Semi-hot take: FFXIV's story can't hold a candle to GW2's

[Shrike Arghast.3856]

... not in terms of pacing, not in terms of consistency of narrative or overall emotional depth, and not even in terms of voice acting.

I know that SE gets a lot of praise for their MMORPG's story, but I just don't think it has anything on that of GW2 - the lore here feels deeper, and more committed to an over-arching, long-term, semi-Tolkienesque (in scope, not tone) mythos that FFXIV lacks almost entirely. While half their freaking raids (and the massive quest lines that lead up to them) spend their time pandering to memberberries and call-outs to previous games (almost none of which took place on Eorzea, stretching belief even further), Tyria truly feels like a place that has been lived in for 10,000+ years, and casually references its own unique history with a confident flair. Nearly every quest, valiant heart, and even POI only serve to deepen the lore - even if they do so in small ways. Finally, it must be said that the humor here just lands more consistently than it does there - I often find myself laughing out loud at the dialogue, whereas the forced efforts of FFXIV to pull anime-like hijinks (even when the character models can't do the over-the-top emoting necessary) nearly all fall flat.

That's all I had. I know the game is 10 years old; I know this is likely its last expansion. But I just wanted to say: this is the finest MMORPG storytelling of the era, and it really isn't close.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Shrike Arghast.3856

[voltaicbore.8012]

1 minute ago, Shrike Arghast.3856 said:

Nearly every quest, valiant heart, and even POI only serve to deepen the lore - even if they do so in small ways.

I fully agree that ANet shines brightest in the smaller world-building moments. A favorite detail I like to note is 3 NPC kids playing in Divinity's Reach - they're playing something like centaur-bandit-seraph, then they all go home for dinner. When they return and play again, they switch roles. Divinity's Reach in general is a shining example of how to make a place feel lived in, and it's easy to believe the NPCs there have lives completely independent of your character passing through.

4 minutes ago, Shrike Arghast.3856 said:

I know this is likely its last expansion.

They already announced they're working on the next one. We know nothing aside from the fact that they officially told us they're working on it, but still.

[Gibson.4036]

Since both games have been out for years, how is this even a semi-hot take?

[Shrike Arghast.3856]

1 minute ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

I fully agree that ANet shines brightest in the smaller world-building moments. A favorite detail I like to note is 3 NPC kids playing in Divinity's Reach - they're playing something like centaur-bandit-seraph, then they all go home for dinner. When they return and play again, they switch roles. Divinity's Reach in general is a shining example of how to make a place feel lived in, and it's easy to believe the NPCs there have lives completely independent of your character passing through.

They already announced they're working on the next one. We know nothing aside from the fact that they officially told us they're working on it, but still.

DR feels more lived-in than the competition's cities, too. Part of it has to do with better scaling, compression, and forced perspective tricks; part of it has to do with color palette choices that are simply smarter overall.

However, I'd argue the biggest thing that separates a city on Tyria from one on Eorzea is that Tyria's urban areas are actually cluttered with benches, trees, debris, garbage, broken items, etc... whereas those on Eorzea are sterile enough to perform major surgery. Cities - even Japanese cities - aren't perfect - they look lived-in. Divinity's Reach is a home run in that regard. 

[DexterousGecko.6328]

That's quite the hot take on the guild wars 2 forum lol

[Shrike Arghast.3856]

1 minute ago, DexterousGecko.6328 said:

That's quite the hot take on the guild wars 2 forum lol

Well if I posted it on the FFXIV forums, I'd be banned. Their reddit, too.

[voltaicbore.8012]

2 minutes ago, DexterousGecko.6328 said:

That's quite the hot take on the guild wars 2 forum lol

To be fair, a lot of us think that GW2's narrative is quite weak, and FF14's reputation is being the major MMO that is good at story. I disagree with all the praise heaped on the FF14 MSQ, but that appears to be a minority position among people who've played it.

I'm a longtime fan of the FF franchise, but I feel I kind of grew out of it around FF8 in terms of narrative (I've still played FF8-10, and 12 for gameplay reasons). I believe YoshiP when he says FF14 is an FF game before it's an MMO - it gives me the same "eh it's nice, but kind of teenager-y" when it comes to story.

As for GW2, ANet has consistently struggled with issues of scale when it comes to the story. I'm looking forward to them finally being narratively free from the Dragon cycle, so not everything has to be massive world ending threats that can only be solved with the Power of Friendship. I'm all for the old fault lines returning, with the associated drama.

 

[erapago.4387]

Look, I love Guild Wars 2 but there's nothing going on with lore here. It's a character drama about the commander, the love birds, the forever sickly deus ex machina generator, the brooding teenager, the sidelined ranger, the grumpus, the simp, the centaur murderer, and the granddaughter versus the next big world ending baddie.

Edited August 29, 2022 by erapago.4387

[Fueki.4753]

While none of FF14's later content had ever been able to beat Heavensward (in my opinion), it's still constant and good quality.

GW2's story and lore on the other hand keep getting worse and worse, having met the lowest imaginable point with the introduction of radioactively glowing jade trash. I just hope Arenanet won't try to dig past that point.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Endaris.1452]

18 minutes ago, erapago.4387 said:

Look, I love Guild Wars 2 but there's nothing going on with lore here. It's a character drama about the commander, the love birds, the forever sickly deus ex machina generator, the brooding teenager, the sidelined ranger, the grumpus, the simp, the centaur murderer, and the granddaughter versus the next big world ending baddie.

Quite apt.

I think core story is good as it is aside from some weird order problems in the 80 story and I also liked LS2 and HoT but it just starts to fizzle out after that. The theme of effectively becoming a pawn to your asura geniuses has consistently soured and dumbed down the story for me because rather than projecting a sense of urgency that makes me feel "ah yeah, we really need to do this", the story went more and more into the direction of straight up directing the player to do whatever your asuras think you should be doing next without even questioning any alternatives. While LS2 was VERY roundabout, I definitely appreciated the explorative aspect and how it meanders towards the conclusion while setting up plotlines on the side compared to the "do this, do that, we need a scan, you're an idiot that is nothing without Taimi and Gorrik, go there, talk to this person" that is prevalent in EoD story telling. With how big EoD and especially New Kaineng City are, you'd think there is more depth to this entire canthan society that is mostly conveniently ignored.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Endaris.1452

[Corabelle.3254]

You're wrong

EoD is just watered down Endwalker

Everything before that is even worse

The dialogue in this game is sometimes (mostly) cringe

FFXIV is definitely the better game story/lore wise. Guild wars 2 has better gameplay.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Corabelle.3254

[Glacial.9516]

I frequently praise a lot of the decisions made in GW2 compared to FF14. I personally think GW2 is one of, if not the most player-friendly MMO I have ever played. There are only a handful of situations where I feel the game is actively and unnecessarily preventing me from progressing in the way I'd like to (the first I can recall was the HoT Mastery required for the Auric Basin story, which while it was toned down, has been repeated several times after).

On the other hand, FF14's MSQ is one of the worst experiences I've had in games. A sizable portion of the game is gated behind it. It mixes solo-only story content with largely-unrelated group content. If GW2 functioned this way it would be the equivalent of preventing players from entering a PoF map until they've fully completed 1-80 story (incl. dungeons), LS1, LS2, HoT and LS3 (in order), and while this is a totally reasonable (and expected) path for most players who are playing through the story, it is an incredibly alt-unfriendly approach that effectively says "If you want to access X, complete Y quests first" (which can be in the upper hundreds of quest). All of this is not to say that FF14 is a bad game. I play it more than I do GW2, primarily for housing and RP but I can't help but resent Square and the game for some of their design decisions.

 

That said, I think the actual quality of the storytelling for both games is comparable. Both games have had story elements that I felt were extremely compelling and was pulled in by. And both have had instances where I wondered if five different people are writing chapters without consulting one another (or where story decisions made years ago are semi/wholly retconned going forward).

One of the main reasons I actually enjoy the GW2 story more than the FF14 one is that most of GW2 is told through instanced gameplay while most of FF14 is told through cutscenes. There are only a handful of story instances in FF14 (this has/does improve as the later expansions come out, but for example Heavensward has maybe 3 or 4 total, and Stormblood maybe 5. Meanwhile HoT has about 15 and probably 30+ if you include LS3 (which is semi-equivalent to post-expansion content in FF14). Of course this is a very individual reason to prefer it and also has more to do with the method of delivery rather than the actual content of the story itself.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Glacial.9516

[Teratus.2859]

I used to be a massive Final Fantasy fan and I still am for the old games.

But I hate what that series turned into after FF10, they butchered it hard.. and everything that made the series great and what made me a fan in the first place was pretty much gutted out, including the appeal of the story, worlds and characters etc.

 

Suffice to say I completely agree that Gw2 is better in all aspects than what Final Fantasy in the modern day tries to be.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Teratus.2859

[Randulf.7614]

GW2 strength is in the world building and map storytelling (prior to EoD). Whatever critics there are of PoF, it expertly told a story of the land across the maps involving the refugees and Jokos influence, which flipped on its head in Vabbi against the backdrop of a crushing Dragon presence overhead. It was also a massive strength of Guild Wars 1 and propped up the central narrative when it weakened.

Main story has been very hit and miss. Sometimes it got it right, but more often it did not utilise the World and the lore. The travesty of a story involving Aurene and the handling of the Elder Dragons might be one of the biggest waste of potentially better storylines I’ve seen in a game.

Most of the last ten years though show a level of map and side storytelling that is almost second to none in an mmo (maybe outside of Secret World which understood its lore, and setting better than any other). I hope they return to that.

I only played a little of Final Fantasy online, but I’d expect to it be as you described. Final Fantasy stories were always weird and got a bit off the wall towards the end. Yes I’m looking at you FF9

Edited August 29, 2022 by Randulf.7614

[Tinker.6924]

To each his own really. 

 

Personally, I think the FF14 story is probably well written but atrociously integrated into the game.  You don't play the Main Story Questline in FF14, you watch it.  My character, the Almighty Scion of Light, is actually a disabled mute and all it can do is passively watch cutscenes of others blabber on about important stuff that my character has no participation in.  I get to repeat that 1000 times and then I get to go do a raid.   

When it comes to integrating the story into the game,  GW2>WoW> watching paint dry > watching grass grow >>>>>> Watching (not playing) FF14 main story quests.

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by EmmetOtter.8542

[Bobzitto.8571]

I do think the -lore- and worldbuilding of GW2 are miles ahead of FF14 (in part due to the existence of GW1). There's a lot of story to the world and some of it is quite magnificent, like the story behind Orr or Ascalon. When looking at things at a grander scale, GW2 gets a lot right. However, the plot followed by GW2, imho, completely pales when compared to FF14. Nothing in GW2 is given proper time to breathe unlike in FF14, so everything feels as if it is resolved before it had a chance to be explored. To me, it feels like the game would benefit much more from having smaller, more insular stories that explore different areas and cultures of the world rather than the whole 'this thing is going to doom the whole world' on repeat. 

 

Also, Emet-selch. If you know, you know.

[RadiantWolf.2058]

GW2 story isn't a strong as FFXIV's for me but it's better told as a gameplay experience. I am at least playing through big moments instead of watching cutscenes and playing a walking simulator.

 

I mean I liked Endwalker but it was an awful lot of walking from one cutscene dump to the next.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Long time FF fan as well. After FF X-2 it started to go downhill gameplay wise.

FF XV the bro-venture of bros is brotastic, but I haven't had the chance or drive to play it to completion.

For the FF franchise it really depends on which director has the helm on any given game. FF Tactics though to me was peak FF story telling. Even FF XII had a good story, even if the gameplay was going downhill.

GW as a franchise has great lore and story. Anet knows how to tell a good story. Are there weak spots? Sure, that happens even to master story tellers. I hate every bit of Joon's story after the main reactor, and Joon's Estate is particularly weak. The final clash between Jormag and Primordus in Dragon Storm was also weak, but that was because it was rushed to focus on EoD. On the whole though the Elder Dragon storyline has been good though.

[vanfrano.1325]

20 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

But I hate what that series turned into after FF10, they butchered it hard.. and everything that made the series great and what made me a fan in the first place was pretty much gutted out, including the appeal of the story, worlds and characters etc.

After FFXI* 😄

[Teratus.2859]

1 hour ago, vanfrano.1325 said:

After FFXI* 😄

For you?

I never played 11 because of the subfee 😛
I don't support mandatory subfee games and online services, I consider them a monumental rip off.

Nothing but a scam to sell people something without actually giving them anything at all.
And when you stop paying them.. you're quite literally left with nothing to show for all the money you spent on it.

A big part of why I have supported Anet for all these years is because they also oppose that business model.

[Kalavier.1097]

20 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

GW as a franchise has great lore and story. Anet knows how to tell a good story. Are there weak spots? Sure, that happens even to master story tellers. I hate every bit of Joon's story after the main reactor, and Joon's Estate is particularly weak. The final clash between Jormag and Primordus in Dragon Storm was also weak, but that was because it was rushed to focus on EoD. On the whole though the Elder Dragon storyline has been good though.

I think the worst parts of Gw2's story come from when people feel the need to attack others for liking it.

But yeah. I agree with this. There are weak spots (May not agree on exactly the same weak spots) and strong spots.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I think the worst parts of Gw2's story come from when people feel the need to attack others for liking it.

But yeah. I agree with this. There are weak spots (May not agree on exactly the same weak spots) and strong spots.

Yeah, I'm sure there are people who love everything about Joon's story, but the story step in her estate was pretty weak to me and wasn't very good storytelling in the end of that step in particular. But to each their own, I'm sure that scene 'spoke' to some people just as much as it put off others.

[Labjax.2465]

If we're comparing stories from MMOs, then GW2's story can't hold a candle to SWTOR's class stories. That game is a hot mess otherwise, but no MMO story I've seen even comes close when compared to its original class narratives. It kinda goes downhill after that, but it was basically like 8 single player RPG stories (complete with the BW morality style dichotomy choices) in one game and millions gone into it. Kinda miffs me to this day that it's not something you can experience as a standalone single player game.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Kalavier.1097]

20 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Yeah, I'm sure there are people who love everything about Joon's story, but the story step in her estate was pretty weak to me and wasn't very good storytelling in the end of that step in particular. But to each their own, I'm sure that scene 'spoke' to some people just as much as it put off others.

The most important thing is that we can hold a civil discussion about what we like and dislike, how things support our views, and respect the other side.

TBH in the past I've had moments where I ceased discussing certain episodes of GW2 because of the sheer hatred and attacks I got over simply... not hating it.

 

5 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

If we're comparing stories from MMOs, then GW2's story can't hold a candle to SWTOR's class stories. That game is a hot mess otherwise, but no MMO story I've seen even comes close when compared to its original class narratives. It kinda goes downhill after that, but it was basically like 8 single player RPG stories (complete with the BW morality style dichotomy choices) in one game and millions gone into it. Kinda miffs me to this day that it's not something you can experience as a standalone single player game.

I'll admit I never got far in TOR, but what I did wasn't... super great IMO. The sith inquisitor who has to take public transport while being apprentice to a very important sith.

The republic trooper who tracks down a squad that goes traitor because they didn't just dump their gear into the lava and make it look like they died... And then the Sith actively having soldiers in the ruins of the jedi temple on Coruscant, just a short trip away from the Senate and nobody even knew they were there. And the sith forces weren't even hiding.

The bounty hunter one honestly would be my favorite, of what I did lol.

But, I have heard that those stories are the best and everything after them just is a steady fall downhill.

[Labjax.2465]

7 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The most important thing is that we can hold a civil discussion about what we like and dislike, how things support our views, and respect the other side.

TBH in the past I've had moments where I ceased discussing certain episodes of GW2 because of the sheer hatred and attacks I got over simply... not hating it.

 

I'll admit I never got far in TOR, but what I did wasn't... super great IMO. The sith inquisitor who has to take public transport while being apprentice to a very important sith.

The republic trooper who tracks down a squad that goes traitor because they didn't just dump their gear into the lava and make it look like they died... And then the Sith actively having soldiers in the ruins of the jedi temple on Coruscant, just a short trip away from the Senate and nobody even knew they were there. And the sith forces weren't even hiding.

The bounty hunter one honestly would be my favorite, of what I did lol.

But, I have heard that those stories are the best and everything after them just is a steady fall downhill.

Lol fair points. Tbh, those are usually some of the least liked of the class stories IME (inquisitor and trooper), along with consular which some people get bored to tears by if they play with the male voice actor. On the flip side, sith warrior is one of the most praised (especially playing as light side) as is imperial agent. And yeah, bounty hunter seems to be pretty well enjoyed, along with the rest of them I didn't name. I personally played sith warrior as both dark side and light side multiple times in that game cause I enjoyed the power fantasy so much (this was before the changes they made this year that made the game way worse tho).