Will Relics invalidate legendary runes? [Merged]

[MithranArkanere.8957]

I wish they did this:

• Convert breathers into just skins you select in the outfit panel, with a way to choose whether you want to enable it and whether it should also replace the headgear of outfits while underwater (maybe also give outfit hats their own slot too).
• Make a legendary relic. It would have the same crafting recipe as legendary runes, just replacing the Gift of Runes for a similar gift that is just different by one material with a similar value, like Crystalline Dust instead of Ecto.
• For players who had already added a 7th legendary rune to their armory, replace that 7th legendary rune with the legendary relic.

This way we both get rid of the hassle of having a separate piece of armor and a rune that is only used underwater, and on launch, everyone who had a 7ths rune won't lose anything and be able to use the system to the full extent.

[Ashantara.8731]

8 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hey all, I want to give you a quick response on this since it's of interest to so many of you! We're working on some more in-depth information to share with you, but in the meantime I can let you know that we are aware of your concerns that the Relics mechanic devalues Legendary Runes. We want to make sure we address those concerns, and we're finalizing a plan to compensate those of you who spent time and energy acquiring those Legendary Runes.

Thanks for the response!

I would like to point out that "compensation" won't do if the runes become rendered useless (which your response suggests?).

It would be much appreciated if whatever special bonus relics will provide will be made available to owners of legendary runes through some means (e.g., a mastery that will add a customizable relic slot to our equipment).

[Vegeta.2563]

24 minutes ago, nthmetal.9652 said:

and I am one of them. That doesn't mean I don't spend time in the game, yet still by some arbitrary measurement (sinking gold and time into legendary runes vs not doing so) I am determined to be a "lesser" player for some reason and recieve less compensation. It's just not fair toward the majority of players.

Ok, so you are asking them to compensate you for not crafting legendary runes?  I'm not sure where you are going with this.  The compensation is supposed to be for people that have already crafted them, not just give people something free for "playing the game"

[T G.7496]

6 hours ago, Tulki.1458 said:

My first impression: You're invalidating part of a large gold sink in the game while also pushing ads to buy gold in the gem store. Purposeful or not, it's not a good look.

Yeah, though I'm just reiterating what's been said already, compensation is not what I'm looking for. I am looking to receive the exact same functionality that I crafted the runes for. That is, I expect nothing less than for the expansion to launch with a legendary relic slot that I get for free for having six legendary runes bound to my account. And no, not for a "discount" as compensation. Free, at launch (not in a quarterly update), full stop.

Revoking a legendary (and not just any legendary, but one of the most expensive ones to create if you craft all six) would be one of the worst precedents set in the game's history. I'll even be brutally honest here and say that your initial silence and the hesitance to just give players back what they already earned is the thing that stopped me from pre-ordering the expansion. I get it, you want relics in the game as another type of reward, and legendary runes plus the armory get in the way of that. But you already added them to the game, and you already made a contract with players that if they craft the legendary runes, they will have full account-wide freedom to swap rune set bonuses. You are now clawing that back for an expansion and asking people to earn it again, which violates the "no loot treadmill" promise of GW2. That on its own should have been a big enough problem for your game director to veto the feature - it's extremely weird that he didn't.

The grind to unlock them was so significant that any level of disrespect for players' time obtaining them is extremely damning and kinda deflates my desire to play the game any more. Because if you're willing to devalue legendaries to add a feature bullet to an expansion, what else are you willing to do, and why would I want to stick around and find out? This game is supposed to pride itself on never invalidating your progress. Now it is, and now it's going to compete with other games that do have vertical progression, and handle it better than your game does. Is that a good idea?

The nagging thing on my mind is why didn't you just move the stats over to gear instead? There was an elegant solution to decouple stats all this time, and it never required you to introduce another equipment slot. Hell, you could have done something even more interesting than relics by removing the stats from runes altogether, but lowering the set bonus to 2 or 3 runes instead, reducing the overall stat budget but allowing players to make more qualitative build decisions. Instead, we have a solution to a self-made problem being sold as an expansion feature.

This.

[Scorcher.6428]

2 hours ago, Vegeta.2563 said:

Just to give you a few examples.  Here are some runes that share the same stats without the 6th bonus.  (separated for each section).

Superior Rune of Infiltration
Superior Rune of the Spellbreaker
Superior Rune of the Mesmer
Superior Rune of the Chronomancer
------
Superior Rune of the Traveler
Superior Rune of Leadership
------
Superior Rune of Divinity
Superior Rune of the Revenant
Superior Rune of the Zephyrite
------
Superior Rune of the Scholar
Superior Rune of the Deadeye
Superior Rune of the Ogre
------
Superior Rune of the Reaper
Superior Rune of the Daredevil
Superior Rune of the Scrapper
Superior Rune of the Brawler
Superior Rune of the Cavalier
------
Superior Rune of Vampirism
Superior Rune of the Holosmith
------
Superior Rune of the Berserker
Superior Rune of the Soulbeast
Superior Rune of the Adventurer
------
Superior Rune of the Herald
Superior Rune of Durability
------
Superior Rune of the Defender
Superior Rune of the Guardian
------
Superior Rune of the Rebirth
Superior Rune of Altruism
Superior Rune of the Monk
Superior Rune of the Water
------
Superior Rune of the Druid
Superior Rune of the Flock
------
Superior Rune of the Undead
Superior Rune of the Mirage
------
Superior Rune of Fireworks
Superior Rune of Surging
Superior Rune of the Pack
------
Superior Rune of Strength
Superior Rune of the Privateer
------
Superior Rune of the Eagle
Superior Rune of the Ranger
------
Superior Rune of Sanctuary
Superior Rune of Radiance
------
Superior Rune of the Necromancer
Superior Rune of Scavenging

There might be more, but this is what I could pull up from wiki stat combos.  This is 45 different runes being condensed down to 17.

Aren't you forgetting that now you don't need 6 of the same rune? You can have any combination of runes now. And on top of that choose any of the 6th rune 'wild card' effects via the relic.

How is no one realising this?

[SourceOfTrippy.4207]

Side note:

I think the game has to much players influence involved rather then we are a playing a game that is 100% made by the game creator. I am not talking about this particular topic above. But it would make things so much more interesting  knowing we could not change what they give us. Feedback is great but I wonder how much of it they actually take in and implement. I think ideas from the company would flow more and the game would be twice as good. Its late don’t ask why I said this xd. 

[shinvold.3618]

12 minutes ago, Scorcher.6428 said:

Aren't you forgetting that now you don't need 6 of the same rune? You can have any combination of runes now. And on top of that choose any of the 6th rune 'wild card' effects via the relic.

How is no one realising this?

The rune combination you're talking about doesn't mean much.
Matching only with the same type of runes is much more beneficial for stat bonuses.
Even if a relic comes out, it will generally be set only with the same rune.

[The Boz.2038]

23 minutes ago, Scorcher.6428 said:

Aren't you forgetting that now you don't need 6 of the same rune? You can have any combination of runes now. And on top of that choose any of the 6th rune 'wild card' effects via the relic.

How is no one realising this?

Runes ramping up by sets has not been mentioned; no indication that it is going away at all.

It might be. It might not be. 

[FortyTwo.8697]

9 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hey all, I want to give you a quick response on this since it's of interest to so many of you! We're working on some more in-depth information to share with you, but in the meantime I can let you know that we are aware of your concerns that the Relics mechanic devalues Legendary Runes. We want to make sure we address those concerns, and we're finalizing a plan to compensate those of you who spent time and energy acquiring those Legendary Runes.

We'll be back with more details soon--thank you all for your feedback on Secrets of the Obscure and your excitement for Tuesday's announcement!

You respond to this but you ignore all the Necromancer complaints currently setting the forums on fire? You can't ignore us forever. At the very least acknowledge you've heard the feedback and are taking it into consideration. That is the LEAST you can do. Silence will only make people more angry. People want answers and they want them now.

[KawsMeCal.5923]

#GiveEveryoneWith6or7RunesAFreeLegendaryRelic ?

[The Boz.2038]

11 minutes ago, KawsMeCal.5923 said:

#GiveEveryoneWith6or7RunesAFreeLegendaryRelic ?

I can't wait until the people that don't have leggy runes find out that they need to buy the runes *and* the relic separately, while those that do don't, lol.

[Dayra.7405]

26 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I can't wait until the people that don't have leggy runes find out that they need to buy the runes *and* the relic separately, while those that do don't, lol.

Irrelevant, the number  of different runes will shrink and their price will collapse to NPC-value for all, not only for most as today.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Dayra.7405

[jamesg.7128]

30 minutes ago, Dayra.7405 said:

Irrelevant, the number  of different runes will shrink and their price will collapse to NPC-value for all, not only for most as today.

You're assuming the runes will stay the same. I believe it already says somewhere in the release that bonus effects will be replaced, but that doesn't mean that they will all be replaced in the same way.

For example I looked at these 3 since I currently use Scholar and Ogre -

Superior Rune of the Scholar
Superior Rune of the Deadeye
Superior Rune of the Ogre

The 6th bonus for Deadeye and Ogre is only an effect with no stat.

Scholar has +125 Ferocity plus an effect.

Therefore Scholar can stay as is, Ogre could get +125 Power and Deadeye +125 something else or maybe a combo of Power and Ferocity adding up to +125.

They can do this to all runes to make them unique again.

[Jarn.1726]

2 hours ago, nthmetal.9652 said:

and I am one of them. That doesn't mean I don't spend time in the game, yet still by some arbitrary measurement (sinking gold and time into legendary runes vs not doing so) I am determined to be a "lesser" player for some reason and recieve less compensation. It's just not fair toward the majority of players.

I know, neither of us provided proof for the wealth, I am pretty sure Anet could easily figure it out,  and I am pretty sure, if you look at the accoutn value of the people with legendary runes, they are all wealthy. 

I have 7 legendary runes.
let's talk some costs:
Costliest exotic rune used in a meta pve build: Torment at 4g a piece (Typically runes cost a lot less, some just a few silver)
So you can gear a character with those for 18g
So you could gear 13 builds for this absurdly high cost assumption and would then equal  a SINGLE legendary rune at 320g (80 builds at 4g per exo rune for 6 legendary runes)
A low extreme would be Eagle runes at ~11s. You can fully gear 480+ builds with those until you reach a single legendary rune. (2900 builds if compared to 6 legendary runes)

If we reduce the change in value to the 6th slot functionality, we would need to compare a SINGLE normal rune to a SINGLE legendary rune, so a gold factor of 80/2900 for torment/eagle.
The whole idea of "compensation" is to counteract the loss in value.
It is only natural that you would be compensated less if you have not lost a similar amount of value.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Jarn.1726

[vandrefalk.6823]

9 hours ago, Eclipsiste.3251 said:

This would create the worst precedent in this game: the possibility for you to remove a feature we obtained through long and costly farm only to force us to spend more hours and resources to obtain it again. What would be next? What feature could be removed / split into several grind-intensive items? This is definitely a dealbreaker to me. I'm withholding my preorder for the expansion until we have clear confirmation we won't lose one of the best features of the game only because you're looking for more ways to keep us playing.

People are getting their knickers in a twist, as if relic introduction will completely devalue the QoL of legendary runes. They won't, with legendary runes, you will still get stat-selectable bonuses for all your 6 runes - it's only that last, special bonus that gets moved from runes into the relic.

And they have now said they're looking into compensation for it. Most often you'd choose runes for their stat bonuses, over that 6th special effect anyway, people are just blowing this change way out of proportion. Especially when Anet have now said they will be compensating those with legendary runes, and it will probably be for those who had 6 or more legendary runes.

[Jarn.1726]

The main gripe for myself is the disruption of the "completeness".
I was done with farming random kitten for builds allover all the 9 classes.
The same level of "having it completed" and "not having to farm random kitten" can only be attained by a legendary relic.
I'm not really perturbed by the prospect of coughing up another 320 gold or similar (tho it feels bad to get your stuff devalued, but eh), but more by no legendary relic being announced at all.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Jarn.1726

[Cerberus.6402]

I should have grabbed popcorn

[misterman.1530]

12 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hey all, I want to give you a quick response on this since it's of interest to so many of you! We're working on some more in-depth information to share with you, but in the meantime I can let you know that we are aware of your concerns that the Relics mechanic devalues Legendary Runes. We want to make sure we address those concerns, and we're finalizing a plan to compensate those of you who spent time and energy acquiring those Legendary Runes.

We'll be back with more details soon--thank you all for your feedback on Secrets of the Obscure and your excitement for Tuesday's announcement!

How would you compensate for time spent grinding? I understand you can easily compensate the gold spent, but it's our time that's most precious. I think Leg Runes should become Relics: 6 runes = 6 Relics.

[stormemperor.3745]

12 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hey all, I want to give you a quick response on this since it's of interest to so many of you! We're working on some more in-depth information to share with you, but in the meantime I can let you know that we are aware of your concerns that the Relics mechanic devalues Legendary Runes. We want to make sure we address those concerns, and we're finalizing a plan to compensate those of you who spent time and energy acquiring those Legendary Runes.

We'll be back with more details soon--thank you all for your feedback on Secrets of the Obscure and your excitement for Tuesday's announcement!

Move 7th Legendary rune to relic slot and make it legendary relic

When in underwater make headgear stats and rune count as aquatic headgear.

If you have legendary headgear,  it will also make your aquatic headgear legendary.

After this change aquatic headgear will be only for swim speed infusion and armor skin.

[Rauderi.8706]

Short answer: no. 

You can still apply those runes to every character, and change their stats to fit your build at will. 

 

[Ynzalez.4081]

If legendary runes and later legendary sigils are going to be less useful are you planning to rework the recipe to make them cheaper to make as well?  It's not like runes have some kind of flair to them.  If I knew this was coming, I wouldn't have worked making 6 gifts of runes and the 31 gifts of craftsmanship.

[Ginko Biloba.3487]

Glad they are aware of the issue. The new system sounds good as it gives more flexibility. That said, I bought runes with cash to gems to gold method. I felt straight up scammed when I saw the announcement. I'm looking forward to see what they do.

[Katary.7096]

I want to take this opportunity to be the first to guess that the "compensation" is going to be a handful of copies of the "relic selection box", which every player will receive one of on launch, send via mail to accounts with legendary runes in their armory.

[soulknight.9620]

Its not economically wise to craft legendary runes and never was. The amount of runes you could get for that price is enough to gear up an army of toons. It was basically a price to "never think about runes again". And this is getting removed. Basically anet wants to remove part of the functionality of lege runes that were paid for. Imagine buying a car and a few months later the seller comes by ur house and takes ur tires off and says that you have to purchase them separately now.

The only thing that would actually make sense is to give everyone that had a set of 6-7 legendary runes on the date of expansion launch/announcement a free legendary relic. As for people that are going to craft lege runes after the launch of expac its their choice to make or skip them since they actually know what they are getting for that value. People who crafted lege runes prior to this announcement though that they invest into "never think about runes again" aspect for that specific price. 

[Pifil.5193]

1 hour ago, Jarn.1726 said:

The main gripe for myself is the disruption of the "completeness".
I was done with farming random kitten for builds allover all the 9 classes.
The same level of "having it completed" and "not having to farm random kitten" can only be attained by a legendary relic.
I'm not really perturbed by the prospect of coughing up another 320 gold or similar (tho it feels bad to get your stuff devalued, but eh), but more by no legendary relic being announced at all.

I don't feel they have any interest in adding a Legendary Relic right now. It feels to me that part of the reason for this change is to create a way for ArenaNet to give meaningful rewards for completing content:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/combat-in-guild-wars-2-secrets-of-the-obscure/

 

Quote

 

Generally, you’ll be able to get relics through crafting, instanced content like Fractals of the Mists and Strike Missions, reward tracks, achievements, and more. To celebrate the new system, we’ll distribute a relic selection box to all players at launch.

Guild Wars 2: Secrets of the Obscure owners can look forward to expansion-exclusive relics as well—some of these will become available at launch, with others to follow in subsequent releases.

 

Breaking off the sixth bonus into a new item gives them a nice carrot to dangle. I'd expect that account bound, non-crafted Relics unlocked from an achievement, for example, will be added to a vendor as an additional little gold sink.