Lian.9275 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 3 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said: Hey all, I want to give you a quick response on this since it's of interest to so many of you! We're working on some more in-depth information to share with you, but in the meantime I can let you know that we are aware of your concerns that the Relics mechanic devalues Legendary Runes. We want to make sure we address those concerns, and we're finalizing a plan to compensate those of you who spent time and energy acquiring those Legendary Runes. We'll be back with more details soon--thank you all for your feedback on Secrets of the Obscure and your excitement for Tuesday's announcement! A response is always appreciated and I thank you for it, but the fact that it required a forum thread to address something as obvious as the complaints in this thread highlights is quite concerning. How could you not have foreseen that taking away the essence of why we craft legendary runes and redistributing that very thing in a new item that the current legendary runes owners do not possess - nor will be at the release of the expansion - would be a problem? I find that a truly baffling oversight. I hope that the compensation is worth as much as the function of having 6 legendary runes currently, anything below that is just plain theft. 15 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesg.7128 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 I can understand the concern here. Although I haven't made leg runes yet, I have made leg sigils and if some functionality was removed after what I spent on them I'd be annoyed too. One thing I haven't noticed being mentioned much if at all, what about all the regular runes that will also lose their effect? I have I think 18 characters, with some expensive runes selected specifically for that bonus effect. We get ONE free relic? So now I have to craft or grind another 17 relics to get the bonus effect I used to have? Is it Anet's position that the added flexibility of splitting the effect is an adequate recompense for this? 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictorLeal.4102 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 1 hour ago, Alice.4215 said: Give 1 Legendary Relic to everyone who has 6(or more) Legendary Runes. Given that it is a 6th Bonus that is involved here, it is only fitting to do so. Meaning that people who had less than 6 Legendary Runes would not be benefitting/losing out on the 6th bonus anyway. Else, everyone else has to craft the new Legendary Relic. Exactly! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PixelHero.5849 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 (edited) 13 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said: Hey all, I want to give you a quick response on this since it's of interest to so many of you! We're working on some more in-depth information to share with you, but in the meantime I can let you know that we are aware of your concerns that the Relics mechanic devalues Legendary Runes. We want to make sure we address those concerns, and we're finalizing a plan to compensate those of you who spent time and energy acquiring those Legendary Runes. We'll be back with more details soon--thank you all for your feedback on Secrets of the Obscure and your excitement for Tuesday's announcement! Thanks for being forthright and the future communication. I understand that you want to change the system, and that changing a system that is in use is tricky ground to get right. Now, of course I don't know what your plans are, and all of what follows may be irrelevant. Like many others, pretty much the entire reason I built Legendary Runes was for that final 6th effect, and the freedom to choose the effect that I wanted, whenever I wanted, in all my templates, on all my characters. With that in mind, I think that most of us are not really concerned that our Legendary Runes are worth less monetarily and looking for monetary compensation. In fact, most sources will tell you that Legendary Runes are already among the least significant legendaries, one of the ones to build last, because you already get the least for it. A full set is some 2.5k gold worth of materials. You would have to buy hundreds of runes (even thousands of the cheaper ones) to ever come close to even paying off one rune, let alone the full set. And yet some of us built them anyway. No, most of us are upset about potentially losing access to choosing that (now) relic effect. For many of us, we're past the point of the game where you invest in a build or armor set, past the point of having tangible goals in the game to work toward. We're at the point where we're pursuing intrinsic rewards that keep us coming back to the game day after day. For some, that's ushering newbies through raids. For some, that's teaching griffon flight mechanics. For some, it is endlessly tweaking and tinkering with our builds. Having the freedom to change traits, tweak runes (relics) and find hidden interactions is part of what keeps the game interesting and refreshing when you have played thousands of hours. That is what makes Legendary Runes so valuable to a subset of your playerbase. It isn't the monetary value saved, it's the ability to keep the game fresh and interesting so freely, so we aren't just playing the same way every day. Lowering the cost of Legendary Runes and monetarily compensating those of us who already built them doesn't "fix" the problem, which is the removal of that freedom that has been so liberating since the Armory was implemented. Since no mention was made of Legendary relics, many people are afraid that functionality isn't being preserved in any form, even with your mention of compensation. However, if by compensation you mean that you are preserving the behavior that we have enjoyed, then I know I will be ecstatic. Increased build freedom is a good thing for all, and if you are continuing our ability to endlessly tinker with our builds? No monetary compensation needed. I purposefully built one of the least valuable legendaries for the effect. If the effect is preserved, I'm happy. All that said, I look forward to your communication on future details! And please, if this has been a surprise for the studio and no plan was in place for this, a response of "Oops, we didn't realize this would take away the thing you enjoy and we didn't have Legendary Relics planned for SoTO, so we aren't sure it will make it in time, but we're committed to making it right." is OKAY. A forthright and honest course correction is still a valid option (and honestly, a refreshing one). If we have to wait until the first quarterly release, but in the end the current effect of being able to choose the stats and the effect is preserved, I think that'd probably be okay for most people here. Edited June 29, 2023 by PixelHero.5849 6 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorcher.6428 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said: Hey all, I want to give you a quick response on this since it's of interest to so many of you! We're working on some more in-depth information to share with you, but in the meantime I can let you know that we are aware of your concerns that the Relics mechanic devalues Legendary Runes. We want to make sure we address those concerns, and we're finalizing a plan to compensate those of you who spent time and energy acquiring those Legendary Runes. We'll be back with more details soon--thank you all for your feedback on Secrets of the Obscure and your excitement for Tuesday's announcement! While this is really generous, I don't think any compensation is needed. This new system will open up far more interesting build craft, not to mention making it easier for newer players to make better build choices. At least to me, that's compensation enough in itself. Even though I understand people's sense of invalidation or loss, I believe it's more of a perception issue than an actual problem in need of compensation. I have 6 legendary runes that was just finished up a month or so ago. And, I'm looking forward to interacting with collecting what I need for relics and playing the game to achieve it! I don't care if this is a hot take or what ever, I'm just throwing my opinion into the mix just like everyone else! Edit: Are people under the assumption that you need the same name rune and same name relic? Because from the way the post was worded, it sounded like that wasn't going to be the case. That we are getting more flexible options not less through decoupling the stats from the 'wild card' bonus effect(aka the current 6th rune set bonus). Either way, why would people ask for compensation already when we have basically no info on how the system will actually work? Edited June 29, 2023 by Scorcher.6428 additional info 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oCynder.5136 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 5 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said: Hey all, I want to give you a quick response on this since it's of interest to so many of you! We're working on some more in-depth information to share with you, but in the meantime I can let you know that we are aware of your concerns that the Relics mechanic devalues Legendary Runes. We want to make sure we address those concerns, and we're finalizing a plan to compensate those of you who spent time and energy acquiring those Legendary Runes. We'll be back with more details soon--thank you all for your feedback on Secrets of the Obscure and your excitement for Tuesday's announcement! I really love the use of legendary runes and crafted 6 for that 6th slot. Now it just feels like this is being stripped away and all that energy and time put into this just puts me off. I barely still playing this game as I have a few things left to do, although I have alot of achievemnts I can do. But... grinding on a limited time is what destroying the fun for this game. If y'all going to compensate, it better be worth it. But again, I don't want to GRIND the new features and relics. It just feels... awful. I love the convenience that we have currently as I can switch and tinker with my build. If there are plans to compensate with a Legendary Relic, maybe this wouldn't be so bad (but I still feel like my time/energy is wasted still). 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegeta.2563 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 5 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said: Hey all, I want to give you a quick response on this since it's of interest to so many of you! We're working on some more in-depth information to share with you, but in the meantime I can let you know that we are aware of your concerns that the Relics mechanic devalues Legendary Runes. We want to make sure we address those concerns, and we're finalizing a plan to compensate those of you who spent time and energy acquiring those Legendary Runes. We'll be back with more details soon--thank you all for your feedback on Secrets of the Obscure and your excitement for Tuesday's announcement! Just to give my 2 cents. The compensation cannot be just a "Pick another legendary from this box." I am not sure how Relics are going to work with underwater 6th bonus stat with the Aquabreather. If this is going to be a limit of 2 relics (1 for on land, 1 for underwater), then those that have made 6 or more runes would need to be mailed the relic(s) to make up for it. I seriously hope Legendary Relics were something already in the works before this release comes, otherwise what are you guys even bothering for? 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 5 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said: Hey all, I want to give you a quick response on this since it's of interest to so many of you! We're working on some more in-depth information to share with you, but in the meantime I can let you know that we are aware of your concerns that the Relics mechanic devalues Legendary Runes. We want to make sure we address those concerns, and we're finalizing a plan to compensate those of you who spent time and energy acquiring those Legendary Runes. We'll be back with more details soon--thank you all for your feedback on Secrets of the Obscure and your excitement for Tuesday's announcement! ❤️❤️❤️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotDelirium.7984 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 How do relics invalidate legendary runes when they aren't the same thing anymore? If leg runes still allow free switching of the rune then they still are optimized. If they want to give you all a legendary "relic" I think that's fine if they want to do that but why do you need to be compensated when something is changing not necessarily being taken way from you? 1 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibson.4036 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 6 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said: Hey all, I want to give you a quick response on this since it's of interest to so many of you! We're working on some more in-depth information to share with you, but in the meantime I can let you know that we are aware of your concerns that the Relics mechanic devalues Legendary Runes. We want to make sure we address those concerns, and we're finalizing a plan to compensate those of you who spent time and energy acquiring those Legendary Runes. We'll be back with more details soon--thank you all for your feedback on Secrets of the Obscure and your excitement for Tuesday's announcement! It’s not just legendary runes. It’s every player with a full set of runes. Taking away the bonus and telling us we need to get a new item to get the effect we already have for every character past the one free relic box is not acceptable. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yumi.5170 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 So I gave it some time to sink in.. and what the hell anet. Why? Why on earth do we need a new slot on gear. The current system was good enough. You know what you should have done? Legendary infusions. So you can swap them when we need too and not hoard 100 different versions of it for every class that needs them. 5 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idpersona.3810 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 29 minutes ago, HotDelirium.7984 said: How do relics invalidate legendary runes when they aren't the same thing anymore? If leg runes still allow free switching of the rune then they still are optimized. If they want to give you all a legendary "relic" I think that's fine if they want to do that but why do you need to be compensated when something is changing not necessarily being taken way from you? Because it is/would be taking away. 6 legendary runes right now let you switch around that 6th bonus (the most important one). We would no longer be able to switch around that 6th bonus since that functionality is being moved to relics. 6 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegeta.2563 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 5 minutes ago, HotDelirium.7984 said: How do relics invalidate legendary runes when they aren't the same thing anymore? If leg runes still allow free switching of the rune then they still are optimized. If they want to give you all a legendary "relic" I think that's fine if they want to do that but why do you need to be compensated when something is changing not necessarily being taken way from you? Just to give you a few examples. Here are some runes that share the same stats without the 6th bonus. (separated for each section). Superior Rune of Infiltration Superior Rune of the Spellbreaker Superior Rune of the Mesmer Superior Rune of the Chronomancer ------ Superior Rune of the Traveler Superior Rune of Leadership ------ Superior Rune of Divinity Superior Rune of the Revenant Superior Rune of the Zephyrite ------ Superior Rune of the Scholar Superior Rune of the Deadeye Superior Rune of the Ogre ------ Superior Rune of the Reaper Superior Rune of the Daredevil Superior Rune of the Scrapper Superior Rune of the Brawler Superior Rune of the Cavalier ------ Superior Rune of Vampirism Superior Rune of the Holosmith ------ Superior Rune of the Berserker Superior Rune of the Soulbeast Superior Rune of the Adventurer ------ Superior Rune of the Herald Superior Rune of Durability ------ Superior Rune of the Defender Superior Rune of the Guardian ------ Superior Rune of the Rebirth Superior Rune of Altruism Superior Rune of the Monk Superior Rune of the Water ------ Superior Rune of the Druid Superior Rune of the Flock ------ Superior Rune of the Undead Superior Rune of the Mirage ------ Superior Rune of Fireworks Superior Rune of Surging Superior Rune of the Pack ------ Superior Rune of Strength Superior Rune of the Privateer ------ Superior Rune of the Eagle Superior Rune of the Ranger ------ Superior Rune of Sanctuary Superior Rune of Radiance ------ Superior Rune of the Necromancer Superior Rune of Scavenging There might be more, but this is what I could pull up from wiki stat combos. This is 45 different runes being condensed down to 17. 7 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Vegeta.2563 said: Just to give you a few examples. Here are some runes that share the same stats without the 6th bonus. (separated for each section). Superior Rune of Infiltration Superior Rune of the Spellbreaker Superior Rune of the Mesmer Superior Rune of the Chronomancer ------ Superior Rune of the Traveler Superior Rune of Leadership ------ Superior Rune of Divinity Superior Rune of the Revenant Superior Rune of the Zephyrite ------ Superior Rune of the Scholar Superior Rune of the Deadeye Superior Rune of the Ogre ------ Superior Rune of the Reaper Superior Rune of the Daredevil Superior Rune of the Scrapper Superior Rune of the Brawler Superior Rune of the Cavalier ------ Superior Rune of Vampirism Superior Rune of the Holosmith ------ Superior Rune of the Berserker Superior Rune of the Soulbeast Superior Rune of the Adventurer ------ Superior Rune of the Herald Superior Rune of Durability ------ Superior Rune of the Defender Superior Rune of the Guardian ------ Superior Rune of the Rebirth Superior Rune of Altruism Superior Rune of the Monk Superior Rune of the Water ------ Superior Rune of the Druid Superior Rune of the Flock ------ Superior Rune of the Undead Superior Rune of the Mirage ------ Superior Rune of Fireworks Superior Rune of Surging Superior Rune of the Pack ------ Superior Rune of Strength Superior Rune of the Privateer ------ Superior Rune of the Eagle Superior Rune of the Ranger ------ Superior Rune of Sanctuary Superior Rune of Radiance ------ Superior Rune of the Necromancer Superior Rune of Scavenging There might be more, but this is what I could pull up from wiki stat combos. This is 45 different runes being condensed down to 17. Well the good part is that will have something to hunt in the next expansion . While your gear + runes , will unlock automatically each stat set from the 1sst day , without grinding like the pessants 😛 Edited June 29, 2023 by Killthehealersffs.8940 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 (edited) There are no sixth rune bonuses better for my characters' builds than those they are already using. This means that I will gain zero benefit from the relic system but each and every character will have its performance reduced. Reducing character performance relative to the PvE opposition while expecting the player to grind to reacquire parity with said opposition is functionally no better than raising the level and gearscore cap....something that GW (1&2) has always opposed. In fact it may be worse because games that increase their level cap with each expansions release do not generally reduce character performance relative to pre-expansion opposition. Regardless of whether a player spent hundreds of gold to create a single set of legendary runes to complete his character builds or spent hundreds of gold to purchase dozens of exotic runes for all of his characters' builds the relic system as described invalidates his efforts in much the same way. Edited June 29, 2023 by Ashen.2907 4 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalendil Istarion.4103 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 When I read about relics, I was interested. I could mix and match different bonuses that now we only have in some runes. But then I realized that I am going to loose the quick mix and match that i got when i made my seven legendary runes. I am going to look up them, craft them, guess where they can drop, etc. This is for me an step backwards as the jade bot. We design together the legendary armory. It was a successfull hit for programmers and players. I think the legendary armor should be improved, not become stangnant. We need a legendary aquabreather, we need to add the jade bot to the armory and a legendary relic should be implanted. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said: There are no sixth rune bonuses better for my characters' builds than those they are already using. This means that I will gain zero benefit from the relic system but each and every character will have its performance reduced. Reducing character performance relative to the PvE opposition while expecting the player to grind to reacquire parity with said opposition is functionally no better than raising the level and gearscore cap....something that GW (1&2) has always opposed. In fact it may be worse because games that increase their level cap with each expansions release do not generally reduce character performance relative to pre-expansion opposition. Regardless of whether a player spent hundreds of gold to create a single set of legendary runes to complete his character builds or spent hundreds of gold to purchase dozens of exotic runes for all of his characters' builds the relic system as described invalidates his efforts in much the same way. It also gives more options for other player . For example Shout-healing-Warrior to use runes with power +precision . Or allow the company each effect to have an eternal cd for overpowered/under elite specs (or have extra effect for Cores... like double cleanse shouts..) (Now that the legenderies are more available (and are devaluing the gathering options of each new expansion new stats set) , we should change the to a more minigame high risk/high reward , like the affixes from wow (you deal more damage , you get personal fractal flux) for instanced content , or deal less damage and allow to mount your pet for mobility gap (no need utilites to sucrifice...you sucrife the damage) + single pet damage ...leading to -10% damage , but faster recovery from the Captured Points in CM Soo-Won) Edited June 29, 2023 by Killthehealersffs.8940 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 1 minute ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said: It also gives more options for other player . For example Shout-healing-Warrior to use runes with power +precision . Or allow the company each effect to have an eternal cd for overpowered/under elite specs (or have extra effect for Cores... like double cleanse shouts..) (Now that the legenderies are more available (and are devaluing the gathering options of each new expansion new stats set) , we should change the to a more minigame high risk/high reward , like the affixes from wow (you deal more damage , you get personal fractal flux) for instanced content , or deal less damage and allow to mount your pet for mobility gap (no need utilites to sucrifice...you sucrife the damage) + single damage) Indeed. It is vertical progression. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 16 hours ago, WithoutAssumption.7936 said: Where did you come up with this idea? I specifically asked for their feelings on compensation options. Unanimously they said "no compensation can make this right". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 7 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said: Hey all, I want to give you a quick response on this since it's of interest to so many of you! We're working on some more in-depth information to share with you, but in the meantime I can let you know that we are aware of your concerns that the Relics mechanic devalues Legendary Runes. We want to make sure we address those concerns, and we're finalizing a plan to compensate those of you who spent time and energy acquiring those Legendary Runes. We'll be back with more details soon--thank you all for your feedback on Secrets of the Obscure and your excitement for Tuesday's announcement! That sounds suspiciously as if you didn't consider this angle when you were designing Relics, and are only now scrambling to find some kind of solution. If so, all i can say is that it was kind of sloppy... this issue should have been obvious from the moment you started thinking about Relic idea, and the solution should have been baked into the system from the start. 2 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nthmetal.9652 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 7 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said: Hey all, I want to give you a quick response on this since it's of interest to so many of you! We're working on some more in-depth information to share with you, but in the meantime I can let you know that we are aware of your concerns that the Relics mechanic devalues Legendary Runes. We want to make sure we address those concerns, and we're finalizing a plan to compensate those of you who spent time and energy acquiring those Legendary Runes. We'll be back with more details soon--thank you all for your feedback on Secrets of the Obscure and your excitement for Tuesday's announcement! Hello @ArenaNet Team.4819 and @Rubi Bayer.8493 - what you are promising here is actually presents to those, that already have everything. The functionality of legendary runes is NOT the 6th rune bonus. The functionality of runes, no matter if legendary or not, includes a bonus for the 6th rune. The players, who have legendary runes can be considered wealthy already, after all they were able to sink a lot of gold into runes. The players who don't have legendary runes can (at least on average) be considered less wealthy. The wealthy are considered to be compensated. The normal folks aren't. Thanks a lot. 3 1 1 17 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegeta.2563 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 10 minutes ago, nthmetal.9652 said: The players, who have legendary runes can be considered wealthy already, after all they were able to sink a lot of gold into runes. The players who don't have legendary runes can (at least on average) be considered less wealthy. The wealthy are considered to be compensated. The normal folks aren't. Thanks a lot. How wrong you are about that. The people that don't have the runes are the ones that don't think they are worth the materials and effort to craft them. All the materials you need to make them can be earned in game without spending any gold. Would it take you longer? Yes, but you don't need 1000's of gold to make a set of 6 as long as you have the materials that you can get from various of activities. Patience is the real currency. 3 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nthmetal.9652 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 10 minutes ago, Vegeta.2563 said: How wrong you are about that. The people that don't have the runes are the ones that don't think they are worth the materials and effort to craft them. and I am one of them. That doesn't mean I don't spend time in the game, yet still by some arbitrary measurement (sinking gold and time into legendary runes vs not doing so) I am determined to be a "lesser" player for some reason and recieve less compensation. It's just not fair toward the majority of players. I know, neither of us provided proof for the wealth, I am pretty sure Anet could easily figure it out, and I am pretty sure, if you look at the accoutn value of the people with legendary runes, they are all wealthy. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azakael.3019 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 29 minutes ago, nthmetal.9652 said: Hello @ArenaNet Team.4819 and @Rubi Bayer.8493 - what you are promising here is actually presents to those, that already have everything. The functionality of legendary runes is NOT the 6th rune bonus. The functionality of runes, no matter if legendary or not, includes a bonus for the 6th rune. Except it is. As someone else pointed out above, there are many, *many* Rune sets whose only difference is that 6th Rune Bonus. *That* is what I spent my time and gold grinding for. By removing that bonus, they are devaluing the Runes. Instead of my Legendary runes being able to be one of 99 different runes, it's now acting as one of maybe 33. And then I have to get a new item to restore the missing functionality by not having those 99 6th Rune bonuses. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harper.4173 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 A new system is great, improvements and upgrades are good. Invalidating player progress and a lot of hard work is well...less good. I understand they need to change it, but if it is changed it should be done in a way that doesn't basically delete the time and effort put in by some players into getting those Legendary Runes. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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