DPS power creep is out of control - all content before IBS dies too fast to even be remotely fun

[Sweetbread.3678]

The power creep really is out of control. I guess this is what happens after 10 years of class balancing for a community that loses its mind if every nerf doesn't come with 15 "compensation" buffs.

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

It would be a design nightmare to properly nerf endgame gear, traits, mechanics, and all the synergies players have built with those options when they enter lower level zones, but I supposed it could be done in theory. 

Nerfing gear is easy - delete all 4 stat and cele. Bring GW2 back to what it was supposed to - if you wanted hybrid gear you had to compromise by mixing.

Traits and mechanics is a little harder. 

But hey at least we could start with the first point.

[Echostorm.9143]

17 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Wow the hyperbole.

I am not advocating for piano rotations, I hate them.

But I also think an action RPG where the enemies don't even present a meaningful challenge/obstacle to players might as well just be shovelware.

So I definitely don't believe in excusing design that creeps player power so much that they spend more time single-shotting enemies or killing them at range than actually engaging with the content.

And any game in which you have to literally demand players unequip gear to have anything resembling "engagement" is not very well designed.

Hyperbole? 

Only powergamers in raid gear are 1 shotting the weakest mobs under the best circumstances.  That's the top 1% of the pop.  Nobody is 1 shotting vets or champs or anything close to it.  The vast majority of the population isn't even doing 10k damage, hell I'm happy when I'm seeing 5-8k in lower fractals and open world metas. 

So no, it isn't unreasonable to ask that tiny population with the chip on their shoulder to switch a couple of their the legendary to Minstrels if they want to bring their DPS down instead of nerfing the other 99% of the game that actually needs the help.

I'm taken aback by the selfishness and narcissism of the tryhards in this game.

[Peter.3901]

12 hours ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

The power creep really is out of control. I guess this is what happens after 10 years of class balancing for a community that loses its mind if every nerf doesn't come with 15 "compensation" buffs.

I present you the untamed.

[Burnfall.9573]

"YOU Can't Solve A Problem With The Same Mind That Created It!"

Until there is a complete new Balance Team, a complete new Design Team....Until it happens, give your time and happiness to game companies who makes the effort to care

"When people keep showing their true colors; they are showing you that they were only using you...they are telling you that they were only using you"

 

--The Community is worthy of having a Balance Team and a Design Team who are not ''in it' for themselves but who are 'in it' to address our concerns, to make the effort to give us enjoyments and to give us healthy positive learning experiences--

Edited July 14, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Gaiawolf.8261]

16 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Nerfing gear is easy - delete all 4 stat and cele. Bring GW2 back to what it was supposed to - if you wanted hybrid gear you had to compromise by mixing.

Traits and mechanics is a little harder. 

But hey at least we could start with the first point.

It certainly is not that simple. A lot of skills and builds are balanced around four stat gear being available. These would all have to be retuned, which would take quite a bit of time and effort to get right. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Obtena.7952]

On 7/13/2023 at 3:41 PM, Kozumi.5816 said:

Looks like SotO is going to power creep the DPS even further.

I don't know if this game can handle 45k+ dps specs ;/

Based on what? So far, I see a new weapon per class and Relics. Neither of these things I hardly believe would powercreep anything 5K+ DPS ... but OK, apparently these sensational ideas justify reworking old content. What's funny to me is that the problem you talk about has nothing to do with the mobs themselves... but your solution to address it is to change EVERY mobs HP instead of nerfing the dodge DPS. 

Here is the facts ... there is almost no value in Anet reworking old content to have a equivalent level of 'difficulty' and it's a fallacy to think that the difficulty of encounters in this game are are simply adjusted with HP. I mean, sure, give Orr mobs 10 times their HP ... they still won't be harder than they are now. The problem is not addressed by simply adding HP to things (which is an absurd, impractical solution to begin with)

Edited July 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Kozumi.5816]

39 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Based on what?

50k DPS elementalists

[Obtena.7952]

12 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

50k DPS elementalists

Hold on ... so you think SotO is going to powercreep people to 45K DPS because of 50K DPS eles and SOMEHOW, that means the solution is that all old mobs get a HP boost? That's a pretty contrived bit of logic there. If history is any indicator, what you say makes no sense because high DPS eles never benefited my DPS playing any other class ... No matter.  The fact is that regardless of whatever performance levels Anet wants classes to have,  adding HP to old content isn't a sensible or practical solution. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

On 7/11/2023 at 12:33 PM, anbujackson.9564 said:

Like seriously? Wasnt the power mech era bs enough? You want more of that and worse?

Course they do, look at Quickness and alac. People wanted this, and Anet delivered. We just have to sacrifice so many things just to make this happen.

So now everyone can provide alac. Even though renegade can provide it easily with one press of a button, while classes like Scourge have to jump so many hoops just to barely make alac work. But people are happy, because despite some classes being able to provide alac better than others, at least there's class diversity. At least there's variety of ways to provide the same generic buff in the game.

Keep in mind, these are the same people who think Boons are getting out of control. They think the acceptable solution is to give every profession every boon in the game to fix the Boon duration issue.

But you know, there's no power creep. The problem is your gear. Just equip something worse to make the combat more artificiality challenging./S

Edited July 15, 2023 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267

[rotten.9753]

2 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

50k DPS elementalists

More like 45k, 50k+ are huge hitbox benchmarks that are only that high because of the Lightning Orb, which does almost 10k on its own. It will undoubtedly be gutted similar to the Meteor Shower or Glyph of Storms, as this kind of damage scaling based on hitbox size is something ANet doesn't like.

[anbujackson.9564]

14 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Based on what? So far, I see a new weapon per class and Relics. Neither of these things I hardly believe would powercreep anything 5K+ DPS ... but OK, apparently these sensational ideas justify reworking old content. What's funny to me is that the problem you talk about has nothing to do with the mobs themselves... but your solution to address it is to change EVERY mobs HP instead of nerfing the dodge DPS. 

Here is the facts ... there is almost no value in Anet reworking old content to have a equivalent level of 'difficulty' and it's a fallacy to think that the difficulty of encounters in this game are are simply adjusted with HP. I mean, sure, give Orr mobs 10 times their HP ... they still won't be harder than they are now. The problem is not addressed by simply adding HP to things (which is an absurd, impractical solution to begin with)

5k dps increase is 12,5 % of 40k. Thats a lot. And its not just ele that profits from the weapons (engineer, revenant, necro too). Even 2-3k is already a lot. But hey, apparently people are not satisfied with 40k anymore because other classes are already doing more.

 

[anbujackson.9564]

On 7/14/2023 at 3:07 PM, Echostorm.9143 said:

Hyperbole? 

Only powergamers in raid gear are 1 shotting the weakest mobs under the best circumstances.  That's the top 1% of the pop.  Nobody is 1 shotting vets or champs or anything close to it.  The vast majority of the population isn't even doing 10k damage, hell I'm happy when I'm seeing 5-8k in lower fractals and open world metas. 

So no, it isn't unreasonable to ask that tiny population with the chip on their shoulder to switch a couple of their the legendary to Minstrels if they want to bring their DPS down instead of nerfing the other 99% of the game that actually needs the help.

I'm taken aback by the selfishness and narcissism of the tryhards in this game.

Ok people with BiS gear (which is very easy and fast to get by the way) should nerf themself, so ANET can keep buffing the classes, so everyone can do 20k by just pressing 1 or 2 buttons or even with bad gear? Seriously?

Could we stop using new and average people as an excuse for everything? Getting really tired of it.

Edited July 15, 2023 by anbujackson.9564

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Ok people with BiS gear (which is very easy and fast to get by the way) should nerf themself, so ANET can keep buffing the classes, so everyone can do 20k by just pressing 1 or 2 buttons or even with bad gear? Seriously?

One option makes the game harder for everyone, whether they want it or not. The other option only makes the game harder for people who opt into that option. It should be obvious, which one is the objectively better option for everyone.

1 hour ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Could we stop using new and average people as an excuse for everything?

You do realize that average players are the vast majority of players, don't you? Changes that could cause them to depart (like raising the numbers of PvE beyond what they are comfortable with) is not in the interest of keeping the game as healthy as possible.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Hashberry.4510]

Jeez these poor average players (waves) need more help all the time I guess.

[Leo G.4501]

2 hours ago, Hashberry.4510 said:

Jeez these poor average players (waves) need more help all the time I guess.

Vs the poor elite maxed out legendary player who needs assistance in using the game's functions to get their desired gameplay experience? 

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Ok people with BiS gear (which is very easy and fast to get by the way) should nerf themself, so ANET can keep buffing the classes, so everyone can do 20k by just pressing 1 or 2 buttons or even with bad gear? Seriously?

Could we stop using new and average people as an excuse for everything? Getting really tired of it.

So ... here is the thing. "new and average people" is actually a VERY reasonable 'excuse' for 'everything' (i.e., OW content) because ... hold on ...

Most people fall in the 'new' or 'average' player category and ...

... there is content for the 'not new and not average' player to not feel like they are pwning everything with 1 or 2 buttons in the game. 

So the alternative question is ... why does Anet need to tune the WHOLE game to a subset of 'not new or average players' that likely do NOT make up the majority of people that play it?

Do you somehow feel that 'not new or average players' are ignored because there isn't an OW zone where they feel challenged? Do you think that OW zones is an appropriate place for 'not new or average players' to actually be challenged? Do you think that 'upping the HP' in older zones is the right answer to that challenge? You realize that is what the OP is suggesting right?

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Avatara.1042]

Irritable Bowel Syndrome?

[anbujackson.9564]

On 7/15/2023 at 10:31 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

So ... here is the thing. "new and average people" is actually a VERY reasonable 'excuse' for 'everything' (i.e., OW content) because ... hold on ...

Most people fall in the 'new' or 'average' player category and ...

... there is content for the 'not new and not average' player to not feel like they are pwning everything with 1 or 2 buttons in the game. 

So the alternative question is ... why does Anet need to tune the WHOLE game to a subset of 'not new or average players' that likely do NOT make up the majority of people that play it?

Do you somehow feel that 'not new or average players' are ignored because there isn't an OW zone where they feel challenged? Do you think that OW zones is an appropriate place for 'not new or average players' to actually be challenged? Do you think that 'upping the HP' in older zones is the right answer to that challenge? You realize that is what the OP is suggesting right?

 

I dont think the "elite/veterans" are ignored. 

One other thing: Whats the difference between the new/majority of the players today and 1, 2, 3 years ago? Like did new players need or ask for more damage 2 years ago/1 year ago/now? Is the "average casual" even aware of his/her damage? Most wont notice it anyway. The problem with clearing content isnt the needed damage, its the game mechanics. If they cant handle the mechanics, then they shoulnt be able to bruteforce the game with damage and the increasing class strength and skip those mechanics. End of story.

So again, why is every buff excused with accessibility? People didnt need it back then. New players started anyway, the majority kept playing however they wanted. What makes you think they need it now? Because raids are still not done by literally everyone or what? Because people still fail them? Thats just absurd. 

Is an education getting easier and easier because people still fail it? No lol, that would be horrible. 

[Leo G.4501]

57 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

 

So again, why is every buff excused with accessibility? People didnt need it back then. New players started anyway, the majority kept playing however they wanted. What makes you think they need it now? Because raids are still not done by literally everyone or what? Because people still fail them? Thats just absurd. 

Is an education getting easier and easier because people still fail it? No lol, that would be horrible. 

I feel the same way about all these quickness, alacrity, cast time reductions, ect changes. You know whose asking for them constantly... That new player is going to use that 3sec cast Churning Earth because it looks and sounds cool.

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

One other thing: Whats the difference between the new/majority of the players today and 1, 2, 3 years ago? Like did new players need or ask for more damage 2 years ago/1 year ago/now? Is the "average casual" even aware of his/her damage? Most wont notice it anyway. The problem with clearing content isnt the needed damage, its the game mechanics. If they cant handle the mechanics, then they shoulnt be able to bruteforce the game with damage and the increasing class strength and skip those mechanics. End of story.

Nothing is different but that doesn't change what I said right? The fact is simply here ... there isn't a reason to blame new and average players for the level of difficulty of 'everything' as you say (which is OW in this thread because that's what the OP is talking about). It simply makes sense that the difficulty level of OW is AROUND what these people would find comfortable with ... which is ALWAYS going to seem easy for experienced players.  

 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[MysteryDude.1572]

Thank god for powercreep .

all i want is the trash mobs, between me and whatever tedious achievments im doing , dead

noone has time for random griffon # 754 while the grind is on

one shot em all

 

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by MysteryDude.1572

[SlayerXX.7138]

On 7/14/2023 at 3:07 PM, Echostorm.9143 said:

Hyperbole? 

Only powergamers in raid gear are 1 shotting the weakest mobs under the best circumstances.  That's the top 1% of the pop.  Nobody is 1 shotting vets or champs or anything close to it.  The vast majority of the population isn't even doing 10k damage, hell I'm happy when I'm seeing 5-8k in lower fractals and open world metas. 

Yeah it is crazy how out of touch some people are. The whole damage system of GW 2 is a ton of multiplier, do everything that is not the best or second best choice and dps falls through the floor. God forbid a casual walks around in OW with some defensive stats and a weapon they like that isn't blessed by the meta. I don't get how people, who should understand that, thanks to their high investment in the game, fail to grasp that.

Lets have a look at the top benchmark: Deadeye with a gigantic 46k benchmark. Now lets equip Pistol, because they look cool, don't use consumables or stat infusion because they are costly, suddenly we drop to around 25k. Next lets have exotic gear. That is around a 5% stat change and lower weapon strength, so around a 10% damage loss. So we reached 22,5K damage on a golem with tons of buffs and condition, pure damage gear and meta traits to increase our damage. Drop below 75% HP? You lose 15% crit and potential 5% damage from scholar runes. 5 boons instead of 10, that is another 7.5% damage from a trait missing. It is thief so no reliance on weapon swap for dps, but that would be another factor for damage loss on other professions. Don't have full boon up time or have a defensive trait line or invest in some defensive stats you quickly drop to damage numbers you see in OW or low level fractals.
All these damage multiplier means that the big Power creep in the game barley reaches the wider player base. A gigantic jump of 4k dps with a snow crow build on a golem, may be not even noticeable on a unoptimized build. It may not affect a Player at all if they walk around with a core build or carry a weapon that is not used by meta builds.

Edit: A lot of power creep is also centered in Elite specs. Pretty Obvious in Daredevil and Spellbreaker. Power Daredevil has up to 10% and 15% multiplicative more damage then the next best core trait line you could take for a power build, that is an effective buff of 26.5%. Spell breaker has up to 250 extra Power, Precision and ferocity (750 extra offensive stats), up to 15% extra crit damage that is applied after ferocity, 10% damage buff that should be up 60% of the time and another 10% to boonless foes.

Edited July 18, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[Sweetbread.3678]

11 hours ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Yeah it is crazy how out of touch some people are. The whole damage system of GW 2 is a ton of multiplier, do everything that is not the best or second best choice and dps falls through the floor. God forbid a casual walks around in OW with some defensive stats and a weapon they like that isn't blessed by the meta. I don't get how people, who should understand that, thanks to their high investment in the game, fail to grasp that.

Yeah it's definitely like ARPG levels of multipliers going on, which makes the entire thing just a series of devastating trap choices for Casuals. Another huge issue is the amount of stats on gear and food. Like an unbuffed, untraited, naked character at 80 would have 1000 power; put them in full Berserker's ascended with mighty infusions, scholar runes, and power food buffs and that goes up to a whopping 2881. That wouldn't be as much of an issue if every stat combo had some baseline for all stats baked into it, but it's totally possible for someone that doesn't understand the game mechanics to be at an absurd 280% dps disadvantage from gear alone. Combine those two things and it's really easy to see how Anet ends up in a situation where they have to balance content for players barely putting out 3k dps, if that. Granted, yes, players should be rewarded for speccing and gearing correctly, but it would do them a lot of good to reduce the range of potential variance. Imo raising base stats while reducing those on gear, and reducing damage multipliers or at least keeping them confined to mandatory minor traits would be a good start.

[Hashberry.4510]

This is nuts. Why play the kitten game forever if there is no need to learn and enjoy mastering the combat system. Its Anet’s business if they want to capture a larger portion of the casual market, but at some point its not the same game anymore and there is no reason to stick around.