The iterative process ruins this game potential

[Obtena.7952]

Businesses that don't evolve for conditions they encounter don't survive. Complain all you like but ... Anet are just trying to continue providing GW2 to customers. 

[Matt The Demon.6891]

16 hours ago, Artyport.2084 said:

This is like the 8th time you guys have changed how you release content. 
 

Your lack of consistency over the years makes it hard to trust this company. 
 

lack of time frames and committing to those time frames has lost a lot of trust from me. 
 

every year it’s something different . 
 

no expansion, living world, permanent living world, expansion, sagas, now mini expansions. 
 

This inability to keep a system is making it so that this game will never achieve the success it should have. 
 

This needs to be the last model for at least 4 years and you need to be consistent with it. It’s exhausting as someone who loves this game watching a company ruin it’s potential over and over again .

 

you created a great game just deliver content to it regularly.

 

The wheel has been invented.. push it 

 

I have played this game since gw1 beta. I want to see it thrive finally. Also the blog post was a great Example of bad marketing. There was literally nothing to get people excited and so many things that leave new and old players with questions and vague  answers and offered nothing to get excited about. 
 

also why did it take you this long to communicate that you are no longer doing living world. You clearly knew this was no longer a thing and just decided to be vague about it since the release of eod. 
 

 

Last I checked, they're not going to be mini expansions, they'll be expansion + former lws for one price which I do believe would technically be MORE content not less.  And pretty sure expansions were highly requested, lws1 model wasn't sustainable (every 2 weeks new stuff), lws 2-4 idk, and heard (take this with a grain of salt) that IBS wasn't completely their choice. The decision for more frequent expansions, putting lws into the expac and spreading content is in line with WoW and XIV, and is arguably a better rollout method than previous

[Ashantara.8731]

While I agree that the inconsistency in quality and release formats is annoying, I can only give you this one advice: go with the flow. 😉

[roederich.2716]

17 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Drop that project secretly some days later?

https://preview.redd.it/dfd5kgpa45ia1.png?width=324&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=cc3b5872abdf00c923b8d369af100c3bde9fcc81

+from https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/studio-update-guild-wars-2-in-2023/

in 2018 they announced alliances and dropped it some days later.
 

Now in studio update they only talk about „multiple updates for wvw“. The word alliances or next beta for alliances is nowhere to find. In roadmap not a single beta for the first half year now while they made so much wind last year that they would develope it for real now?

the unprofessional grouch twitch chat snipped tells nothing but its in developement“ and we all know what happend if he talks that swollen.

they postponed it into nirvana again.

problem in this company is they hardly finish and do what they say.

cornerstone… johanson before he left to amazon years ago: „ pvp is crucial for the growth of the game“. …….

if i was employee in that company and would get that much tossed around between projects i would just leave for the sake of my own health and well being.

[shrew.3059]

8 hours ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

It's Always funny how people come in a Forum where Players can Word their opinion about the Game and Talk about this game and demand absolute neutrality.

You Guys must have an interesting View of the world. I mean what If These running shoes don't hold Up to what the seller Said? You are probaly These people who buy stuff and Just trow it Out and buy something new, instead of contacting the company or writing a Reviews to Help Others.

At least this is what you are praying Here. Be quiet and move on.

The Same could be sayed about you. Why do you even Care about the stuff a Stranger Say's about gw2? Just be quiet and move on. 

People who don't Care whatsoever about what was Said or done would Just move on. So where are you Guys staying emotionally?

 

It’s weird to come to a forum, post an opinion about development processes you are unlikely to have eyes on, and then be surprised that people respond to the opinion. What did -you- expect would happen?

I’m not saying feedback is useless, but this feedback doesn’t seem like something ArenaNet can use to improve your experience because it seems to assume a level of knowledge and expertise beyond personal preference. Maybe they already agree with you but are hamstrung by processes and budget constraints you aren’t aware of. You don’t need to feel sorry for them, but maybe you aren’t in a position to give them constructive advice about their development process?

There are things I don’t prefer about this game, but those are largely idiosyncratic and I can’t claim they would make the game better for everyone. I try to charitably imagine what ArenaNet could do with my feedback and try not to get too worked up about their decisions.

[Firebeard.1746]

I think the reason why they keep changing their strategy is because they're struggling to understand what holds player engagement in light of their gameplay models. I'm guessing when they announced IBS they were looking at data and realized that players seemed to always come back for the next LW epsiode and figured they could focus on LW and gem store purchases would carry them. But then players got spooked because reasons and didn't feel there was much to look forward to and then they didn't know what to do. Then with this announcement, they probably looked at the numbers and were like "Wow all these old and new players came for the new expansion, maybe we should do expansions instead!" and now players are spooked for a different set of reasons. I agree they could do a beter job of selling things. I hope that they continue to balance building on systems they have as well as experimenting with new ones. Strikes, one of the most popular game modes, came about because of experimentation, but if they don't release enough content with existing systems, people will run out of things to do. 

Also this is better than what we had before imo. Living world was already effectively an expansion if you happened to miss the free windows on the episodes. I think this is healthier for start-up costs as long as they cap the number of expansions you need to get going. 

I actually liked IBS up until drizzlewood, but the feel was way different. I know achievement hunting players didn't appreciate it because it felt too repetitive. 

The only advice I can give them is to give us something cool to look forward to, and be as in-your-face with cool experiences as possible. GW2 was good beacuse it focused on all the pain points that MMOs had and actively worked to address them while giving players good experiences. I'm actually concerned that more recent content hasn't been as friendly in this regard and content creators that are enjoying core or previous expansions will get rude awakenings in EoD content. Also, they need to do more to encourage positive interactions in high-end PVE and in difficult content. If you're in a failing DE, the comments at the end are kind of awful and it's the antithesis of what they're tring to build. High-end PVE instanced content tends to get less newb friendly because super veterans tend to have 0 patience with anyone learning, they just want their gold. Other people as a means to loot kills games. That's the only thing WoW has given for the last few years and it's just steadily fallen apart. The social aspect has been getting worse year over year and I just can't stand it even though I thought dragonflight was good initially. 

 

They also need to figure out good ways to keep the population at healthy levels on all maps at some point in time. I'm afraid their current daily system won't scale as they add more maps. (i.e. gl if you want to do vision in about 3 years from now.)

Edited February 16, 2023 by Firebeard.1746

[Gorem.8104]

Considering one month into the what must have been an actual failed EoD release that only worked due to all the players who returned to the game for the living world return event - they announced the next expansion instead of a living world... 

 

I'm not entirely sure even Anet knows what they are doing anymore. They seem to be spitballing ideas and then just going with it. Knowing from past experiences, they won't listen to ANY feedback given to them here about it either. This is what is happening next in their "wheel of how we release content". 

 

I'd much rather they go back and fix IBS. Change it up, give us the missing five chapters and flesh out the story we currently have anyway. They need to re-design the story from IBS to EoD, both need a different approach by different writers as they both pale in comparison to the epic story telling of LW4. 

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

Yeah, I'm kind of sick and tired of this whole paradigm shift every year.  It's as though they make a new years resolution, then fail  to deliver.

I just want this time to be the last time they majorly change their content delivery structure. It went from "LW only!" to "LW will deliver expansion like content!" to "Expac then LW!" (Which they did for to the end of season 4), back to "LW will deliver expansion like content!" and then back to "Expac post LW!" halfway through IBS.  Now they have this new proposed model.

[Astralporing.1957]

14 hours ago, Baseleader.4128 said:

Except it doesn't work, which they clearly stated in the blogpost. It caused issues with keeping a consisten schedule of releasing content without crunching/burning out the developers. It meant we didn't have constistent balance updates and many more issues.

 

The Living world system was also absolutely terrible for marketing. A new expac is something that gets people hyped again and gets talked about on MMO sites. Living World Season 4 episode 1 dropping simply doesn't, even within the community. Living World season 4 was incredibly high quality and yet it seemed no one every really got hyped for a release like they did with expansions.

 

It was also a poor business idea. You gave away content for free to the Veteran players who are already invested in your game and probobly would pay 10 bucks for a season, while putting an extra financial hurdle for a new player who's interested in the game, a financial hurdle that wasnt always clear either which can alienate a player feeling like they got lied too.

All those points are very good indeed. Problem is, they are good from Anet's point of view, not from ours. Why? Because what you said means that if Anet wants to address those points, they'd have to do it by:

1. Delivering less content

2. Rebranding the same content differently (so, using "expansion" as a description of content we'd usually not call by that name)

3. Having us pay more for it.

Notice, how none of those points are positives from the point of view of an average player.

[Linken.6345]

5 hours ago, Urud.4925 said:

We are not sure that this was ArenaNet's decision. I suspect NcSoft pushed them to increase the revenue, since GW2 is the game with the lowest profit for NcSoft. We can buy skins and LW episodes with in-game gold in the end, and considering that the profit always increased after a new expansion, it's understandable that their pimp owner asks them to focus on expansions.

You do know that all the gems you buy with gold are paid for buy someone else buying gems with cash and exchanging it for gold right?

That is the only way the gem pool get replenished and gem to gold exchange dont rise into the Stratosphere.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Linken.6345

[Baseleader.4128]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

All those points are very good indeed. Problem is, they are good from Anet's point of view, not from ours. Why? Because what you said means that if Anet wants to address those points, they'd have to do it by:

1. Delivering less content

2. Rebranding the same content differently (so, using "expansion" as a description of content we'd usually not call by that name)

3. Having us pay more for it.

Notice, how none of those points are positives from the point of view of an average player.

You're not  wrong, I believe this is in a big way a business decision.

 

However I would say that a more consistent schedule of updates, and having teams work more permanently on certain aspects of the game are good. Also, better marketing and making it easier for newer players to pick the game up can grow the population of the game which does benefit us. THese big content droughts really hurt the game I think.

 

I do think the amount of content (over a 3y period) might be quite similar and could come at a slightly increased price which I get upsets people a bit but could simply be necessary for the studio. 

 

 

[araiya.5160]

On 2/15/2023 at 2:25 AM, Artyport.2084 said:

This is like the 8th time you guys have changed how you release content.

Don't expect that to change. I mean past performance is not necessarily indicative of the future, but let's be real. The good news is the game just keeps going and going even if it could be even better.

I read the studio update and just "meh" over the yada yadas and look at the near-term specifics. Next EoD chapter on the 28th with partial new map and rest of map within a few months after. Anything past that I figure is too fuzzy to really get excited about. I fully expect delays and changes in direction -- just seems to be how the company works... maybe too much turnover? I dunno. Still a great game though.

[araiya.5160]

Dupe post.

Edited February 16, 2023 by araiya.5160
Dupe post

[Tiviana.2650]

I actually like this ..

Spring Roadmap

The next chapter of Guild Wars 2: End of Dragons arrives on February 28. With familiar allies like Detective Rama and his hat at your side, you’ll travel to a new location in Cantha and come face-to-face with a deadly foe that resides deep within the Jade Sea. That storyline will conclude a few months later with an update that introduces additional playable space to the map, adds meta-events and boss encounters, and lays the groundwork for future to-be-announced adventures. Unlike a Living World release, all owners of Guild Wars 2: End of Dragons will gain access to this content, meaning there’s no pressure to log in to unlock it and no gem cost for missed story chapter unlocks.

 

Now if they get alliances going soon i will be ecstatic! 

[Mistwraithe.3106]

On 2/17/2023 at 3:13 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

All those points are very good indeed. Problem is, they are good from Anet's point of view, not from ours. Why? Because what you said means that if Anet wants to address those points, they'd have to do it by:

1. Delivering less content

2. Rebranding the same content differently (so, using "expansion" as a description of content we'd usually not call by that name)

3. Having us pay more for it.

Notice, how none of those points are positives from the point of view of an average player.

But that's because you have cherry picked the points which can be viewed as a negative (and you are speculating with #1 IMO, better funding could mean as much or even more content).

You could equally come up with a set of likely positive points:

1. Delivering higher quality content (because better funded)

2. Delivering more improvements to other game modes, QoL improvements, etc (because move dev time on these).

3. Delivering more consistent content (because better funded)

All of my three positive points are things that I've seen multiple posts requesting on these forums.

[Astralporing.1957]

46 minutes ago, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

But that's because you have cherry picked the points which can be viewed as a negative (and you are speculating with #1 IMO, better funding could mean as much or even more content).

You could equally come up with a set of likely positive points:

1. Delivering higher quality content (because better funded)

2. Delivering more improvements to other game modes, QoL improvements, etc (because move dev time on these).

3. Delivering more consistent content (because better funded)

All of my three positive points are things that I've seen multiple posts requesting on these forums.

Seriously, they already are struggling with the content as it is now - they straight out admitted it in that blog (even if they obfuscated it a bit using more vague wording). Spending dev resources on other stuff will take dev resources from other places, there's no way around it. And while impact of better funding might indeed help, it's not something that will come right away - and it's something that very much depends on player response to those changes being good before they get that funding.

I mean, in theory you can hope to get better work by first delivering less for greater price (and thus getting better overall net income), but that hardly ever works anywhere. It usually just sends you into a downward spiral. Unless Anet is not telling us something major, the news aren't very positive at all.

[Gorem.8104]

On 2/17/2023 at 1:53 AM, Baseleader.4128 said:

You're not  wrong, I believe this is in a big way a business decision.

 

However I would say that a more consistent schedule of updates, and having teams work more permanently on certain aspects of the game are good. Also, better marketing and making it easier for newer players to pick the game up can grow the population of the game which does benefit us. THese big content droughts really hurt the game I think.

 

I do think the amount of content (over a 3y period) might be quite similar and could come at a slightly increased price which I get upsets people a bit but could simply be necessary for the studio. 

 

 

 

Especially once you realise GW2's income for the company is a tiny fraction compared to what their other projects generates. 

I mean, are they doing this cause otherwise they'd have to shut the GW2 part of their studio down? Are jobs on the line? There is a lot we do not know. 

If they had stuck from something that worked from the start, the game would be so much better off and be more popular, but we have no idea what goes on behind the scenes for these forced decisions that feedback can't change. 

[Gorem.8104]

On 2/17/2023 at 4:19 AM, Tiviana.2650 said:

I actually like this ..

Spring Roadmap

The next chapter of Guild Wars 2: End of Dragons arrives on February 28. With familiar allies like Detective Rama and his hat at your side, you’ll travel to a new location in Cantha and come face-to-face with a deadly foe that resides deep within the Jade Sea. That storyline will conclude a few months later with an update that introduces additional playable space to the map, adds meta-events and boss encounters, and lays the groundwork for future to-be-announced adventures. Unlike a Living World release, all owners of Guild Wars 2: End of Dragons will gain access to this content, meaning there’s no pressure to log in to unlock it and no gem cost for missed story chapter unlocks.

 

Now if they get alliances going soon i will be ecstatic! 

 

But what about the sheer many of us that hated eod's story? More of the same of that terrible story written terribly won't translate into many sales of the product. I saw it all over peoples voices being silenced but the effects of the censorship is showing with GW2's decline making them have to change tactics once again. 

Most people disliked EoD's release and how the raid boss final meta could not be beaten by raiders until it was nerfed the first time, and most people disliked one of the major advertisement features of the expac was locked behind this. No idea why they didn't make it a story unlock like they should have. EoD when you talk to most people was a massive failure and the only reason it sold was because right before it came out, GW2 was at a high it hadn't seen in years with the Return to Living world FREE release event. 

 

If they in such a state that their usual free releases that bring the most players possible back to the game cannot keep the game alive, it really should be a red flag for us as to how things in the studio are going. 

[DarcShriek.5829]

This game is over ten years old.  Expectations and technologies change over time.  Anet must adapt, or die.  That is why many of the changes have occured.

[Ashantara.8731]

1 hour ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Most people disliked EoD's release and how the raid boss final meta could not be beaten by raiders until it was nerfed the first time

Though I raid on occasion, I wouldn't consider myself a raider -- and I remember doing the meta in an organized squad just fine before it was nerfed. And it was a fun challenge at the time.

1 hour ago, Gorem.8104 said:

But what about the sheer many of us that hated eod's story? More of the same of that terrible story written terribly [...]

You can dislike EoD's plot and the modern style of expression (I am not a fan of modern American speak in a fantasy game, either), but at least it was well written and compelling within its defined parameters.

I am still hoping for a Drowned Old Kaineng map and content that will take us away from all that annoying high-tech...

In any case, what I am not looking forward to is the return of the waiting game in between story chapters. I was thrilled when they announced the next expansion -- which we now know will not be what people had in mind when they read "expansion". Let's wait and see what we will actually get.
 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[Gorem.8104]

5 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Though I raid on occasion, I wouldn't consider myself a raider -- and I remember doing the meta in an organized squad just fine before it was nerfed. And it was a fun challenge at the time.

You can dislike EoD's plot and the modern style of expression (I am not a fan of modern American speak in a fantasy game, either), but at least it was well written and compelling within its defined parameters.

I am still hoping for a Drowned Old Kaineng map and content that will take us away from all that annoying high-tech...

In any case, what I am not looking forward to is the return of the waiting game in between story chapters. I was thrilled when they announced the next expansion -- which we now know will not be what people had in mind when they read "expansion". Let's wait and see what we will actually get.
 

It was 100% not completed once before the first nerf, or did you not play EoD on release? Raiders who were trying to hardcore do it failed. Only after the first nerf did it start to be defeated. 

[vares.8457]

7 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Most people disliked EoD's release and how the raid boss final meta could not be beaten by raiders until it was nerfed the first time

lol Soo Won is not a raid boss, that’s nonsense. and it was nerfed pretty quick because I had my first kill couple of days after launch and there were successful kills before me. If you had luck with RNG you had a kill. 
It’s pretty common to nerf encounters when they are too difficult at first, nothing unusual. 

Edited February 18, 2023 by vares.8457

[vares.8457]

17 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

It was 100% not completed once before the first nerf

You have a source for that? 

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

On 2/15/2023 at 4:08 PM, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

OP is not entirely wrong, though. Consistency has never been ANet's strong suit. As a member of the instanced content community (dungeons/fractals/raids/strike missions) in almost 11 years we've had 4 different versions of instanced (challenging) content. Dungeons were abandoned pretty quickly in favor of Fractals, but very few new Fractals have been released since then and on a very irregular schedule. Raids were introduced but a few years later they abandoned that as well. Now we have strike missions, and apparently they are still putting effort in Fractals (even though the last one was released 4 years ago, giving the strong impression Fractals had fallen to the wayside as well). Based on this history it's absolutely understandable people wonder how long Strike Missions will last and what the new iteration of instanced (challenging) content will be.

There hasn't been any consistency in ANet's communication methods either. They go back and forth between regular updates on future plans to just being silent. First they didn't want to do expansions, then they decided they would do expansions, and now that plan is being changed again in some way. Living World was the way to go for years (and even that has changed in its implementation, from temporary content releases to permanent content releases with a limited free availability) but apparently that isn't working for them anymore either. It's like they set out on a journey with only a vague idea of a destination in mind, taking to the road and seeing if it took them to a place that remotely resembles the destination they had in mind. Judging from the new plan, they still haven't arrived. 

All of this hasn't stopped me from playing and enjoying the game since its release. It hasn't stopped me from buying every deluxe version of the 3 expansions, nor has it stopped me from using the gemstore with real life money. But it also hasn't fooled me into thinking the studio has a clear plan for the game. It all feels very reactionary. Anyone with an objective view of the game can't deny that consistency has never been a staple of ANet's development of GW2. I'm the kind of person who will wait and see how things turn out. The latest roadmap doesn't make me feel one way or the other. It's a general outline of what they're planning for the foreseeable future, nothing more. Frankly, to me, it's a dud. ANet has done very well in creating a MMO that goes off the beaten path, but after almost 11 years of playing the one thing that is sadly missing is a clear vision. So I agree with OP that I wish this is the way forward and will consistently remain so, not that they find out in 2 or 3 years that this isn't working either and they're going to do it all different again, change their schedules, the nature of content releases and implement a 5th version of instanced content. It really does feel like they're trying to recreate a new wheel over and over again.

Time will tell.

 

Edit: also, shoes and cars don't make a very good analogy for a MMO.

Yes but with the content shift they also changed their target audience

Core was aimed on very casual players with at least season 2 and then HoT and raids we had the hardcore-gaming audience as target.  Especially the change on open world content was way to hard for just open world.

 

They knew it and with the next LW they pulled it back.

 

With PoF PvP and WvW was from the new elites/class design the focus while PvE was kept as it was.

LW S4 was the same

 

But then LWS5 was suddenly a never seen grindfest in GW2 they dropped the causal not on difficulty but on grind this time also they cut heavily back on cost by splitting the maps. This was Gw2s "Shadowlands" at the same time wows Shadowlands was running.

 

The new expansion haven't played through yet so I can't say anything about it.

 

But there basically 3 points to take with:

:

A)The initiate promise to not make content obsolete while you can't say it is to 100% broken it also not kept

B)The repeated changes certainly alienated players which also means players left.

C)With each new target audience an new vision of the game came a long with it including new design philosophies on specs and classes, which in result made an awful balance (and other problems on top of it)

Edited February 18, 2023 by Lord of the Fire.6870

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Gorem.8104 said:

It was 100% not completed once before the first nerf, or did you not play EoD on release? Raiders who were trying to hardcore do it failed. Only after the first nerf did it start to be defeated. 

When was the first nerf?

"Significantly increased the duration of the Exposed effect applied when breaking the defiance of the final boss of the Battle for the Jade Sea meta-event, as well as the 5 minibosses present during the encounter." on march 4?

While it was apparently still overly side-switchy until march 8: "Fixed a bug in which the final boss of the Battle for the Jade Sea meta-event was performing its bite attack more often than intended, including potentially chaining multiple bite sequences in a row." ?

There are videos with meta clears from march 2-6. So for now it looks like you're 100% making things up. Of course if I'm wrong here, feel free to point it out.