Will Relics invalidate legendary runes? [Merged]

[Astralporing.1957]

38 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

I think it will depend on the build.

Take the DH Trapper build. It uses trapper runes because of the special bonus. But the stats are crap for DH because they are condi stats and DH has traps based on power. With this expansion I will be able to get that bonus and pick the stats that are appropriate to my build. So in that case it's actually more powerful.

It's still not sure what bonuses you will be able to get on Relics. It's already been pointed out (with example of Thief relic) that Anet is not afraid to massively nerf some of those.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 hours ago, EphemeralWallaby.7643 said:

After reading that a couple of times, I think I understand where the argument relics are vertical progression comes from.  However, I disagree with that conclusion... at least in that as I understand them runes+relic will be no more a vertical progression than the current runes-only system is.  Currently at lvl 60+ a new player with their first character can slot superior runes, with some types gated behind expansions among other things, and players are free to chase the myriad of runes that aren't gated to them.  The runes+relic system sounds like it functions the same (quote from announcement: "Many of the relics that are available to players regardless of expansion ownership...").  If relics were only available to those purchasing soto and future expacs, I'd agree with them being called vertical progression, but that's not the case (even if relics wind up requiring lvl 80 to slot).  Obvs peeps disagree, but to me it's more a (needed and well-intentioned) revamp of a problematic rune system.

(Oh, fwiw I made all my legendary runes last weekend, and I'm still looking forward to the relics change.)

~EpWa

P.S. /fireaura

When the update for it all lands, if they remove the current feature of legendary runes and add it back in via another item, but with extra costs that then needs to be reacquired, then that is vertical progression. Whether Soto has to be bought or not is beside the point.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[The Boz.2038]

2 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Take the DH Trapper build. It uses trapper runes because of the special bonus. But the stats are crap for DH because they are condi stats and DH has traps based on power. With this expansion I will be able to get that bonus and pick the stats that are appropriate to my build. So in that case it's actually more powerful.

Alternatively, that particular relic effect gets deleted from the game, and everbody wins!

[Sreoom.3690]

From ANET's own words:

At Launch: Rune Rework
In the same spirit of opening more meaningful build choices, we’re excited to be streamlining the rune system with Guild Wars 2: Secrets of the Obscure. As they exist in the game today, runes have five tiers of relatively straightforward stat bonuses, and the sixth tier is a wild card that can offer additional bonuses or special effects. The wild card sixth tier arbitrarily linked two build components to a single choice. Keeping with the theme of our combat updates for the expansion, we’re splitting those into two separate choices to give players more meaningful control. With the first release on August 22, the sixth tier of each rune set will instead complete the stat bonuses associated with that rune set, and the additional special effects or conditional bonuses will be removed entirely.

But fear not—special bonus effects in combat aren’t just going away as a category! We’ve split them off into their own build component, so you can choose both the stats you want and which special effect is right for your build. 

So,, the 6th Tier is being removed from all Runes, thereby significantly changing the utility and value of any given Rune (not just Legendaries).

[idpersona.3810]

8 hours ago, Kalendil Istarion.4103 said:

Is the relic systema a character-system with unlocks that one you own the relic you can equip on every tab you want and it doesn't take any space?

6 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

That would be nice. But the whiners here would complain that it's not a free legendary,

Quoted both for context. Ignoring the condescending tone (of the second post), if this system unlocked all current runes and new runes had to be found/earned, I think that would work really well as a system. I don't believe there would be complaining if on the day relics rolled out, we had access to all relics we had the 6 rune bonus to.

Not speaking for everyone, but from all of the posts I've read, the problem isn't having to work for new stuff (relics). It's in losing an aspect of what legendary (and non legendary to a lesser extent) runes you've already collected currently do. The loss of work/time/gold that has already been grinded is the problem. 

Non-legendary example: I don't want to have to run more dungeons (for days?) for relics of the golemancer (on 2 characters) and then for several relics of the nightmare and then pay a small stockpile of gold (assuming they're buyable) for 15 relics of the scholar. All just to get back to the place I was the day before. I already put in that work. Re-doing it is the issue.

Edited July 11, 2023 by idpersona.3810

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

21 hours ago, idpersona.3810 said:

Not speaking for everyone, but from all of the posts I've read, the problem isn't having to work for new stuff (relics). It's in losing an aspect of what legendary (and non legendary to a lesser extent) runes you've already collected currently do. The loss of work/time/gold that has already been grinded is the problem. 

This. This right here is the issue. They appear to be taking something away and then adding it back in for extra costs to be spent on our part. This is antithetical to how GW2's gear system is presented to the public. This really screws over anyone who has Legendary Runes, or stock piles of runes in their storage. The leggy rune holders are an easier lift to address, as legendaries are explicitly not supposed to suffer from this sort of problem, and there is an interface to accommodate a solution.

FWIW, I am excited for the new system. It is going to be great for build crafting new ideas, but they really need to adequately address the legendary rune situation. The only way to truly do that is a new legendary relic item, or to add a relic interface to the legendary rune such that all relics are available.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Lan Deathrider.5910
typo

[Barraind.7324]

1 hour ago, idpersona.3810 said:

, if this system unlocked all current runes and new runes had to be found/earned, I think that would work really well as a system.

That would be an ideal implementation.

 

If its something that switches with build and/or equipment templates and everything that was already unlocked is unlocked, then I dont really care about unlocking new relics that arent derived from new runes, because that would be what you'd have to do if they just did the smart thing and made a new system for a new slot and didnt tie it to runes. 

The issue is having to buy and carry around multiple relics on every character.  I paid to not have to devote inventory space (and prior to legendary gear, extractors) for 6piece rune bonuses, in whatever form you want to call them. 

 

[Ashantara.8731]

2 hours ago, Sreoom.3690 said:

From ANET's own words:

At Launch: Rune Rework
In the same spirit of opening more meaningful build choices, we’re excited to be streamlining the rune system with Guild Wars 2: Secrets of the Obscure. As they exist in the game today, runes have five tiers of relatively straightforward stat bonuses, and the sixth tier is a wild card that can offer additional bonuses or special effects. The wild card sixth tier arbitrarily linked two build components to a single choice. Keeping with the theme of our combat updates for the expansion, we’re splitting those into two separate choices to give players more meaningful control. With the first release on August 22, the sixth tier of each rune set will instead complete the stat bonuses associated with that rune set, and the additional special effects or conditional bonuses will be removed entirely.

But fear not—special bonus effects in combat aren’t just going away as a category! We’ve split them off into their own build component, so you can choose both the stats you want and which special effect is right for your build. 

So,, the 6th Tier is being removed from all Runes, thereby significantly changing the utility and value of any given Rune (not just Legendaries).

No. As you quoted yourself, the sixth Rune tier will now complete the stat bonus combo, any additional bonuses are being split off into Relics.

[Mike.7983]

So still confused on item enhancement with the whole rune/relics, let's say I have 6 legendary runes, is it now 5 runes + relic or 6 runes + relic on top for gear enhancing.  If its 5+ relic they effectivily nulled the sixth legendary.

[Kulvar.1239]

36 minutes ago, Mike.7983 said:

So still confused on item enhancement with the whole rune/relics, let's say I have 6 legendary runes, is it now 5 runes + relic or 6 runes + relic on top for gear enhancing.  If its 5+ relic they effectivily nulled the sixth legendary.

6 runes (7 with breather) + 1 relic (work both on land and underwater \o/)

[Sreoom.3690]

55 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

No. As you quoted yourself, the sixth Rune tier will now complete the stat bonus combo, any additional bonuses are being split off into Relics.

I sit corrected  🙂 ....the special effect is what is being removed.  However, this still will have  an impact on all runes (not just legendaries)

Also, it is this special effect that drives the value of existing runes, so all runes will be devalued based on this change, not just Legendary runes.

[Gehenna.3625]

8 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's still not sure what bonuses you will be able to get on Relics. It's already been pointed out (with example of Thief relic) that Anet is not afraid to massively nerf some of those.

Sure, that's a fair point but that's unknown as of yet and it's just one example. In the end all I'm saying is that some builds will benefit from the new set up with relics when the bonus effect now comes with unfavorable stats. But I also realise that I have no idea what stat set runes will make it nor which relics will be available.

I'm sure there will be some more favourable combinations possible that are not available now. I'm just saying that breaking up the bonus and stats isn't exactly the same as it is now.

[Ashen.2907]

On 7/10/2023 at 11:21 AM, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

So you admit you’re making arguments in bad faith to misrepresent the situation. So to clarify before change we have 6 total bonuses and after we will have 6 total bonuses from Runes

Anet lists 7 bonuses or benefits, depending on one's preferred term, for runes. The fact that they list two such benefits on the sixth rune does not change the fact that ANet uses structure and terminology that defines them as two separate effects/benefits/bonuses.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

1 minute ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Anet lists 7 bonuses or benefits, depending on one's preferred term, for runes. The fact that they list two such benefits on the sixth rune does not change the fact that ANet uses structure and terminology that defines them as two separate effects/benefits/bonuses.

No they stated 6, 5 basic and 1 special/wildcard 

basic maths says 5+1 equals 6 

[Ashen.2907]

1 minute ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

No they stated 6, 5 basic and 1 special/wildcard 

basic maths says 5+1 equals 6 

Reread the tool tips on the runes. They list seven benefits. The structure used is taught in grammar school, usually by the third grade. It is absolutely definitive. Not at all interpretive. Six stat boosts plus one additional boost defined as a separate benefit from the stat boosts by the structure used in the definition. This is not a matter of opinion. ANet chooses to use English as their primary lannguage (admittedly less of a choice than a necessity considering their location). If you want them to use a different language with different structural rules...buy the company and insist that the creators learn a new language of your choice. Otherwise, their exact structural choices define runes as having seven benefits, two of which occur on the sixth rune.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

2 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Reread the tool tips on the runes. They list seven benefits. The structure used is taught in grammar school, usually by the third grade. It is absolutely definitive. Not at all interpretive. Six stat boosts plus one additional boost defined as a separate benefit from the stat boosts by the structure used in the definition. This is not a matter of opinion. ANet chooses to use English as their primary lannguage (admittedly less of a choice than a necessity considering their location). If you want them to use a different language with different structural rules...buy the company and insist that the creators learn a new language of your choice. Otherwise, their exact structural choices define runes as having seven benefits, two of which occur on the sixth rune.

The 6th bonus is a 6th bonus and anets specifically states “runes have five tiers of relatively straightforward stat bonuses, and the sixth tier is a wild card”

so 5+1=6 

Edited July 11, 2023 by BlaqueFyre.5678

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

Legendary Armory will loose functionality FOR ME. 
I can now get all available stat combo's with my armor, weapons, runes, sigils, trinket. ALL legendary
After the patch, I no longer can get ALL available stat combo's with the Legendary Armory since I need a relic.

Stop downplaying this fact. It is an insult for those that actually BELIEVED they never needed EVER to get an upgrade again after completing Legendary Runes. 

Nitpicking on EXACT terms is showing a MASSIVE disrespect of the fact we DO loose OVERALL functionality.

Like I said, sick and tired of people trying to downplay the actual loss and change here. STOP Trolling.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

Just now, Tuna Bandit.3786 said:

Legendary Armory will loose functionality FOR ME. 
I can now get all available stat combo's with my armor, weapons, runes, sigils, trinket. ALL legendary
After the patch, I no longer can get ALL available stat combo's with the Legendary Armory since I need a relic.

Stop downplaying this fact. It is an insult for those that actually BELIEVED they never needed EVER to get an upgrade again after completing Legendary Runes. 

Nitpicking on EXACT terms is showing a MASSIVE disrespect of the fact we DO loose OVERALL functionality.

Like I said, sick and tired of people trying to downplay the actual loss and change here. STOP Trolling.

Being melodramatic much? You don’t lose any functionality the functionality of legendary Runes was swapping freely between superior runes, that functionality still exist no matter how you try to mental gymnastics it. Superior/Legendary runes still have 6 bonuses,  you lose zero functionality from the Legendary runes… you actually gain an overall benefit now to get to have perfect stats with whatever bonuses Relics gives. 
 

your perceived slight doesn’t mean it’s real…

[Sreoom.3690]

@Ashen.2907 and @BlaqueFyre.5678

You guys are argung semantics...the 6th Tier bonus contains two elements (in it's current form)  The Stat Bonus AND a wild card bonus.

The expansion will surgically remove the Wild card bonus that will go to the Relic. (technically creating a 7th tier).

Sheesh, even ANET says Runes have 6 Tiers...so @Ashen.2907 your argument about current runes having 7 Tiers is incorrect.

[Ashantara.8731]

3 hours ago, Sreoom.3690 said:

I sit corrected  🙂 ....the special effect is what is being removed.  However, this still will have  an impact on all runes (not just legendaries)

Also, it is this special effect that drives the value of existing runes, so all runes will be devalued based on this change, not just Legendary runes.

Yes, if you so will, it will "devalue" Runes because their bonuses are being moved to Relics. So what? A year from now, no one will remember this pointless and silly thread, because the new system will be better and everyone will have adapted to it.

[Sreoom.3690]

16 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Yes, if you so will, it will "devalue" Runes because their bonuses are being moved to Relics. So what? A year from now, no one will remember this pointless and silly thread, because the new system will be better and everyone will have adapted to it.

A bit condesencing calling people expressing their concerns about loss of functionality (and the gold, time and effort needed to gain them) as silly and pointless.

[Ashantara.8731]

7 minutes ago, Sreoom.3690 said:

A bit condesencing calling people expressing their concerns about loss of functionality (and the gold, time and effort needed to gain them) as silly and pointless.

I called the discussion silly, not the people! Geez. Judging someone's actions under certain circumstance does not equal criticizing their personality and character. 🤦‍♀️

[Swoo.5079]

It does seem that the relic might not be a gear piece but an unlock.

In that case unlocking the current bonuses that will be removed and will be moved to a relic would be a perfect compensation.

Any new relic bonus not found in current runes would have to be unlocked. I would even be fine if bonuses that are substancially changed would have to be unlocked.

[idpersona.3810]

14 minutes ago, Swoo.5079 said:

It does seem that the relic might not be a gear piece but an unlock.

Hopefully. We should know more in a week.

14 minutes ago, Swoo.5079 said:

In that case unlocking the current bonuses that will be removed and will be moved to a relic would be a perfect compensation.

Any new relic bonus not found in current runes would have to be unlocked. I would even be fine if bonuses that are substancially changed would have to be unlocked.

Agreed. I think hunting down additional relics/bonuses could be a lot of fun. Or at least something to do that is a net benefit.
Again, the only hangup I would have with relic implementation is the possible loss of currently available abilities from the 6th rune. This applies to both legendary and non legendary holders. 

[Healix.5819]

28 minutes ago, Swoo.5079 said:

Any new relic bonus not found in current runes would have to be unlocked. I would even be fine if bonuses that are substancially changed would have to be unlocked.

Even if they gave everything, they would be level 60. Now they can do level 80 versions.