Calling it out now - Patch results prediction

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,

Just a reminder to keep it civil and avoid being rude to other players. I've removed some posts.

Regards.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

The main takeaway is the S/F Cata will definitely still be busted, as the mechanics that allow it to be busted will still be in place. It will still have tons of stab and blocks and invluns and boonspam and projectile denial and mobility that normally is only supposed to exist on a melee tank spec, as a RANGED ASSASSIN spec. And will thus continue to overperform as any half decent Cata will still be able to endlessly kite and avoid damage while at the same time dealing tons of ranged AoE damage for free. People complain about how hard it is to kill a Spellbreaker or Vindicator, but imagine if those two specs had superspeed and could deal all their damage as ranged AoE and instant casts instead of having their damage locked to slow animation melee abilities OH WAIT we don't have to imagine this because it's already in the game and it's called s/f Cata and it is just as gamebreaking as what I just described sounds because that's literally what it is.

The basic problem here is anet wants to nerf its numbers while leaving the mechanics in place, failing to understand that the only way to give a ranged assassin the same mechanics as a tank spec is to nerf its numbers to the ground to the point where it does zero damage and is thus no longer a ranged assassin.

Anet will HAVE to give cata some kind of mechanical weakness, such as completely removing stability from the spec, or else this thing is going to be breaking the meta for at least a full year. When you see a spec winning the mAT with a fivestack, that is not a call for a soft numbers nerf. That is a sign that a spec is completely and unquestioningly broken and in need of serious hard mechanical adjustments.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Master Ketsu.4569

[Guizao.4167]

1. Dodge, kite, read the player.
2. Run either dedicated power/condi build. Dodge dagger/GS F1. They're extremely predictable.
3. Yes for some specs, no to others.
4. Can work, but it needs proper skill, something that most players don't have.
5. Maybe.
6. Untamed deserves this. Too cheap.
7. Yes.
8. Yes, unfortunately.
9. Yes, unfortunately.

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

11 hours ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

the only way to give a ranged assassin the same mechanics as a tank spec is to nerf its numbers to the ground to the point where it does zero damage and is thus no longer a ranged assassin

Oh you mean like what they do to Ranger and every other actual projectile based class?

Yeah, hilarious how the one that uses non-projectile channels that is virtually invulnerable, is the one that doesn't get this treatment.

Makes sense.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Stand The Wall.6987]

On 2/11/2023 at 5:45 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Bro that's 9x party aegis per 60 intervals

dude what are you talking about, no mesmer is going to spam their defensives for party aegis cuz they'll die instantly

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

11 hours ago, Guizao.4167 said:

1. Dodge, kite, read the player.

Well that's the thing though, it doesn't matter vs. Cata. Current Cata is actually so overpowered that normal counterplay doesn't matter. There isn't time for it. If you don't hard pressure the Cata with massive amounts of consistent DPS pressure that doesn't relent even for a second, you'll never burn through its defensive CDs to create an opening for kill threat. Trying to dodge, kite, read what the Ele is doing and play wisely with your CDs is simply not an option. All you can do is wait for a situation where a team mate can help you + the Cata.

Cata isn't just overperforming, it's in an entirely different league of performance than other classes.

11 hours ago, Guizao.4167 said:

2. Run either dedicated power/condi build. Dodge dagger/GS F1. They're extremely predictable

Again the problem is that they are so strong right now, that there really isn't counterplay in the aspect that it doesn't matter if Spellbreakers play predictably. They have so much CC & DPS and sheer sustain that they can predictably walk into your face spamming skills and everything they do is on such a low ICD that they will eventually overpower the CDs of other classes and win, as they outsustain them while doing it.

Outplaying a good Spellbreaker is very difficult to do right now and it's generally something that you will lose the node trying to do because you can't stand on the node with the Spellbreaker. Everything about its design is really really overly bully for the conquest game mode. I often wonder if Full Counter should be counted as an invuln and make them lose node cap progress each time they use it. I'm not saying this is the best idea, but it would be one way of going about it.

11 hours ago, Guizao.4167 said:

6. Untamed deserves this. Too cheap.

I don't feel it needed the tele-burst play to be removed due to animation times.

All it needed was for Unnatural Traversal to lose the 50% CD adjustment for striking. That 50% CD thing was making UT always on a 20s CD which had too much synergy with the CDs of pet swap for pet strikes and Maul > Hilt Bash > Maul. Without that 50% CD thing, UT would always be on a 40s CD and that would have been enough of a nerf.

Furthermore, they missed other things that REALLY needed attention, like Nature's Binding which is so cheap vs. builds/classes that have little to no access to Stability.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

7 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

dude what are you talking about, no mesmer is going to spam their defensives for party aegis cuz they'll die instantly

Obviously.

But of course my comment was referring to how Mesmers will be using those manipulation skills virtually off CD for themselves, like the heal utility - arcane thievery - blink - mass invis. These are skills that get used off of CD, all the time. In that case, they're throwing around 9x party Aegis per 60s intervals.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Waffles.5632]

8 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 I often wonder if Full Counter should be counted as an invuln and make them lose node cap progress each time they use it. I'm not saying this is the best idea, but it would be one way of going about it.

 

FC is effectively an invul AFAIK so I agree with this change too. I think it would go a long way into making SB's think more when they use FC, as opposed to now where they just spam it more or less, especially when side-noding.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Obviously.

But of course my comment was referring to how Mesmers will be using those manipulation skills virtually off CD for themselves, like the heal utility - arcane thievery - blink - mass invis. These are skills that get used off of CD, all the time. In that case, they're throwing around 9x party Aegis per 60s intervals.

ok... but that doesn't really mean anything unless aegis blocks something important

[Waffles.5632]

I feel there's a plethora of multi hit attacks now, alongside pulsing AOE's. Idk how aegis interacts with a single attack that hits multiple times (like mesmer GS auto for example) but it definitely doesn't feel as powerful a boon as it used to be.

[Guizao.4167]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Well that's the thing though, it doesn't matter vs. Cata. Current Cata is actually so overpowered that normal counterplay doesn't matter. There isn't time for it. If you don't hard pressure the Cata with massive amounts of consistent DPS pressure that doesn't relent even for a second, you'll never burn through its defensive CDs to create an opening for kill threat. Trying to dodge, kite, read what the Ele is doing and play wisely with your CDs is simply not an option. All you can do is wait for a situation where a team mate can help you + the Cata.

Cata isn't just overperforming, it's in an entirely different league of performance than other classes.

The problems with catalyst, imo, are the amount of non-telegraphed DPS skills, stability application, extra boons F5 and Fortified Earth. There are two things that will throw even a good cata out of balance: Blindness, interrupts and stealths. Currently catas do have their counterplays, but I think you're right, they are very oppressive to play against.

 

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Again the problem is that they are so strong right now, that there really isn't counterplay in the aspect that it doesn't matter if Spellbreakers play predictably. They have so much CC & DPS and sheer sustain that they can predictably walk into your face spamming skills and everything they do is on such a low ICD that they will eventually overpower the CDs of other classes and win, as they outsustain them while doing it.

Outplaying a good Spellbreaker is very difficult to do right now and it's generally something that you will lose the node trying to do because you can't stand on the node with the Spellbreaker. Everything about its design is really really overly bully for the conquest game mode. I often wonder if Full Counter should be counted as an invuln and make them lose node cap progress each time they use it. I'm not saying this is the best idea, but it would be one way of going about it.

I do believe the upcoming balance patch (02/14) should fix this. One thing to note is that you need to CC their healing if you're playing condi and dodge their F2 and don't trigger Full Counter. The rest of their kit is useless without those abilities.

[Dr Meta.3158]

On 2/12/2023 at 4:01 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

I fight Yerloqq all the time. He's good at the game, but I dodge his full counters and sometimes take fights off of him. Same for Tycura, I think. The name is familiar but I can't put a playstyle to it.

I usually only lose if I waste a defensive. The difficulty in fighting them is not due to the innate mechanics of spellbreaker being too strong. 

I don't think you fought Tycura. You'd remember that beating.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

On 2/12/2023 at 4:01 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

I fight Yerloqq all the time. He's good at the game, but I dodge his full counters and sometimes take fights off of him. Same for Tycura, I think. The name is familiar but I can't put a playstyle to it.

I usually only lose if I waste a defensive. The difficulty in fighting them is not due to the innate mechanics of spellbreaker being too strong. 

I love fighting his SpB on my power zerker. He's good people 💯

[Zuko.7132]

On 2/14/2023 at 9:10 AM, Waffles.5632 said:

FC is effectively an invul AFAIK so I agree with this change too. I think it would go a long way into making SB's think more when they use FC, as opposed to now where they just spam it more or less, especially when side-noding.

Unblockables work on fullcounter.

[Waffles.5632]

12 minutes ago, Zuko.7132 said:

Unblockables work on fullcounter.

I actually didn't know that ty because that does change things. So if you use an unblockable attack, does the FC still go off? Or like, does the warrior continue channeling FC?

Sorry a lot happens in pvp so it's hard to pay attention to specific interactions and such.

 

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Zuko.7132 said:

Unblockables work on fullcounter.

They do? But full counter is an evasion, so why do they work if there is no block?

[Zuko.7132]

12 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

They do? But full counter is an evasion, so why do they work if there is no block?

The evasion happens after the full counter is hit. It’s wonky. The unblockable will still trigger full counter but the damage and effects work. Dagger f1 into fullcounter is a common thing in spellbreaker duels.

[Mell.4873]

On 2/12/2023 at 1:42 PM, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Virtuoso is going to be meta, but not because of "1 stack of aegis once every 35s" (please). The changes to master of manipulation will do nothing.

Virtuoso is going to be meta because it will play like a deadeye, except it also strip boons and everything it does is also unblockable. Which, if you ask me, is going to be a huge problem

Both can be true at same time; Aegis means more Quickness for Virtuoso so you can get your burst off faster with just a simple Blink into a center of a fight.

[apharma.3741]

Yet if we're to believe some top players on EU virtuoso isn't that good and isn't going to be meta. Who'kitten thunk the class with inferior shatters to core, with big tells that are easy to dodge and worse damage going full bunker is in the same spot. It doesn't die easily and loses the node due to invuln and stealth. 

Also lol at the aegis on manipulations making it meta, someone clearly hasn't got a clue, you would never give up inspiration, blurred inscriptions etc for chaos. You wouldn't take chaos over illusions because of the shatter cool down minor and master of fragmentation. With fury and no precision it gets you a 60% chance to crit. On the off chance you land F1 it'll hit harder for very little investment.

You will see chrono played not virtuoso.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

FC turns the next hit into a 0 damage damage attack, basically like endure pain.

Just like endure pain, everything that isn't strictly power damage will still do things. Boonrips will boonrip, conditions will apply, it just so happen that CC won't rupt it because there's ALSO a stack of stab on top, but that is it.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

On 2/12/2023 at 12:03 AM, Ixl Super Eu Ixl.3259 said:

The manipulation change for virtuoso is tricky. On one hand, they are adding further virtuoso synergy towards chaos, and on the other hand that requires people to drop inspiration or a damaging trait line to run it. Either way it won't be a full improvement, having to give up sustain for a different sustain or give up damage completely to run both inspiration and chaos (the defensive lines). You will be fine. 

This 100%

As of right now damage + inspiration can barely scratch a few specs, even in zerker gear. You'd have to really squeeze the might from bountiful disillusionment and the extra quickness/dagger procs from aegis uptime for this to be a marked improvement over having two damage lines. 

[Waffles.5632]

15 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

FC turns the next hit into a 0 damage damage attack, basically like endure pain.

Just like endure pain, everything that isn't strictly power damage will still do things. Boonrips will boonrip, conditions will apply, it just so happen that CC won't rupt it because there's ALSO a stack of stab on top, but that is it.

ty very much, I never thought to view FC as an "endure pain" type of skill but now I can see it clearly. It's always been one of those skills that is just confusing in how it operates but you've cleared up a bunch of stuff for me with this post.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

And about the supposed "interaction between virtuoso and aegis", I want to remind you guys that virtuoso already dodges\blocks much more than once every 3s (which is the ICD for Psychic Riposte), so they're already squeezing every blade without any need for manipulations.

[Hotride.2187]

23 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

They do? But full counter is an evasion, so why do they work if there is no block?

Its an absorb that an unblockable goes through. Its not a block, as on-block traits don't trigger. There are evasion frames if it "connects" (if it absorbs an attack) during the retaliation animation. A single hit unblockable doesn't trigger FC and so there are no evade frames (assuming you hit with nothing else during the FC channel).

Simplest example, I mirror 1v1 a spb. They FC, I do breaching strike. I do dmg, FC doesn't trigger. I'm not even sure the channel continues after the unblockable hit goes through. I've never procced FC by an auto-attack after breaching strike. Though I rarely position in a way that would result in an auto connecting so I'm not sure.