Can we scale back wvw legendary armor requirements?

[Xenesis.6389]

How did my post about giving pve players their own legendary set end up with 2 confused faces.

These forums... 🙄

[Labjax.2465]

2 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

Each time a subset of players haven’t been happy.

 

And they aren’t the WvW primary players.  
 

Focus on improving the rewards in the reward tracks and give more items to make skirmish tickets more useful.

Idk what the % is like, but I'm certain I've seen some complaints about skirmish ticket gain before that relate to someone who mains WvW, but has limited time to play, so I don't think this is entirely true.

That said, I'm all for improving the rewards as you describe. In general, whether someone is a WvW main or not, they shouldn't feel like they are getting mediocre or (after a long enough time) useless rewards for the time spent compared to other play options.

[Ronin.4501]

2 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

How did my post about giving pve players their own legendary set end up with 2 confused faces.

These forums... 🙄

I gave you a "Thanks". But I'm a fellow WvW player. I suspect the "confused" came from those who are not. 😉

 

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

So it seems the only thing to recommend is the ones wanting this faster petition for the open world armors? The hurdle I see in advance is that content is not "endgame" enough, but good luck

[devastoscz.9851]

I've put my time in a game mode that I honestly enjoy, that I had been playing for years; winning and losing fights, laughing and getting angry, in a zerg and roaming. This all started way before we had any sort of legendary availability, any sort of rewards in WvW. In fact, playing WvW effectively would actually cost you gold as a player, not to mention as a commander. Not only gearing up, but siege and upgrades cost gold. Once we got all these new rewards and the possibility of making legendary armor, it was freaking great, but it was never "necessary". I kept playing the game mode that I enjoyed, by the time the Legendary Armory came out, I had 4 legendary sets done and had enough tickets for a 5th. (yes I got refunds, and actually got myself a full set of heavy raid armor from it)

 

If you're an actual WvW player, getting legendary armor is a long term goal that you'll achieve whilst doing something you enjoy. The more time you spend there, the faster you'll earn your armor; said time will feel like an enjoyable investment, not a sunk cost. Yes you'll lose some fights, you'll get ganked some, you'll rage at your guild for not sticking on tag, you'll curse your firebrand for no stab, you'll smack your engineer for not cleansing. But you will never think "Why the kitten am I doing this, the legendary armor is not worth putting up with this BS." Because you're not playing for the armor, you're playing for the game mode.

None of this is a flex btw, it is context and insight for an undeniable fact: WvW legendary armor was designed for WvW players. Not PVE players that don't want to raid.

[Aelio.6390]

2 hours ago, devastoscz.9851 said:

None of this is a flex btw, it is context and insight for an undeniable fact: WvW legendary armor was designed for WvW players. Not PVE players that don't want to raid.

 

I love that part !

I'm a PvE and PvP player but I hate WvW - let's state it here, even more since Anet made the choice to remove the central lake (no more aquatic fights that I like, unique to Gw2) AND to put the Gift of Combat as a *beep* time gated item that forces you to just go there instead of buying it with insignia.

 

I love multiclass, so legendary armor is a super big YES !

 

But now, I look at WvW and I'm like "how can they be this priviledged ?" - This category of player can get EVERYTHING just playing their main loved mode: armor, backpack, trinket.

I am forced to play WvW if I want a weapon ... or worst ... CONFLUX ...

I made the other PvP Trinket and the next month, boom it was replaced with a FREE full PvE one (I threw 350-400 MC at this kitten due to the clover and the prices were high ...)

Is there any plan to give an alternative to Conflux ? To the gift of combat ?

[ArchonWing.9480]

15 minutes ago, Aelio.6390 said:

But now, I look at WvW and I'm like "how can they be this priviledged ?" - This category of player can get EVERYTHING just playing their main loved mode: armor, backpack, trinket.

So how do WvW players get the amulet and earrings from just playing WvW?

  

15 minutes ago, Aelio.6390 said:

I am forced to play WvW if I want a weapon ... or worst ... CONFLUX ...

You can buy gen 1s and gen 3s.. And gen 2s are overpriced.

Edited September 9, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Xenesis.6389]

8 minutes ago, Aelio.6390 said:

But now, I look at WvW and I'm like "how can they be this priviledged ?" - This category of player can get EVERYTHING just playing their main loved mode: armor, backpack, trinket.

We get conflux... which replaces ascended rings... which is like the highest drop rate ascended pieces in the game...

We can't get legendary accessories, have to go pve for it.

We can't get legendary amulet, have to go pve or pvp for it.

 

People come to wvw to get the legendary armor because they don't went to raid so they go to the easier area of wvw, yet they come and complain it takes too long... So they don't want to get the armor in their comfort area that requires some effort, but they want to come complain about changing it in the area they're not comfortable playing in at all....

 

At this point they should have legendaries for all slots in each of the three end game areas. They could easily make duplicate recipes of conflux for the accessories. They could easily make a pve version of the wvw legendary armor in pve open world, they already have collections for aurora, vision, prismatic champion's regalia. As for gift of battle, stated this a few times, make eotm reward tracks 100% more faster than wvw and let them run it in there instead or take it out altogether and get those players out of hairs.

 

This criss crossing areas for items is getting real annoying and really promotes little for players to try other areas of the game.

[ArchonWing.9480]

5 hours ago, Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:

So it seems the only thing to recommend is the ones wanting this faster petition for the open world armors? The hurdle I see in advance is that content is not "endgame" enough, but good luck

I would try and get Anet to push for some way to get them in Strike Missions. They're pushing that hard as the new premier content and a legendary set would make them more appealing as well as giving something unique to EoD.  And EoD is the future of Gw2.

Certainly sounds a lot better than "I am bad at pve so I need to be jealous of WvWeres" which is incredibly silly in many ways, unless you're out of transmutation charges. .

[Endilbiach.4132]

On 9/6/2022 at 5:08 PM, Xenesis.6389 said:

How did my post about giving pve players their own legendary set end up with 2 confused faces.

These forums... 🙄

There are 2 kinds of people that do that, and I know the name of one of them but the last time I said it I got a mark against my account in the forums.  One group of people insist that raid armor is pve armor.  They're wrong of course, raid armor is raid armor, raids may not be against other players but it doesn't make them pve.

The other kind is just your average basic forum troll who actively stalks me and my posts and explodes any time someone mentions anything about alternative methods of acquiring legendary armor.  There are two particularly bad offenders on this matter and I have both of them blocked.

[Strider Pj.2193]

5 hours ago, Aelio.6390 said:

 

I love that part !

I'm a PvE and PvP player but I hate WvW - let's state it here, even more since Anet made the choice to remove the central lake (no more aquatic fights that I like, unique to Gw2) AND to put the Gift of Combat as a *beep* time gated item that forces you to just go there instead of buying it with insignia.

 

I love multiclass, so legendary armor is a super big YES !

 

But now, I look at WvW and I'm like "how can they be this priviledged ?" - This category of player can get EVERYTHING just playing their main loved mode: armor, backpack, trinket.

I am forced to play WvW if I want a weapon ... or worst ... CONFLUX ...

I made the other PvP Trinket and the next month, boom it was replaced with a FREE full PvE one (I threw 350-400 MC at this kitten due to the clover and the prices were high ...)

Is there any plan to give an alternative to Conflux ? To the gift of combat ?

I guess maybe you don’t play as much PvP then?  As PvP has their own armor as well?  So, why does it bother you that the WvW players want to keep their mode’s armor as it was intended?  As a long term reward for that modes players.  
 

Thus why it’s WvW armor, thus why PvP has exclusive armor as well.  
 

I won’t repeat what @Xenesis.6389said about the amulet or the accessories.  

[yoni.7015]

9 hours ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

One group of people insist that raid armor is pve armor.  They're wrong of course, raid armor is raid armor, raids may not be against other players but it doesn't make them pve.

What? Why are raids not PvE? They are of course PvE.
PvE means Player versus Environment, this is what raids are. So yes, raid armor is the PvE armor. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by yoni.7015

[ArchonWing.9480]

See, there's a reason why Anet doesn't want some players having legendary armor. If they can't grasp basic concepts of what they're actually fighting, it's highly likely they won't be able to handle stuff like stat changing and brick their character build even more and start doing negative damage.

I'm not making this up. Even anet knows that your average player does like 1/10th the damage of a decent player: https://www.pcgamesn.com/guild-wars-2/difficulty

Now imagine if they could select even more random garbage. It's actually a way of protecting players from themselves.

But I suppose you can pve to get wvw legendary armor.

Edited September 10, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Labjax.2465]

25 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

See, there's a reason why Anet doesn't want some players having legendary armor. If they can't grasp basic concepts of what they're actually fighting, it's highly likely they won't be able to handle stuff like stat changing and brick their character build even more and start doing negative damage.

I'm not making this up. Even anet knows that your average player does like 1/10th the damage of a decent player: https://www.pcgamesn.com/guild-wars-2/difficulty

Now imagine if they could select even more random garbage. It's actually a way of protecting players from themselves.

But I suppose you can pve to get wvw legendary armor.

Gonna need a tackle box for all that bait.

The reality is the complete opposite to the condescending, elitist way you frame it. People brick their builds because it's so kittening convoluted to get a coherent set of gear, much less experiment and learn anything. Open world PvE legendary armor would mean better players in open world PvE in the long-term. GW2's absolutely bonkers 39 number of diff stat combinations and process you need a lengthy guide for to track down a piece of stat selectable gear for every slot along with mixed messages and misinformation from the community that ranges from saying "just play anything, it doesn't matter" to saying "only a few builds should ever be played" is a miasma of confusing BS and the sooner people can actually try things for themselves without having to jump through a hoop upside down on a tuesday when it's raining, the better.

In no other game in memory, MMO or otherwise, have I encountered a gear system as convoluted as GW2's is in 2022, while it maintains the audacity to have a reputation of being simple/easy gearing because it isn't a gear treadmill. It might have been true that it was simple/easy gearing in 2012. It is long gone from that and the idea of blaming players for not understanding its, at this point, absolute hodgepodge of a gearing system is so completely absurd.

[Xenesis.6389]

5 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Gonna need a tackle box for all that bait.

The reality is the complete opposite to the condescending, elitist way you frame it. People brick their builds because it's so kittening convoluted to get a coherent set of gear, much less experiment and learn anything. Open world PvE legendary armor would mean better players in open world PvE in the long-term. GW2's absolutely bonkers 39 number of diff stat combinations and process you need a lengthy guide for to track down a piece of stat selectable gear for every slot along with mixed messages and misinformation from the community that ranges from saying "just play anything, it doesn't matter" to saying "only a few builds should ever be played" is a miasma of confusing BS and the sooner people can actually try things for themselves without having to jump through a hoop upside down on a tuesday when it's raining, the better.

In no other game in memory, MMO or otherwise, have I encountered a gear system as convoluted as GW2's is in 2022, while it maintains the audacity to have a reputation of being simple/easy gearing because it isn't a gear treadmill. It might have been true that it was simple/easy gearing in 2012. It is long gone from that and the idea of blaming players for not understanding its, at this point, absolute hodgepodge of a gearing system is so completely absurd.

Well they have to have some type of thread mill to keep people playing since there's no vertical progression. We've had ascended level for 10 years now, they can only either offer new stat combinations or different places to acquire them. 

Also there's no real challenge in open world, everything can be zerged down regardless of specs or builds in the group. Not sure what these people need legendaries for, are people switching stats for every other world boss? If anyone is going to take their dps more seriously there, then they're most likely going to move to berserker or marauder or vipers.

The other 36 stat combinations are mostly fluff, or experimental for certain specs in certain roles in certain content.. pretty much not open world but in organized groups. Organized groups of limited size use different gears specs for different encounters like raid bosses, or wvw roaming/small group/zerg/boon balling, classes in wvw need to have access to instantly switch roles. But open world? why are you switching from your dps spec?

 

In any case, the obvious solution to all this is to make open world non cosmetic legendary armor(hey have to sell the raids still somehow) and get those people who hate raiding/wvw/pvping so much out of those areas.

[prototypedragon.1406]

At least legendary armor and trinkets have uses no matter how you obtain them some Legendary weapons don't even do anything in specific game modes 😂🤣😂👌

[Sobx.1758]

On 9/10/2022 at 11:56 AM, Labjax.2465 said:

The reality is the complete opposite to the condescending, elitist way you frame it. People brick their builds because it's so kittening convoluted to get a coherent set of gear, much less experiment and learn anything. Open world PvE legendary armor would mean better players in open world PvE in the long-term.

Claiming that players not willing to play anything over zergy world bosses would somehow "become better in the long run [if they won't have the need to ever get another piece of gear again]" is so obviously wrong that I'll just stop here 🤦‍♂️

On 9/10/2022 at 11:56 AM, Labjax.2465 said:

"only a few builds should ever be played"

Sure. Except the people repeating that are the ones that claim others say it, exactly like you just did it again.

On 9/10/2022 at 11:56 AM, Labjax.2465 said:

the sooner people can actually try things for themselves without having to jump through a hoop upside down on a tuesday when it's raining, the better.

Exotics are perfectly fine and rather easly acquirable to "try out some builds".

Edited September 11, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[ArchonWing.9480]

7 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

In no other game in memory, MMO or otherwise, have I encountered a gear system as convoluted as GW2's is in 2022, while it maintains the audacity to have a reputation of being simple/easy gearing because it isn't a gear treadmill. It might have been true that it was simple/easy gearing in 2012. It is long gone from that and the idea of blaming players for not understanding its, at this point, absolute hodgepodge of a gearing system is so completely absurd.

PvE's been solved long ago.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Berserker

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Viper's

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trailblazer's (outside of raids)

You're welcome.

If that's too hard, bring these classes. If you fail, just bring more.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Firebrand

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mechanist

 

And yes I know you can do stuff like min max stuff like put sinisters when you're capped but you don't need that at all.

And this is exactly why you shouldn't be allowed to change stats freely.

And I am not an elitist at all. In fact for the longest time I ran Cele Firebrand to make t4 fractals/CMs and occasionally raids to make it as braindead as possible so everyone can chill. And I have never kicked anyone that wasn't afk. I do not care if people do great dps. But don't run builds that are about as good as afk.

Sometimes when I'm really bored, I go to HoT skill points with Champions and kill them with my mech so everyone can get easy skill points. One day I probably helped at least 20 people because I was trying something out.

That's just in pve, a mode I spend maybe about 20% of my gw2 time in.

What have you done to make this game better? I can assure you now that there's groups that will take me to do any content in this game and it has nothing to do with skill or gear. Can you say the same?

Edited September 10, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[subversiontwo.7501]

When one thought they had seen it all...

On 9/9/2022 at 10:22 PM, Aelio.6390 said:

But now, I look at WvW and I'm like "how can they be this priviledged ?"

Hahaha 🤣

[Karagee.6830]

On 9/3/2022 at 12:44 AM, Endilbiach.4132 said:

They're a little ridiculous.  Assuming perfect weeks every week it takes 22 weeks to get the set of legendary armor that looks the same as the precursor, 29 weeks to get the fully blinged out version.

Compare that to raid armor, and it takes 6 perfect weeks (less now actually) for the first set of legendary armor and 12 perfect weeks (again, less now) for the next sets.  That's 28 weeks of clearing every raid wing to get every suit of legendary armor, vs 22 to 29 weeks to get a SINGLE suit of wvw legendary armor.

And the Raid armor is supposed to look way cooler and be the 'be all and end all' of armor.  There are plenty of players who want legendary armor but can't do raids, can't drop thousands upon thousands of Mystic coins or whatever they're trading for that now for the credit for the raids, and look at the wvw requirements and realize that it's never happening.  Case in point, the last person I spoke to about this?  Their first suit of leggie armor was from wvw, it took them 18 months.

Literally all I'm asking for here is that we roll back how many skirmish tickets it takes, the current amounts are patently absurd.

If you play wvw then you will get the first set much faster than 18 months even assuming you don't play enough to get diamond every week (which is almost certainly more than 2 hours per day). When you start getting 12, 13 pips per tick it will go much faster. But hey you could invest in a tag, learn to lead and make your life easier by running your own open tag. Yes, PVE is faster and requires a different kind of time commitment (you need to raid all wings, so realistically you will need to raid with a static group). If you do 2 wings per week (reasonable for most people for a night) and get, say, 8 LIs, it will take you 19 weeks. Of course you only need to play 1 night a week instead of several hours per day but in WvW you can afk and you don't need to be on your toes and focus for 2 hours. You can leisurely flip camps while watching tv or something.

PvP will also take longer than 22 weeks for most people btw. It greatly depends on the offseasons.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[ArchonWing.9480]

Also you need to get provsioner tokens. I got them for sigils and they're pretty annoying.

Basically you need to go one of a bunch of various vendors. They take some crap like obsidian shards but it's usually a specific type of rare armor. Problem is that it's time gated per item you can give so you usually have to go to a bunch of vendors. So I ended up parking multiple characters at the vendors with bags full of that crap.

It's annoying enough to make me glad I did WvW for armor.

  

3 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Yes, PVE is faster and requires a different kind of time commitment (you need to raid all wings, so realistically you will need to raid with a static group). If you do 2 wings per week (reasonable for most people for a night) and get, say, 8 LIs, it will take you 19 weeks. Of course you only need to play 1 night a week instead of several hours per day but in WvW you can afk and you don't need to be on your toes and focus for 2 hours. You can leisurely flip camps while watching tv or something.

That is true too. 2 wings were good enough for me, lol. I suppose I could do more if I had them on farm but there's a good reason they're weekly.

6 weeks seems realistic for someone that was already good at raids.

Edited September 11, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Karagee.6830]

7 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Also you need to get provsioner tokens. I got them for sigils and they're pretty annoying.

Basically you need to go one of a bunch of various vendors. They take some crap like obsidian shards but it's usually a specific type of rare armor. Problem is that it's time gated per item you can give so you usually have to go to a bunch of vendors. So I ended up parking multiple characters at the vendors with bags full of that crap.

It's annoying enough to make me glad I did WvW for armor.

  

That is true too. 2 wings were good enough for me, lol. I suppose I could do more if I had them on farm but there's a good reason they're weekly.

6 weeks seems realistic for someone that was already good at raids.

You can easily get around 13 tokens per day at a reasonable cost, if you can craft. Once you grt used to what you need to craft you can make the items you need almost automatically. 

[Gehenna.3625]

On 9/9/2022 at 5:38 PM, Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:

So it seems the only thing to recommend is the ones wanting this faster petition for the open world armors? The hurdle I see in advance is that content is not "endgame" enough, but good luck

 There already is a legendary amulet that is gained in OW and the Skyscale is considered a legendary mount, which is also gained in OW. Vision and Aurora are mostly OW PvE. So I don't agree that OW content is "not endgame enough".

Besides, I don't really understand why OW legendary armor would be a bad thing. WvW armor is about time spent and not about skill or effort. So why could it not be done for OW as well? Some people who raid, play WvW or PvP would cringe at doing a lot of OW stuff, just like OW PvE'rs cringe at doing WvW, PvP or raids. It really makes no difference either way.

Now before anyone starts, I'm fine with getting it with WvW, in fact I already got my first armor set in WvW and got the legendary backpack and am now working on my first Conflux. 

But I do believe that WvW claim tickets should be rewarded more to the front and then taper down to a trickle for mithril and diamond. That way the new players in WvW don't have to spend an inordinate amount of time in WvW to get at least a good amount of tickets, but you still need to get to diamond to get the max available per week. 

So this solution means that it's less discouraging for new players and doesn't make a difference for more seasoned WvW'ers.

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 9/10/2022 at 9:27 AM, Xenesis.6389 said:

Well they have to have some type of thread mill to keep people playing since there's no vertical progression. We've had ascended level for 10 years now, they can only either offer new stat combinations or different places to acquire them. 

Also there's no real challenge in open world, everything can be zerged down regardless of specs or builds in the group. Not sure what these people need legendaries for, are people switching stats for every other world boss? If anyone is going to take their dps more seriously there, then they're most likely going to move to berserker or marauder or vipers.

Ah, and that's where you can't fall for their trick. In EoD, they did introduce challenging world content, and guess who whined about that?  And at least in these parts, there was pretty big overlap. And it was over an even more optional reward-- the turtle mount.

 

Do not believe the myth that gatekeeping and saltiness over failure is something only raiders and competitive mode players do. Open World only players are not some kind of morally superior bunch and many will eat each other if it means even a chance of not getting the shiny.  Though people freaking out over any little inconvenience in Dragonfall or Auric Basin would tell you. Or champ trains. The hardest event in EoD, the Su-Won meta, was reported to have a 60% success rate. Which is hardly bad at all. Granted it was nerfed because of initial design but the complaints persist. (The rewards are mediocre though to me personally)

Anet did invent content that required players to know what they're doing and not be deadweight. For example, for one of the EoD fights, you must hide behind a pillar, or else you flat out get killed. Not downed, the game just kills you and you have to waypoint.

A lot of players thought that was great. I thought it was pretty cool that I actually had to, like, pay attention and would have been a good basis for Open World legendary armor. I feel like Anet was setting that up. Unfortunately, the ridiculous amount of whining over the main meta event just proves that people aren't whining because it's some kind of exclusive hard elitist content but rather because they can't handle content that involves cooperation at all.

And I also think it's clear Anet will not hand legendary armor over. If we look at the legendary OW trinkets, all of them have massive requirements, with the only modest one being amulet and even that requires you to do a jumping puzzle with checkpoints that can't be cheesed easily.

For anyone that doesn't like the kitten awful Icebrood Saga or the mediocre season 2, it's a slog. But you don't see me complaining too much about it. I just don't go for it.

My point is that even if say Anet introduced legendary armor that involved doing EoD metas, that we would still see similar complaints. You're still going to have people coming into content telling everyone that they only want the rewards and don't learn how it's done. And because it seems like Armor revolves around cooperative content (It's an MMO afterall), you can see how this method is doomed to failure.

They can still do WvW armor, because you can exploit the system to leech. However, it is understandable that it should not be considered the norm. It's extremely hard to cater to serious players that want the best rewards, but aren't serious enough to earn them.

In other words, the pitiful behavior exhibited during these metas by some pretty much sunk it if you ask me.

Edited September 11, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Xenesis.6389]

3 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

My point is that even if say Anet introduced legendary armor that involved doing EoD metas, that we would still see similar complaints. You're still going to have people coming into content telling everyone that they only want the rewards and don't learn how it's done. And because it seems like Armor revolves around cooperative content (It's an MMO afterall), you can see how this method is doomed to failure.

They can still do WvW armor, because you can exploit the system to leech. However, it is understandable that it should not be considered the norm.

That's ok at least it would get them out of the wvw section, and they forward their complaints to the general forums and let them eat themselves alive in there.

I disagree with anets current philosophy to bring harder content to open world zones so they can have this huge training ground to shove people into strikes and then raids, I think harder content should always be sectioned off, especially for a game that was built on casuals, and has a large population of casuals.

You can't force people into areas they don't want to do, they will more than likely stop playing. I'm sure they're cheering the strike numbers have gone up with the expansion, never mind it's because they've forced people into one because of the mount, but how many of those will return to keep doing strikes and then raids for legendaries?

At the same time they realize the player skill level is low compared to the content they want to put out, so what do they do? boost a spec so every window licker could play semi afk and get the dps you need to get through the content! You know when you have 9 profession, 36 specs, but 1 spec is taking up over half your raid spots there's a problem there, and at anet glacial half baked update paces of course it won't be addressed for months. What's the point of making harder content only to counter it with a window licker spec....