Should shatters deal damage?

[ascii.1369]

So before we all get our panties in a twist, I would encourage you to actually read till the end. If by then you still think it's a kitten idea you're welcome to hate on it.

 

What prompted me to start this topic, is that as a PvP Mesmer player I've long been annoyed by the fact that Mesmer feels a bit gimmicky. What I would like to see, is Mesmer be a bit more consistent in it's impact and less reliant on hitting one specific ability. For the PvE croud, the last paragraph adresses potential concerns in that area. So now I'm putting it to you, the larger Mesmer community, to see what you think.

 

To make Mesmer less gimmicky, in my opinion its damage needs to shift away from the huge burst shatters provide and more towards consistent damage from weapon skills. So lets talk about the connection between low damage on weapon skills and the question of whether or not shatters should be damaging abilities. The issue is, that any buff to the damage of weapon skills will result in ridiculous oneshot builds like we had in the past. That's because shatters have such insane burst damage that any other damage source for Mesmer needs to stay under a certain threshold. Otherwise the combination leads to instant deletions from stealth. Then why not nerf shatter damage you might ask. The issue there is that shatter effects need to be better then keeping your three clones. As a result shatter damage can't be lowered too much, since you would just keep the clones and never shatter. So since shatter damage can't be nerfed, but weapon skills can't be buffed without nerfing it, what's the solution? We can either leave things as they are, which leaves Mesmer in a somewhat gimmicky state on the threshold between oneshot and useless. Or we can rework shatter 1 and 2 into utility skills similar to 3-5. I'm not going to propose utility shatters in detail here, since I don't want the discussion to be side tracked by whether my specific sugesstions are good or not. However, I think the game has more than enough cool mechanics to make them usefull, or we/they could come up with something entirely new, just let your imagination run wild.

 

The point is, with the oneshot issue off the table, by removing any meaningfull damage from shatters, weapon skills could be buffed to feel much more impactfull. In PvE nothing much would change, since dps is just a matter of tuning. Weapon numbers woul just have to be tuned to get to similar overall dps as Mesmer has right now. While in PvP I think it would lead to a much less gimmicky playstyle, with much more consistent pressure and less burst potential.

[Ashen.2907]

I read it all of the way through and still don't like the idea. I am for more unique playstyle elements, class defining, not less. 

 

IMO, if significant utility replaced the damage on shatter one and two we would likely see no significant damage added to the weapon skills because the class would then be classified as support or utility, not DPS, by the balance team.

[ascii.1369]

1 hour ago, Ashen.2907 said:

IMO, if significant utility replaced the damage on shatter one and two we would likely see no significant damage added to the weapon skills because the class would then be classified as support or utility, not DPS, by the balance team.

I mean sure, maybe, in which case I would hate the idea too. But the question is, would it be good to implement it, not would it be kitten if we implement something else. Giving compensatory damage on weapons is the whole point. And I don't think it would be less "class defining", the abilitys would remain, just the effect would be different.

[mungozen.2379]

‘Shatters are a gimmick that need to have damage removed so they aren’t a gimmick’

Can you expand on why you think shatters are a gimmick and what you would do to update them to make them not a gimmick? 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Mungo Zen.9364

[Revalent.4205]

Agree with TS. Rely on stupid clones not good idea. In pvp they usually don’t even get to the target, cause of tons of aoe damage and walls/trees. It’s quite annoying.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

So will you add 4k+ damage to each weapon skill to compensate? 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[viquing.8254]

Considering the full shatter orientation destroyed at least 3 mains differents way to play mesmers since 2012. (and many minors.)

I will always promote alternative to not being pigeon holded in a mechanics where main ressources has to be spammed because of how long illusions lives.

If tomorrow they put a GM traits : nerf all shatter damage by promoting other sources I'm for.

But today it's nearly impossible because of their long term view to remove all that is not around shatter.

Mean when I started mesmer the shatter mechanics was just ~30% of how mesmer can play and there were plenty of builds in WvW/PvP with many theorycrafting productions.

Maybe one day a dev will open his eyes that shatter limit gameplay diversity.

[Salt Mode.3780]

If they nerf shatter then they will have to revert how phantasms work which they aren't. The days where Mesmer had a phantasm build.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Zaret.1450]

If i may say, maybe youre not fit to play mesmer, let me explain, your point is that mesmer is gimmicky, and its weapons arent as reliable as other classes.
Mesmer weapons overall have  huge "suport" or utility weight, be it cc, evades, block, shadowsteps, and dont forget mesmer has blink, mass invisibility, portal, and clones.

What i mean is, mesmer is probably the most gimmicky class, it has tons of utility and tricks.

In wvw you see many mesmers playing invisible, blinking, portaling, and hunting you down to oneshot, like a thief, but diferent too.

If you took out mesmer shatter dmg, and tried to give dmg to weapons... well gs would be a monster, and i guess many weapons would just loose their utility, while shatters would just... what? make all cc? distorsion? a bubble? but you already have all that with skills and weapons.

If you prefer an agressive, frontal dueling fighter, with weapons that hit hard... maybe a warrior or something else would be better.

 

[viquing.8254]

33 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

What i mean is, mesmer is probably the most gimmicky class, it has tons of utility and tricks.

Correction : mesmer was the most gimmicky class.

[ascii.1369]

Given the responses I might not have clearly communicated what I mean by gimmicky and what part of Mesmer I think is gimmicky.

 

What I wasn't saying is that shatters by design are gimmicky or that I dislike Mesmers focus on certain tricks compared to other more straight forward professions. My issue is specifically with how Mesmer delivers damage. A huge chunk of Mesmers damage is hidden behind one of two buttons (f1/f2) which makes it very bursty. While bursting someone down quickly can feel exhilarating from time to time, it's only a viable playstyle up to a certain level. Decent players know how Mesmer works and how to use their dodge button, which makes Mesmer burst more of a gimmick, rather than a reliable way to deal damage. And before people inevitably come out of the woodwork saying it's a learn to play issue, it's not like I'm the first or only one to notice this issue.

 

The reason I proposed this specific solution is because in my opinion we have a design issue on our hands not a balance issue. As described in the op, keeping f1/f2 as damage abilities but nerfing them isn't much of an option, while buffing other sources without nerfing them will lead us back to oneshots from stealth.

 

Lastly, there seems to be quite a bit of confusion around the suggestion that to compensate for this change, weapon skill damage would need to be buffed accordingly. Yes, if ANet would remove damage from shatters but not compensate us appropriately, by buffing other damage sources it would suck. Not sure why we're talking about this, nobody suggested that's what they should do. The suggested change would leave Mesmer with the same damage it has now, just spread out over its weapon skills instead of hidden behind a single button.

[Ashen.2907]

On 10/9/2022 at 1:36 PM, ascii.1369 said:

I mean sure, maybe, in which case I would hate the idea too. But the question is, would it be good to implement it, not would it be kitten if we implement something else. Giving compensatory damage on weapons is the whole point. And I don't think it would be less "class defining", the abilitys would remain, just the effect would be different.

As I said, I think it would be bad to implement, for the reasons previously stated. 

As to, "class defining," how a character does damage is a huge part of that IMO. I know that I would retire my mesmer if the original idea were implemented.

[HowlKamui.5120]

For me, clones are a huge part of why I like the Mesmer. Moving away from it does not make sense thematically. 

Mesmers are supposed to be gimmicky tricksters. If you don't like that archetype and would prefer more direct damage, you have the Virtuoso (who is not reliant on clones). 

If you'd prefer more direct damage while still being stealthy/slippery, you have thieves. 

[viquing.8254]

It's not we don't like, it's that we go from many differents ways to play mesmer to one way.

Juste that.

Why mesmer should be pigeon holded into monogameplay while past proves that was possible to accuentate some aspects.

Monoshatter gameplay players can play it if they want, people who want theorycraft and changes gameplay can if they want, all happy.

Mean look at the post on archive forum listing all builds and look at now...

Edited October 11, 2022 by viquing.8254

[Tseison.4659]

Not that shatters and our mechanic will ever change because it’s obviously too late now. But to give my two cents, I personally don’t like that the Mesmer is so heavily tied to clones and for a profession that’s been known for disruptions, hexes, literally affecting reality, they should’ve worked with something along those lines?
 

The clones and phantasms could have very well been shoved into the Mirage elite spec since I feel that’s the perfect spec for deception, misdirection, confusion etc… Virtuoso, as nice as it is sometimes, I think the “Psionic” archetype is misused here and should’ve been the Mesmers core type since that is what they practise and Psionics branch off into many different fields.

 

At the end of the day, we work with what we’re given and since Anet is in such a big rush to come out with another expansion; I’m hoping perhaps they take their time with the future elite spec, try to move away from clones again and maybe create a new tree system.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

This would have made more sense on Mirage which has ambushes to do damage

[Moradorin.6217]

2 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

This would have made more sense on Mirage which has ambushes to do damage

Right it might work for Mirage in theory, but it seems counter productive to talk about things like removing damage from shatters if it only applies to one spec because Anet said they are getting away from giving the specs trade-offs and are supposed to be working on removing the old ones they have added. Like, for instance, Mirage is due to get its 2nd dodge back, even tho some ppl try to say no it cannot happen. I duno what will happen, but if Anet continues on the path they are on now it should return and Chrono and Virt have all the Shatters + and extra one so it would make zero sense to make that a new unique trade-off for Mirage. Again, no idea what till happen. Just saying...

 

IMO the inescapable fact for Mirage is that the removal of a dodge was a desperate act that was not well planned out or executed, and ultimately it is a failure. Furthermore, the balance team with CMC at its lead has now made a commitment to remove trade-offs and ALSO to give each spec a consisten feel between modes, meaning if they change it for PvP/WvW Mirage its gona also need to change for PvE Mirage. However, PvE Mirage is widely used so any major change to its function will be deeply felt by the player base. So in the end if they do some strange stuff with Mirage make it worse to play due to needing even more setup with F5 to get damage along w clones and energy that just sounds horrible and sounds like no one would play it in all 3 modes then. If that is the goal than its prob a good idea. Otherwise I would suggest adding some odd extra/new Mirror function is prob a good solition.

 

I think at present at that Mirage needs is its 2nd dodge back and its fine in all 3 modes. I think people gripe about non-issues over Mirage because people like not needing to deal with many Mesmers and esepcially Mesmers with 3 clones OMG the horror for them. Right?

Edited October 11, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[Tseison.4659]

Come to think about it, since Chrono and Virt now have Distortion with a total of 5 shatters, leaving Mirage with the same core shatters, they should probably create a F5 skill for Mirage. Not sure what that would be though. 

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Was watching my old mirage montages on YT when it has 2 dodges and Axe's strike damage wasnt nerfed. I miss it. If they brought the 2nd dodge back id bring it back in WvW in a heartbeat...even if it is inferior.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

14 hours ago, Tseison.4659 said:

Come to think about it, since Chrono and Virt now have Distortion with a total of 5 shatters, leaving Mirage with the same core shatters, they should probably create a F5 skill for Mirage. Not sure what that would be though. 

What about an F5 on core? No? Anyone? Just me?

Edited October 12, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Jimbru.6014]

Shatters should not just do damage, they should do SIGNIFICANT damage, comparable to a warrior's burst. They should be something enemies fear.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Jimbru.6014

[Zaret.1450]

Theyre the core mecanic and the defining playstile mecanic that makes mesmer work, weapons on mesmer coves a huge amount of purposes, so making weapons be pure dmg and deleting shatters dmg wouldnt improve mesmer in any significant way and make it more plain, so i dont think its a good idea

[dead.7638]

It’s kinda moot for me as I already get better dps out of gs/sword skills from phantasms  then my shatters.   The inconsistent dps from shatters is because they are too animated for someone with a iq that recognizes and can simple dodge your burst.   I mean if you see 2-3 illusions appear from no where… well you just dodge and you literally take 0 dmg.   The time needed to “reload” clones or blades is also a straight forward mechanic that takes a bit of time from one burst to the next that is also easily avoidable, cause everyone but mirage has two dodges.   Mesmer needs higher amounts and duration of boons.   As well as higher power and ferocity added from trait lines.   Condition builds are in a good spot, but again like you said Mesmer very gimmicky and will hit you with it all at once and maybe 2 remove conditions will save you.   Making it rather easy to counter.   For me Mesmer dps is just overall low compared to many specs and other specs do it with half the effort.   Mechanists and vindicator are perfect examples of this.   Their class is so easily played that bis becomes things like superspeed and kitting mechanics that run over 90% of the game.   And maybe just maybe, Mesmer is actually balanced and other classes are just op atm making it feel 1000% worse.

Edited October 23, 2022 by dead.7638

[Salt Mode.3780]

To be honest I don't mind that majority of Mesmer's damage is on Shatters, this is what made Mesmers unique in the first place. However the reason why it feels shittier is because they kept nerfing the HP on clones making them weaker and weaker. Back in core days your clones could tank several hits with mobs and not die. Another thing I wish they undo is the phantasm changes, I don't mind the damage they dish out now but I missed the days where you can shatter your phantasms. There used to be so much Mesmer builds that werent focused on shatters, whether it be a full phantasm build, glamour build, or even the most infamous blackwater build where your clones did condition when it dies. 

[Kulvar.1239]

On 10/15/2022 at 5:24 AM, Jimbru.6014 said:

Shatters should not just do damage, they should do SIGNIFICANT damage, comparable to a warrior's burst. They should be something enemies fear.

Especially because shatters are included in Mesmer balance as the DPS utility skills are intentionally doing lower damage when you compare with other DPS utility skills like Purging Flames or Procession of Blades...

  

On 10/11/2022 at 7:44 PM, Tseison.4659 said:

Come to think about it, since Chrono and Virt now have Distortion with a total of 5 shatters, leaving Mirage with the same core shatters, they should probably create a F5 skill for Mirage. Not sure what that would be though. 

Losing Distortion was the Chronomancer/Virtuoso "drawback" ANet initially wanted for elite specialization.

Mirage always had access to Distortion as it was not its drawback to lose it. Its drawback is the loss of the second doge and that's what need to change.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Kulvar.1239