story Journal or in Gem Store bundles. Play Living World episodes to unlock new explorable zones, rewards, and Masteries.

 

Only bit if info you can find is on the previous page which is just a bit they copy pasted from elsewhere without every checking it as it mentions you have to buy them in game and not .. you know.. on the Steam store.

 

[Infusion.7149]

14 minutes ago, Miragen.6127 said:

 

Yet a store page doesn't even exist for Living world and it just mentions you cannot refund them, yeah I'm sure that'll convince people to send over 40 bucks for whatever that is.

 

Living World seasons continue the Guild Wars 2 story between expansions and must be purchased separately through your Story Journal or in Gem Store bundles. Play Living World episodes to unlock new explorable zones, rewards, and Masteries.

 

Only bit if info you can find is on the previous page which is just a bit they copy pasted from elsewhere without every checking it as it mentions you have to buy them in game and not .. you know.. on the Steam store.

 

There isn't a store page because Living World cannot be purchased separately on Steam accounts via the Steam page (maybe there's an option to do so via gems). It's clearly stated there on the Steam page. It's clear Arenanet needs to implement a way to purchase Living Story or include it with the respective expansions if that hasn't been done already. Not sure what else that can be done regarding that. I believe the whole point of selling the entire collections is to avoid any confusion. As it is not necessary to own the collection to try the core game, I don't see that as a valid complaint. Nor would I advise any prospective player to pick up the entire collection if they do not have the slightest idea if they will like it.