If you want to end the toxicity between try-hards and casuals, incorporate a tier system like fractals in strikes and raids.

[Phoenix.4593]

For the experienced players, casuals waste peoples time. For the casuals, try-hards are toxic gate keepers. Tiered difficulty would benefit everyone. The way the system is set up now, having success in raids and strikes requires asking favors of more experienced players. That is not in any way healthy for a game mode, and is one of the biggest weaknesses of GW2. 

[Dibit.6259]

Think this was the reason emboldened for raids was introduced. It gives those less experienced that extra boost to get through the content. However the rewards for emboldened are the same as normal so there's little incentive for people to go for normal mode or, for some, to try harder.

 

For strikes ibs has a timer tiered system where you get better rewards for doing it in less time. Eod strikes don't have this as far as I'm aware. Both have no enraged boss timer so people are able to spend more time in the fight if needed.

 

Main problem is people going in completely blind to the fight and are unprepared. There are many guides to fight mechanics, build set up and rotations etc out there but casuals either seem unaware or don't understand the importance to this preparation. This is where the more experienced players usually come in to help.

 

There needs to be a level of compromise to casuals and experienced players when it comes to end game content as well as a level of expectation. Which is probably why training lfg was introduced too. Its mostly becomes a bad situation if a casual new to the content joins a group looking for experienced players. They may argue there's never any training groups on lfg but it doesn't mean that it's a good idea for them to try and join a group looking for specific standards. There's plenty of guilds out there offering training to casuals/new players, they just might have to go around asking in game or via the forums. I only consider a player to be an elitist if they expect extreme expectations, people make mistakes, as long as it doesn't wipe or greatly grief the group and the run is smooth then I don't see the problem. This is a mmo so some patience is needed 😅

Edited May 14, 2023 by Dibit.6259
Typos

[Biziut.3594]

End toxicity with system like in fractals? In my 10 year gameplay I encountered more toxicity in fractals than in raids and strikes modes combined. From both ends. Toxic casuals wanting to be carried in the T4 or cm's and sneaking into exp runs , or toxic try hards that rage quited after failing even a little non lethal mechanic.

It would be good to end toxicity. But the problem is not the game. It is us, peoples that are playing this game imo.

[Hotride.2187]

Adding more difficulty levels is always a good thing. I doubt it will end the usual pve drama though.

[Cuks.8241]

5 hours ago, Phoenix.4593 said:

For the casuals, try-hards are toxic gate keepers.  

How can anyone gate keep anything? Where are those try hards standing in front of instance entrances keeping you from entering? 

Nothing against tiers but we already have emboldened, normal and cm. And early raid wings are very easy nowadays. 

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

3 hours ago, Dibit.6259 said:

 

Main problem is people going in completely blind to the fight and are unprepared. There are many guides to fight mechanics, build set up and rotations etc out there but casuals either seem unaware or don't understand the importance to this preparation. This is where the more experienced players usually come in to help.

Raiders have forgot that new players when they step in a new zone should be amazed and have a chill in their bone , going in something unknown . Not forced to read somewhere first (hence easy mode that should be created 10 years ago , but raiders didn't like that because it would devalue the Raid set  ) 😛

And when people  know that the "upper enchalon" from the usual LFR , consist of people demanding lucrative things in other MMOS (30k dps) , people choose to stay in the LFR , rather than move up 😛

 

brb

 

Spoiler

(Lets have an auto-lfg and keep the easy strikes and lets see (not locked mount in there again plz) , if  " the new raiders" keep the mistakes of the olds ones  , and if we need to put a nail on that instanced coffin for ever .We wouldnt need to transform the major population as general hostile MMo , where they kick people for not using Pots in NORMAL T4 fractals 😛

 

Come on old gg , we must create new modes for PvP , we cat wait for the Raiders to increase the population but keep the old lfg for selling .

We must create something like "Evolve 1-2" (1x player have a weak monster and sneak aways from the other 4x players  till he gets stronger . Or like "Natural Selection 2" , or generaly 5x open world monsters vs 5x players capture mode , with  a portal from the LA (like a festival - once per week , like the crab arena with obsacles, where the 5x monster players must get a power up(400 yards away) to unlock the 60% hp attack))

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[leila.7962]

It wouldn't solve the issue.. it's not uncommon to see people that should clearly be on T1 or T2 due to the builds/gear stats they use, amount of deaths, etc, being carried through T4.. They want to have the rewards from difficult scales but they don't really wanna try to step up to contribute like they are expected to.

If they were to add tiers on raids and strikes, it would just be really hard to fill a group to do it, no one wants to receive less rewards that suits their skill level, specially when there will prob be people that will carry them through. Why spend 3x times more time playing/wiping to get 3x less rewards when people can just be carried through on most things?

Anet always relied on more skilled people to always carry the casuals instead of let them struggle to get better..

Once, I had a talk to a player that was contributing little to almost nothing in this pug group, and I asked why couldn't he spend some time learning how to do better dps or to even learn more about his role before joining experienced groups. His answer was something like.. "I work 5 days a week, full time. I'm not gonna waste my free time doing that when I can just join and still get things done". My answer was, "So you expect other people to "waste" their time carrying you through so you don't feel like your time is wasted learning anything. So in other words, you waste other peoples time?" and his answer was like.. "Yea pretty much."

The problem is less experienced players with the same mindset as the guy I mentioned. That's where and why toxicity happens .. people with higher skill level want to play with their peers, while the casuals don't because it stresses them out to play with their peers.

The solution to the toxicity problem is harder than it seems.

[knives.6345]

21 minutes ago, leila.7962 said:

It wouldn't solve the issue.. it's not uncommon to see people that should clearly be on T1 or T2 due to the builds/gear stats they use, amount of deaths, etc, being carried through T4.. They want to have the rewards from difficult scales but they don't really wanna try to step up to contribute like they are expected to.

If they were to add tiers on raids and strikes, it would just be really hard to fill a group to do it, no one wants to receive less rewards that suits their skill level, specially when there will prob be people that will carry them through. Why spend 3x times more time playing/wiping to get 3x less rewards when people can just be carried through on most things?

Anet always relied on more skilled people to always carry the casuals instead of let them struggle to get better..

Once, I had a talk to a player that was contributing little to almost nothing in this pug group, and I asked why couldn't he spend some time learning how to do better dps or to even learn more about his role before joining experienced groups. His answer was something like.. "I work 5 days a week, full time. I'm not gonna waste my free time doing that when I can just join and still get things done". My answer was, "So you expect other people to "waste" their time carrying you through so you don't feel like your time is wasted learning anything. So in other words, you waste other peoples time?" and his answer was like.. "Yea pretty much."

The problem is less experienced players with the same mindset as the guy I mentioned. That's where and why toxicity happens .. people with higher skill level want to play with their peers, while the casuals don't because it stresses them out to play with their peers.

The solution to the toxicity problem is harder than it seems.

Yeah, seems like no one likes change.

If you look into the thread of make enemy AI smarter - almost all are against it. 

People saying that people will quit if things get harder, people saying they log in the game to "relax", there was someone even that told the thread to "get off your high horse" lol.

Anyway, people are against change because they like it easy. Casuals will almost always be carried. Experienced will almost always complain. There is really no solution that will eliminate this without alienating players. LFG works like 50% of the time - advertise the skills expected and hope for the best.

Welcome to real life GW2. lol

[Astralporing.1957]

The only solution that would work is to completely separate the modes meant for more casual and for hardcore audiences in such a way that one group would not have any significant reason to visit the other mode (unless they actually do like that kind of gameplay). As long as you put in hardcore content "baits" that are mean to bring in players that do not necessarily like that kind of playstyle, those kinds of players will continue to come. And in 9 out of 10 cases end up with very negative experience. At the same time, hardcore players will keep having to deal with those players that are there only to get something specific, but aren;t actually interested in content itself - which, again, most of the time will not leave any good memories.

Tiers are one of ways to that end, but only if (unlike with fractals) the design does not assume that everyone will keep going up the tiers. It would have to be designed around the assumption that most players will remain on lower ones forever. In short, casual players should not end up with feelings devs consider content meant for them as something only transitional, a mere path (or "stepping stone") towards the "real deal".

Notice, that this is exactly the opposite of the direction GW2 devs were going for the huge majority of the game's existence.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[shrew.3059]

While there are casuals who just want to be carried, there are an equal to greater number of casuals who, because they are casuals, don't know the encounters or even where to look them up. Someone who has researched an encounter and practiced their rotation is hardly a casual in the broadest sense and the wiki/metabattle shouldn't be considered required reading to play the game (though they are massively helpful). If people were more upfront, patient, and polite, none of this would be a problem; nobody owes you their time, and everyone was a beginner at some point.

[Einsof.1457]

There's no toxicity.  Those who claim there is  need a Boogeyman to blame rather than themselves for whatever is keeping them from doing the content. I've raided for years and I've never ever seen anything remotely toxic. I've never seen an example either. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Einsof.1457

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

I've seen less toxicity in PvP, WvW and Raids combined than in T1-3 Fractals. 
Eomboldened was introduced as a way to make Raids easier for new players, adding a tier system will bring the same results. Nothing.

8 hours ago, Phoenix.4593 said:

For the casuals, try-hards are toxic gate keepers. 

Honestly, this smells like someone got kicked from a group requiring experience for not having experience.

Also, saying that Strikes and Raids need Fractal like tiering and bringing gate keeping, try-hards and whatnot up makes me believe you've actually never played any Fractals beyond T1.

[kharmin.7683]

28 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

There's no toxicity.  Those who claim there is  need a Boogeyman to blame rather than themselves for whatever is keeping them from doing the content. I've raided for years and I've never ever seen anything remotely toxic. I've never seen an example either. 

Are you US or EU?  Curious, because I've seen threads that say that the communities vary between the two regions.

[FiveBunnies.5730]

If you want to end the toxicity between try-hards and casuals, I think it's a great help to be clear about your plans for the game.

For example, when I creating a group search for a fractal, I usually write like "play for fun" or "slow walking". And every game I play is so nice! Once four of us spent half an hour searching for hidden chests to help a fifth player get the achievement! It's so cute!

It may take me longer to get the group, but at least everyone in that group will know what they're waiting.

(Although I have to say that I haven't T4 yet. I feel good in T3 and really don't want to disturb cool T4 players.)

Edited May 14, 2023 by FiveBunnies.5730

[Sobx.1758]

9 hours ago, Phoenix.4593 said:

For the casuals, try-hards are toxic gatekeepers.

Nobody can somehow "gatekeep" you from making a squad for anyone you want.

9 hours ago, Phoenix.4593 said:

The way the system is set up now, having success in raids and strikes requires asking favors of more experienced players.

This is just not true unless you expect to know everything before starting. In which case you can read or watch guides available online.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, Phoenix.4593 said:

For the experienced players, casuals waste peoples time. For the casuals, try-hards are toxic gate keepers. Tiered difficulty would benefit everyone. The way the system is set up now, having success in raids and strikes requires asking favors of more experienced players. That is not in any way healthy for a game mode, and is one of the biggest weaknesses of GW2. 

You got this all wrong. How you choose to play the game determines the level of toxicity you encounter, regardless if you are a casual or a try hard. Irnoically, Tryhards encounter toic behaviour from casuals as well. It's simply a matter of people learning how to play so they can play how they want with people that share the same ideas. 

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Add gear inspect/trait inspect to players joining your squad or group.  This would allow group segregation to happen before wipes happen. Wipes raises the temperature of the group, increasing toxicity, then people start looking at metrics on what is causing the wipes. 

We already have segregated lfgs, if you want to not be a try hard, join training groups. The problem is when people do not self segregated, and it is found out mid pull, and manifests in multiple group wipes.

Like kitten, the earlier people can find a member who does not match the group dynamics, the less painful the removal will be. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Fractals have this unique trait of just being implemented so perfectly, yet also something ArenaNet never learned from, or put alot of time or resources into expanding; always just being treated as a sideshow despite being the main attraction of the game for huge chunks of the playerbase since only a year after launch.

 

By comparison, the encounter design in raids and strikes are good (mostly.. alot of IceBrood is lackluster). but the difficulty and reward systems are basically useless for any kind of progression, not only for those just getting into them but also those who have been doing them for a long time and seeking to move on to a harder challenge.

 

The End of Dragons strikes did help with some of this, but the binary difficulty of Challenge Motes being only "on or off" while Fractals have four tiers plus Challenge Mote (plus instabilities) really leaves a bad taste in your mouth and didn't keep you coming back to fights unless you're grinding something out since once you've mastered it that's it and the rewards aren't even worth repeating it outside of the dailies or weeklies.

 

I just wish the developers made more of an effort with high-level instanced content instead of just throwing darts at the wall and seeing which ones stick and just leaving the ones that fall off on the floor.

Edited May 14, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[IndigoSundown.5419]

I've got nothing against more tiers in instanced PvE group content.  However... the issue of "toxicity" arises frequently, despite that we have tiers in such content already (emboldened, easier and harder strikes, CM's).

 

The real issue is entitlement.  No tier system is going to eliminate the tendency towards people feeling entitled to get their way.  That applies whether that "way" involves being allowed into a group which will succeed regardless of one's contribution or lack of such, OR expecting that any group one happens to get into will be composed solely of GW2 experts.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

35 minutes ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

I've got nothing against more tiers in instanced PvE group content.  However... the issue of "toxicity" arises frequently, despite that we have tiers in such content already (emboldened, easier and harder strikes, CM's).

 

The real issue is entitlement.  No tier system is going to eliminate the tendency towards people feeling entitled to get their way.  That applies whether that "way" involves being allowed into a group which will succeed regardless of one's contribution or lack of such, OR expecting that any group one happens to get into will be composed solely of GW2 experts.

I do not think that is "entitlement" when you put up an lfg asking for people to be experts and expecting the only people who join are experts. Expecting people to be honest should not be considered a privilege, there need to be more tools to push players away from this behavior. But anet, has made it easier for player to take advantage of other players, rewarding those who are dishonest. 

And then we get post on this forum about afk farmer, win traders and speed hackers, do you not think this also a manifestation of the "screw the group, i got my rewards" mentality. Honestly when you cultivate a culture where dishonest people are rewarded, their behavior just get worses not better.

 

[Dibit.6259]

8 hours ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Raiders have forgot that new players when they step in a new zone should be amazed and have a chill in their bone , going in something unknown . Not forced to read somewhere first (hence easy mode that should be created 10 years ago , but raiders didn't like that because it would devalue the Raid set  ) 😛

And when people  know that the "upper enchalon" from the usual LFR , consist of people demanding lucrative things in other MMOS (30k dps) , people choose to stay in the LFR , rather than move up 😛

 

brb

 

  Reveal hidden contents

(Lets have an auto-lfg and keep the easy strikes and lets see (not locked mount in there again plz) , if  " the new raiders" keep the mistakes of the olds ones  , and if we need to put a nail on that instanced coffin for ever .We wouldnt need to transform the major population as general hostile MMo , where they kick people for not using Pots in NORMAL T4 fractals 😛

 

Come on old gg , we must create new modes for PvP , we cat wait for the Raiders to increase the population but keep the old lfg for selling .

We must create something like "Evolve 1-2" (1x player have a weak monster and sneak aways from the other 4x players  till he gets stronger . Or like "Natural Selection 2" , or generaly 5x open world monsters vs 5x players capture mode , with  a portal from the LA (like a festival - once per week , like the crab arena with obsacles, where the 5x monster players must get a power up(400 yards away) to unlock the 60% hp attack))

 

 

When raids were released they probably focused on the hard-core players who has already great experience with harder fractals where they learnt to optimize their builds and had time learn how to deal with the mechanics of the game. The definition of Casual and hardcore was probably more defined back then. Now the game has developed that casuals have more "accessibility" to the harder end game content, especially with the power creep, but may not understand the game enough to get to the point of how optimization works (how many people actually read all their weapon skills, traits and stats etc?) or understand the full scope on what they're trying to get into.

 

The game is constantly changing and players are having to adapt, e.g. the introduction to 5 man boons and getting rid of class unique buffs changed the raid squad formation. People need to constantly research, understand things and keep up to date in order make things easier and better for themselves.

 

The idea of preparing for raids etc is not unique to gw2. The preparation is there to try and make the "win" easier or in some cases obtainable, some of these bosses are literally a dps and/or mechanic check. A lot of experienced players put in the effort to provide the player base with the information it seems daft not to use it. I don't think doing some research is really gonna destroy the raid experience for a newbie, constantly failing or not getting a win may though.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Dibit.6259
Typos

[Astralporing.1957]

5 hours ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

I've got nothing against more tiers in instanced PvE group content.  However... the issue of "toxicity" arises frequently, despite that we have tiers in such content already (emboldened, easier and harder strikes, CM's).

 

The real issue is entitlement.  No tier system is going to eliminate the tendency towards people feeling entitled to get their way.  That applies whether that "way" involves being allowed into a group which will succeed regardless of one's contribution or lack of such, OR expecting that any group one happens to get into will be composed solely of GW2 experts.

It's not entitlement. Both groups' expectations are completely valid, the real issue is that Anet keeps insisting to  push groups with differing (and contrary) expectations in the same content. And that is never going to work.

[Sobx.1758]

29 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's not entitlement. Both groups' expectations are completely valid, the real issue is that Anet keeps insisting to  push groups with differing (and contrary) expectations in the same content. And that is never going to work.

The only clash there is, happens when any player joins a group with description they don't fit in. That's mostly motivated by the "I want to join any group whether anyone likes it or not and the group should change what they want to do according to MY wishes" attitude. Sure sounds like entitlement. Meanwhile any player can join or create any group they want and fit in and suddenly usually there's not much reason for the gears to grind.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Solution is easy

When i want party to guff around i type

->[chill] ibs5| roles

When i want experienced party i type

-> Ibs5| some li/kp/bkp| roles

When i want speedrun i type

->ibs5|300li+| roles

If you type :

-> Ibs5| roles

you will get mixed ppl with mixed goals

 

Learn how to properly tag your squad, or confirm with squad that no expectation, was an expectation

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Noah Salazar.5430

[IndigoSundown.5419]

7 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

I do not think that is "entitlement" when you put up an lfg asking for people to be experts and expecting the only people who join are experts. Expecting people to be honest should not be considered a privilege, there need to be more tools to push players away from this behavior. But anet, has made it easier for player to take advantage of other players, rewarding those who are dishonest. 

And then we get post on this forum about afk farmer, win traders and speed hackers, do you not think this also a manifestation of the "screw the group, i got my rewards" mentality. Honestly when you cultivate a culture where dishonest people are rewarded, their behavior just get worses not better.

 

 

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's not entitlement. Both groups' expectations are completely valid, the real issue is that Anet keeps insisting to  push groups with differing (and contrary) expectations in the same content. And that is never going to work.

 

To clarify, there is entitlement on both sides, but not in every circumstance.  Those who join "experienced" groups when they aren't feel entitled to complete the content.  Those who join groups with no such requirements, or who join training groups, and then miss and poan about the lack of knowledge/skill/whatever are likewise acting entitled.

 

As to ANet channeling both groups... since their actions speak to their wish that players be one big happy family, yeah, that is part of the problem.