WvW Players - What are your thoughts on Boon Strips for WvW?

[jaif.3518]

The biggest problem here are the "defensive " effects ... stability, aegis, reflects, and so on. Once you pass a threshold the only choice is a similar melee boonball. The game becomes a math and button-pressing competition reminiscent of pve, with little asymmetric counterplay.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 6/12/2023 at 5:11 PM, Floz.8904 said:

Straight up think this is a good change. It's encouraging a different playstyle and shaking the meta of necro scepter 3 up. You can still get equivalent rips with different builds.

Surprisingly, it sounds like >50% of players cant compete with organised guilds and even more surprisingly, people want PoF scourge back which literally had game breaking mechanics.

It shouldn't ever be an even application of boon and rips, much like cleanse and condi. There's a skill in building a boonball comp and executing it well, more so than throwing 3 shades at the enemy and relying on target cap loopholes to rip 15 boons.

Try it from this angel, how many classes/elites can throw out boons, now compare that to how many can remove/convert boons. That's the bigger issue. We are living in a boon spam meta age currently. All that means is stack more have more. That is not skillful play that's just blobbing.

[Exzen.2976]

Too many boons can be spammed on certain classes/builds, add boon durations stats on there and you've got yourself some builds that are virtually unkillable 1v1 and blobs/groups that are virtually unkillable in group fights. This is obviously where boon removal came in, essentially allowing a window of opportunity to kill these builds. If anything, access to boon removal should be increased in wvw and spread around the classes (no boon removal on ele rip) and skills - so it isn't all in a few op boon removal skills which require no skill to use. Having it more spread out but potentially lower amounts of boon removal per skill/trait would mean it would take more coordination in group fights (more skill based) and also would allow more balanced smaller scale fights. Classes that can spam permaboons on their own should probably be looked at though, as boons should also require some skill to apply (I.e. do I want to apply my defensive boons now, or should I wait until the enemy pushes/bursts). Also please look at cele stats, with less boon removal it's going to be disgusting.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Exzen.2976

[Leaa.2943]

The problem i see it is not so much if the boonstrips are to many or to few but boons it self have reached a ridiculous point where boonballs always have all boons all the time. For some reason Anet belive this is how you solve a problem, but instead they creating a even larger problem where wvw will be only zergs blobbing which usually happens at Prime in EU and some time outside but mostly at prime. And outside of that you have roamers, small groups and the like where the boonball is becomming obnoxious and unfun. To a point where you can not do much about them because a boonball have ALL boons ALL the time. 

 

It have become worse and worse and worse for each patch. At the same time conditions have also been worse and worse. And those conditions you need to cleanse fast such as imoba is cleansed amont the last which means you need to go through several cleanses to even get that one. And when you have there is so much imoba that you have 20 min added to you (hold your horses people the last one was a bit of a exageration so no need to hammer on the keyboard over it)

 

So we have too WAY to much boons in WvW and WAY to much conditions and boons you can deal with by stripping them off and conditions by cleansing which after this patch will become less. So it will be more unfun game play unless you are the prson who only log in to WvW during prime in EU then you probably will be ok because you will be the boonball anyway, but for those who do the smallscale or play outside of prime WvW will yet again take a step toward unfun, annoying and at point you just log out, because you can't deal with this kitten tonight. 

[61059C87-54DA-4B76-A4F9-0374BA3E5E27]

A few points and some logic that have not been mentioned.

Quickness (instant scaling), Might and Fury literally scale your sub groups (5 people) overall max damage output to be 50% up to 100-110% once stacks (Might and Fury) have built / maxed out.   See included video below.  Never in any MMORPG PvP game or even PvE game have I seen anywhere near 50% damage increase from one buff that can have 100% uptime on all classes (even a single class).  Can we all agree that offensive (not defensive) Boons are exceptionally powerful in WvW?   If you don't then please think of two equally skilled players (AI) playing, one playing with 33% extra damage and the other without; what do you think the match results would be?

The direct counter *full emphasis put on these two after mentioned words* to having those powerful buffs on your party  is Boon Corruption.     You want those nice boons to be on your group / yourself but they have to come with at least one drawback as strong or stronger as the Boon itself; this is the logical thinking that gave birth to the Boon / Condition system that has been in Guildwars for twenty years.

Please see that a whole yin / yang  game system (Boon / Boon Conversion) has been systematically changed by the removal of Boon Conversion skills from other classes.  This is the point of contention that I don't see everyone focusing on.

Boon Rip is not a counter, heck it is not even in the same game system of Boons / Corruptions.  When you Rip a Boon there is no detriment to running the Boon on that individual (even if the Boon Rip buffs the person that Ripped).  So when you are Buffed with Might you get a 5%-30% increase to damage but also risk the Boon being converted to Weakness - loosing 50% of your damage and Endurance regeneration for five seconds.  To me five seconds seems pretty paltry considering how many 100% uptime boons and cleanses there are (this is a whole other discussion that I won't touch here).  This after mentioned risk (the Boon being Converted) is the balance to running the Boon.

With the amount of 100% uptime Boons, how often they can be reapplied and by so many Professions / Specializations there needs to be substantially more Boon Conversion, not less.

What you see going on here with this latest patch is two boon conversion skills being removed from Necro supposedly because it does not fit Axe (then give it to some other weapon that fits it). An additional one of them that  is activated by a trait which is getting its cool down increased by 80%.  The Necro has been the premier class (along with Mesmer) of Boon Conversion within the twenty year old Boon / Condition system that Anet has stood by.


With the massive amount of Specializations (changes over the last two years) that can now apply Boons with 100% uptime.  There should be more classes with Boon Conversion / Boon Rip with the same Recharge times that match Boon application Recharge times; because this is quite frankly fair as can be.   Perhaps with the above we (the player base) can actually start having different group compositions other than the melee boon ball of death as the end all be all "meta".

P.S.  The current Boon system creates too large of a rift between being able to easily win and not being able to win, all player skill being equal.  This rift is literally offputting to anyone new to the game and I can assure you this is a contributing reason why a non subscription based WvW MMORPG has not gained new players in this mode. ( Anet should really scale this 50%-100% Boon damage output down (in the video) on something of the order of maximum of 25% (Quick, Fury, Might).  If you want longer battles that rely more on skill, endurance, working as a team, and skill management, this is more than likely the easiest way of implementing it.

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by 61059C87-54DA-4B76-A4F9-0374BA3E5E27
Just to clean up some stuff

[Sonork.2916]

I think every core class, through feats or skills, should have some access to boon-rips and anti stealth abilities.

[Dark.1605]

For me what I hate most in this current meta is effortless condi spam from Frost and Chaos Aura
this thing should be reworked 
I also want to add on that boon strip is nice to have over corruption 

[Kal Durak.2830]

I don't know, I CANNOT GET into the game!!!!

[blp.3489]

It is going to be interesting to see if Anet will get swayed by the lopsided results of this poll.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

ye i think we should double all self boon providing for every class, and give everyone permastability at 111111111111 spamming

long live king boonball! hail to the blobbering!

[DeceiverX.8361]

Can't vote because I need a more extreme neutral answer here and disagree on all five existing answers.

"All boons should be removed from the game."

[Pomdepin.7068]

I don't think boon strips and corruption are the real issue, again, boon application is. I think they should start balancing by drastically reducing the boon application, then check strips and corruptions.

 

Is it normal to be expecting to have max boon stacks and every single boon permanently? Maybe it's ok in PVE, but it's killing PVP and making balance hard.

[Xenesis.6389]

8 hours ago, Pomdepin.7068 said:

I don't think boon strips and corruption are the real issue, again, boon application is. I think they should start balancing by drastically reducing the boon application, then check strips and corruptions.

Is it normal to be expecting to have max boon stacks and every single boon permanently? Maybe it's ok in PVE, but it's killing PVP and making balance hard.

Apparently that's the way anet wants combat to be, everyone has all the boons on all the time. 🤷‍♂️

So their "balance" approach is to lower boon strip/corruption to the minimum, and then look at boon application performance. There is no actual 50/50 or 60/40 type of balance where strips are meant to keep up with applications, it's apparently meant to be one sided, like 99/1 times you're casting boons vs strips, and you now only have a small accidental chance to rip a boon, that you hope is stability, and that somehow messes the person up to get bombed to death. Cause a boon ball farming a lords room for 30mins isn't long enough. 🤷‍♂️

Balance might actually be easier for the devs cause they won't have to worry about balancing the counters, just the applications which is already a spam fest so not much else to add there, devs can plan their retirement from the balance team after this patch.

Boon application is already overwhelming, at this point they might as well take out strips and corruptions and do proper replacements in other areas for them on those professions/specs. 🤷‍♂️🍦

[Stand The Wall.6987]

i don't care about corrupt nerfs if they buff boon strips later on. except all this waiting is giving me constipation

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 6/18/2023 at 1:10 PM, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

i don't care about corrupt nerfs if they buff boon strips later on. except all this waiting is giving me constipation

I think some of the issues is that this patch was expected to be the later on side of the coin. 

Hope this helps: https://printablecouponsanddeals.com/Tag/kelloggs-frosted-mini-wheats-cereal-printable-coupon/

[Bluevan.9248]

since major boon strippers are necros this is direct nerf to them, right? if so then i dont see a problem here, since necros have too many tools to strip and corrupt boons. but something should be added to other professions as well. this is a wrong direction to complain about boon strips/corruptions being nerfed in wvw meaning only necros. what about other professions? if this is balance patch then it should even the numbers between them as well, not only necros being only boon strippers in the game. look at mesmers, they are 2nd after necros with boon strips. but how many mesmers you can see in the groups apart from them being pure buff sticks? 

thats why i dont like any answer in this poll. since they all dont reflect that major nerf will be to necros as god mode boon strippers/corruptors. my answer is nerf necros, but buff others so you could have some flexibility between professions to choose in group fights with boon stripping roles.

[Bluevan.9248]

On 6/17/2023 at 1:07 AM, 61059C87-54DA-4B76-A4F9-0374BA3E5E27 said:

A few points and some logic that have not been mentioned.

Quickness (instant scaling), Might and Fury literally scale your sub groups (5 people) overall max damage output to be 50% up to 100-110% once stacks (Might and Fury) have built / maxed out.   See included video below.  Never in any MMORPG PvP game or even PvE game have I seen anywhere near 50% damage increase from one buff that can have 100% uptime on all classes (even a single class).  Can we all agree that offensive (not defensive) Boons are exceptionally powerful in WvW?   If you don't then please think of two equally skilled players (AI) playing, one playing with 33% extra damage and the other without; what do you think the match results would be?

there is no alacrity in this video. all those boons make proper combined groups way too powerful. dont forget there are also defensive buffs which reduce incoming damage by 33% with barriers on top. also we have reflects and shields vs projectiles. but in general group fights arent that bad if ppl know what they do and have right builds/professions. this thread about necros being nerfed as boons strippers/corruptors and this is not that bad. but other professions should get something to compensate it

[Bluevan.9248]

On 6/11/2023 at 7:20 PM, Xenesis.6389 said:

Spoken like a dev who doesn't play wvw.

99% boon spam 1% boon removal = balance

Like I said this is what they're aiming for.

I'll be waiting for when these guilds get bored because there's no challenge and I'll be the first to say, I told you so.

did you count how many necros groups have in this video? so maybe its for good we have necros nerf on strips/corruptions, or you want more necros? btw they still die in group fights, so maybe balance isnt that bad? or if ppl die with boons up then boons application is broken? thats weird ppl complain here about roamers when wvw was made for group fights in the first place. like give me god mode class so i can fight solo or in small groups vs zergs. you still can do a lot vs zergs with smaller numbers if play properly

[61059C87-54DA-4B76-A4F9-0374BA3E5E27]

5 hours ago, Bluevan.9248 said:

there is no alacrity in this video. all those boons make proper combined groups way too powerful. dont forget there are also defensive buffs which reduce incoming damage by 33% with barriers on top. also we have reflects and shields vs projectiles. but in general group fights arent that bad if ppl know what they do and have right builds/professions. this thread about necros being nerfed as boons strippers/corruptors and this is not that bad. but other professions should get something to compensate it

Ok no alacrity in the video and your point is?  Yes I agree with you that all combined buffed make groups too powerful and the rift between groups with none or even one of the buffs make an unwinnable situation.  My whole post is about the "game system" and the "direct counter" to boons, is boon conversion; necro is loosing two of them this patch.   The whole game system of boons and conversion is there for a reason.  It creates a risk for running boons, this patch is vastly lessening any possible risk.  You don't just get to run 100-125% extra damage with no possible drawback; this is boon conversion (not strip).

To address "but in general group fights arent that bad if ppl know what they do and have right builds/professions." this is the 1000 lb elephant in the room.  You have to have run a certain builds / professions in your sub group to in order to compete.  This then translates in to less options of how to play WvW, which is not healthy for the game, the player base or fun.   With more boon conversion and strip this melee meta (driven by the boons) could be rendered considerably less effective (read options).

[TheGrimm.5624]

8 hours ago, Bluevan.9248 said:

since major boon strippers are necros this is direct nerf to them, right?

The poll is more across all classes. How does boon share stack and compare to it's counter of anti-boon currently even before we get to the changes to necro. With the last sets of nerfs to the anti-boon side of the equation the answers from the devs have been we were working on it, it's down the road. That's been something 3-4 balance patches. So now we come to the big one and they, just apply more nerf's to the anti-boon side. 

So they did include some commentary that the reason is they think it will create more melee large scale fights. When playing melee, this seems a bit reversed, at least to me. 

 

[prototypedragon.1406]

I would say that their are too many boon strips and we need to limit it down to one boon strip max per class with a 60 second cooldown😉 can't go against our overlords wishes now can we? Boons= skill 

[prototypedragon.1406]

Sarcasm aside either there needs to be more boon strips or anet needs to redesign boon strips to prioritize key boons so they don't just remove the last applied boons first, otherwise at most someone can strip boon wise would be swiftness, resolution , or fury, while protection stability regeneration and might are being protected by the cover boons coupled with their increased durations when wearing equipment that boosts concentration.

[Esufer.8762]

On 6/10/2023 at 10:33 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

"Getting boon stripped at range is not fun"

~ A Dev

tbf how else are we meant to pull people with Anet tags out of the centre of zergs 🤔

[Aeolus.3615]

PVE is perma boons w/o being removed players completelly carried with overperformance, so since WvW is tied to pve then it needs to work the same way, stack for massive  spam and boon overperformance.

I have been criticizing Anet since 2013/14 with the massive pushing towards boon spam idea was a fcking mistake... Anet keep enforcing it while it keeps ruining the game and creating balance issues for themselves.

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[Floz.8904]

On 6/15/2023 at 10:31 AM, Meva.8327 said:

I respectfully yet wholeheartedly disagee.

Boon rips are very situational and tactical. For example, you want to ensure you removed protection before your burst, or stability before your CC. On the other hand, getting your boons on is super simple: almost bolied down to smash buttons on cooldown.

Therefore, boon ripping builds are definitely FAR from unskilled. On the contrary, I would argue that they are the hardest to master.

I think skill ceiling is a whole different ball game. I guarantee you skill ceilings for classes like power scrapper are also difficult to attain.

Dps spelly, hard build - but because of positioning. Minstrel spelly v easy. Chrono is a v easy build. Scourge is a v easy build.

Coordinated rips is literally what guilds do. We coordinate cc and rips, then bomb a group and sustain through it.

Conversely quickness cata and firebrand are some of the hardest builds in the game. There is nuance to both and i guarantee you that picking up a scourge to play at a baseline level is alot easier than picking up a firebrand. Skill ceiling exists for all classes and playing boon uptime well is harder than throwing a meteor storm at a zerg.

I dont understand the arguments around us having more boon rips. The groups who are the boonballs are also the best rippers. Guilds double the rips of incoming clouds. Giving guilds an increase to that will just skew it even further and we'll find loopholes to cover the losses.

Guarantee that you introduce more rips, you stagnate the meta even more in the sense that a firebrand + rev will be essential. Currently, it's only fb is essential.