GW2's biggest flaw

[Ashen.2907]

34 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Untrue. It may seem so on the surface, but only when you forget that all support slots are double role (at least, can be triple if they're tanking for example). If you get a HMech, you have to get a dps quick for the same subsquad. If you get a healbrand however, you have to get an alacdps for the second slot. As such, what you need can change depending on what you have already got. Not to mention at least a half of the encounters requires unique roles (one or two tanks, kiters, pushers, greens at Dhuum, etc) or has some roles that aren't necessary, but people like to have them (blood scourges at boneskinner are very popular, for example). Some of those roles (like cannons at Sabetha, or mushrooms at Sloth) can usually be assigned ad-hoc, but for some (like kiters) you'd really want people with proper builds (and proper experience in that role). Automated LFG just can't really cover all of that.

I didnt say support slots. I described the components. I PUG dozens of times per week and those 4 elements are what is requested. Sure someone may fulfill more than one, QuickHeals being a common one....but that just means that two of the roles I mentioned are being fulfilled by one person, not that the 4 mentioned roles are not the common elements.

I am not advocating for an automated LFG system, and dont particularly care for the idea, but a system where individuals have check boxes for those four roles to be marked when queueing could work by allowing an individual to check both quickness and heals, or Alac and Heals, or DPS and Quickness, or just DPS, etc could be made to work.

At that point the group maker selects people in queue to fulfill the 2 heals, 2 alac, and 2 quickness. If this is accomplished via 4 characters then it adds 6 DPS. If it takes 6 characters to fulfill the support roles then it adds 4 DPS. Or something in between.

Or the roles could be narrowed even further to: Alac/Heals, Quick/Heals, DPS. 

All of this is too cookie cutter for my taste, but it could work.

[Einsof.1457]

Here we go again. 

[Crono.4197]

Guild Wars 2's biggest flaw is that it has people that complain about anything and everything and cannot accept that each game has its own way to work and cannot satisfy everyone.

[Labjax.2465]

2 hours ago, Crono.4197 said:

Guild Wars 2's biggest flaw is that it has people that complain about anything and everything and cannot accept that each game has its own way to work and cannot satisfy everyone.

The LFG doesn't work very well though... many people already organize outside of it for the harder content. Those who try to use it for harder content complain frequently about players who don't listen to their role request jargon, or don't listen to what they were asking for in general. Another complaint is squad merges and groups being taken over.

There is choosing to design a game differently and then there is an open-ended tool having problems with effectiveness for how it gets used. They are not the same thing. GW2 is not suddenly going to become WoW if they try to make LFG more effective for how people already use it. 😑

[Sobx.1758]

Informing people what you're looking for is not begging. And not a big problem tbh.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Rauderi.8706]

And then the devs some out and say the roles are:

Damage

Healing

Boon Support

 

Good luck getting those queues!

 

 

[Doggie.3184]

16 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

How do you even enforce it? The thing with other MMO is that if you sign up with as a tank. You will have all the tools to at least tank, might not be the best tank in the world but you will have defensive cooldowns, taunts etc, things that you need to do your tank job. You can't really force that in GW2. How can you be sure the quickness sign up has enough tools and gear to provide quickness? Do you just wing it? Do you set some hard requirement like 50% boon duration before you can sign up as quickness as well as have the relevant traits ticked?

 

By the way people have discussed the topic before. This has always been the main issue. How do you properly design an automatic LFG that actually works in this game. Because otherwise you are going to end up with the public LFG in IBS strikes which has never worked since there is no enforcement at all.

That's Anet's job to figure out if they want to. They created the mess of adding a larger version of the Holy Trinity to a game that originally didn't want one so they should finally just commit to it and add more support for the system and make it clearer. I don't believe there're even any tutorials for new players to make them aware this game has roles.

Most of the time a single trait determines if a build is Alacrity or Quickness. They'll have to design a way to track it or just rely on people to not lie like we already do now and get kicked if they do. Even just having a role icon next to someones name that's manually set by the player would help make party organization easier if they wanna do something fast and simple. As of now people join and say their role/s they have available and get kicked if it's not needed depending on how ravenous the leader is. Then commanders have to write what role people are on a txt/paper in case someone leaves without reminding people what their role was to be replaced.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Doggie.3184

[Warscythes.9307]

2 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

That's Anet's job to figure out if they want to. They created the mess of adding a larger version of the Holy Trinity to a game that originally didn't want one so they should finally just commit to it and add more support for the system and make it clearer. I don't believe there're even any tutorials for new players to make them aware this game has roles.

Most of the time a single trait determines if a build is Alacrity or Quickness. They'll have to design a way to track it or just rely on people to not lie like we already do now and get kicked if they do. Even just having a role icon next to someones name that's manually set by the player would help make party organization easier if they wanna do something fast and simple. As of now people join and say their role/s they have available and get kicked if it's not needed depending on how ravenous the leader is. Then commanders have to write what role people are on a txt/paper in case someone leaves without reminding people what their role was to be replaced.

I am telling you there isn't a good way. I can think of some ways, but none of them is good. Anet will be even more limited because they are constraint by design while people like us can just free think about it. For example in your trait design where if they tick X trait then they can queue. But what about boon duration? What if the balance changes so you don't need that trait or you need an additional trait? What about dps? Do you enforce XYZ stats for them to join? Check for dps traits? Because bad dps build is just as prevalent as bad boon builds if not worse. They will basically have to track every single time any balance change happens. If you are too lenient, you run into the situation with public LFG in IBS where you know it has literally never worked. 

I think the first thing they need to do is make boon gear much easier to obtain, things such as ritualist, diviner etc. At least the exotic version, the ascended can be requiring some grind. Once people can actually pick up a full set of gear of exotics easily for the build, it should fix some of the issues.

Also the commander just drag the ala/quick to a separate sub to figure out who is doing what. and if people leave these days they tpye -dps or -quick. 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Barraind.7324]

19 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

They're also not relevant everywhere, many areas of the game prioritise other things. For example there's 1 raid where ...

 

I keep asking anyone who says "the lfg system is easy to fix" to even give me a rough idea of how you would make it work for wing 6.  If it can work there, it can get close to working most anywhere, but, to no real surprise, nobody's been able to do that one, and the conversation generally ends there with "BUT ITS ANETS JOB NOT MINE".  Well, Bob, clearly you think you know how to do it...

[Labjax.2465]

57 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

I am telling you there isn't a good way. I can think of some ways, but none of them is good. Anet will be even more limited because they are constraint by design while people like us can just free think about it. For example in your trait design where if they tick X trait then they can queue. But what about boon duration? What if the balance changes so you don't need that trait or you need an additional trait? What about dps? Do you enforce XYZ stats for them to join? Check for dps traits? Because bad dps build is just as prevalent as bad boon builds if not worse. They will basically have to track every single time any balance change happens. If you are too lenient, you run into the situation with public LFG in IBS where you know it has literally never worked. 

I think the first thing they need to do is make boon gear much easier to obtain, things such as ritualist, diviner etc. At least the exotic version, the ascended can be requiring some grind. Once people can actually pick up a full set of gear of exotics easily for the build, it should fix some of the issues.

Also the commander just drag the ala/quick to a separate sub to figure out who is doing what. and if people leave these days they tpye -dps or -quick. 

The thought I've had in the past is crowdsource/integrate community concepts into it (with some vetting so troll stuff doesn't get through). What I visualize atm is something along the lines of "tags" for roles that come with info about them, maybe suggested builds/gear too. So you start a group and if you want specific roles filled, you pick X number for given tags or generic if you don't care about roles. Players joining encounter tags they are expected to match and info on ways they might be expected to fill them. That's just rough outline of how I'm imagining it, I would put more thought in if I was trying to do a design doc or some such.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

GW2's biggest flaw is that people complain about smaller things like it's the biggest flaw of the game.

Wait...

[JPUlisses.8756]

LMAO "ROLES"

Truth:
ALAC
QUICKNESS
DPS

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

38 minutes ago, JPUlisses.8756 said:

LMAO "ROLES"

Truth:
ALAC
QUICKNESS
DPS

And heal, and tank, and kite, and push and other encounter specific roles.

[Bakeneko.5826]

47 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

And heal, and tank, and kite, and push and other encounter specific roles.

healtank, qtank, push is covered by support class, etc., etc. just because someone has extra role to do, doesn't they they don't have primary role.

[Bladestrom.6425]

21 hours ago, Gwynnion.7364 said:

This.  I wish people would just get over roles as being the end-all, be-all of game design.

i Agree, aside from raids which is also a terribly dated concept, Anet has very successfully shown that hybrid builds works, and opens the door for huge build variety which is ultimately much more fun.

[Biziut.3594]

4 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

healtank, qtank, push is covered by support class, etc., etc. just because someone has extra role to do, doesn't they they don't have primary role.

Than gz with figuring out who will do encpunter specific mechanics when all you will get will be this...

5 hours ago, JPUlisses.8756 said:

LMAO "ROLES"

Truth:
ALAC
QUICKNESS
DPS

W7: 

- ok finally we have 6 dps. Who is going to do pylons?

- (silence)

- well... kitten.

W1: 

- Great! Sabetha! Who will do cannons?

- (silence)

- Kitten! Not again.

So as you can see dear, Matthew had probably some other thing in mind, coz there are way more roles than you are aware of and those not only would be hard (if not impossible) to fit into auto LFG, but also pretty pointless since LFG we have now works perfectly fine when it comes to creating, and customising groups.

Edit: also of course push, tank, ect. will have to do something else as well. But remember we are talking bout auto LFG. So Tank, push and the rest of the roles will have to be specified or you will end up with support that can't do this additional roles.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Biziut.3594

[DanAlcedo.3281]

"Make every mmo like WoW" Post number 10000002

 

[Gehenna.3625]

On 10/28/2022 at 3:32 AM, KingJake.6529 said:

The lfg has been up for a big rework since forever.

Sounds just like WvW....wait a minute... 😮

[Amaranthe.3578]

On 10/28/2022 at 6:44 PM, Sarius.9285 said:

yea the LFG is totally amazing and there's no need to improve it...../s

That will not be an improvement, I saw this crap in my years of playing WoW and it doesn't help

[Labjax.2465]

9 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

"Make every mmo like WoW" Post number 10000002

 

There are more MMOs than GW2 and WoW.

[Doggie.3184]

I think we have a lot of people in denial. It's a pure fact that we have roles now similar to the Holy Trinity and many groups won't let you in if they don't want you as "DPS" because they want Alac/Quickness/Healer

[Labjax.2465]

19 minutes ago, Doggie.3184 said:

I think we have a lot of people in denial. It's a pure fact that we have roles now similar to the Holy Trinity and many groups won't let you in if they don't want you as "DPS" because they want Alac/Quickness/Healer

FWIW, for people who are afraid of changes here, I doubt the current team would do anything drastic with the LFG tool, let alone the kind of revamp that would prevent people from using it in similar ways to how they have in the past. This team had a steam launch and did minor tweaks to the new player experience with extensive A/B testing for some of it; it's not the same philosophy that did the NPE back in the day, that is for sure.

[Bladestrom.6425]

4 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

I think we have a lot of people in denial. It's a pure fact that we have roles now similar to the Holy Trinity and many groups won't let you in if they don't want you as "DPS" because they want Alac/Quickness/Healer

The key word here is similar, which is the whole point of non-trinity, many hybrid builds that can fill many roles, and often at the same time. For e.g in my favourite hybrid build  (dps/buff/heal mix) I don't use alac, but I can switch it on to satisfy a group need .  Most definitely not  the repressive dull Trinity which is frankly outdated due to its simplistic nature.

Meat shield + Healer + Meter warrior; who the hell would ever want that in this day and age.

Edited October 30, 2022 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Astralporing.1957]

On 10/29/2022 at 12:56 PM, Bakeneko.5826 said:

healtank, qtank, push is covered by support class, etc., etc. just because someone has extra role to do, doesn't they they don't have primary role.

Good luck then getting a pusher instead of handkiter. I'm sure it's gonna work just fiiine.

[Sobx.1758]

8 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

FWIW, for people who are afraid of changes here, I doubt the current team would do anything drastic with the LFG tool, let alone the kind of revamp that would prevent people from using it in similar ways to how they have in the past. This team had a steam launch and did minor tweaks to the new player experience with extensive A/B testing for some of it; it's not the same philosophy that did the NPE back in the day, that is for sure.

Yeah, they wouldn't do anything drastic, if anything the ""new lfg"" would still simply remain being based on input of each individual player so... just like it is now. People write what they need, other players read (hopefully) the description and join if they can fill the role. Which is why some extensive change isn't really needed here (and especially the attempt to automate the whole process, which just won't reasonably happen here).

Edited October 30, 2022 by Sobx.1758