Remove Mech's Trade-off too

[Shadowmoon.7986]

I want mech to be dumpstered because the precious balance dev was horrible at his job,  constantly buffed the class even when the balance patches were designed fix problems he created for other classes, for example the emergency banner patch.  I want anet to send a message that there is a more serious change in direction in terms of balancing.  Dumpstering cata when less than 1% of the population played it, while constantly  buffing mech so now thay represents 42% of groups show how incompetent he was.  

This is unhealthy representation, in the past anet would dumpster classes over this, like the epi nerfs when scourge stacking got popular.  

[Lynx.9058]

6 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

I want mech to be dumpstered because the precious balance dev was horrible at his job,  constantly buffed the class even when the balance patches were designed fix problems he created for other classes, for example the emergency banner patch.  I want anet to send a message that there is a more serious change in direction in terms of balancing.  Dumpstering cata when less than 1% of the population played it, while constantly  buffing mech so now thay represents 42% of groups show how incompetent he was.  

This is unhealthy representation, in the past anet would dumpster classes over this, like the epi nerfs when scourge stacking got popular.  

no class should be 'dumpstered' in the first place, and asking for that proves that you're letting emotion get in the way of reason.

The fact that you want a class to be made completely useless just to sate your vindictiveness... that's just sad.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

2 hours ago, Lynx.9058 said:

no class should be 'dumpstered' in the first place, and asking for that proves that you're letting emotion get in the way of reason.

The fact that you want a class to be made completely useless just to sate your vindictiveness... that's just sad.

At some point when a class is so toxic to the game, it needs to be smiter's booned. It was designed to be broken, because the dev hated kits on engineer (or any type of weapon swapping in general).  Class diversity is probably in the worst state in the game history post hot. 

[Alcatraznc.3869]

9 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

I want mech to be dumpstered because the precious balance dev was horrible at his job,  constantly buffed the class even when the balance patches were designed fix problems he created for other classes, for example the emergency banner patch.  I want anet to send a message that there is a more serious change in direction in terms of balancing.  Dumpstering cata when less than 1% of the population played it, while constantly  buffing mech so now thay represents 42% of groups show how incompetent he was.  

This is unhealthy representation, in the past anet would dumpster classes over this, like the epi nerfs when scourge stacking got popular.  

 

Ah yes hypocrisy at its peak. Because as we all know, dumpstering a class a lot of people play is fine but dumpstering a class that 1% of the playerbase play is not fine. This is a very logical and big brain way to balance stuff out.

 

And this is why at time, I am glad companies ignore their player suggestion 

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

At some point when a class is so toxic to the game, it needs to be smiter's booned. It was designed to be broken, because the dev hated kits on engineer (or any type of weapon swapping in general).  Class diversity is probably in the worst state in the game history post hot. 

Dumpstering anything, let alone an entire elite specialisation should never be an objective of the balance team. The original boonsmiting was a single skill in a situation where they just couldn't find a way to balance it in PvP... but they left it alone in PvE, and the possibility was always open that if they figured out a way to balance it in PvP, they might bring it back. The closest analogue in GW2 was the 300s traits, and they're (finally) being replaced.

Boonsmiting is a measure taken when something is simply unbalanceable, and I don't think metanist is that. There's a middle point where it's viable, particularly in situations where you really want mechanic-resistant DPS output, without being oppressively dominant. It's too much at the moment, and knowing balance perception inertia, people will probably still think it's unbalanced when it does get there, but I'm fairly confident that such a point exists.

My general observation is that rifle metanist is an opportunity for ArenaNet to decide how much damage they actually want a typical raider to be able to do, calibrate rifle metanist to be around that level, and then bring the more complex builds to a point where the typical player gets around that amount (even if that means that the bench under ideal circumstances is much higher).

[zeyeti.8347]

On 9/19/2022 at 6:09 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

Anet is going down the route of removing trade-offs from elite specs. Mechanist currently has the harshest trade-off in the game. 

If you talk about vindi getting his 2x dodge back , ok . But for the rest "harshest trade off" not at all , a trade off , is something you loose to compensate in another category (less heal - more damage , etc) , while i understand the whole especs traits are around your mech and 0 around your character , what you win is absolutely higher than what you loose, if mech could share quickness instead of alacrity , scrapper , qfb , harbringer and herald are dead.

But your idea of sending the mech into the sky , allowing you to use the toolbelt again is quite a thing , i franckly hope to see that after the nerf for less passiv gameplay , but lets face the fact : who's gonna replace a utility who increase your damage at +10% for some chicky kit. Signet should also be standardised , +180 power , +180 condi damage , instead of +10% damage flat.

Edited September 25, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[phantom.1675]

On 9/19/2022 at 9:08 PM, Atmaweapon.7345 said:

Mechanists aren't topping benchmarks, they're just really high for a low intensity build. Nerfing Mech without bumping up Holo to 38-40k just nerfs Engis overall position in theoretical output compared to other professions.

Not topping benchmarks but topping every realistic encounter for 99.9% of players.

[Sobx.1758]

On 9/19/2022 at 6:09 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

•  
• You give up an entire trainline just for the pet. Very little power in the Mechanist traitline is given to the engineer. 

Yeah, so the solution is to give back the toolbelt skills back to mechanist and take away the mech. Good idea.

 

And OP, I think you've missed this from the patchnotes preview:

Quote

In some cases, these tradeoffs feel natural, like when a reaper loses access to Death Shroud and gains access to Reaper's Shroud

Mechanist lost some toolbelt skills, gained mech and mech skills -> feels natural -> acceptable trade-off 🤷‍♂️

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

I just want Mech dumpstered so I can stop seeing a billion green eyesores everywhere. It's literally one of the most obnoxious color combos possible and it's HUGE. You can't ignore it even if you want to. This and mesmer clone/phantasm spam is probably the most obnoxious thing in any PvE content at the moment, and at least most Mes are playing Virtuoso now so less of that noise.

[LSD.4673]

Elite specs should just be a direct upgrade. Remove all tradeoffs. 

And renove the tradeoffs from dps and survivability from different specs and consolidate them all. 

And allow us to slot both signets and utilities, so we can have both.

[TexZero.7910]

On 9/24/2022 at 8:30 AM, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

I want mech to be dumpstered because the precious balance dev was horrible at his job,  constantly buffed the class even when the balance patches were designed fix problems he created for other classes, for example the emergency banner patch.  I want anet to send a message that there is a more serious change in direction in terms of balancing.  Dumpstering cata when less than 1% of the population played it, while constantly  buffing mech so now thay represents 42% of groups show how incompetent he was.  

This is unhealthy representation, in the past anet would dumpster classes over this, like the epi nerfs when scourge stacking got popular.  

 

On 9/24/2022 at 10:09 PM, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

1. https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity look at the data. Facts do not care about your feeling or fanboying a class.  Now why has mechanist become to popular, well just look at the auto attack benchmarks compared to other classes.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/weyo2r/power_mechanist_auto_attack_benchmarks/

Versus 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/wb6725/comment/iidnyl4/?context=3

When you are doing between 75%-300% more damage of other classes just autoattacking at range that is bad for the game, because why play a class i have to do a rotation just to match the afk damage of mech. This promotes sloth gameplay, and then people wonder why people have trouble doing the dragons end meta.

2. Look at point 1 why it deserves a dumpstering, its not emotional, it is to stop a trend before the game turns into mech wars 2. Personally I would prefer damage to be removed from the mech and auto and added to other weapon skills.  Doing around 20k dps afk is fine, doing 25 to 27k is problematic.  But mech is "meta defining" similar to scouge epi bouncing, so it needs to be dumpstered just like epi was. 

3. I do not know if you are trying to bait me so i get banned about a discord chat log that totally never existed, or you are unaware of this myth. 

Odd your own data says 32% not 42%.

It also doesn't seem to have a breakdown of type of mechanist. Shame that really. Would be nice to know if you actually care about balance.

[Lynx.9058]

13 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I just want Mech dumpstered so I can stop seeing a billion green eyesores everywhere. It's literally one of the most obnoxious color combos possible and it's HUGE. You can't ignore it even if you want to. This and mesmer clone/phantasm spam is probably the most obnoxious thing in any PvE content at the moment, and at least most Mes are playing Virtuoso now so less of that noise.

You're never going to get rid of the mechs, even if they do nerf power mech into the ground you'll still have support mech builds out there.

Get used to it.

[draxynnic.3719]

28 minutes ago, TexZero.7910 said:

 

Odd your own data says 32% not 42%.

It also doesn't seem to have a breakdown of type of mechanist. Shame that really. Would be nice to know if you actually care about balance.

Don't think the system is sensitive enough for that, but it's worth keeping in mind that if literally every alacrity supplier was an alacmech, that'd still only be 20%. Add the assumption that quickness suppliers also represent 20%, and DPS metanists still represent 12/60 = 1/5 of all DPS slots, minimum.

More versatile elite specs will naturally have more representation than those that only have one relevant role, but one third of all raid and strike slots is excessive even with that in mind, especially since there are no monopolies in play apart from a monopoly on having high DPS with a ranged rotation that's about as immune to being disrupted by mechanics as it's possible to be (except projectile hate, I guess, but that's not common).

[TexZero.7910]

3 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Don't think the system is sensitive enough for that, but it's worth keeping in mind that if literally every alacrity supplier was an alacmech, that'd still only be 20%. Add the assumption that quickness suppliers also represent 20%, and DPS metanists still represent 12/60 = 1/5 of all DPS slots, minimum.

More versatile elite specs will naturally have more representation than those that only have one relevant role, but one third of all raid and strike slots is excessive even with that in mind, especially since there are no monopolies in play apart from a monopoly on having high DPS with a ranged rotation that's about as immune to being disrupted by mechanics as it's possible to be (except projectile hate, I guess, but that's not common).

so 2 alac mechs (of either variety) and a dps is 3/10. Now i don't have to be a math major to point out that's 30% representation.

The site used shows represenation at 32%. That put's the over at maybe 4/10 per squad but not more. This is no different from any other era of play when other classes had multiple viable roles.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, TexZero.7910 said:

so 2 alac mechs (of either variety) and a dps is 3/10.

That's not the way it works in practice, though. Alacmirages and alacspectres do see use as well, even if they're not as common. Given that there are not just those, but also alacrigades, also putting their hands up, the assumption that all alac sources will be alacmechs is already problematic.

1 hour ago, TexZero.7910 said:

Now i don't have to be a math major to point out that's 30% representation.

The site used shows represenation at 32%. That put's the over at maybe 4/10 per squad but not more. This is no different from any other era of play when other classes had multiple viable roles.

You're ignoring my point about how two of those slots are also typically reserved for quickness. So it's actually occupying 33/80, or over 40%, of the slots it can possibly fill. Despite there being four other specialisations that are supposed to be able to compete with it in the alacrity role, and basically everything competing for the DPS role. The best interpretation for your side of the argument is that alacmech has a complete monopoly on alac roles and fills 1/5 of all DPS roles despite there being eight other professions, not to mention two other engineer elite specs, competing for the role.

You say it's no different from any other era, but it's record-breaking. No other single elite specialisation has reached 33% representation in 10-man content. Berzerker got to 25% back in the day, which was a case of having a near-guaranteed one in ten for banners as well as being a good DPS choice. Even Firebrand never got much over 20%.

We can do some back-of-the-envelope calculations to estimate what proportion you'd expect just from the versatility angle. Alacrity is ~20% of slots. If we ignore alacbender (I'm not sure that was ever intended to actually be a thing) and alachrono (simply because it was so recently reintroduced), then if the alacrity sources were evenly spread, you'd expect alacmech to be 1/4 of alacrity suppliers, or 5%. They can't provide quickness to the group, so the 20% of slots filled by quickness suppliers doesn't contribute to the metanist's popularity. In terms of DPS roles... calculating every single elite specialisation is complex since some aren't designed for power and some others aren't designed for condi. However, every profession is supposed to have a power build and a condi build, so to simplify the calculation, let's say that if the professions were all evenly balanced, you'd expect engineer on the whole to be 1/9 damage slots, which gives 1/9 times 60% = 6.7%.

So the proportion that can be explained through the metanist's versatility alone is 11.7%, and that's if you assume that every DPS engineer is a mechanist. 

So that 33% is nearly three times what would be expected simply by being versatile, and that's when making simplifications to the calculation that favour the metanist. The rest can only be explained through some combination of being better than the competition, being easier to use than the competition, and/or people just liking the theme more than the others. And I don't think the golemancer concept is so universally loved that the last is a major contributor.

PS Just realised I forgot alacdruid, which would bring the expected proportion of alacmechs if everything was perfectly balanced down to 1/5 of 20% or 4%, and therefore brings the back-of-the-envelope overall proportion down to 10.7%. So the actual observed proportion IS more than three times that expected from a calculation which favours the metanist in at least one significant simplifying assumption.

Edited September 26, 2022 by draxynnic.3719
See postscript

[felix.2386]

i doubt mech players are able to manage these many buttons

[Kayberz.5346]

I really think people are misunderstanding the devs intentions and statements about "removing tradeoffs"

I highly doubt they are trying to remove ALL tradeoffs, rather they are removing arbitrary tradeoffs like passive stat reductions that serve no real purpose other than to make certain specs inconsistently weak/strong in areas that effect their viability and build diversity.

Making the elite specs more uniform in baseline power in order to make it easier to tune individual pieces

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

2 hours ago, Lynx.9058 said:

You're never going to get rid of the mechs, even if they do nerf power mech into the ground you'll still have support mech builds out there.

Get used to it.

A few support mechs is not the same as huge portions of a squad being mechs. 
 

They can get used to not getting any more money out of me then. Their loss I have spent thousands

[Lynx.9058]

1 hour ago, felix.2386 said:

i doubt mech players are able to manage these many buttons

Nice of you to insult everyone who happens to like the spec.

[Alquinon.2957]

3 hours ago, TexZero.7910 said:

The site used shows represenation at 32%. That put's the over at maybe 4/10 per squad but not more. This is no different from any other era of play when other classes had multiple viable roles.

Take another look my guy, in the data no other era had a single spec that had over 30% representation. Right now, we have the greatest number of elite specs available and yet one single spec accounts for 32%.

[Xenesis.6389]

On 9/24/2022 at 9:53 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Dumpstering anything, let alone an entire elite specialisation should never be an objective of the balance team.

And yet they've done it over and over to specs in wvw, but the line gets drawn at engineers apparently. 🙄

[Xenesis.6389]

9 hours ago, LSD.4673 said:

Elite specs should just be a direct upgrade.

Wrong. Elite specs were suppose to be a different way to play professions, not replace them as "upgrades".

[felix.2386]

1 hour ago, Lynx.9058 said:

Nice of you to insult everyone who happens to like the spec.

don't you like the spec because it is half automated?

[Kulvar.1239]

36 minutes ago, Alquinon.2957 said:

Take another look my guy, in the data no other era had a single spec that had over 30% representation. Right now, we have the greatest number of elite specs available and yet one single spec accounts for 32%.

Word of God says 20% of the specs played in raids are Mechanists.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/xhd54d/comment/ip0ltvt/

 

[soul.9651]

14 minutes ago, Alquinon.2957 said:

Take another look my guy, in the data no other era had a single spec that had over 30% representation. Right now, we have the greatest number of elite specs available and yet one single spec accounts for 32%.

Eeeh, you should check numbers at fractals and you will see back at cfb stacking meta fb was like 36%+, i can still rememeber how bad it felt back then seeing one spec beeing stacked while other specs were considered so bad that if u ran anything but cfb you were just trolling.. and now when it got nerfed (at least cfb) people still remember how opressive it was and still hold that hate for a spec in general, and the same with a mech at the current meta. Its just not healthy for the game when one spec can be so opressive. People shouldnt be surprised why so much hate are towards mech rn at forums, people will always hate if they cant play their main specs just because its beeing overshadowed by 1 or a few way better meta picks. In the ideal world all specs should be a worthy meta picks in one situation or the other but reality is almost opposite and its kinda sad because i think you cant rly solve this problem, there will always be better and worse specs and hate from one or the other side of people playing different specs.. but who knows, maybe anet will find the way so eveyone is finally happy what ever they play in this game(which i doubt would ever happen)